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[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

2,388 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

and I'd appreciate it if you don't try to ignore other people's opinons by reducing them to 'cheap ploys.'

I'm not reducing anyone's opinion. All I'm saying, that the argumentative tactic is a cheap ploy. What does this have to do with opinions?

7 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Why are you bringing up Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar here? They may get criticised elsewhere, but in this thread, it's Adolin that recieves the brunt of the criticism, so there's no point bringing them up in this context.

Because the meta-argument was made in a larger scope. I just responded in kind.

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Furthermore, I've never complained about Adolin receiving harsh treatment, nor would I care about that. My issue is that people are giving Adolin unfair treatment.

Furthermore, it originally was something between maxal and myself. You were the one, that interfered in it.

10 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

In point of fact, Dalinar asks himself whether he could forgive Adolin, and tellingly, he doesn't answer the question to himself. When viewed in context, with how Dalinar has been pushing his expectations onto Adolin from the day of his birth it seems a clear sign to me that the matter is not done with. If you see differently, then that is your prerogative.

I really don't get it. He's seeing, that he was wrong in his perception of Adolin, but says at the same time, that he himself wasn't the best role model either ("but then, couldn't he [Dalinar] forgive someone for that"), so if someonce could forgive him, then Dalinar. Remember that this was after Dalinar accepted his pain and shortly before he began to write "Oathbringer, My Glory and My Shame".

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4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'm not reducing anyone's opinion. All I'm saying, that the argumentative tactic is a cheap ploy. What does this have to do with opinions?

Maxal and I brought up some issues with how we feel Adolin is being unfairly treated by some members in this thread, or even the larger fandom. Instead of having a frank discussion about why we believe that to be the case and you don't, you use words like 'victimising' and 'cheap ploys' to lessen the legitimacy of our line of questioning. That is reducing our opinions.

 

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Because the meta-argument was made in a larger scope. I just responded in kind.

I see.

 

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I really don't get it. He's seeing, that he was wrong in his perception of Adolin, but says at the same time, that he himself wasn't the best role model either ("but then, couldn't he [Dalinar] forgive someone for that"), so if someonce could forgive him, then Dalinar. Remember that this was after Dalinar accepted his pain and shortly before he began to write "Oathbringer, My Glory and My Shame".

My opinion is that this was a clear piece of foreshadowing hinting at a future plot development between Dalinar and Adolin, in terms of their relationship, perhaps leading into the revelation of Evi's death.

If you don't share this opinion, I'd like to have a discussion with on the subject, if you're willing.

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2 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Maya is communicating with and actively helping Adolin. It started before the perpendicularity so you can't use that as an excuse. If it were anyone else, would you really hesitate to say that they're bonding a spren? Why does Adolin need to jump through extra hoops?

He's supposdly reviving a dead blade. Nobody in thousands of years has done this. This isn't some normal spren that he's potentially bonding, you can't compare the two. Why would Adolin not have to jump through extra hoops? 

29 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I simply find it odd that while Adolin is doing the same thing as everyone else and their spren, people seem to go out of their way to find answers out of nowhere to negate what he is doing.

Again, Adolin is not doing the same thing, its not that hard to understand. Reviving a dead blade, there is no precedent, it has never happened, so there is no process, you can't compare the two. Nobody is going out of their way to find answers to negate what is potentially happening, I find it to be logical to question something that has never happened before, and try to find reasons as to why it might or might not be happening, and what other things could potentially come from what we've seen. Could he potentially revive her? Yes. Do I think we've seen enough in the text to say he is 100% going to revive her? No.

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14 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

If you don't share this opinion, I'd like to have a discussion with on the subject, if you're willing.

Not in this thread. We've already been derailing it enough as it is.

14 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Maxal and I brought up some issues with how we feel Adolin is being unfairly treated by some members in this thread, or even the larger fandom. Instead of having a frank discussion about why we believe that to be the case and you don't, you use words like 'victimising' and 'cheap ploys' to lessen the legitimacy of our line of questioning. That is reducing our opinions.

Calling out manipulative argumentative tactics is now reducing opinions. Gotcha.

Edited by SLNC
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45 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

He's supposdly reviving a dead blade. Nobody in thousands of years has done this. This isn't some normal spren that he's potentially bonding, you can't compare the two. Why would Adolin not have to jump through extra hoops? 

 

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Again, Adolin is not doing the same thing, its not that hard to understand. Reviving a dead blade, there is no precedent, it has never happened, so there is no process, you can't compare the two. Nobody is going out of their way to find answers to negate what is potentially happening, I find it to be logical to question something that has never happened before, and try to find reasons as to why it might or might not be happening, and what other things could potentially come from what we've seen. Could he potentially revive her? Yes. Do I think we've seen enough in the text to say he is 100% going to revive her? No.

 

When I say extra hoops I do not mean the bonding process. There will certainly be some extra hoops he'll have to deal with there. My issue was that what we've seen Maya and Adolin do far should be enough to confirm that they are on the path to being a Radiant, and that people seem to desire extra confirmation when this would be enough if it were any other character and spren.

I can understand Maya's current status causing pause, but in light of that and what she's currently accomplished, I believe it can safely be said that this is the plot Brandon is advancing at the moment.

Edited by Mage of Lirigon
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34 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

My issue was that what we've seen Maya and Adolin do far should be enough to confirm that they are on the path to being a Radiant

Are they definitely on the path to being a Radiant? @Mage of Lirigon Is this how it normally happens with all the other Radiants? Why are you so sure of this?

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Just now, insert_anagram_here said:

Are they definitely on the path to being a Radiant? @Mage of Lirigon Is this how it normally happens with all the other Radiants? Why are you so sure of this?

Seeing someone communicate a Radiantspren, that spren going beyond what a normal spren would do to try and help that person seems par for the course with what we've seen in the beginning of other Radiant's journeys.

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3 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

going beyond what a normal spren would do

Do you mean because she appeared in 7 heartbeats instead of 10? 

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36 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

seems par for the course with what we've seen in the beginning of other Radiant's journeys.

I dunno. The typical Radiant journey involves a personal struggle on the part of the human. Where's Adolin's?

There's plenty of room for Something Else, in the way of requirements for restoring an oath. I imagine that Dalinar may be able to overwrite the broken oath with Adolin's living oath; but Adolin has to do all the legwork to 'convince' the spren-husk that he is worthy.

The backdrop for all this discussion is Shallan+Adolin; and specifically how likely it is for Adolin to die in the next (or subsequent) book, thus reviving the Shallan+Kaladin ship. Much effort has been devoted to arguing the point "Adolin is set up for slaughter" with "What about Maya?". There are two general points

1) These are not mutually exclusive. In fact the "climax" of this arc could well result Adolin's death -- some act of self-sacrifice could be required to revive the spren.

2) From the perspective of the topic: there is a non-trivial chance that Adolin will die. Certainly more than the other main characters. How likely is it? I'd guess somewhere between 5% and 35% that he dies in the very next book. If you agree in principal, but think it worthwhile to disclaim that 5% is too low or 35% is too high, you are haggling over price.

My own prediction is that Adolin will survive the next book (so long as it is < 550,000 words; i.e. not much longer than OB); but that there will be a buildup of tensions between Adolin and Shallan. In this scenario, I would like to see Jasnah/Kalladin as a juxtaposition of Adolin/Shallan; which would lead to internal conflict, jealousy, and self-chastizing on Shallan's part. If Maya revival happens, I think Dalinar will serve as the catalyst, and that the arc will be parallel to but separate from Adolin & Shallan's conflict. Lift will fall in love with a bakery.

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5 minutes ago, lu-tze said:

Lift will fall in love with a bakery.

Well, is there any doubt about that? I certainly hope not. This one is clear as day.

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55 minutes ago, lu-tze said:

The backdrop for all this discussion is Shallan+Adolin; and specifically how likely it is for Adolin to die in the next (or subsequent) book, thus reviving the Shallan+Kaladin ship. Much effort has been devoted to arguing the point "Adolin is set up for slaughter" with "What about Maya?". There are two general points

1) These are not mutually exclusive. In fact the "climax" of this arc could well result Adolin's death -- some act of self-sacrifice could be required to revive the spren.

2) From the perspective of the topic: there is a non-trivial chance that Adolin will die. Certainly more than the other main characters. How likely is it? I'd guess somewhere between 5% and 35% that he dies in the very next book. If you agree in principal, but think it worthwhile to disclaim that 5% is too low or 35% is too high, you are haggling over price.

Thank you for adding this context and perspective to the discussion. I had not wanted to jump into the argument too much but I agree that it originated with a question of whether Adolin was likely to die in the next two books and I don’t see how whether or not he revives and bonds Maya has any bearing on that question. I see no reason why one would rule out the other, as you said they are not mutually exclusive.

For my part, if Adolin bonds Maya I want it to be earned (it certainly isn’t so far but that doesn’t mean it won’t be). Part of earning it for me would likely mean intent on his part has to enter into it at some point.

At the same time, if Adolin will die I want it to be meaningful to the story but I see no reason to think it wouldn’t be. And I don’t think his death has to mean that his part in the story was wasted. We’ve certainly seen that Brandon can create stories where a viewpoint character’s death has an enormous and lasting impact on other characters.

Spoiler

Kelsier in Mistborn era 1, for one

I think a lot of arguing for or against either outcome in this thread seems to come from fear that it won’t be well developed or justified. I get some of those concerns but personally think we have reason to hope for better.

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2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Calling out manipulative argumentative tactics is now reducing opinions. Gotcha.

Why is your first assumption that we are using 'manipulative argumentative tactics'? Why do you simply move to dismiss our opinions instead of having an actual discussion about it? The fact that you do so is what I mean about reducing opinions.

 

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Do you mean because she appeared in 7 heartbeats instead of 10? 

That and she actually moved to save his life, encouraged him when he nearly died as well.

 

1 hour ago, lu-tze said:

I dunno. The typical Radiant journey involves a personal struggle on the part of the human. Where's Adolin's?

Adolin's journey is just beginning. Conflict will come later,as it always does with Radiants. I'm of the belief that Dalinar murdering his mother may be some role in that as well.

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I hope Adolin will have major trouble dealing with Dalinar's murder of Evi. I really want for him to get a bigger role, or even just an engaging narrative. It's thematically 100% Stormlight stuff for a character to have a big battle of conscience over whether or not they can forgive someone. So I think it is a possibility. That being said Oathbringer didn't exactly imbue hope in me about Sanderson's handling of Adolin and overall writing ability. He was handled... hmm... disappointingly. I hope that's something everyone here can agree on, at least in terms of our dear Highprince. :lol:

I can imagine this going multiple ways. We get a scene where Dalinar invites Adolin for a private talk in his own chambers, calls off the servants and the guards. He makes Adolin sit down, turns away with hands locked behind his back. He starts talking about the Rift. He asks him what he remembers about it, maybe. And then he tells Adolin that it wasn't Sadeas who was directing the warcamp at the time. He tells him that his father, Dalinar Kholin, wasn't overtaken by shock and unable to direct the battle at the time. No, Dalinar Kholin received the news of Evi's disappearance. Dalinar Kholin ordered the messengers carrying terms of peace to be shot where they stood. And yes, Dalinar Kholin ordered the entire city burned to a crisp. 

I don't think Adolin will be able to speak to his father after hearing that. Sure, Navani and Jasnah will try to talk to him, but even they are shocked by his actions at the time. Sadeas had gladly taken the blame for the torching of the Rift, and thus had history been written. What will they think of Dalinar once they learn this fact about him? It won't go over smoothly with anybody. (Least of all with Toh, but that's another story.)

Now let's return to reality. I would want this to be the case. I would want for there to be a lot of character interaction centered around this event, from major character reactions to outright conflict if anyone is angered enough over the news. But I'm not certain that Sanderson is going to write any of this. If Oathbringer is anything to go by, our main cast's reactions would be listed in a cursory manner and dumbed down for the sake of advancing the plot quickly, and interesting interactions - characters driving the plot - would take a backseat to mechanical storytelling that so exemplifies Sanderson's flaws as a writer. He can accomplish outstandingly good writing and plotting, strike a balance between characters and plotting (or create a strong enough illusion of the former) and so on. I'm just not sure if that will be the case.

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Don't want to get into it much  but here's my 2 cents.

Let me begin with this WoB.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/60-firefight-san-francisco-signing/#e6662

That outright says that'd you need the Radiant who broke the oath in order to revive a Shardblade. So yes, Adolin should have to go through extra hoops to circumvent that.

Also there're some questions that need to be answered.

And even if he does it, would that bond begin at the level of the third oath? How else would Adolin be able to wield Maya? At that point she would be a higher order spren and those require "checks", as Syl says, to grant their benefits. Why should Adolin be able to bypass the first three oaths? And wouldn't that contradict with the "Journey before destination" part of the first ideal? Maybe he won't and he'll have to do without a Shardblade for a while until he catches up. Wouldn't that be fun! Remove some of his privileges and let's see how he does then!  Also I have to wonder about this: people are fitting Adolin into an Edgedancer because that's his blade type. Where would people put Adolin if they were choosing without the blade influencing it? The prostitute incident screams Windrunner to me.

Or he could be Willshaper judging by this:

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And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiance, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.  ~Words of Radiance, chapter 7

My point is that Adolin fits the Edgedancers as much as other any number of the rest of the orders. why are people only putting him into the shoes of an Edgedancer? Just because of his blade? 

And to become a Radiant shouldn't the spren choose you? Maya got stuck with Adolin. What is to say that if he indeed revives her she won't immediately break the bond, if indeed reving a blade results in one, and return to Shademar because she doesn't see him as an Edgedancer or doesn't want to bond anyone because she's still sore by her first experience. Would Adolin be able to bond another Nahel spren? Is he broken enough for that? Just because his mother, whom he loved, died? Can every orphan become a Radiant by that logic? And I know that sound familiar with Lift's story but she didn't become a Radiant because her mother died. The Cultivation spren bonded her especially because of the congitive side effects of her Nightwatcher wish.

And as has been mentioned before the process of reviving a Blade is quite different than the bonding of a Nahel spren.

Also has Adolin even thought something like "Yeah, I should make revive Maya. I should make a concentrated effort on it" or is it all ""I'm sorry I have to use you" or "You're such a nice blade and I respect and talk to you”? If his only path to Radiancy entails "He revives Maya by being perfect and not even with concentrated effort" then, sorry, that doesn't make him interesting. Just more of the same, everything falling on his lap.

Edited by DimChatz
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51 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Why do you simply move to dismiss our opinions instead of having an actual discussion about it?

Because discussing how someone subjectively feels about something never yields results.

A: Well I believe that.

B: I think, you're wrong, because other characters get as much flak.

A: Yeah, no I still believe it is unfair.

B: Well, then I guess this discussion is over.

There. Discussed.

Also, there is a lot of the tone. "But whatever Adolin does, the readership doesn't deem it to be enough." was the paraphrased sentence, that evoked my reaction. Why? Simple. It shoved Adolin in the role of the victim, because apparently the big bunch of the readership is against him.

I don't see how this is not victimizing Adolin. And victimization is an often used tool to manipulate emotions and thus gain support. Thus a "manipulative argument tactic".

There. My thought process.

Edited by SLNC
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1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:
3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Do you mean because she appeared in 7 heartbeats instead of 10? 

That and she actually moved to save his life, encouraged him when he nearly died as well.

Yeah but it takes an amount of heartbeats to summon her because, unlike normal nahel bond spren, Maya is actually dead. So actually, this is not how it normally happens with all the other Radiants.

As far as, "she actually moved to save his life' you are referring to this part, right?

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Someone leaped onto the Fused from behind. A figure in tattered clothing, a scrabbling, angry woman with brown vines instead of skin and scratched-out eyes. Adolin gaped as his deadeye raked long nails across the Fused’s face, causing him to stumble backward, humming of all things. He rammed his sword into the spren’s chest, but it didn’t faze her in the least. She just let out a screech like the one she’d made at Adolin when he’d tried to summon his Blade, and kept attacking. Adolin shook himself. Flee, idiot! Holding his wounded gut—each step causing a shock of pain—he lurched across the bridge toward Shallan. 

This happens in Shadesmar, which is the only place she actually manifests. It doesn't mean that she can manifest properly in the Physical realm, other than in the Shardblade form with an attached polestone (which is kind of a fabrial?). So, currently, I'm still skeptical of how the first ideal can be said in order to create the nahel bond, assuming of course, that the same process as a normal Radiant is still in effect.

Edited by insert_anagram_here
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19 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Because discussing how someone subjectively feels about something never yields results.

A: Well I believe that.

B: I think, you're wrong, because other characters get as much flak.

A: Yeah, no I still believe it is unfair.

B: Well, then I guess this discussion is over.

There. Discussed.

Thank you for sharing. I must say, though I can't speak for others, I wasn't intending any discussion of your feelings toward Adolin, but rather about the readership, with a focus on this thread, was putting Adolin under an unfair expectations.

 

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Also, there is a lot of the tone. "But whatever Adolin does, the readership doesn't deem it to be enough." was the paraphrased sentence, that evoked my reaction. Why? Simple. It shoved Adolin in the role of the victim, because apparently the big bunch of the readership is against him.

I don't see how this is not victimizing Adolin. And victimization is an often used tool to manipulate emotions and thus gain support. Thus a "manipulative argument tactic".

There. My thought process.

Again, thank you for sharing.

"Shoved" is an interesting word choice here, as it implies that (again, focused on the individuals responding in this thread). I am aware that this tactic is often used in debates, and while I don't understand what it was that I or maxal said, to prompt you to believe this was our intent , I can understand why you may have come to that conclusion, though I don't know what experiences you've had previously.

Edited by Mage of Lirigon
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I don't think anyone is thinking of this thread as a formal debate, @SLNC. This is a fan discussion, and honestly I think acting aggressive and treating this thread as a place for some kind of serious, hard-facts debate is wrong-headed. There are a million ways to interpret an author's words, and not even WoBs are hard canon until they're actually printed in paper. Personally, I don't have a hard opinion on Adolin or the entire love triangle - sure, I feel disappointed and that some things could've been done better (as I've made clear here and elsewhere), but I also found a lot to like in how the love triangle was resolved. I think now'd be a good time to remember that this isn't Reddit, and that the goal isn't to win an argument or (especially) to convince anyone that they're totally wrong. I mean, you can do that, but ultimately this is just discussion for the sake of discussion itself, right?

Edited by Vissy
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7 minutes ago, Vissy said:

There are a million ways to interpret an author's words, and not even WoBs are hard canon until they're actually printed in paper.

I don't mind debating about possible interpretations. My beef was with the meta-argument made, that Adolin is treated unfairly by the readership, when many other characters also get much flak.

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I see. I suppose we've talked so much about Adolin lately in this thread that other characters haven't seemed very much in the forefront. 

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I honestly do not want to entice any more disparity, but can we hypothesize for a minute a scenario that Odium might try to gain ground on Adolin's psych and manipulate him, through Maya's revival? If he has such a strong passion to become a Radiant, that could end up being his weakness.

There is still a lot of mystery surrounding hard magic physics, especially how Fused 'souls' reincarnate to other Singer bodies and how Moash changed into Vyre, so maybe Sanderson deliberately wants us to hope for her successful revival only to reveal that wasn't normally possible in the first place. That would make an emotionally charged plot twist. 

Bare with me.

I found this bit on the Mayalaran thread:

On 11/15/2017 at 4:00 PM, Aminar said:
On 11/15/2017 at 3:49 PM, lookingglass said:

On the topic of dead spren didn't anyone find it weird that the spren's eyes were scratched out and when you kill someone with a shardblade their eyes burn? Is it the spren imitating what happens to humans in the physical realm o something else? Eyes are windows to the soul after all, so does that mean the line between a spren's spiritual realm is broken?

It's interesting. There's some odd levels of connection to eyes and magic on Roshar. In the first book Kal and Szeth both blink several timed while activating Lashings(Haven't looked through the other two books to see if it continues). Red Eyes are a big deal related to the thrill. Radiants get light eyes. Rosharan blades(but only Rosharan blades) burn out the eyes. Somehow in this case it reminded me of the gems used to make a connection to the blade. But beyond that I couldn't say. That's just an intuition. 

All those things together do suggest a connection between eyes and the spiritual realm on Roshar. 

If there is a connection of eyes and spiritual realm, maybe that means that Maya's connection to her spirit is severed. And there is also how Fused eyes glow differently than Radiants'. Could this mean that in order to attach Maya back to her spiritual part, Voidlight can be used instead of Stormlight? 

At the end of OB, Mr. T was discussing with Odium that he shouldn't challenge Dalinar now that he has achieved Perpendicularity, he is too powerful. So it stands to reason that Odium will be planning to turn the tables somehow.

What about the trap that Sja-anat mentioned? She said she was compelled to make the Oathgate not work as they expected it and so our group of bad-chull heroes ended up in Shadesmar. After a small adventure in the land of spren, Fused were waiting for them at the Oathgate. So Odium was expecting that they would attempt to leave from there, so this was still part for the trap plan. And then this happened:

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The Fused idly brought the lance back around, then fluidly rammed it right through Adolin’s stomach. Adolin gasped at the sharp spike of pain, doubling over, feeling blood on his hands. The Fused seemed almost bored as he yanked the lance out, the tip glistening red with Adolin’s blood, then dropped the weapon. The creature landed and instead unsheathed a wicked-looking sword. He advanced, slapped away Adolin’s weak attempt at a parry, and raised the sword to strike. Someone leaped onto the Fused from behind. A figure in tattered clothing, a scrabbling, angry woman with brown vines instead of skin and scratched-out eyes. Adolin gaped as his deadeye raked long nails across the Fused’s face, causing him to stumble backward, humming of all things. He rammed his sword into the spren’s chest, but it didn’t faze her in the least. She just let out a screech like the one she’d made at Adolin when he’d tried to summon his Blade, and kept attacking. Adolin shook himself. Flee, idiot! Holding his wounded gut—each step causing a shock of pain—he lurched across the bridge toward Shallan.  

The Fused changed weapon. Why not finish Adolin off with the lance? Maybe this sword had significance? And it was supposed to strike Adolin, but it hit Maya instead.

Thoughts?
 

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Why not finish Adolin off with the lance? Ultimately because he needed a bit of plot armour to survive an unarmed encounter with a Fused. ;)

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2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

If he has such a strong passion to become a Radiant, that could end up being his weakness.

He doesn't really have much passion to become a Radiant- his self-esteem is too low for that. But I see your point. It would be quite a twist.

 

Quote

The Fused changed weapon. Why not finish Adolin off with the lance? Maybe this sword had significance? And it was supposed to strike Adolin, but it hit Maya instead.

Thoughts?

Lances are not really made to stab at close range combat though. They're clumsy weapons. A sword could have been easier to manuever with.  Though again, I see your point. It's an interesting theory.

I mean, trying to corrupt rather than kill Adolin doesn't have much percentage in that scenario, especially if Dalinar had fallen.  But it really would be quite the twist. 

Edited by Mage of Lirigon
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3 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Lances are not really made to stab at close range combat though. They're clumsy weapons. A sword could have been easier to manuever with.

Correct, that is also what I've been thinking, when I have read it at first, but... it still doesn't make much sense. He already stabbed Adolin with the lance. He already was at the perfect range to stab again.

Why stop?

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The wicked-looking sword wasn't described to have a yellow-gold glow or anything of that sort, so I doubt it held Odium's Investiture. The Fused was probably just at ease and couldn't be bothered to finish Adolin off as if he was fighting seriously, so he decided to take his time and make a more satisfying kill. Until Maya jumped on him, at least. But honestly, if the sword would have been something special, I think Sanderson would have signaled it somehow with a special descriptor, like a specific gemstone or coloring of the metal. 

Edited by Vissy
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