FeatherWriter

theory
[OB] Unsurprisingly, Feather wants to talk Renarin

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1 hour ago, FeatherWriter said:

Glys is able to form as a Shardblade, which no one deems as looking out of the ordinary.

Glys as Shardblade is strange though. The Blade shows folds like it would have when forged. This could indicate a mixture of Investitures, manifesting in different layers.

Sja-anat speaks of her son. I also think she references to Glys there. Sja-anat's children are twisted spren, but only lesser spren. Glys could also be a child of Sja-anat following the normal reproduction cycle of spren (which we don't know anything about). 
More plausible (Renarin uses Radiant surges normally) for me is that Glys was a legit Truthwatcherspren agreeing to a corruption(to be read in the sense of mixing of different kinds of Investiture) by Sja-anat. This mixing should give Renarin certain Voidbinding powers, too.

The Fused seem to be like Heralds. Bodys fused with an old cognitive shadow (more or less sentient) that has been empowered by Odium. This seems to grant Voidbinding powers without a Nahel bond.

 

Edited by Pattern
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A uniqueness in appearance is something that all Shardblades share. They're all very distinctive. Though the forged folds style could be significant, it could also just be the way that the Glysblade looks. It could be the bands of corruption mixed with regular spren power. 

I'm liking more and more the idea that Glys was a willing participant in his corruption. Makes me wonder what Sja-anat could have said in order to convince a Radiant spren to submit to the power of an Unmade like that. Or maybe she did it without asking, but helped convince Glys that it was a good thing later? I'm really curious to see what Glys says about her or how they'd interact.

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26 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

A uniqueness in appearance is something that all Shardblades share. They're all very distinctive. Though the forged folds style could be significant, it could also just be the way that the Glysblade looks. It could be the bands of corruption mixed with regular spren power. 

I'm liking more and more the idea that Glys was a willing participant in his corruption. Makes me wonder what Sja-anat could have said in order to convince a Radiant spren to submit to the power of an Unmade like that. Or maybe she did it without asking, but helped convince Glys that it was a good thing later? I'm really curious to see what Glys says about her or how they'd interact.

Isn't it stated though, that Glys doesn't know when or how his corruption happened, only that it was before bonding with Renarin?

Edit: Ftr, I think you're very much right, was just wondering about this part.

Edited by Leyrann
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My only issue with this right now is that I am not sold on Renarin actually being able to use Illumination. The only scene where he arguable uses this Surge is in Chapter 10 where he heals Adolin, and I find that a very questionable scene:

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Renarin only stared at that glowing hand, and didn’t seem convinced. So Adolin reached out with his good hand and took Renarin’s, holding it.

“This is good,” Adolin said to him. “You’re not going to hurt anyone. You’re here to save us.”

Renarin looked to him, then smiled. A pulse of Radiance washed through Adolin, and for an instant he saw himself perfected. A version of himself that was somehow complete and whole, the man he could be.

It was gone in a moment, and Renarin pulled his hand free and murmured an apology. He mentioned again the Shardblade needing to be given away, then fled back into the tower.

Adolin sees "himself perfected" in the same moment Renarin performs Regrowth on him. To me, it doesn't sound like he sees an illusion, like the ones Shallan creates with Lightweaving - he sees himself in his mind's eye. 

This being said, this is still a little weird - nobody has else has reported seeing anything like that when healed with Regrowth (though the only one I can think of off the top of my head who was also a viewpoint character at the time is Dalinar in his first Heb vision, and there was a fabrial involved there).

Still, not sold. I think Renarin will have access only to the Surge of Progression, though maybe he can access it through both "filters" - as (Re)Growth through his Surgebinding, and as futuresight through his Voidbinding. 

On a different note though, I do think Glys is a corrupted lightspren - the standard Truthwatcher spren. His description:

Quote

bright red, shimmering like the heat of a mirage. A crystalline structure, like a snowflake, though it dripped light upward toward the ceiling

---

like a snowflake made of crystal and light

could match what we have seen from Sja-anat's corruption before. Lightspren normally appear like so:

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The spren reportedly looked like light on a surface after it reflects through something crystalline.

and the descriptions of all the Sja-anat spren suggest that the spren retains a lot of its regular appearance, only... slightly twisted. Sharper. And redder.

So that part, at least, I not only agree with, but support with a little bit extra.

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Another curious thing about Glys is that he resides in Renarin's heart:

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It will be ... great ... vast ... wonderful! Glys said from Renarin's heart. It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look!

It reminded me of the gemhearts of the parsh, where spren are trapped to apply their forms. Glys is not trapped in Renarin, he can come out at will. His chosen home, though, is Renarin's heart.
The other Radiantspren we have seen are all external. Except: Venli's spren in the end sits in her gemheart and has the voidspren captured.

16 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Isn't it stated though, that Glys doesn't know when or how his corruption happened, only that it was before bonding with Renarin?

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Glys had once been a different kind of spren, but something had changed him, corrupted him. Glys didn't remember that very well; it had happened before they had formed their bond. Now, neither of them knew what they'd become.

 

Edited by Pattern
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16 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

I'm... actually pretty sure lightspren are the Willshaper spren.

Oh, right, got confused for a moment there. I did mean that Glys is a regular Truthwatcher spren. Them appearing as spots of light made me mix them up with the lightspren. I do happen to agree that lightspren are the Willshaper spren, yes.

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As to the powers of the Fused coming from the Unmade, I disagree. I thought that Part 2 made pretty clear that the Fused's powers come from Parshendi spirits having, for lack of a better word, marinaded in Odium's essence, taking on some of his magic through the damage caused to their personalities by the (sometimes repeated) death of their bodies, and that the forms of power seem to let them access at least one surge at a time. (I suspect they can only access one)

A little cleanup on Renarin, too. I would also note very carefully in the second scene of Chapter 122 where Odium talks to Taravangian that Renarin's name on the Diagram is hidden from Odium's vision. This is likely due to a similar effect to Ruin's blindness to metal.

edit: here's the exact quote:
 

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There. Behind where the bed had stood. A section of words that had faded from golden to black. What was that? As he draw near, Taravangian saw that the words were blacked out into eternity starting from this point on his wall. As if something had happened here. A ripple in what Odium could see...
At its root, a name. Renarin Kholin.

I'm not 100% convinced that Glys is a corrupted spren. That might be true, and seems like the most obvious reading of the text, and that Ivory's comments ("a traitor is", iirc?) may simply refer to corruption of a Lightspren by Sja-anat, but it could also be that Glys is some other type of spren typically associated with Odium that has switched sides. (I think we can safely assume they're not talking about Sja-anat herself with that comment given the context of Jasnah running off to find Renarin) Whichever exact interpretation is correct, I also find it very likely that Renarin has no access to Lightweaving at all, and that his visions of the future are probably a manifestation of a different Surge that's replaced lightweaving. We'll have to wait and see if any other Lightspren choose humans to have a point of comparison.

Edited by Ari
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4 hours ago, Argent said:

My only issue with this right now is that I am not sold on Renarin actually being able to use Illumination. The only scene where he arguable uses this Surge is in Chapter 10 where he heals Adolin...

Let's not forget one very significant scene where Renarin was using Illumination (a non-Lightweaving application of it). It was in Chapter 120, when he defeated a thunderclast with Light:

Quote

 

“So … Glys?” he asked. “What do I do?”

Light. You will make it go with light.

...

Renarin raised his fist and summoned Stormlight. It glowed as a powerful beacon. And …

The red molten eyes faded before that light, and the thing settled down with a last extinguishing sigh.

 

This was my favorite Renarin scene, to be honest.

By the way, I bet this type of offensive/purifying Illumination was what Ym's spren had in mind when she urged him (in vain) to use Light against Nale back in that WoR interlude.

Edited by skaa
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26 minutes ago, skaa said:

Let's not forget one very significant scene where Renarin was using Illumination (a non-Lightweaving application of it). It was in Chapter 120, when he defeated a thunderclast with Light:

This was my favorite Renarin scene, to be honest.

By the way, I bet this type of offensive/purifying Illumination was what Ym's spren had in mind when she urged him (in vain) to use Light against Nale back in that WoR interlude.

I don't think that was lightweaving. I think it was something else. 

The visions are likely Renarin's resonance. It seems like a twisted version of the Truthwatcher resonance towards predictions and likely outcomes that seemed to explain last book. 

But I think Renarin's other surge is something different than Lightweaving. Something that gives him power over some of Odiums creations. 

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28 minutes ago, skaa said:

Let's not forget one very significant scene where Renarin was using Illumination (a non-Lightweaving application of it). It was in Chapter 120, when he defeated a thunderclast with Light:

This is also questionable. As I read it, he simply became Invested, did nothing, and the thunderclast died for whatever reason. Less clean that way, but it's how it read to me.

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I'm not completely through with the book so at the current moment I won't read this thread. But Feather, as soon as I finish the book I'm coming directly here to discuss the wonderful perfect boy with you.

Edited by bleeder
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Looking forward to it, Bleeder. As Argent said though, I don't think Lightspren are the Truthwatcher spren, despite the fact that they look like light. If it's a spren we've already seen, Mistspren seem to be a more likely candidate, but Brandon has said that he's not ready to canonize which spren the Truthwatchers have yet.

Though I admit the expressions of Illumination tend to be a bit less well defined, I do think both the Adolin scene and the Thunderclast scene are Illumination. We've seen that illusions scare off some kinds of voidish entities from the way that Shallan fights them, and even though it's not a very nuanced used, I think that's what the light that Renarin uses is.

Also I am fairly convinced that the Truthwatcher resonance has nothing to do with visions, but is actually an ability to see the truth of situations. Renarin early on seems to be aware of who really killed Sadeas. Stump says that she can always tell when the kids are lying to her and faking, and there's a quote from the in-world Words of Radiance that says: "their silence was not a sign of exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact." Tact, because they know what's really happening but choose to politely not air everyone's dirty laundry for the sake of everyone getting along.

I feel like I'm developing a little mini-theory that certain orders find certain Surges easier than others. Shallan picks up Illumination far faster than Transformation. Skybreakers learn Gravitation much faster than Division, to the point of being forbidden to use Division before their third oaths. Kaladin uses Adhesion naturally but isn't able to get Gravitation down until he sees the example from Szeth. Lift has Abrasion down pat, but has to be coached through using Progression by Wyndle, who also says that Regrowth would be too hard for her (though she later figures it out in a moment of desperation). 

And all three of the Truthwatchers we see use Regrowth easily, yet none of the three seem to dabble with Illumination very deeply on screen. Ym used his Progression intentionally but Stump healed unconsciously. I think the same is happening with Renarin, who finds Progression just easier than Illumination, but still has that surge and will be able to use it in time.

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7 minutes ago, FeatherWriter said:

I feel like I'm developing a little mini-theory that certain orders find certain Surges easier than others. Shallan picks up Illumination far faster than Transformation. Skybreakers learn Gravitation much faster than Division, to the point of being forbidden to use Division before their third oaths. Kaladin uses Adhesion naturally but isn't able to get Gravitation down until he sees the example from Szeth. Lift has Abrasion down pat, but has to be coached through using Progression by Wyndle, who also says that Regrowth would be too hard for her (though she later figures it out in a moment of desperation). 

And all three of the Truthwatchers we see use Regrowth easily, yet none of the three seem to dabble with Illumination very deeply on screen. Ym used his Progression intentionally but Stump healed unconsciously. I think the same is happening with Renarin, who finds Progression just easier than Illumination, but still has that surge and will be able to use it in time.

Let me expand on that: It appears like every single Order has an easier time learning their "first" Surge than they do their "second" Surge, in the order that we know the Surges. I think that, so far, only Dalinar doesn't hold to this rule.

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Was it the Rock scene where he comments in his head about Renarin's uniform always looking a little better than everyone else's? Could be just him, and being fastidious, but it could also be unconscious Lightweaving.

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I liked Renarin before this book. I love him now, second fave behind Kal. 

I really hope he can use Illumination as well as Progression, and also some other power manifestation from the corruption. That would be neat. Also, I don't think his moment with Adolin was Illumination, it seemed more like  just Progression to me. And the thunderclast ultimate defeat could be related more to the corruption than to Illumination. As mentioned before, each order has more affinity for one surge than the other: Windrunners - Adhesion, Skybreakers - Gravity, Dustbringers - Division, Edgedancers - Abrasion, Truthwatchers - Progression, Lightweavers - Illumination, Elsecallers - Transformation (from Jasnah), Willshapers - Transportation (by logic), Stonewards - Cohesion (same) and Bondsmiths - Tension? (well, Dalinar has no problem with either, even though he begins by using adhesion), so as Shallan maybe we just have to wait a little to see him use it. 

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19 minutes ago, MoS03 said:

Was it the Rock scene where he comments in his head about Renarin's uniform always looking a little better than everyone else's? Could be just him, and being fastidious, but it could also be unconscious Lightweaving.

I think he is being fastidous (and underlining the division between Renarin and the rest of bridge 4), also remember that Renarin is a prince, he surely has more resources for a better uniform than the others. 

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1 minute ago, redgarlic68 said:

I think he is being fastidous (and underlining the division between Renarin and the rest of bridge 4), also remember that Renarin is a prince, he surely has more resources for a better uniform than the others. 

And is also very used to wearing a uniform, while most of the rest of Bridge 4 live in the barracks and were bridgemen before this. Hygiene is still probably not something they all care about very much aside from probably Sigzil.

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Im still convinced that the Fused arent Voidbinding, but are utilizing fabrial magics. Trapping Cognitive Entities in their gemhearts is what grants them the surges, that is pretty much exactly what fabrial magic is.

I also think that Renarin has the powers of a Truthwatcher, as well as Voidbinding powers. Those visions are a power we havent seen from the ten surges, seeing as how it is completely new im positive it is a Voidbinding.

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That feels like it's backwards to me, Blight, since then Renarin would be the only Voidbinder we see and his situation is obviously weird. We've got that whole chart of Voidbinding powers but the weird corruption situation is the only thing that actually qualifies? It seems more likely that there's different orders of powers like we see with the Fused that match that chart, which means that the Fused would be the Voidbinders.

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Not to sidetrack, but between Renarin and Venli, are we getting some foreshadowing for the idea that Honor and Odium aren't entirely incompatible?

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33 minutes ago, MoS03 said:

Not to sidetrack, but between Renarin and Venli, are we getting some foreshadowing for the idea that Honor and Odium aren't entirely incompatible?

Yes. I think we will see more things like these two. 

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1 hour ago, MoS03 said:

Not to sidetrack, but between Renarin and Venli, are we getting some foreshadowing for the idea that Honor and Odium aren't entirely incompatible?

That's a funny question and an important one I think

Given what we know about the Cosmere, we already know the two are compatible, they were once part of a unified whole.  It's just...their current interpretations and goals make them appear to be incompatible.

Myself and one other person almost on top of each other suggested the possibility that by the end of it all we'll see a tri-shard of Honor, Cultivation and Odium.  I don't know what you'd call that resulting being, and honestly I think the likelihood of it is low.  But we know Dalinar was touched by Odium his whole life, yet was connected enough to Honor to at least partially ascend, and we know Cultivation has had her hand on him as well, so it would seem that Dalinar has enough connections to be able to hold all three.

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5 minutes ago, Mulk said:

That's a funny question and an important one I think

Given what we know about the Cosmere, we already know the two are compatible, they were once part of a unified whole.  It's just...their current interpretations and goals make them appear to be incompatible.

Myself and one other person almost on top of each other suggested the possibility that by the end of it all we'll see a tri-shard of Honor, Cultivation and Odium.  I don't know what you'd call that resulting being, and honestly I think the likelihood of it is low.  But we know Dalinar was touched by Odium his whole life, yet was connected enough to Honor to at least partially ascend, and we know Cultivation has had her hand on him as well, so it would seem that Dalinar has enough connections to be able to hold all three.

Yup, that's me! And I figured Guidance would be a good name, also considering that Odium seems to be more about Passion than just hate.

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