[OB] Odium (and Dalinar) (and Honor) (and Cultivation)

[Leyrann Honorspren]

Let's be real. Odium wasn't what we expected.

Yes, he was the bad guy and people had to fight him. But he also claimed to not simply be the Shard of hate, and if we assume that a Shard cannot lie when showing someone his 'true self' like he did with Dalinar (and I think that's a safe assumption) then indeed, he is not simply hate, but rather, as he himself also sees it, Passion. Caring. I still don't trust him one inch - even if only because we know Rayse was "among the most loathsome, crafty and dangerous indiviuals I [Hoid] had ever met". Sounds like a bad guy to me.

What, however if this Shard were held by someone who can only be described as honest, caring and strong? Someone like, say, Dalinar. And the thing is - we've already seen something special from Dalinar. Something he did in Thaylen City seems to have granted him a bit of Honor's power. At the very least, Odium Passion recognized something from Honor in there, and Dalinar managed to bring Honor's Perpendicularity there, even infusing all spheres. I personally believe that he has, in a way, ascended like Sazed has done. However, because Honor is splintered, he only ascended with one or maybe a couple of splinters, meaning he is nowhere near as powerful. But what if he starts gathering splinters, building up more and more power and - in the process - making Honor whole again with him as the Vessel? We know, after all, that a splintered Shard can be mended.

So what if Dalinar were to restore Honor this way, and then, maybe through help from the Knights Radiant, maybe with help from Cultivation, or something else, manages to defeat Rayse (not Passion, but Rayse) and then pick up Passion himself? We'd have a shard of Honor and Passion, which I think would be a Shard that would do well as the god of a world and which would align pretty well with who Dalinar is right now already.

And one last thing, Cultivation's holder is still alive, but what if she were to somehow die (maybe to kill Rayse?), and Dalinar would pick up Cultivation as well? Not only would we have a god with Honor and Passion, but also Cultivation. I don't know what we'd call that shard, but I do think that it would make for a 'god' that I wouldn't mind governing my world. Not only honorable and passionate, but also cultivating the world to make it better. Let's call the shard Guidance.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Leyrann
Figured out a good name for the triple shard

[dionysus Forescout]

I'll move that other discussion over here.

This is Dalinar's description of Odium, and you and I believe that Odium cannot lie about this vision.

"Burning. Overwhelming. Power. It as the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield. It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy. It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory. And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt."

Not any positive emotions balancing out the emphasis given to hatred other than joy of victory and lust. Odium is clearly more than just hatred, and Passion is a better name for him. But I see no evidence that all emotions or even some forms of passion are part of his intent.

Also, I am not sure what part of Honor could temper the negative in Passion, especially post OB understanding of Honor. I think the goodness we see in Honor is more from Tanavast than the shard's intent.

[Leyrann Honorspren]

Just now, dionysus said:

I'll move that other discussion over here.

This is Dalinar's description of Odium, and you and I believe that Odium cannot lie about this vision.

"Burning. Overwhelming. Power. It as the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield. It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy. It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory. And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt."

Not any positive emotions balancing out the emphasis given to hatred other than joy of victory and lust. Odium is clearly more than just hatred, and Passion is a better name for him. But I see no evidence that all emotions or even some forms of passion are part of his intent.

Also, I am not sure what part of Honor could temper the negative in Passion, especially post OB understanding of Honor. I think the goodness we see in Honor is more from Tanavast than the shard's intent.

I don't think it is as much Honor tempering the negative in Passion, however, as I think it will be Dalinar as Vessel doing so, just like how I believe Rayse magnifies the negative.

[IndigoAjah King's Wit]

We've seen Shards show a false version of themselves to humans before (Ruin, TWoA), and we know Odium was still holding back, so I think the first bit of the theory is a big presumption.

[IndigoAjah King's Wit]

The Passion idea does fit with the theology of Roshar though, and has interesting potential interactions with a lot of characters (e.g. Nale), and fits his offer to take ownership of people's pain. 

 

Seems odd that hes acquired Odium as a name then, though... I'm split on this.

 

if true it makes me think of the Morah though (from the Wind on Fire) and I think does make him more interesting. I just struggle to believe that type of character, esp when he gives off a serious Shai'tan from Wheel of Time vibe 

[skaa Mistborn]

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

We also know that the Shard of Ruin is more than the power to ruin things. It is fundamentally the power of change.

It's nice to know that the Intent of a Shard is more subtle than it may seem at first.

I also feel that the only good solution to the Odium problem is to merge the Shard with another, to give Adonalsium's "passion" aspect a positive directing force.

Edited November 16, 2017 by skaa

[Mondaysjelly Crew Leader]

What if Odium isn't Odium? Maybe this "Passion" is just an avatar of Odium's or a godspren (the Sibling?) that has been corrupted by Odium?

I'm at work so I don't have the actual book with me to reference so apologies in advance. But the 2 things that stand out for me are:

1. The constant reminder that voidspren bonding humans is a new technique for Odium.
2. A subset of Rosharians worship the Passions. Sure, this could be construed as humans arriving on Roshar along with Odium as Voidbringers but I think this doesn't add up. Why would the native Rosharians allow them Shinovar if they came in all-guns blazing to conquer? My tip is that this "Passion" already existed before then.

They're pretty weak connections I suppose but something just doesn't feel right. This Odium seems like it has been speaking through a filter.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Mondaysjelly

[Wandering Investor Stormwarden]

I think it is important to note that the passions that Odium speaks of are all violent (mostly). He doesn't claim the passion of love for instance, an example being when Dalinar is holding his young son. Instead, he seems to claim the passion of contest, you against an enemy, you against something that you can (potentially) hate. It doesn't even have to be a living thing, trying to move a big boulder could be a contest between you and the boulder. Loving a wife isn't something Odium would claim, but a fight with said wife would be something he'd claim. Even the joy of the fight he claims is specifically about fighting someone, and then overcoming that someone. The sorrow of loss is the viewpoint of the overwhelmed person from the contest and something Odium claims too since its part of the contest.

The only part I'm not sure about is the "It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy." part. This doesn't really fit into the contest description I've used so far that seems relevant to the other things Odium claims.

[hoser Elantrian]

So the theory is that Odium is really Passion?  I'm afraid I don't buy it for 5 reasons:

1. The name Odium seems to be generally accepted
2. The Hoid quote mentioned above
3. Dalinar's perception of him mentioned above
4. In the climactic battle, he planned and schemed and controlled and then was willing to engage, but when things started to go wrong and seem uncertain, he bailed.  This seemed to me like the meal "best served cold" rather than the action of Passion.  Passion seems like it should be likely to double down when challenged, rather than live to fight another day. 
5. The conversation and agreement with Mr. T.  That level of scheming, foresight and planning does not seem passionate to me. 

There are definitely some passionate aspects of Odium, but Passion does not accurately encompass the range of his behaviors, IMO. 

[Leyrann Honorspren]

37 minutes ago, hoser said:

The Hoid quote mentioned above

I think that this one is actually the source of the others though. As we've seen in these WoBs, a Shard's holder can have a lasting influence on the exact goals of the Shard, as long as it aligns, in a way, with the Shard's Intent. This would explain why hate is so strong - Rayse was a loathsome, crafty and dangerous individual (which to me sounds like he's a bad guy that probably hates a lot of people/stuff) - and would, therefore, also explain Dalinar's perception of him. Additionally, a crafty individual would, by nature, attempt to plan things. And I don't think it's all that weird that he bails when he seems someone ascend to pick up a piece of Honor, when he thought he was finished with Honor. That's like "I killed you! How can you be here? This isn't supposed to be possible!"

Also, not to derail my own thread, but I wondered wheter Rayse might have been the one that originally Shattered Adonalsium (or at least the one who convinced others to help him do it). We know that Adonalsium has an enemy, and maybe Rayse (again, a loathsome, crafty and dangerous person) was back then already working for that enemy. That would possibly also explain Trell, by the way, as maybe another Shard/Vessel that is also working with Adonalsium's enemy. Additionally, this might play a role in how much of Rayse (at least in my personal belief) can still be seen in Odium; Rayse might have a powerup from outside the Shard.

[Pattern King's Wit]

1 hour ago, hoser said:

There are definitely some passionate aspects of Odium, but Passion does not accurately encompass the range of his behaviors, IMO. 

Another hypothesis:

Odium seems to be the opposite of passion. He takes the passions of humans and singers and feeds on them. To get more passion, his Unmade instigate passion in humans (Nergaoul a lust for battle, Ashertmarn a lust for debauchery, etc.).

Odium himself is the Void, he sucks in the passions as his voidlight seems to suck in normal light.

[Peacegiver Spearman]

Hey, I don't post much, but have been reading lately and thought I'd share my thoughts. 

 I was kinda surprised at how much Odium seems to encompass, as well, but there's one point that I think is also important to consider.  I think the letter in the Epigraphs in Words of Radiance is important to this. It says that Rayse "bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." (WOR Hardback American Edition, p. 840). I would think that some of those virtues would include positive aspects of "Passion," like determination, or other positive emotions. Now maybe Rayse is influencing the absence of these virtues in his description of himself, or influencing what he shows Dalinar.

When I first thought of this quote I thought it said that "he is God's own divine hatred" or something similar, but it doesn't. "He bears the weight of" that hatred leaves room for his shard to encompass other aspects as well, but I still think it's an important quote to consider in this. It will be interesting to see whether the name remains as Odium or changes to Passion or something similar (Out of Book of course, I think it's pretty well established in book that he's Odium (which may be direction in and of itself). 

I want to try and figure out where this might fit in, but it is getting kinda late.

[Leyrann Honorspren]

I've personally decided to call the shard Passion except when we're talking about the shard as-being-held-by-Rayse, in which case I'll use Odium.

[Kingsdaughter613 Knight Radiant]

Why is sorrow viewed as a ‘negative’ emotion? The ability to grieve is very important. Mourning is a part of the healing process. It’s actually a very positive force.

Odium does not include love; that likely belongs to Devotion (her original name was love, I believe.) Love is not always passionate though, so I don’t see why it would be here. In fact, it’s usually not viewed as such EXCEPT in a romantic context. And take the lust out - which IS part of Odium - and even that is no longer ‘passionate’. Love is a quiet thing, but so essential. 

I actually usually interpreted Odium as carrying God’s wrath. So ‘Passion’ would not surprise me.

You can also be coldly passionate - just look at Jasnah!

[Bliev Full Shardbearer]

I interpreted this: //"Burning. Overwhelming. Power. It as the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield. It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy. It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory. And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt."//

As indicating "the burden of God's divine hatred"--in that it is everything that God "hates" and the anger shown in the hatred of it, so not just the emotion of hatred, but the embodiment of what God himself would proclaim to hate: selfishness, power, angry, murder, lust, emotion devoid of focus. All of this filtered through what Rayse himself hated--which is probably the idea of God himself and all who now embody portions of him/Adolnasium. It even seems like he's willing to give himself to others as the focus/object of their hate: "blame me--I did this" in order to channel that emotion into Odium's own power--a self-fulfilling cycle of hatred. Sustaining hatred at that level is too much.

Which also, to me, would explain why Odium might have splintered off the more uncontrollable parts of god's hatred: gluttony/lust, passion for the kill, etc. They interfered with his ability to strategize. But I don't know about that. Those splinters now have their own separate intentions, which Odium obviously has no idea might act differently when divorced from his divine hatred. 

[Kingsdaughter613 Knight Radiant]

@Bliev I’m out of upvotes, or I would give you one! I love your idea! It makes a lot of sense, and explains the Void aspects. Of course Odium wants to consume those emotions! The Shard hates those things and wants them gone. 

We seem to have similar ideas about Rayse actually; my instinct was that he hated the idea of Religion in general, God in particular, but was otherwise not that bad a person. Then he became a god... (No, I don’t trust Hoid’s letter. Hoid is not known to be truthful, especially when a lie -or partial truth- serves better. And Rayse was his friend once, so he obviously didn’t always feel this way.)

[Bliev Full Shardbearer]

@Kingsdaughter613 i ran out of upvotes too! I’ve read these boards for so many years but am just learning how to participate on them. Haha! 

I wonder too about Hoid’s particular emotions toward Rayse...i imagine that will be fleshed out sooner or later!!

[Spoolofwhool Stone Shaman]

20 hours ago, Pattern said:

Another hypothesis:

Odium seems to be the opposite of passion. He takes the passions of humans and singers and feeds on them. To get more passion, his Unmade instigate passion in humans (Nergaoul a lust for battle, Ashertmarn a lust for debauchery, etc.).

Odium himself is the Void, he sucks in the passions as his voidlight seems to suck in normal light.

I actually like this, because remember a line from the Dawnsinger text.

Quote

Beware the otherworlders. The traitors. Those with tongues of sweetness, but with minds that lust for blood. Do not take them in. Do not give them succor. Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god.

- Oathbringer, Chapter 117

 

[RShara Unmade]

Odium feeds on passion and emotion.  Maybe a better description of his intent would be Lust?  Void seems more appropriate, but I don't see how that could be an Intent.  Lust/Hunger/Emptiness?

[Youngy Obligator]

The biggest issue to me is that Odium seems to think he is a shard of passion, but Syl directly states that he sucks in emotion, and was the void that humanity brought with them.

These two descriptions seem to be at odds, but both seem to be shown in the text, Odiums raw power definitely feels like Passion when Dalinar feels it, but he also later talks about taking away the emotions and feelings.

I also wonder if Odium is influencing histories.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Youngy

[aemetha Originator]

I don't think passion (his stated intent) and excess (the effect of shardic intent on holders) incompatible with embodying and inspiring hatred and wroth. Passion has two possible outcomes in most cases. It fades, or it turns to hatred. In the case of an excess of passion in lovers, they don't stay passionate lovers for ever, they develop into something more stable and less intense or they bitterly separate. Passionate opponents in a conflict don't stay simply passionate, they find common ground or they hate and try to exterminate the opponent. Passion + excess = odium in other words.

[WhiteLeeopard Scadrian Waffle Cook]

Moash is now the perfect Odium follower and he encompasses what Odium wants quite well I think. Moash is a whipped dog/slave, he obeys, he is a semi-zombie most of the time, with nothing inside him, and the few times he acts is for violence, desruction and death, and always obeying his masters. Thats Odium. Emptiness until he needs destruction.

[Bliev Full Shardbearer]

@Spoolofwhool i think you might be on to something with this—hatred consumes. It gobbles up every positive anything in its path. Gluttony, lust, anger: it leaves no room for anything and sucks the person dry. Odium May see himself as about “passion” but only because he consumes and feeds off of that—turning a person into an empty vessel to do his bidding.

[Darmad Cobalt Guard]

I agree that you are all on to something. Are we sure that "Odium" is the shard's intent? From OB, chpt 56:

"I'm the other one, Dalinar. They call me Odium." (emphasis mine)

Odium is what he is called, but what is he really? Out of curiousity, I looked up odium on several dictionaries. The original latin word meant hatred, but an alternative meaning in modern english is hated. Maybe Odium is just a label assigned by those who knew Rayse, combined with the shards actual intent.

I agree that Hunger or Excess seems more accurate. Or maybe Intemperance.

[Mulk Ferring]

Just now, Darmad said:

I agree that you are all on to something. Are we sure that "Odium" is the shard's intent? From OB, chpt 56:

"I'm the other one, Dalinar. They call me Odium." (emphasis mine)

Odium is what he is called, but what is he really? Out of curiousity, I looked up odium on several dictionaries. The original latin word meant hatred, but an alternative meaning in modern english is hated. Maybe Odium is just a label assigned by those who knew Rayse, combined with the shards actual intent.

I agree that Hunger or Excess seems more accurate. Or maybe Intemperance.

If you're going to doubt the name given him by the other Shards, then you have to doubt the names of all of the Shards. Honor calls him Odium in the vision where he tells Dalinar he is dead, so we have the word of a fellow Shardholder on what he is.  For me, that's enough. Calling himself passion is no more than a word game, a deflection from his true nature, so that people will not see that what he is does is hate, and destroys what he hates.

Because the Shard is held by a loathsome and crafty individual (Hoid'd description), he interprets the Shard's intent in a dangerous way.  He lies, misdirects, shows up as a bountiful being offering freedom and justice and people buy it.  He's an interesting analog to Satan, in fact, who can appear as an angel of light if he wishes; you have to know him by his deeds, understand the truth of his fancy words to avoid being trapped by it, because he can make what is wrong look really good or feel good, or at least look unstoppable, thereby engendering despair leading to betrayal. 

I think you have to look to Venli's meeting with Dalinar to understand what Odium actually has planned. He's not going to spare any unless he must.  He wants to kill Cultivation, destroy anything left of those who opposed them and then get the hell out of dodge and go looking for another mark.  He's the closest thing to real evil we've seen.  It's not that hatred is in and of itself wrong; it's that hatred in the absence of any context, hate for the sake of hate, is always wrong, always evil.  This is who Odium is.  Raw, unabated hatred, cloaked in a fair semblance so he can get close, stick the knife in and TWIST.