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[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

2,388 posts in this topic

First post on a new page and the amount of scrolling needed is already staggering! :o

I haven't had a chance to read all your post as I must get back to work (and I don't have a 2 hour lunch :P) .

I did really like this part though

8 minutes ago, Alderant said:
On 2/1/2018 at 6:40 AM, Starla said:

It’s not clear in the text whether Shallan knows the extent of Kaladin’s feeling for her. Probably not. But right before this scene, she is having a conversation with herself about which man to choose. Radiant says, “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months.” She obviously considers Kaladin a viable option, to the point she is considering breaking it off with Adolin to pursue Kaladin. So either she knows Kaladin has feelings for her, or she is so confident in herself that she thinks she can win him over despite his aloofness.

This is another issue that feels disrespectful to Kaladin. I don’t ever see Shallan considering what he might think or feel. She objectifies him as something to be stared at ("I appreciate a nice picture when I see one.”), but never considers how any of her actions or decisions might affect him. At the very least, I would think their friendship would have developed far enough that she would wonder how he might feel about it all. But there is no sign in the text that she considers him at all, aside from what she will get out of it.

This stems from an issue within Shallan, and I think it has to do with her deliberate degradation of him throughout Oathbringer. This is part of point #1

It seems to me that shallan ever since the Helaran debacle only tries to view Kaladin shallowly(sp?) I think this is because she is afraid it will unbury the truth that Kaladin murdered (In shallans heart) / killed Helaran. So if she just doesn't think about Kaladin deeper (like some of the reasons she liked him in WoR is that he was clever)  then she doesn't have to worry about thinking about Helaran. I do think that part of her attraction to Kaladin is buried with that memory as a result and it just leaks out as only physical attraction I guess....

Man I wish I could form my thoughts into sentences as well as you guys can.

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9 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

First post on a new page and the amount of scrolling needed is already staggering! :o

Sorry about that, haha. I’m kind of known for being longwinded. 

 

10 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

It seems to me that shallan ever since the Helaran debacle only tries to view Kaladin shallowly(sp?) I think this is because she is afraid it will unbury the truth that Kaladin murdered (In shallans heart) / killed Helaran. So if she just doesn't think about Kaladin deeper (like some of the reasons she liked him in WoR is that he was clever)  then she doesn't have to worry about thinking about Helaran. I do think that part of her attraction to Kaladin is buried with that memory as a result and it just leaks out as only physical attraction I guess....

Man I wish I could form my thoughts into sentences as well as you guys can.

Good points. I think you’re onto something. 

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1 hour ago, Alderant said:

I will make this brief, since this will be part of the coming analysis, but Shallan's habits of running from her problems began with Lyn covering up her mother's death.

You're referring to Shallan's father here right? It's Lin Davar. Lyn is the girl in OB. Just a quick correction. Awesome post, though.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lin_Davar

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lyn

Edited by DimChatz
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2 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

You're referring to Shallan's father here right? It's Lin Davar. Lyn is the girl in OB. Just a quick correction. Awesome post, though.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lin_Davar

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lyn

Thank you for the clarification. I've never actually read the hard copies, haha, but you are correct. I was referring to Lin Davar.

Edit: Corrected original post with the correct spelling.

Edited by Alderant
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@Alderant

Thank you. That was a lot to read, but it was worth it. Some of the most in depth and - most importantly - coherent analysis and argumentation regarding Shallan in OB, that I have read so far. A few points though.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

As I've hopefully explained here, it's not that Shallan is dependent on Adolin, per se, but rather that he is and represents what she thinks she wants. Unless she comes to some startling self-awareness between books 3 & 4, I seriously doubt Shallan intentionally divorce Adolin because of a change of heart. As of the end of OB, she is largely still unaware of who she is. She thinks she is "Shallan" because Adolin says so, but I think the arrival of her brothers is going to point out that she's not being honest. Her brothers will likely recognize she is missing her love of natural science. They will probably remark on the changes in her personality. This will happen over time, but in large part she wants to be with Adolin. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably not divorce Shallan. He's tired of courting, and Shallan is pretty much the girl of his dreams. He's finally got her hand in marriage. Yes, he might step back if Shallan told him that she loves Kaladin, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

You have explained that. Masterfully and convincingly so, in fact. But, at least, when I talk about dependence, I talk about her dependence of him to not drop the "Shallan" persona/mask. Adolin is basically the only reason, that she is even keeping "Shallan" around. Like you already said, Veil is much closer to the true Shallan, that we've been reading before.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Divorce is a big deal, and I think one of the reasons it's so touted is because we all like Adolin. Divorce is the easiest way for us to possibly have a Shalladin relationship without getting rid of Adolin entirely. "Adolin and Shallan get divorced, and then we still get to enjoy Adolin while Shallan and Kaladin get together."

Well, if I'm personally honest, I'm more on the side of: I don't dislike Adolin, but I'm surely not attached to him. I do agree with you though, that divorce is mainly tauted as the main option because of that. Many really like Adolin, though I personally don't understand why, because as a literary character he kinda falls flat IMHO.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

In terms of plot, however, what do we stand to gain from this, other than the pleasure of all three characters staying alive? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It creates unnecessary relationship drama (that dreaded "love triangle" thing we all hate), but other than that, it doesn't serve the plot. Adolin is not a main character, so most of the angst from that will come from Shallan, which we don't want to read. In fact, isn't that the exact thing that most of us are against? Plus, Brandon doesn't really do relationship drama like we would see in a more romance-centric plot.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Discussing the possibility of Adolin's death kind of seems to have become a bit of a taboo as there are so many fans of him, that are latching onto him, but it is a real possibility.

I know, that you've been joining us later than I expected :D , but I'd like to refer to an older post by @DeployParachute , where he outlined why Adolin is in a situation, where he has is ripe to be plucked from the story as an impactful tragic story device.

On 4.12.2017 at 10:11 PM, DeployParachute said:

See, this was part of my problem with realizing that Adolin was going to have little to no character arc or narrative during OB. Let's break down where this character stands now after the flop that I believe the handling of his narrative has been.

1. He has no remaining internal conflicts to address or resolve, no (meaningful) flaws to explore or confront. 

2. He had no external conflicts with other characters too explore or confront. The Sadeas plot had gone nowhere, he doesn't have to be king, he isn't competing for Shallan's affection anymore.

So, if Adolin does not have any more personal character arcs or growth to achieve (and no, sorry, I do not see "figure out how to revive my dead shardblade" as very important to the greater narrative), what purpose is he going to serve within the future books. Glad you asked ( though I know you didn't):

1. Adolin has now been painted as the stabilizing force for Shallan's personality issues. He is someone who is heavily depended on by her moving forward. If he were absent, Shallan likely would be forced to do something about her condition sooner.

2. Clearly, Kaladin and Adolin have grown closer as companions. I'm not going to call them best buds yet, but out of all the characters in the narrative outside of bridge four, Adolin is right up there with Dalinar with regards to respect and a sense of dependability that Kaladin has.

3. Everyone in the narrative (other than clearly defined antagonist elements) likes Adolin, and don't have any serious problems with him. He is a very strong and prominent figure in what remains of Alethi society

4. He is the only Kholin to not have any measure of Radiancy

Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic.

This is part of the reason I was a little distraught over his end state at OB, because without something for him to actively do (especially with regards to himself), it certainly seems a good probability that his days are numbered.

Additionally to that, Adolin (or his equivalent) died in The Way of Kings Prime, it is not much of an indicator, but from what I've been gathering his role in that book was similar to his current role in Stormlight - so I wouldn't be too surprised if he soon has outlived his... usefulness. I've always seen Adolin more as a tool employed by the author, which is probably also why he lacked a lot of deeper characterization. He was not worth it to be really fleshed out, because he was always planned to die.

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7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That was a lot to read, but it was worth it. Some of the most in depth and - most importantly - coherent analysis and argumentation regarding Shallan in OB, that I have read so far.

Thanks! A lot of thought has been going into this. When I finally get to that in-depth character analysis, though, I'll probably just post that I'm doing it and link an external document, haha.

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You have explained that. Masterfully and convincingly so, in fact. But, at least, when I talk about dependence, I talk about her dependence of him to not drop the "Shallan" persona/mask. Adolin is basically the only reason, that she is even keeping "Shallan" around. Like you already said, Veil is much closer to the true Shallan, that we've been reading before.

I can get behind that definition.

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Additionally to that, Adolin (or his equivalent) died in The Way of Kings Prime, it is not much of an indicator, but from what I've been gathering his role in that book was similar to his current role in Stormlight - so I wouldn't be too surprised if he soon has outlived his... usefulness. I've always seen Adolin more as a tool employed by the author, which is probably also why he lacked a lot of deeper characterization. He was not worth it to be really fleshed out, because he was always planned to die.

...I've never actually read Prime, but if that's true than my points about Adolin not being important to the author are even more valid, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Discussing the possibility of Adolin's death kind of seems to have become a bit of a taboo as there are so many fans of him, that are latching onto him, but it is a real possibility.

I know, that you've been joining us later than I expected :D , but I'd like to refer to an older post by @DeployParachute , where he outlined why Adolin is in a situation, where he has is ripe to be plucked from the story as an impactful tragic story device.

I don't mind taboo. It's a great planet. No, wait, that's Naboo...Anyway, I really do like to consider where the plot is going. Drafting an epic fantasy plot really makes you look at how other authors have crafted their stories and what is important versus what is not... I mean, I doubt my story will ever go anywhere important (it's something creatively cathartic for me), but it's given me a new, objective insight into these characters and why they're portrayed a certain way within the roles they're meant to fill. And I really do feel that Adolin's death is an important idea to consider, especially given that his death will affect several main characters...Of course, I also theorize that the Stormlight Archive is going to end in disaster to set up the final arc in the Cosmere as a whole, so take that as you will.

And thanks for the DeployParachute quote. I think I might have glanced at his post, but it's thorough and goes pretty well with what's been in my head.

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1 hour ago, Alderant said:
6 hours ago, Isilel said:

Come on, now! This quote:

"Kaladin had never had  much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless".  Chapter 102, "Celebrant".

is from Kaladin's own PoV! It is when he is visiting the spren art merchant  and when he also sees the picture from the court of Gods.

Aaand yes, you're right that this is from Kal's POV, but taking this one line in Oathbringer to prove your point ignores both the context that follows (as SLNC pointed out) and the fact that, while Kaladin himself never had time for art (he was a soldier, always consumed with caring for him men), I think there is ample evidence in WoR and Oathbringer that he appreciates it. This is not a focus for this post, so I won't say more. I will be doing a reread of the entire SA soon, so I will look for evidence to support my statement at that time.

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

Edited by Dreamstorm
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28 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Thank you for the clarification. 

No problem!:)

30 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I've never actually read the hard copies, haha, but you are correct. I was referring to Lin Davar.

Neither have I... Or, wait... Are e-books considered hard copies? Nah, I'm kidding. Also here'another fun one. Shallan's con-woman teacher in WoR is spelled Tyn and not Tin... Man Shallan knows many people with similar names... Can we expect a character named Tin?

13 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I don't mind taboo. It's a great planet. No, wait, that's Naboo...

And here I thought you'd be partial to Alderaan...

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18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

@Dreamstorm Excellent points! I missed that similarity entirely! That is a well earned cookie, especially the analysis at the end.

Edit: And I realized I didn't say this, but thank you. I put a lot of thought into my posts.

Spoiler

Over-the-top-Reeses-Peanut-Butter-Cookie

 

15 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

No problem!:)

Neither have I... Or, wait... Are e-books considered hard copies? Nah, I'm kidding. Also here'another fun one. Shallan's con-woman teacher in WoR is spelled Tyn and not Tin... Man Shallan knows many people with similar names... Can we expect a character named Tin?

And here I thought you'd be partial to Alderaan...

Hahaha! You get a cookie too! That one made me laugh!

Spoiler

4574068.jpg

Edit: And for the record, yes, I'm considering an e-book a hard copy. I have only ever read these books on audio--excepting the novellas (which I've both read and listened to) and White Sand comics, of course.

Edited by Alderant
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29 minutes ago, Alderant said:

...I've never actually read Prime, but if that's true than my points about Adolin not being important to the author are even more valid, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

In the same vein... I also read, that Adolin's role in Stormlight evolved way differently than in the first draft of TWoK in 2002, so I'd still take that as an indicator with a grain of salt. Still, I find it very odd, that a PoV character with multiple chapters in each of the three books released hasn't yet been given a good and deep characterization. It really seems like it isn't worth the page time, because he won't be around that much longer.

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Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

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4 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Maybe you should... Read And Find Out? ;) :ph34r:

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Just now, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Because people still like talking about it?

At least we're trying to keep it to one thread, and redirecting people here when they bring it up elsewhere, instead of blowing up every other thread with this topic. Also, this isn't just a discussion about the love triangle. This is a Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin discussion. We talk about all three characters in alternating patterns, though Shallan specifically is a large part of the discussion.

No one's forcing you to read it though, so if you don't want to read it, don't. Comments like this, when people are clearly still discussing and enjoying themselves, and when we're actually trying to keep it contained, are kind of ascerbic and abrasive. Put your discontent in the "What do you think has been discussed to death" thread.

That said, if you have an actual thought about the discussion, I'm all ears!

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21 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! 

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth).

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

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4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! 

You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth).

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

Are you referring to Amaram? Shallan? Backpack from Dora the Explorer? I'm curious where you're going with this, but I'm clearly not making the leap you just made.

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1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Are you referring to Amaram? Shallan? Backpack from Dora the Explorer? I'm curious where you're going with this, but I'm clearly not making the leap you just made.

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something. 

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Just now, Ailvara said:

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something. 

No, actually I think you're right. One of the main things Kaladin has actually seen Shallan draw is the map of the Shattered Plains, when they were trapped down in the chasm. Until that point, he'd never really had a use for maps, but now he thinks they're valuable. I think that's probably a subliminal connection on Kaladin's part. Though I imagine Kaladin's reaction to those maps would probably be similar to Dalinar's.

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Thanks @Dreamstorm for getting the exact quote on Adolin being a sunrise. I read that when @maxal brought up the Adolin asks Shallan who she becomes quote. I knew some people would dismiss it as just Veil preferring rain so I wanted to make it clear that it has already been established that Shallan really really likes rain. Actually, Shallan's reaction to the highstorm is exactly like her reaction to seeing Kaladin. She dismisses Adolin; she forgets about Adolin when something more interesting is in front of her.

Sorry, I am bad at quoting. Remember that part when Veil starts saying Adolin is boring and she prefers Kaladin? What stuck out to me was that Shallan was uncomfortable. In my experience, people are uncomfortable when there is some truth to what they hear. Maybe Shallan doesn't 100% agree with Veil, but some part of Shallan thinks there is some truth to what Veil said and so she is uncomfortable. Shallan isn't indignant or angry or disbelieving. Shallan doesn't jump to Adolin's defense. I think she is uncomfortable because she agrees (a little bit) with Veil and she wishes she didn't.

@Alderant Great post. Your point about Shallan reacting to telling Kaladin the truth is one I haven't seen before. Not sure I agree, but a great possibility. Shallan is so inconsistent that I have no idea where her motivation comes from.

5 hours ago, Alderant said:

even paints a picture of a really ugly man over him with lightweaving to further contrast that Adolin is the desirable one.

Shallan's reason for doing this is spectacular. She tells Kaladin he is too memorable. She is gushing. Kaladin has this mask for such a brief time. It is almost like it was just an opportunity for Shallan to say Kaladin stands out. Other possibilities are that it was just a joke or to establish that Kaladin does not like to lie and won't wear a mask which sets up for when he somehow breaks Shallan's illusion covering his scars.

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

This is great. Kaladin really hasn't had opportunities to use maps. I think it does point to Kaladin thinking of Shallan. It could be the map she drew in the chasms that saved their lives and the special map she is able to lightweave in Urithiru.

ETA:

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

"all other women are jealous of the heroine, so she can only be friends with men".

 

That is an unfortunate one. Another one is the woman has extremely low self esteem and the only way for her to think better of herself is to be in a relationship with a man. I feel like that is where Shallan is. It is yucky.

I agree that romance is not Sanderson's strength. I was thinking about that video of Sanderson talking about romance. He says he intentionally wrote WOK with an immature romance (Shallan/Kabsal) contrasted with a mature one (Dalinar/Navani). I didn't find either relationship to be romantic. Shallan/Kabsal appeared very one sided. Kabsal was interested in Shallan, but Shallan could take him or leave him. A bit of flirting doesn't count as a romance for me.

I didn't like Dalinar/Navani because Navani comes on super strong and Dalinar flat out tells her to back off and she doesn't. She doesn't respect his choice and I think that is really wrong. If it had been a man coming on that strong and a woman blatantly told him to back off and he didn't, it would have been even worse. At least Dalinar wasn't physically threatened by Navani.

Edited by wotbibliophile
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Is there anyone who have actually read all these 89 pages of comments?!

By the way, though Kal is my favorite,

Spoiler

he easily handled Shallan marrying Adolin;

and also I don't really like to see Adolin suffering a romantic tragedy :'(

Edited by Arash.F
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3 hours ago, Arash.F said:

Is there anyone who have actually read all these 89 pages of comments?!

By the way, though Kal is my favorite,

  Reveal hidden contents

he easily handled Shallan marrying Adolin;

and also I don't really like to see Adolin suffering a romantic tragedy :'(

Yes some of us have been here from Day 1. Welcome.

Here's a summary of the thread

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

And here are @DeployParachute's post about Kaladin dealing with it

 

Edited by DimChatz
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12 minutes ago, Arash.F said:

Oh! thanks for the links! I really appreciate it

No problem!:)

 

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I reread the summary.

Page 5: In favor of the argument that the personas/masks would work against reintegration to keep their independence. There is the line by Veil that it would be easier to get rid of Shallan. I think this shows how little Veil values Shallan and shows how she wants to keep her distance from Shallan.

 

Page 6:

Quote

"You worry you're going to screw it up?", feeling a warmth inside that wasn't completely due to the wine.

I thought this was funny. Why include the line about the wine? If the line had just been “Shallan felt a warmth inside,” wouldn’t anyone assume she was warmed by Adolin’s words? Adding the part about the wine implies some of the warmth she feels is due to the wine. It lessens the sentimentality of the moment. It reminds me of when Shallan returns from the chasms. Adolin is really emotional and heartfelt and Shallan is a little disappointed she didn’t get to tell her joke. It seems like Shallan wants to use humor to keep a little emotional distance from Adolin. Even at the end of OB Shallan is cracking jokes while trying to convince Adolin she prefers him to Kaladin.

 

I think that Shallan has thoughts of love and Adolin never does should be added to the Shallan/Adolin section.

 

Page 7:

Quote

Something felt warm within him at being near her.  Something felt right.  It wasn't like with Laral, his boyhood crush.  Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance.  It was something different, and he couldn't define it.  He only knew he didn't want it to stop.  It pushed back the darkness. (OB, Ch. 99 Reachers)

Someone explain how this is in line with Kaladin at the end of OB saying he never loved her, she just reminded him of someone (i.e. Tien). In this quote he explicitly compares her to Laral and Tarah. How is this not romantic? The part about “something felt right” is what I read in romances about a “One True Love.”

 

Page 13: I hope someone will do a really close read of Set Up to Fail and list every possible thing that could possibly have been set up to fail. I think Shallan/Adolin will still be the most likely thing set up. If I remember right, there is a brief mention of Sebarial, Ialai, and Mraize. But how can the mere mention of their name be called a set up?

 


Page 15:
Quote

 

Brandon said in early 2016 that he needed to do Kal's and Shallan's backstories first, because “they were going to be important, interacting together for the next few books”

 

I would really like to see them interacting. They hardly do.

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Been following this forum for awhile, but haven't posted here before. I just finished OB today, and like many others, the ending of OB was unsatisfying for me in terms of the Shallan-Kaladin-Adolin triangle. I found this thread very cathartic and I pretty much agree with almost everything that has been said. I for one also think that Adolin isn't healthy for Shallan. Adolin isn't in love in Veil and Radiant, but only the image of "Shallan". The image of "Shallan" to me is the simple image of a light-eyed woman that Adolin wants her to be while she is completely more than that. I think the true Shallan is an equal mixture of all three personas" A scholarly light-eyed woman, a woman who isn't afraid to take lead or fight when necessary (Radiant), and a woman who isn't afraid to lie, kill, or have a drink when necessary (Veil).  Will he still be in love with her if he finds out that she killed both her parents? Or the other things that she associates so closely with Radiant and Veil like pragmaticism and subterfuge?

On Shallan's side, I see Adolin as just an anchor she is using to keep hold of the Shallan persona. In the last but one chapter, she keeps on saying that "Adolin knows me" and she keeps on associating that "me" with the Shallan persona while dismissing the Veil and Radiant persona. I think there is still more to come from this and the marriage wasn't a "conclusion", nor is Adolin a good "support system" for Shallan.

 

 

 

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