theory [OB] Unsurprisingly, Feather wants to talk Renarin

[Willow]

I was wondering something else as well. In part five, Renarin was surprised Jasnah didn't kill him, proving that his visions could be wrong. But didn't he figure that out at the end of the last book? He apparently saw all the armies fail, otherwise why would he be saying 'we're dead'. Yet a relatively large percentage of the armies survived, and none of the main characters died.

Also is there any speculation about how long before an event Renarin starts having visions about it? Did he start having visions about the events in Pailiah's temple even before Jasnah came back? Or did they start appearing when she showed up, or when all the various factions were starting to come together in Thaylen City?

When he went to the Oathgate to re-open it, he only seemed to have seen Teft 'appear' just before he actually does, but he knew about the Everstorm at least a few months in advance.

[Kasimir]

1 hour ago, Willow said:

I was wondering something else as well. In part five, Renarin was surprised Jasnah didn't kill him, proving that his visions could be wrong. But didn't he figure that out at the end of the last book? He apparently saw all the armies fail, otherwise why would he be saying 'we're dead'. Yet a relatively large percentage of the armies survived, and none of the main characters died.

I wondered about this too, but it's possible that what Renarin saw in WoR was just the return of the Everstorm and what looked like a pretty cataclysmic event (especially given he's not ignorant of Vorin theology), rather than literally, everyone dying. He panicked (who wouldn't?) and kept saying they were all dead. 

Part of me does wonder if some of Renarin's visions are literally true but neglect context. The one that was wrong was Jasnah killing him, but it seemed the other was right: he saw Dalinar kneel before Odium and Dalinar did in fact kneel. It's just that he didn't see what came after--Dalinar getting back on his feet and telling Odium just where he could stick that job offer. 

[Vulcronos]

I get a very Dunish feel from Renarin.  It looks like Odium's future vision is broken by him.  Either because he is outside it, or because he can also see the future.  In Mistborn two Atium burners counter each other.  I think Renarin functions that way as well.  His countdown to the Everstorm got Dalinar to the plains in time.

 

I also think his illumination is different than Shallan's.  Shallan lies.  I think Renarin sees and can display the truth.

 

I also think corruption is the wrong term for what happened to his Spren.  His Spren connections to Odium now.It has his power as well.  That's not corruption as long as Odium doesn't control it.  It just a new power source, and one that can predict the future.  

 

I am curious if his Spren lives in his heart because Passions come from the heart.

[Pattern]

About the Oathgate spren: Even if they are "lesser" spren (which I am not so certain of, I suspect the black spren being a big version of an inkspren and the white spren a big version of a willshaper spren, since both give the surge of transportation) their amount of Investiture should be way above Glys. I don't see a contradiction in the fact that Glys was "corrupted" before the Oathgatespren.

Now to the point why I post (I had to read the thread to look if someone else posted something like this meanwhile):

Last night I had that strange dream about Renarin sticking with Bridge 4. He won't be a proper Truthwatcher, so Bridge 4 is the right place for "misfits" like him. Nearly everyone in Bridge 4 ended up with a honorspren or being a squire (all but Rlain until now). In that dream, Renarin also bonded an honorspren, additionally to Glys.

@Ookla the Feathered, as our Renarin expert, what do you think about this? (I am also happy if you call it just a mad dream )

[Fulminato]

On 22/11/2017 at 1:27 PM, Kasimir said:

I wondered about this too, but it's possible that what Renarin saw in WoR was just the return of the Everstorm and what looked like a pretty cataclysmic event (especially given he's not ignorant of Vorin theology), rather than literally, everyone dying. He panicked (who wouldn't?) and kept saying they were all dead. 

Part of me does wonder if some of Renarin's visions are literally true but neglect context. The one that was wrong was Jasnah killing him, but it seemed the other was right: he saw Dalinar kneel before Odium and Dalinar did in fact kneel. It's just that he didn't see what came after--Dalinar getting back on his feet and telling Odium just where he could stick that job offer. 

no, he see the champion of odium (dalinar) scourge roashar

For he saw the future. He saw his father in black armor, a plague upon the land. He saw the Blackthorn return, a terrible scourge with nine shadows. Odium’s champion.
“He’s going to fall,” Renarin whispered. “He’s already fallen. He belongs to the enemy now. Dalinar Kholin … is no more.”

Oathbringer Chapter 118. "The Weight of It All"

Edited December 3, 2017 by Fulminato

[ScavellTane]

It's probably the same 'probable' event that Odium saw/instigated.

[StrikerEZ]

On 11/21/2017 at 8:04 PM, marianmi said:

There are 2 parts of a radiant's power:

* the physical representation of surges, which can be used the same by all orders that have it (e.g. skybreakers and windrunners use lashings the same; adhesion is used in the same way by bondsmiths and windrunners)

* some (non-physical?) effect of surges or combination of surges that results in some extra-power we see the radiants have (e.g. Kaladin creating the shield of windspren)

Bearing this in mind, Adolin has the surges of the Truthwathers and hence can do the same basic things. Corrupted higher level spren I think is quite different than corrupted low-level spren, since you have sentience and some kind of Intent in the mix. So even if the corruption seems to have changed some non-physical effects, the Intent of Glys seems to be the same as a Truthwatcher spren.

So I would say that Renarin is different than Truthwatchers in the sense that he can't do all the things a real Truthwather can do (which we don't know; maybe seeing the present/past, to be related to his seeing the future?), but he can do some other stuff instead (seeing the future).

Probably because seeing the future (via Odium) is changing the future, one of Odium's greatest advantages (being able to see further into the future than any other Shard) is negated - because his power can be used against him...

I think Renarin for now can only see the more likely future paths (like Jashnah killing him, Dalinar succumbing to Odium) but he could get better in the future at looking at more diverse paths events can follow.

Another interesting possibility is that Renarin sees what Odium sees/thinks the future holds, so he can effectively be a spy for the KR against Odium.

 

I just want to say that Kal's use of Adhesion (aka The Surge of Pressure and Vaccum) with the windspren was actually very physical. All he was doing was changin the air pressure around himself so that the storm's winds couldn't affect him.

[hypatia]

@ScavellTane

That's what I thought, too.

Renarin doesn't see the future like Odium, not even like Mr T with many possibilities and comes to conclusions.

He just fortells special events someone else thinks will happen.

I think he is something like a spy inside of Odium's future telling and perhaps even the one who is therefore able to prevent this possible future Odium is trying to gain.

This would also match Sja-anat's title "Taker of Secrets".

As for Sja-anat and Glys - she isn't only a Corruptor but also a Creator.

She corrupts the children/spren of Honor and Cultivation but her own creations are the ones who are called "her beloved children" in the picture.

Now if Glys really is her "son" , perhaps he isn't a corrupted spren, more something entirely new.

Edited December 5, 2017 by hypatia

[Steeldancer]

I would like to ask a question. 

WHAT THE CRAP DID RENARIN DO TO ATTRACT GLYS?????????????

[Song]

On 12/5/2017 at 5:14 AM, Steeldancer said:

I would like to ask a question. 

WHAT THE CRAP DID RENARIN DO TO ATTRACT GLYS?????????????

I have a theory

Renarin is bright and scholarly and caring and honest. We don't know that much about Truthwatcher, but I suspect those characteristics would be attractive to a Truthwatcher spren- given what we know of the order.

But he is also incredibly insecure, and doesn't fit in to his culture in a number of ways. I can imagine a mostly mindless spren who knows there is something wrong with them but doesn't know why would be drawn to that.

 

On 11/18/2017 at 9:45 PM, Ookla the Feathered said:

I feel like Renarin might actually make a good champion against Odium, actually. I think with his surges and Stormlight, he'd be a formidable human foe, but more importantly, as Taravangian found out, there's something about Renarin that Odium doesn't seem to be able to predict. The Diagram is flawed in a way that Renarin Kholin has something to do with. 

I agree. None of his numerous strength would be valued by Odium, so he would be easily underestimated. I have always got a real David (verses Goliath) vibe from Renarin, particularly with his willingness to throw himself in harm' way for others. 

[poordecision]

Ok, this is my first or 2nd post here, go easy.

1)When Jasnah goes to the temple, she knows something is wrong, and knows that Glys is wrong. She knows what the spren should look like, and glys is wrong. Renarin is waiting to get killed and hes confused. He's is basically "bugged". What he knows the unmade gets to know, and the unmade corrupts his vision. he is the unwitting traitor.

2)After, she does "deus ex machina" cleansing, Renarin rolls out and kicks chull. So Glys got Corrrupted, but Jasnah fixs glys and the bond. Renarin is a good choice because hes quiet, introverted, scared of being different, and hates himself anyway. Furthermore, investiture, nahel bond spren, are attracted to broken people. The bond/investiture "fills the cracks" in their mind/spirit. I'm sure someone could describe it more eloquently...

[Necessary Eagle]

@poordecision As far as I can tell, Glys isn't "cleansed" at all. He's still corrupted, Renarin still might be a Voidbinder/Surgebinder hybrid. The only thing that changed is that Jasnah decided not to go through with killing him.

Glys seems to be on Honor's side even though he's corrupted. This may be because Sja-Anat is trying to defect, or maybe he chose out of his own free will, I have no idea. He's kind of a foil to Malata's spren Spark, a bondspren that is perfectly okay siding with Odium.