[OB] Odium (and Dalinar) (and Honor) (and Cultivation)

[RShara]

7 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

 

The quote from Syl "The one who hates" pertains to Assassin in White, right? It takes place when AiW tries to kill Dalinar. Not related to Odium at all imo. 

As to Frost, we have next to nothing who he is. Sanderson has requested to avoid previous Dragonsteel books and wait for Book 3 to be the beginner of the arc. 

The Parshmen song imo is just way too vague to make sense either way. 

 

I'll leave this to RAFO as both theories hold some water and let's see what Sanderson takes this forward...

 

Quote

“The one who hates,” she whispered. “The darkness inside. Kaladin, he’s watching. Something’s going to happen. Something bad.”

Odium was watching, not present, and not represented by just Szeth. Also, Szeth was likely being influenced by Odium, since he was doing the signature, "This isn't my fault, I have no control over myself" denials that give Odium power over people.

[Aleph-Naught]

The main reason I don't buy that "Odium" is a shard that only embodies hatred (rather than a more abstract notion such as passionate feeling) is that it's too narrow and would seem to require more shards than are available to account for the dizzying array of possible emotions (will there be a shard that bears Adonalsium's divine love? His divine loneliness?).

So why does everyone call him Odium? I speculated elsewhere that it's simply propaganda. Rayse is an enemy, you don't want to paint your enemy in anything but a negative light so that you can more easily sway people to ally against him. A shard of pure divine hatred? Yeah, that seems bad, he might need to/should probably be stopped. A shard of nebulous intense feelings that can include hatred, but may also account for joy, lust, etc.? Ehh, that's a bit harder of a sell as an ultimate evil.

When Frost, Syl, et al. talk about him it's never definitive enough for me. Frost says, "he bears god's divine hatred," that is nebulous enough that it could mean it's he bears this thing in addition to other things; "the one who hates", can also be ambiguous. If either of them said something more like, "he bears only god's divine hatred," or "the one who can only hate," then I'd say, "okay, yeah, dude's the shard of hatred."

[RShara]

17 hours ago, Aleph-Naught said:

The main reason I don't buy that "Odium" is a shard that only embodies hatred (rather than a more abstract notion such as passionate feeling) is that it's too narrow and would seem to require more shards than are available to account for the dizzying array of possible emotions (will there be a shard that bears Adonalsium's divine love? His divine loneliness?).

So why does everyone call him Odium? I speculated elsewhere that it's simply propaganda. Rayse is an enemy, you don't want to paint your enemy in anything but a negative light so that you can more easily sway people to ally against him. A shard of pure divine hatred? Yeah, that seems bad, he might need to/should probably be stopped. A shard of nebulous intense feelings that can include hatred, but may also account for joy, lust, etc.? Ehh, that's a bit harder of a sell as an ultimate evil.

When Frost, Syl, et al. talk about him it's never definitive enough for me. Frost says, "he bears god's divine hatred," that is nebulous enough that it could mean it's he bears this thing in addition to other things; "the one who hates", can also be ambiguous. If either of them said something more like, "he bears only god's divine hatred," or "the one who can only hate," then I'd say, "okay, yeah, dude's the shard of hatred."

Right, but I was just rereading parts of Mistborn, and Secret History.  Ruin claimed not to be Ruin, but Change. He tried to convince both Vin and Kelsier that he was a force for good, that mankind needed him to prevent stagnation, etc.

Odium uses nearly the same arguments, which makes me seriously doubt his words.

Mistborn: Secret History spoilers:

Quote

Spoiler

 

Ruin pulled up, as if offended. “That was uncalled for!” He spread his hands. “Death is not evil, Kelsier. Death is necessary. Every clock must wind down, every day must end. Without me there is no life, and never could have been. Life is change, and I represent that change.”

“And now you’ll end it.”

“It was a gift I gave,” Ruin said, stretching out his hand toward Kelsier. “Life. Wondrous, beautiful life. The joy of the new child, the pride of a parent, the satisfaction of a job well done. These are from me.

 

 

[Draigon]

The thing is, Ruin wasn't lying. Preservation's favorite person ever on Scadrial was the Lord Ruler because he was the closest he could find to someone who never changed, and Preservation saw that as perfection. Scadrial itself only exists because the two shards worked together to make something neither of them could achieve by themselves.
I think we have something similar in Odium in that he is more than just Hatred, but for all that he's trying to put forth his "good side", hatred is currently dominant, much like ruin was currently dominant in a shard that embodied entropy.

[RShara]

2 hours ago, Draigon said:

The thing is, Ruin wasn't lying. Preservation's favorite person ever on Scadrial was the Lord Ruler because he was the closest he could find to someone who never changed, and Preservation saw that as perfection. Scadrial itself only exists because the two shards worked together to make something neither of them could achieve by themselves.
I think we have something similar in Odium in that he is more than just Hatred, but for all that he's trying to put forth his "good side", hatred is currently dominant, much like ruin was currently dominant in a shard that embodied entropy.

No, he wasn't lying, but he was being deceptive.  He probably also believed what he was saying.  That doesn't mean it was the truth.

But my point is, Ruin was, in fact, aptly named, despite his claiming to be change instead of destruction, or entropy.  Which is why I'm pretty sure Odium is doing the same thing, even using the same phrasing.

[Beatsmorn]

Plot twist: Odium was part of Adonalsium which goal was to take humanity darkest feelings away from them, thus his 'voidish' theme and seizing emotions.

And Rayse is the secret hero who is trying not to allow anybody recreate Adonalsium, because Adonalsium got totally crapped up in the end.

[Draigon]

I just caught something as I was listening to the book again. In Kohlinar, Shallan tries to sketch how the various spren look when corrupted. When she gets to hunger-spren, there is a quick note that oddly they haven't changed.  This fits very neatly with the idea that Odium is a void or a devouring of passion rather than a source of passion.

[TheEdgedancer]

Ruin is not change, he is Entropy(fancy word for Ruin). Odium is not hatred, he is Odium, hence the name

[The Gecko]

On 11/29/2017 at 8:28 PM, TequilaJack said:

The clincher for me is Odium waged a war against Honor on Roshar and killed Tanavast eventually......but let Cultivation live. Why?

I don't recall him being at odds with her. Becaue there is a quote on Cultivation that "she's  only interested in transformation. Growth. It can be good or bad, for all she cares". She how that can co-exist with Odium's Passion (but not hatred alone). More proof that Odium only destroys Devotion, Dominion and Honor...all which are against "free passion" and not Cultivation, which he can co-exist with. 

You are forgetting Ambition with this theory, I feel like Ambition would be for "free passion" as you put it, and yet Odium splintered him for being one of the greatest threats to his plans(WoB below) If Odium truly was a shard of the strongest Passions, wouldn't he want to claim Ambition to add to his power, rather than kill him?

WoB:

ARGENT

I want to take us back to some Shards before we skip me for the fourth time. So there were a few of the Shards that Rayse Splintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

ARGENT

And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

ARGENT

So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

BRANDON SANDERSON

He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

ARGENT

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Edited December 4, 2017 by TheBMSRanger
Found WoB

[RShara]

Except that he does want to kill Cultivation.  I thought he just couldn't find her?

[The Gecko]

That is what I thought too, that she was hidden. I feel like not taking Ambition's shard is evidence towards him not being passion though, with Odium it makes sense that he kills Ambition, whereas if he were passion and not merely hatred, why wouldn't he claim Ambition and become a Passion/Ambition double shard superpower like Harmony is?

Also, if Odium was Passion instead and had taken Ambition, what could we call that?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Gecko

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Gecko said:

You are forgetting Ambition with this theory, I feel like Ambition would be for "free passion" as you put it, and yet Odium splintered him for being one of the greatest threats to his plans(WoB below) If Odium truly was a shard of the strongest Passions, wouldn't he want to claim Ambition to add to his power, rather than kill him?

WoB:

ARGENT

I want to take us back to some Shards before we skip me for the fourth time. So there were a few of the Shards that Rayse Splintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

ARGENT

And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

ARGENT

So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

BRANDON SANDERSON

He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

ARGENT

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Just to clarify, Uli Da was female.

[The Gecko]

Huh, I hadn't realized Uli Da(as mentioned in Oathbringer, right?) was Ambition. I thought that was one of the shards we hadn't met yet. When did we learn this?

Or maybe, we are all wrong and Odium is just a huge sexist and is targeting the female shards, namely Devotion, Ambition, and Cultivation. Perhaps Dominion and Honor were just casualties for being gentlemen(which fits with Lust)

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Gecko

[Kingsdaughter613]

Someone asked Brandon, officially confirming this.

It was fairly evident however, as Ambition was the only Shard we knew Odium killed who’s Vessel we did not know. In addition, the description of Uli Da fit with the idea of Ambition, and we know Odium went after Ambition first (though he didn’t find her until Aona and Skai had been killed.)

Unless Odium had killed a fifth Shard that we did not know, Uli Da had to be Ambition’s Vessel by process of elimination.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[The Gecko]

LEIFTINSPACE

Can you write in one of my books about something we don;t know about the Shards, or at least one of the Shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium has killed at least one more Shard than the ones we know about.

 

This is the WoB I was thinking about when I read the name Uli Da. I don't know when we got this though, or if we knew Ambition at the time so I suppose she could be what this is talking about

[Aleph-Naught]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Gecko said:

You are forgetting Ambition with this theory, I feel like Ambition would be for "free passion" as you put it, and yet Odium splintered him for being one of the greatest threats to his plans... If Odium truly was a shard of the strongest Passions, wouldn't he want to claim Ambition to add to his power, rather than kill him.

No, because Rayse wants to be be as "pure" as possible and not co-mingle with another intent:

Quote

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

That being said, now that Harmony is in the mix and Dalinar was able to screw up his plans, I think Rayse would grab up another shard if his back were against the wall, maybe even go back and snatch up Ambition (I assume that his experience with splintering shards may give him a particular insight into reforming them as well).

[TequilaJack]

On 11/29/2017 at 11:14 PM, RShara said:

Also, Szeth was likely being influenced by Odium, since he was doing the signature, "This isn't my fault, I have no control over myself" denials that give Odium power over people.

I don't think so. Szeth was operating due to outcome of Diagram as interpreted by Tarvangian. Even Odium was surprised when he saw it at the end. So I believe Szeth was a separate thread not known to Odium. 

[TequilaJack]

16 hours ago, Ookla the Gecko said:

You are forgetting Ambition with this theory, I feel like Ambition would be for "free passion" as you put it, and yet Odium splintered him for being one of the greatest threats to his plans(WoB below) If Odium truly was a shard of the strongest Passions, wouldn't he want to claim Ambition to add to his power, rather than kill him?

Valid points. 

When Dalinar ascends Odium reaction was "WE killed you" I take it he was colluding with Cultivation to kill Honor. Maybe in exchange for some power or her own survival. Eventually he plans to be the only shard alive and Cultivation is last on list, since he's not actively searching for her. 

He did not absorb any other shards since he believes it will corrupt and influence him. He prefers to remain as is and be the most powerful. 

[RShara]

39 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

I don't think so. Szeth was operating due to outcome of Diagram as interpreted by Tarvangian. Even Odium was surprised when he saw it at the end. So I believe Szeth was a separate thread not known to Odium. 

Syl says that Odium is watching just before Szeth comes for Dalinar the first time.  Odium might have been surprised at the existence of the Diagram itself, but when he saw it, he showed T how very tiny of a surface scratch the Diagram was, compared to him.  So I highly doubt he was ignorant of Szeth's actions.

 

Let's look at the Unmade that we've seen.  They are Splinters of Odium's power, therefore, they are tied to his power and Intent. 

1.  Ashertmann--Basically the embodiment of the 7 Deadly Sins.  Lust, Greed, Gluttony, etc.  Excess.  Mindless Indulgence. Filling an empty soul with sensation in order to escape or to remember what it's like to feel.

2. Moelach--Cryptic foresight on the border between life and death.

3.  Nergaoul--Basically, bloodlust.  Berserker rage.

4.  Re-Shephir--Drawn to violence and pain.

5.  Sja-anat--Corruption.

6.  Yelig-nar--Not sure how to characterize this one, actually.  Destruction?  Power?   Possession?  Something along those lines.

 

We don't know enough about the other 3 to say what they're like at this time.  However, looking at 6/9, I don't see how any of them could indicate Odium's Intent is "Passion" or anything other than, well, Odium.  We have rage, bloodlust, gluttony, violence, corruption. 
If his Intent were Passion, wouldn't at least SOME of those involve more positive forms of passion? 

 

Quote

 

When Dalinar ascends Odium reaction was "WE killed you" I take it he was colluding with Cultivation to kill Honor. Maybe in exchange for some power or her own survival. Eventually he plans to be the only shard alive and Cultivation is last on list, since he's not actively searching for her. 

He did not absorb any other shards since he believes it will corrupt and influence him. He prefers to remain as is and be the most powerful. 

 

I took this to mean Odium and his Unmade, or other allies/servants.  Wasn't Cultivation in love with Tanavast?  Seems unlikely that she would ally with Odium to kill him.

Edited December 4, 2017 by RShara

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I think this is a fairly clear explanation for the passion/odium relationship. Passion is the lever by which Odium incites hatred/anger, and further it is the lever by which he manipulates the hatred/anger once it is incited.

Riots erupted in Kholinar in response to the gluttony exhibited by Asuedan and her ardents. Passion of Excess is used to cause angry mob violence.

Those in the clutches of the thrill, the passion of competition, kill indiscriminately. Passion of competition is used to create hatred of the other/opponent.

Moash, is walking apathy with a caveat. He only saves the Parshmen from their oppressors because he wants the voidbringers to create a better more perfectly ordered society than the world created by the lighteyes. He is motivated, moved and controlled by his passionate hatred of Elokhar, and by extension his hatred of the ruling classes of all Roshar. Passion for vengeance used to possibly create Odium's champion. If Moash was a french Coal miner, he would have been the anarchist dynamiter from Zola's Germinal.

I believe the intent of Rayse's shard is clearly Hatred, but that hatred has attached to the objects that give it greatest purpose/direction. The emotions that are at the root of all manner of different types of hatred were pulled along into the intent of the shard Odium. To use a programming metaphor, Passion is the Interface for the Hatred Functions.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typos

[RShara]

I can agree with that.  It's like (to continue the comparison) how Ruin's Intent was destruction and entropy.  He used change and sometimes passion and other altruistic desires to accomplish that.

 

It seems to me that Odium consumes Passion, rather than embodies it.  That fits with his being Void.

Edited December 4, 2017 by RShara

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

21 minutes ago, RShara said:

It seems to me that Odium consumes Passion, rather than embodies it.  That fits with his being Void.

This doesn't seem to me to be the way that it works. I think that the void is really self abnegation, the destruction of the self in service of the Hatred. I think that Moash is the prime exemplar for how Odium works. Moash at this point seems to be a husk of a person, a mere vessel to contain the one thing that he still feels, which is a hatred that drives him to vengeance. The part that was telling was that he felt no emotion after killing Elohkar, the goal that he had tried for so long to accomplish. I don't think that this was a case where his passion for vengeance was consumed, more that the person he was, his identity other this drive for vengeance was consumed on his road to reach his end goal.

Edited December 4, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typo, like usual

[RShara]

It could work either way.  I don't have strong feelings or arguments for or against.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Totally just my reading of how this works but I think that the void mentioned in the voidbringers is a loss of individual identity.

When Odium was trying to convince Dalinar to give him his pain, he was trying to take something away from Dalinar other than his pain. He wanted to take Dalinar's sense of Responsibility for his actions away from him, and this seems like an attack on his identity. One of his main virtues as a person is his sense of responsibility and the drive to do his duty (which is heavily dependent on his sense of responsibility). Moash says multiple times that he's not to blame, he has discarded his sense of personal responsibility for his actions, and becomes instead a mere vessel of Hatred. Dalinar realizes that the pain he feels is part of who he is, and that the pain is his because he was responsible for causing it. He's not not taking the Rationalization feel good pills that Odium the pusher is offering, instead he accepts who is, so that he can do better in the future.

[RShara]

5 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Totally just my reading of how this works but I think that the void mentioned in the voidbringers is a loss of individual identity.

When Odium was trying to convince Dalinar to give him his pain, he was trying to take something away from Dalinar other than his pain. He wanted to take Dalinar's sense of Responsibility for his actions away from him, and this seems like an attack on his identity. One of his main virtues as a person is his sense of responsibility and the drive to do his duty (which is heavily dependent on his sense of responsibility). Moash says multiple times that he's not to blame, he has discarded his sense of personal responsibility for his actions, and becomes instead a mere vessel of Hatred. Dalinar realizes that the pain he feels is part of who he is, and that the pain is his because he was responsible for causing it. He's not not taking the Rationalization feel good pills that Odium the pusher is offering, instead he accepts who is, so that he can do better in the future.

That makes sense to me.  Somehow, giving up Responsibility for your actions allows Odium to steal your Identity.  Very strange.