theory [OB] Unsurprisingly, Feather wants to talk Renarin

[Blazenella]

Or, better yet... 

GUIDANCE IS HOID!!!

I mean he has been running around collecting pieces of shards, including a Nahel bond now, so you never know.

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Or, better yet... 

GUIDANCE IS HOID!!!

I mean he has been running around collecting pieces of shards, including a Nahel bond now, so you never know.

I... don't think he's at shard-level of power. Yet.

Yet.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Leyrann

[WhiteLeeopard]

I'm sure Renarin will in some ways stabilize a lot after OB. His family knows the truth, and they embrace him anyway. That will lift an unimaginable weight from him. All the darkness in the world is much easier to face with people that have your back. Other monarchs and morons will make trouble, but they will likely stand with Renarin through it all.

Unoficial Kholin motto: Family above gods  

On a more somber tone though, seems that to be a living Kholin you need to be a star. Elhokar was becoming good, possibly even great. But apparently thats not enough in Roshar if your surname is Kholin . Current Kholins:

• Dalinar, with 3 gods fighting over who gets him, who was first a man who could defeat an army on his own, and now is most likely a Splinter of Honor
• Jasnah, greatest scholar in Roshar, most intelligent person in Roshar, most badass woman in Roshar
• Navani, genius fabrician despite her claims otherwise, amazing organizer, great politician
• Adolin, best swordsman in Alethkar (Roshar?), one of the best tacticians, great leader and commander, and capable of inspiring anyone
• Renarin, first person to bond a corrupted spren and demonstrate he can still be a Knight Radiant, and likely a key in Odium's future downfall

Maybe they should consider sending Elhokar's son to grow up elsewhere...as with those requisites to be a living Kholin the poor kid has it tough.

[PatronOfRot]

21 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

A uniqueness in appearance is something that all Shardblades share. They're all very distinctive. Though the forged folds style could be significant, it could also just be the way that the Glysblade looks. It could be the bands of corruption mixed with regular spren power. 

I'm liking more and more the idea that Glys was a willing participant in his corruption. Makes me wonder what Sja-anat could have said in order to convince a Radiant spren to submit to the power of an Unmade like that. Or maybe she did it without asking, but helped convince Glys that it was a good thing later? I'm really curious to see what Glys says about her or how they'd interact.

Maybe he was one of the "dead" spren.

[Darvys]

Hmm, for the illumination surge, after his discovery of the gems in the library wasn't the "wave" that rippled out of his hands to open all the drawers a manifestation of the surge ? He was also quick to grasp their purpose "music of language".

[yulerule]

So, now that Oathbringer is out and we know that Glys is a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, can you tell us what hints there were in the previous book? @FeatherWriter

Edited November 17, 2017 by yulerule

[DiamondMind]

12 minutes ago, yulerule said:

So, now that Oathbringer is out and we know that Glys is a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, can you tell us what hints there were in the previous book? @FeatherWriter

If you look at her previous theory topic about Renarin, she lays out all the proofs there.

As for @FeatherWriter's new suggestions

Quote

It’s hard to tell if this means that Renarin’s corrupted sight is also a form of Voidbinding as well, since it doesn’t seem to line up with a Surge the way the others are. The Listener Song of Secrets speaks of Nightform, a form of power which can see the future, which seems as though it might be more similar to what Renarin can do than anything else we’ve seen.

The question is, Renarin is getting his void-powers from a corrupted spren, but I don’t believe that the Fused have a corrupted spren giving them powers, which initially made me think that Renarin’s visions were not Voidbinding like the Fused. Now, I’m not so sure. For the moment, I think I will lean toward the idea that Renarin’s visions and the powers of the Fused are both Voidbinding somehow, even if we don’t have details to confirm anything either way.

I don't believe that Renarin is displaying voidbinding, but a normal Truthwatcher power corrupted by Odium's influence. Normal Truthwatchers definitely have some sort of supernatural sight, but not necessary of the future. Since it is the bond between man and spren which grants these powers, and spren is influenced of Odium, it makes sense that Renarin's power is corrupted in an Odius way.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I don't really have much to add to the discussion, but Storms, as Jasnah was walking up to Renarin I was only able to keep calm because I kept thinking "this is nowhere near as bad as @FeatherWriter's Renarin scene from the 'Turning protagonists into antagonists for fun' thread. You can do this.'

 

So uh... thanks for the emotional trauma back in 2014. It really came in handy today.

[FeatherWriter]

10 hours ago, yulerule said:

So, now that Oathbringer is out and we know that Glys is a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, can you tell us what hints there were in the previous book? @FeatherWriter

As DiamondMind said, I previously laid out my reasoning for thinking that in another post which can be read here: 

The basic gist is that the way in which Renarin's visions manifested themselves didn't seem to line up with what we knew of Surgebinding in that they seemed to be wholly involuntary for him and even possibly painful. Pair that with Vorinism's deep-set fear of seeing the future as being something "of Odium" or "of the Voidbringers" and I had major warning lights going off that Renarin's visions were not entirely what they seemed.

Oathbringer really cinched this leading up to the reveal too. For one, no one talks about Renarin's visions or the fact that he was seeing the future, which should have been something extremely concerning to our mostly Vorin cast! And yet, it's radio silence until a throwaway line in Part 4 (I think) about "well his spren told him something was coming" that, if you've been paying attention to the details, does not at all line up with what we saw of Renarin's visions in WoR. 

Double triple bonus points if you're tuned-in enough to realize that there's significance in that no one sees Renarin's spren either. Glys stays hidden for the entire book, and we see that Stump's confirmation as a Truthwatcher serves as the point of comparison so that we can see what a normal Truthwatcher spren looks like before we get the reveal that Glys is not normal. Most people wouldn't pay attention, but for someone like me who is completely tuned in to Renarin's storyline, there were red flags all throughout leading up to this reveal.

And oh was it so very sweet.

9 hours ago, DiamondMind said:

I don't believe that Renarin is displaying voidbinding, but a normal Truthwatcher power corrupted by Odium's influence. Normal Truthwatchers definitely have some sort of supernatural sight, but not necessary of the future. Since it is the bond between man and spren which grants these powers, and spren is influenced of Odium, it makes sense that Renarin's power is corrupted in an Odius way.

So, this was... my thought originally as well. However there's some meta reason why I'm going back on it. At the end of the book I was certain. The Fused are Voidbinders but Renarin is not. He's should just have somewhat twisted powers due to Sja-anat, right?

Well... there have been some more behind the scenes things that seem to imply otherwise. I believe there's an explicit Word of Peter that Renarin is actually a Voidbinder, which was the first wrench in my plans. @Argent had another more secretive Word of Brandon (that was previously embargoed, but may be able to be talked about now that Oathbringer is out? I'll let Argent make that call though.) that also pointed towards a link between Renarin and Voidbinding.

So... I don't really know for certain. "What is Voidbinding and what qualifies someone as a Voidbinder" is something I'd love to get worked out without having to wait until Book 4, but for now I've gotta take all the scraps and make them fit together somehow?

3 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I don't really have much to add to the discussion, but Storms, as Jasnah was walking up to Renarin I was only able to keep calm because I kept thinking "this is nowhere near as bad as @FeatherWriter's Renarin scene from the 'Turning protagonists into antagonists for fun' thread. You can do this.'

So uh... thanks for the emotional trauma back in 2014. It really came in handy today.

Ha, pleased to have been of service. If there's two things I'm good at in this fandom, it's Renarin knowledge and making people miserable with fanfics. I'm sure I'll come up with something suitably horrible in the wait for Book 4, too.

[Argent]

11 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

@Argent had another more secretive Word of Brandon (that was previously embargoed, but may be able to be talked about now that Oathbringer is out? I'll let Argent make that call though.) that also pointed towards a link between Renarin and Voidbinding.

Technically nobody else is supposed to know it points to that

I've decided to wait until I meet Brandon on Tuesday so I can make sure it's okay to reveal The Page™. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

4 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

this is nowhere near as bad as @FeatherWriter's Renarin scene from the 'Turning protagonists into antagonists for fun' thread.

Which thread is this?

1 hour ago, FeatherWriter said:

Well... there have been some more behind the scenes things that seem to imply otherwise. I believe there's an explicit Word of Peter that Renarin is actually a Voidbinder, which was the first wrench in my plans. @Argent had another more secretive Word of Brandon (that was previously embargoed, but may be able to be talked about now that Oathbringer is out? I'll let Argent make that call though.) that also pointed towards a link between Renarin and Voidbinding.

Not sure I believe this yet, but it now makes such perfect sense Rlain and Renarin are friends. They are like mirror images of each other. The parsh meant to be a Voidbringer who became (maybe? not giving up on this yet) a KR squire. And the brightlord meant to be a KR who became (maybe) a Voidbinder.

[ScavellTane]

Am I wrong in noticing that the Fused only ever use one surge? Could that have some connection? Seeing that Renarin has a corrupted Illumination surge but not a corrupted Progression surge. Can he use void-light somehow?

Edited November 18, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Leyrann]

44 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Am I wrong in noticing that the Fused only ever use one surge? Could that have some connection? Seeing that Renarin has a corrupted Illumination surge and not a corrupted Progression surge. Can he use void-light somehow?

He can definitely use Progression, so that's not it. Also, we know he uses Stormlight.

[Kasimir]

52 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Am I wrong in noticing that the Fused only ever use one surge? Could that have some connection? Seeing that Renarin has a corrupted Illumination surge but not a corrupted Progression surge. Can he use void-light somehow?

I'm guessing what you're suggesting is that since (unlike the Fused?) Renarin has one corrupted KR spren, he runs on both systems--voidlight and stormlight--and maybe his inability to use Illumination is because that Surge is corrupted, so he needs to draw on Voidlight to power it, rather than Stormlight? (And vice-versa: he can't fuel Progression via Voidlight...)

[ScavellTane]

11 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I'm guessing what you're suggesting is that since (unlike the Fused?) Renarin has one corrupted KR spren, he runs on both systems--voidlight and stormlight--and maybe his inability to use Illumination is because that Surge is corrupted, so he needs to draw on Voidlight to power it, rather than Stormlight? (And vice-versa: he can't fuel Progression via Voidlight...)

Yea. Control of his 'resonance' would require both investiture. That makes Renarin and also Venli, Radiants connected to all three shards.

Edited November 18, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Fifth of Daybreak]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Which thread is this?

 

[QuantumHarmonix]

7 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Yea. Control of his 'resonance' would require both investiture. That makes Renarin and also Venli, Radiants connected to all three shards.

I've been thinking that he would be most similar to what Venli has done, with a Radiant Spren and a void spren. I've also been wondering about the one surge that she seems to have control over, until bonding the Radiant Spren. It seems like the Fused have two, but the Regals only get one. What is odd is that the Regals don't seem to draw on voidlight in the way that Fused do, since I can't recall one of them ever being described as leaking black smoke.

For Renarin, this makes for some interesting comparisons. I like the thought that his corrupted spren would result in one of the surges being corrupted. I think that would make him something like half Radiant and Regal. If the illumination surge was the one that was corrupted, that could help explain his problem with it. However, all the KR's seem to have more difficulties with one surge, so that is iffy. But hopefully if the Regals don't need voidlight to power their abilities, then Renarin shouldn't need it to activate the illumination surge. Personally, I think his visions of stained glass images are the result of the corrupted illumination surge. I think normal Truthwatchers would see "Truths" depicted, but the corruption is letting him see the future. 

[Fulminato]

for the illumination surge, the skybreaker can use the surge of division only after the sworn of the third oath, before only can access of the surge of gravitation. and the stormfather tell to dalinar of the surge of tension works very different in stoneward and bondsmith. i don't know is renarin can access of the surge (i think yes, btw), but his incapabilty of use at this point isn't a solid proof in one sense of the other.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Fulminato

[ParadoxicalZen]

Also don't forget that the shared Surges work differently for each Order, so it might be that he is accessing Illumination, just not in an obvious way.

[thegatorgirl00]

I decided to post this here because it has to do with Renarin. I believe he has the ability to see into the Spiritual realm, more than just his visions. 

The evidence I have for this is the scene where he heals Adolin. The vision is described like this. 

Quote

A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.

Later, Nohadon tells Dalinar about the three realms. 

Quote

“All things exist in three realms, Dalinar,” Nohadon said. “The Physical: what you are now. The Cognitive: what you see yourself as being. The Spiritual: the perfect you, the person beyond pain, and error, and uncertainty.”

The description of the perfect you that exists in the spiritual realm seems very similar to what Renarin shows Adolin. As the bond strengthens, bel might be able to control his glimpses into the spiritual realm more. 

As for where this comes from, I'm not sure. Lightweaving is said to have a powerful Spiritual component in the Ars Arcanum, so it might come partly from that. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 hours ago, Fulminato said:

for the illumination surge, the skybreaker can use the surge of division only after the sworn of the third oath, before only can access of the surge of gravitation. and the stormfather tell to dalinar of the surge of tension works very different in stoneward and bondsmith. i don't know is renarin can access of the surge (i think yes, btw), but his incapabilty of use at this point isn't a solid proof in one sense of the other.

It almost makes you wonder how come Windrunners get Adhesion by first oath, and both surges for second. Of course its beginning to look like all orders have their own quirks. I think Renarin can access both surges mostly like a normal Truthwatcher, and maybe its the resonance and some extra abilities that will show its a voidspren.

[Fulminato]

17 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

It almost makes you wonder how come Windrunners get Adhesion by first oath, and both surges for second. Of course its beginning to look like all orders have their own quirks. I think Renarin can access both surges mostly like a normal Truthwatcher, and maybe its the resonance and some extra abilities that will show its a voidspren.

in the skybreaker 'traning' section spoke of the division surge in term of 'dangerous'.

the oath progression isn't a inbound thing of sourgebinding, but a system ishar built to prevent the abuse of the surge themself. honor 'bless' the whole system making it 'his' law. my opinion is the different progression of different order tied to "how far a person actracting a kind of spren should be to safetly use that surge?"

[Droughtbringer]

On 11/16/2017 at 11:39 AM, Blazenella said:

Or, better yet... 

GUIDANCE IS HOID!!!

I mean he has been running around collecting pieces of shards, including a Nahel bond now, so you never know.

The Epigraphs said that Hoid had a chance at divinity, but turned it down.

On 11/16/2017 at 3:33 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

On a more somber tone though, seems that to be a living Kholin you need to be a star. Elhokar was becoming good, possibly even great. But apparently thats not enough in Roshar if your surname is Kholin . Current Kholins:

• Dalinar, with 3 gods fighting over who gets him, who was first a man who could defeat an army on his own, and now is most likely a Splinter of Honor
• Jasnah, greatest scholar in Roshar, most intelligent person in Roshar, most badass woman in Roshar
• Navani, genius fabrician despite her claims otherwise, amazing organizer, great politician
• Adolin, best swordsman in Alethkar (Roshar?), one of the best tacticians, great leader and commander, and capable of inspiring anyone
• Renarin, first person to bond a corrupted spren and demonstrate he can still be a Knight Radiant, and likely a key in Odium's future downfall

Don't forget Shallan! She counts (now) too!

Shallan, the person who has driven away Unmade, discovered Urithuru, and remembers everything

[BarrileteCosmico]

3 hours ago, Fulminato said:

for the illumination surge, the skybreaker can use the surge of division only after the sworn of the third oath, before only can access of the surge of gravitation. and the stormfather tell to dalinar of the surge of tension works very different in stoneward and bondsmith. i don't know is renarin can access of the surge (i think yes, btw), but his incapabilty of use at this point isn't a solid proof in one sense of the other.

This is my interpretation as well. It seems that radiants get access to their secondary/nondominant surge at a later point, it may simply be that he has not uttered the necessary words yet (although perhaps Glys would/should have mentioned this). 

If we are correct in assuming that Glys is corrupted and has access to some form of Odium's power, does this make Renarin champion potential? That would really screw with Dalinar's/Adolin's/Jasnah's/Khaladin's minds

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 minutes ago, BarrileteCosmico said:

If we are correct in assuming that Glys is corrupted and has access to some form of Odium's power, does this make Renarin champion potential? That would really screw with Dalinar's/Adolin's/Jasnah's/Khaladin's minds

I think Renarin's chances at been the champion are under 5%. Odium wants passion, hatred and lack of control. Renarin keeps his passion for his brother in danger, has almost no hatred, and is generally very self-contained.