Starla Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 21 hours ago, wotbibliophile said: I was wondering what people think of Shallan's line "She has bad taste in men." Shallan is talking to Adolin about Veil liking Kaladin. I was offended by this line and was wondering why Shallan thinks this. I thought it might have to do with Helaran in which case I am not offended. It is hard to think of Kaladin as a good guy when he killed your brother. This makes sense to me. But Helaran is not explicitly tied to this line since Shallan has so completely repressed her reaction. Is there some other reason Kaladin = bad for Shallan? Is it in the text? If it is for any reason other than Helaran I am offended because Kaladin is a catch. I thought of one other reason that Shallan may have said that line. Maybe she said it to manipulate Adolin. She was like "Don't worry Adolin, I'm not interested in Kaladin. Everyone knows he would make a bad partner. I'm only interested in you." Argh! This comment by Shallan was the moment that bothered me most about this plot arc. My first thought was that it was a classist statement, similar to her awful "thank you for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants" comment in Part 1 when Adolin mentioned that Kaladin has a shardblade. I thought she would never stoop so low as a date a darkeyed man. Upon further reflection I took it as her simply not taking responsibility for her own thoughts and actions, and trying to make someone else look bad in order to make herself look better. Whatever reason she said it, it makes Kaladin look like the bad guy, when all he has done is respect Shallan and Adolin's relationship and space. No matter how he felt about her, he always put his personal feelings aside and did not consider acting on them out of his own sense of honor and loyalty. Shallan/Veil is the one who talked about flirting with him, drew pictures of him while she should be working, and who leered openly at him in front of Adolin and everyone. Shallan's comment about "bad taste in men" about someone who clearly likes her, who is a good guy, and has only shown her respect, is a low blow. To make matters worse, right after that comment, she and Adolin make out right in front of him. Shallan has just made a choice over who to spend the rest of her life with. They both know Kaladin likes her and has been respectful of their relationship. Instead of returning his respect by talking to him about it, or at the very least, being discrete about their decision, they decide to "show not tell" that Kaladin is out of the picture. Perhaps I could see Shallan doing this. She is not a very thoughtful person. But I'm surprised Adolin did this. I suppose he wasn't thinking clearly at the moment, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But what if she had chosen Kaladin and went and kissed him in front of Adolin? Not cool. As it stands, I don't like Shallan very much and this moment sealed it for me. I used to love her as a character, and maybe she'll win me back at some point, but as of the end of Oathbringer she's not looking like a very nice person. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Starla said: To make matters worse, right after that comment, she and Adolin make out right in front of him. Shallan has just made a choice over who to spend the rest of her life with. They both know Kaladin likes her and has been respectful of their relationship. Instead of returning his respect by talking to him about it, or at the very least, being discrete about their decision, they decide to "show not tell" that Kaladin is out of the picture. Perhaps I could see Shallan doing this. She is not a very thoughtful person. But I'm surprised Adolin did this. I suppose he wasn't thinking clearly at the moment, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But what if she had chosen Kaladin and went and kissed him in front of Adolin? Not cool. If I understood it correctly, Kaladin was standing quite some distance away from them... Did they even know, that he was seeing them? If they knew, yeah, cremhole move. Especially by Adolin, who is always tauted as being the nicest guy ever. 5 minutes ago, Starla said: As it stands, I don't like Shallan very much and this moment sealed it for me. I used to love her as a character, and maybe she'll win me back at some point, but as of the end of Oathbringer she's not looking like a very nice person Very understandable... I don't like that version of Shallan either. At the end of WoR and at the start of OB, she was much nicer, but I feel like, that she has been honing herself into some kind of person, that removed her own perceived flaws to masks, such as empathy as seen in Veil... Its awful, because I know, that this is not the real Shallan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starla Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, SLNC said: If I understood it correctly, Kaladin was standing quite some distance away from them... Did they even know, that he was seeing them? If they knew, yeah, cremhole move. Especially by Adolin, who is always tauted as being the nicest guy ever. They saw him land and Adolin waved at him. They were in his line of sight, even though he was looking the other way when Adolin waved. Right after this it switched to Kaladin's POV where he was watching them kiss and told Syl "her choice is made." You make a good point about Shallan's masks not being likable. Maybe I'll like her again if and when her true self ever returns. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Starla said: They saw him land and Adolin waved at him. They were in his line of sight, even though he was looking the other way when Adolin waved. Right after this it switched to Kaladin's POV where he was watching them kiss and told Syl "her choice is made." Thanks for clarifying. Definitely a cremhole move then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotbibliophile Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Starla said: Argh! This comment by Shallan was the moment that bothered me most about this plot arc. My first thought was that it was a classist statement, similar to her awful "thank you for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants" comment in Part 1 when Adolin mentioned that Kaladin has a shardblade. I thought she would never stoop so low as a date a darkeyed man. Upon further reflection I took it as her simply not taking responsibility for her own thoughts and actions, and trying to make someone else look bad in order to make herself look better. This is great. Shallan is classist and I believe Shallan would say stuff to make herself look good. 32 minutes ago, Starla said: As it stands, I don't like Shallan very much and this moment sealed it for me. I used to love her as a character, and maybe she'll win me back at some point, but as of the end of Oathbringer she's not looking like a very nice person. I've actually never seen Shallan as nice. It is why I think she is so fake with Adolin. She is nice to him. Maybe because she is a better person around him, maybe just because she wants to use him and is making sure she looks good. I think I mentioned earlier that I can't see it as a good thing (or natural to Shallan) that she doesn't joke with Adolin. She doesn't tease him (I think that is in the Kholinar section). ETA: Remember Shallan's long conversation about art? She said bad art is better or more useful than good art because it can be learned from. Adolin thinks she is talking about her bad jokes and Shallan says she is talking about Kaladin. Dang Shallan, that's cold. Also, not nice. Edited February 1, 2018 by wotbibliophile 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said: I've actually never seen Shallan as nice. It is why I think she is so fake with Adolin. She is nice to him. Maybe because she is a better person around him, maybe just because she wants to use him and is making sure she looks good. I think I mentioned earlier that I can't see it as a good thing (or natural to Shallan) that she doesn't joke with Adolin. She doesn't tease him (I think that is in the Kholinar section). She isn't too nice. Correct, but when she lets her walls down, and I mean completely, like in the chasms, she becomes a much different, more empathic person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotbibliophile Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 minute ago, SLNC said: She isn't too nice. Correct, but when she lets her walls down, and I mean completely, like in the chasms, she becomes a much different, more empathic person. I agree. At the end of WOR I thought Shallan could go to the dark side. I thought she just didn't care about other people (only herself). With OB I have changed my mind. I don't think Shallan will go to the dark side. It was the Kholinar section that convinced me. I saw that she really cared about the starving people of Kholinar and she tried to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 I have a hard time understanding Shallan because of her classist comments. Does she not realize how she sounds like? Or is she really a different person? I think it's just her naivety. Just like how she ended up harming people as Veil rather than helping them, she's too naive to realize her own classism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 3 hours ago, Starla said: To make matters worse, right after that comment, she and Adolin make out right in front of him. Shallan has just made a choice over who to spend the rest of her life with. They both know Kaladin likes her and has been respectful of their relationship. Instead of returning his respect by talking to him about it, or at the very least, being discrete about their decision, they decide to "show not tell" that Kaladin is out of the picture. Perhaps I could see Shallan doing this. She is not a very thoughtful person. But I'm surprised Adolin did this. I suppose he wasn't thinking clearly at the moment, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But what if she had chosen Kaladin and went and kissed him in front of Adolin? Not cool. Not to take away the grossness of the "Kaladin is terrible taste in men" comment (which I agree is classist, inaccurate and unfair), but are we sure Shallan knows Kaladin is into her? I know Adolin says "I see how you both look at each other" which implies Adolin thinks Kaladin likes Shallan (though I'm not 100% on that, since I do think Adolin's breaking up with Shallan is an attempt to get out of the relationship more than anything, plus in the leering scene on Honor's Path all that Adolin notices is Shallan's reaction to Kaladin, not anything which Kaladin reciprocates), but we don't hear or see anything from Shallan's PoV which makes it seem like Shallan knows Kaladin likes her romantically. As someone who used to be a 17 year old girl, I know how insecure one can be about whether or not a boy (especially one you like) is actually into you... Kaladin, as you say, isn't making any overt moves. He very mildly flirts with her, but we know he's into Shallan based on his PoV thoughts (which she doesn't know), not his actions. Kind of along those lines, but I've wondered if an element is Shallan's "rejection" of Kaladin is partially also due to insecurity; Adolin feeds her all these cheesy lines and is her betrothed, whereas the other option (since neither appears to not be an option to her ) is someone who is kind of aloof towards her. This aside, I agree Shallan (and maybe Adolin, though it's so hard to tell what he's thinking given the massive disparity between how Shallan sees him and what we see from Adolin's PoV) is definitely making a statement by publicly making out with Adolin in front of Kaladin. There's another time in Kholinar when Kaladin notices she kisses Adolin in a way more intimate than previously (this is when Adolin and Kaladin go to Shallan's room, so Shallan definitely know Kaladin is watching), which I always thought was an interesting observation given we know from Shallan's PoV that she's constantly struggling with her feelings for Kaladin throughout the Kholinar arc. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 And of course right when Shallan and Kaladin return from the chasms, she forces Adolin into a kiss. Seems like every time Shallan has a fulfilling conversation with Kaladin, she feels the need to compensate for it by being even more forward with Adolin! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 I have been very wary of jumping down this rabbit-hole of a thread, because I generally dislike how romances in SF/fantasy tend to affect female protagonists and distort/preempt other plots in order to feature more relationship drama or to showcase the awesomeness of the male love interest, who often ends up overshadowing the heroine as a result and/or blocking other characters from becoming involved in the action. This stuff consistently prevents urban fantasy series with interesting premises and worldbuilding from reaching their true potential and producing something truly brilliant. IMHO, YMMV. To add insult to injury it is mostly very formulaic and predictable - mutual dislike at first, a broody male love interest brimming with leashed passion, who is an unparalleled warrior, suffers from over-protectiveness complex, a heroine who struggles with her traumatic past/identity... you can see where all of this is going. Can these tired clichés be done well? Sure, but romances aren't Sanderson's strong suit, even though he has done alright with Mistborn Era 2 and to an extent with Warbreaker. And there are so many much more interesting to me mysteries, characters and plots in SA that I can't help but begrudge the space that it would take to do so properly. On 30.1.2018 at 7:13 PM, Dreamstorm said: I think the major disconnect is that the majority of this thread is about piecing together the evidence to try and discern where Brandon is headed with the romantic arc. The notions of what constitutes evidence are hardly unbiased here, though . Here is a parade example: On 27.1.2018 at 1:36 PM, Darvys said: Just in case someone feels like reading too much into the text today, there's this line when they're jumping from the honorspren ship : "She clung to Adolin, but Pattern’s hand was pulled from her grip." This quote has led to theories about how Shallan would need to divorce Adolin to save Pattern from dying earlier in the thread, yet _this_ comes shortly after: "Syl", kaladin repeated. "We jumped hand-in-hand, but she let go". And, funnily enough gets soundly ignored. No furious theorising about how Syl will abandon Kaladin or he will kill her yet again, no far-reaching predictions about his character. Crickets. Never mind that there was actually a very good reason for Shallan to prioritize Adolin, who, of them all, was in most immediate danger of suffocating if she lost him in the beads, as the only human unable to inhale stormlight in their group, while there is no such excuse for Kaladin/Syl. And there is another issue - Sanderson sometimes just glosses over/leaves out expected emotional responses and pay-offs. It is a feature or flaw of his writing, which is most noticeable in OB, but is also present in WoR and Warbreaker. I don't remember his other books well enough to comment. Anyway, is lack of grief over or thoughts about Jasnah's death in Dalinar's and Adolin's PoVs in WoR "evidence" that they never cared about her? Or that their relationship was very distant? OB demonstrates not. In fact, it is revealed that Dalinar had a closer connection to his niece than I previously expected, that she helped raise and educate Adolin. There are other examples of this, such as Dalinar and Navani being happy as punch mere weeks after Elhokar's death. So, lack of expected reactions/thoughts in a PoV can't be taken as proof of some deeper meaning. On 30.1.2018 at 7:13 PM, Dreamstorm said: A lot of the evidence other than the obvious "Shallan married Adolin" (accompanied by "Brandon will never break up a marriage") seems to point away from this being the ending of the arc. Or Sanderson can take the relatively less trodden path of marriage not being culmination of a romantic relationship, but the beginning of a long and challenging struggle towards true partnership/love. On 30.1.2018 at 7:13 PM, Dreamstorm said: One, Adolin being married to one of our three main characters keeps him as a central character, so this tepid romance is OK as a compromise for keeping Adolin in the forefront of the story. I think that concentrating on 3 main characters with everybody else having significantly smaller roles already makes the narrative somewhat claustrophobic and that having an involved romance between 2 of those will suck air out of everything else even more. It was OK to have such a narrow focus while were being introduced to a new, inventive and intriguing setting - everything that any PoV saw was fresh and interesting. But that is mostly gone now and to be able to keep up with the widening scope of the story we need to see the narrative from more angles and interact with more characters directly or indirectly. I also think that Shallan's brothers, rather than any love interest, would be crucial to her finally fully accepting the Truth about her mother and re-integrating. She will have to come clean to them and help them deal with it /possibly have to accept that some of them will be unable to forgive her, yet still learn to forgive herself. On 26.1.2018 at 5:54 PM, SLNC said: Adolin thinks, that she is becoming different persons. Which is just plain wrong. She is still Shallan - there is one WoB a few pages back that confirms that. She has been crafting masks to fix perceived shortcomings of herself, but she lost control over them. Radiant was to fix perceived shortcomings, and she is the more rudimentary mask. Veil is more complete and more geared towards escapism than anything else. And absolutely, creation of these personas didn't make her _less_ capable of doing things as Shallan, as you often claim in other posts. She didn't turn into some prim and proper maiden after their creation, which she never was in the first place, and certainly not in her interactions with Adolin. She didn't become less brave - and Adolin has seen her being brave as Shallan too - both with Re-Shepir and when they were thrown into Shadesmar and she led them from the Oathgate platform to safety. On 26.1.2018 at 5:54 PM, SLNC said: he isn't interested in anything Veil represents, which are intrinsic parts of Shallan though. Everything Veil did, Shallan also did. Everything Veil will do, Shallan will also do. Her mask doesn't matter, her thoughts on the masks don't matter. Veil isn't different from Shallan. It is all Shallan. Ah, no. Veil is a role, a mask that became more real than she should have been because of Shallan's magic. She is based on Shallan in some ways, but has been purposefully created to be different in others, to distinguish her from Shallan and to provide escape from her past. Some of Shallan's traits are exxaggerated almost to the point of caricature in Veil, while others are completely suppressed, even though they are integral to the full personality. Like Shallan's artistic talent - it is at the core of who Shallan is, how she sees the world and probably is what attracted Pattern to her in the first place and enlarged her soul enough to enable the bond before all the traumatic stuff happened. But it was also her main means of coping with her past, so it had to be excised from Veil, as it became too connected with the family tragedy in Shallan's mind. And fluctuating artistic ability provides a compelling argument that Veil is more real than you'd like to admit and that she is, indeed, different from Shallan. Oh, and Kaladin, of course, has no use for art. Hm... On 26.1.2018 at 5:54 PM, SLNC said: Including her feelings for Kaladin, which certainly aren't gone from Veil. But would she even have these feelings if she didn't suppress the knowledge of Kaladin killing Helaran? Yes, it was on a battlefield, with no foul play involved, yet this didn't stop Shallan from instantly hating Amaram when she thought that he was responsible. No matter what gloomy scottish ballads would claim, if somebody kills a brother you love, it would be a deal-breaker for most people. And, to be honest, I kind of wonder why, given her past, Shallan was even attracted to a broody, passionate dude, who occasionally uses anger as a crutch. Yes, yes, he is a great guy, but this similarity to her father should still have been a reflexive turn-off. Is this why her attraction surfaces when she is looking for escape from her past? Is this why it got shifted onto Veil persona, where it immediately grew much more overt? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starla Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 9 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Not to take away the grossness of the "Kaladin is terrible taste in men" comment (which I agree is classist, inaccurate and unfair), but are we sure Shallan knows Kaladin is into her? I know Adolin says "I see how you both look at each other" which implies Adolin thinks Kaladin likes Shallan (though I'm not 100% on that, since I do think Adolin's breaking up with Shallan is an attempt to get out of the relationship more than anything, plus in the leering scene on Honor's Path all that Adolin notices is Shallan's reaction to Kaladin, not anything which Kaladin reciprocates), but we don't hear or see anything from Shallan's PoV which makes it seem like Shallan knows Kaladin likes her romantically. As someone who used to be a 17 year old girl, I know how insecure one can be about whether or not a boy (especially one you like) is actually into you... Kaladin, as you say, isn't making any overt moves. He very mildly flirts with her, but we know he's into Shallan based on his PoV thoughts (which she doesn't know), not his actions. Kind of along those lines, but I've wondered if an element is Shallan's "rejection" of Kaladin is partially also due to insecurity; Adolin feeds her all these cheesy lines and is her betrothed, whereas the other option (since neither appears to not be an option to her ) is someone who is kind of aloof towards her. It’s not clear in the text whether Shallan knows the extent of Kaladin’s feeling for her. Probably not. But right before this scene, she is having a conversation with herself about which man to choose. Radiant says, “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months.” She obviously considers Kaladin a viable option, to the point she is considering breaking it off with Adolin to pursue Kaladin. So either she knows Kaladin has feelings for her, or she is so confident in herself that she thinks she can win him over despite his aloofness. This is another issue that feels disrespectful to Kaladin. I don’t ever see Shallan considering what he might think or feel. She objectifies him as something to be stared at ("I appreciate a nice picture when I see one.”), but never considers how any of her actions or decisions might affect him. At the very least, I would think their friendship would have developed far enough that she would wonder how he might feel about it all. But there is no sign in the text that she considers him at all, aside from what she will get out of it. On a meta level, I also feel the whole love triangle arc disrespects Kaladin as a character. There was no character growth or regression for him as a result of it. He could have been removed from this plotline altogether and his character would be unchanged. It seems that a majority of SA fans are relieved Shallan didn’t choose him, that he would not have been good for her. People often point out why he is bad for her (over-protective, depression, etc). I also see a lot of comments that Kaladin is not ready for a relationship. Perhaps that is true, but is Shallan ready for a relationship? Many people seem to think so, based on how glad folks are that she married Adolin in the end. It makes Kaladin look like the bad relationship choice, and Shallan is better off without him. Personally, I think he’s better off without her, so I’m relieved she didn’t choose him. Perhaps something will happen in a future book that will make the whole thing makes sense (a lot of folks here have made great arguments for this), but until I see that, I wish some other random guy had been used to highlight Shallan’s identity crisis rather than dragging Kaladin into it. But I suppose random guy wouldn't have created as much interest and drama in the readers. Certainly not an 89 page thread. 58 minutes ago, Isilel said: And, to be honest, I kind of wonder why, given her past, Shallan was even attracted to a broody, passionate dude, who occasionally uses anger as a crutch. Yes, yes, he is a great guy, but this similarity to her father should still have been a reflexive turn-off. Is this why her attraction surfaces when she is looking for escape from her past? Is this why it got shifted onto Veil persona, where it immediately grew much more overt? Welcome, and congrats on bravely treading the water here! I don't think Kaladin is like Lin Davar, or that Shallan would make that connection. The only time Kaladin's anger gets triggered is when someone he cares about or is sworn to protect is in danger, or is being harmed or oppressed in some way. Kaladin was wary of Shallan when he first met her because she conned him at their first meeting and stole his boots, and he later thought she was an opportunist out to use or harm Adolin. After he got to know her, he only bantered playfully and was not angry towards her. Lin was the opposite, he harmed people he loved, or in order to hurt those he loved. I've never seen Kaladin do anything like this, or that Shallan would have connected the two in her mind. Now... Shallan did connect Adolin with her father in WOR, when she thought he was being too overprotective. I've never seen Kaladin be overprotective with Shallan. He seems to think she can take care of herself. Adolin also comes around in Oathbringer and realizes the same thing, and teaches her sword fighting. As for why Shallan might be attracted to a broody passionate guy, there is a WOB floating around about how Shallan's true self is quite passionate but she covers it up with the sweet Vorin girl we see in the books. I don't have time to look for the quote right now (stupid work), but it was posted earlier in this thread. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Isilel said: I have been very wary of jumping down this rabbit-hole of a thread, because I generally dislike how romances in SF/fantasy tend to affect female protagonists and distort/preempt other plots in order to feature more relationship drama or to showcase the awesomeness of the male love interest, who often ends up overshadowing the heroine as a result and/or blocking other characters from becoming involved in the action. This stuff consistently prevents urban fantasy series with interesting premises and worldbuilding from reaching their true potential and producing something truly brilliant. IMHO, YMMV. To add insult to injury it is mostly very formulaic and predictable - mutual dislike at first, a broody male love interest brimming with leashed passion, who is an unparalleled warrior, suffers from over-protectiveness complex, a heroine who struggles with her traumatic past/identity... you can see where all of this is going. Can these tired clichés be done well? Sure, but romances aren't Sanderson's strong suit, even though he has done alright with Mistborn Era 2 and to an extent with Warbreaker. And there are so many much more interesting to me mysteries, characters and plots in SA that I can't help but begrudge the space that it would take to do so properly. Understandable, but Sanderson chose to make the romantic plot an integral part of Shallan's character development, so it must be discussed if we want to discuss Shallan in Oathbringer. There is no way around it. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Or Sanderson can take the relatively less trodden path of marriage not being culmination of a romantic relationship, but the beginning of a long and challenging struggle towards true partnership/love. Or the even less trodden path of a marriage failing, because it wasn't built on the most solid foundation in the first place. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Radiant was to fix perceived shortcomings, and she is the more rudimentary mask. Veil is more complete and more geared towards escapism than anything else. And absolutely, creation of these personas didn't make her _less_ capable of doing things as Shallan, as you often claim in other posts. She didn't turn into some prim and proper maiden after their creation, which she never was in the first place, and certainly not in her interactions with Adolin. She didn't become less brave - and Adolin has seen her being brave as Shallan too - both with Re-Shepir and when they were thrown into Shadesmar and she led them from the Oathgate platform to safety. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Ah, no. Veil is a role, a mask that became more real than she should have been because of Shallan's magic. She is based on Shallan in some ways, but has been purposefully created to be different in others, to distinguish her from Shallan and to provide escape from her past. Some of Shallan's traits are exxaggerated almost to the point of caricature in Veil, while others are completely suppressed, even though they are integral to the full personality. Like Shallan's artistic talent - it is at the core of who Shallan is, how she sees the world and probably is what attracted Pattern to her in the first place and enlarged her soul enough to enable the bond before all the traumatic stuff happened. But it was also her main means of coping with her past, so it had to be excised from Veil, as it became too connected with the family tragedy in Shallan's mind. And fluctuating artistic ability provides a compelling argument that Veil is more real than you'd like to admit and that she is, indeed, different from Shallan. Oh, and Kaladin, of course, has no use for art. Hm... Radiant was created in exactly the same way as Veil was created. Veil was created for Shallan to infiltrate the Ghostbloods, which she couldn't do as Shallan, to tackle situations, that Shallan couldn't bear. Radiant was created for Shallan to train with Adolin, which she couldn't do as Shallan, to tackle situations, that Shallan couldn't bear. Radiant then took over Shallan's complete Radiant duties, aside from Lightweaving a map or two. Veil took over Shallan's spying duties. Shallan certainly became less brave. The situation with Re-Shephir you describe happened right at the end of Part 1 of Oathbringer, which was right at the beginning of Shallan's downward spiral, before Jasnah came back and berated her for her behavior. By the time they reached Kholinar, she was barely able to function in those situations without Veil and Radiant. After Jasnah berated Shallan for having wandering eyes and for trying to end her wardship, Shallan began to box off those perceived flaws/shortcomings she'd been gathering, while alone and forced by circumstance, to her masks. They were created to deal with them. She laid the foundation for that before in Part 1 (see quote), because of her desire to flee her hurting self after Pattern's revelation at the end of WoR, true, but the turning point was Jasnah. She began to hone Shallan into this "prim and proper maiden" Quote “Shallan,” Pattern said. “This is . . . mmm . . . there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself. I don’t understand it.” “I just need to go deeper,” she whispered. “I can’t be Veil only on the surface.” Chapter 18, Double Vision And a WoB, that strengthens my claim. Quote Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes. But she has magical abilities that nobody in this world has, including the ability to put on masks that change the way everyone perceives her. She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face. She's losing control of what is real and what isn't--partially because she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be. But it's not like other personalities are creeping in from a fractured psyche. She's hiding behind masks, and creates each role for herself to act in an attempt to solve a perceived shortcoming in herself. She literally sketched out Veil and thought, "Yup, I'm going to become that person now." Because Veil would have never been tricked into caring about her father; she would have been too wise for that. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7ppxck/oathbringer_cosmere_thoughts_on_shallan/dsl3g48/?context=3 (/u/mistborn is Brandon's reddit account) Veil isn't some kind of new personality. Veil doesn't even exist. It is all just in Shallan's head, because she has mental blocks to do what she actually has to do. Then Jasnah came along and told her how she should be (don't for get your causal and be my ward), so she becomes that person as Shallan, but now is dependent on Veil and Radiant to do her other duties, because in her head, she doesn't allow herself to do them as Shallan anymore. She makes Veil and Radiant different personalities, but in the end they are all just figments of her mind. This conflict in between of not knowing who she wants to be and getting told who she should be is making her lose her grip on reality. Also, Cryptics, called liespren for a reason, don't get just attracted to artists, but to lies. Thing is, that every work of art is a lie. Even a portrait of someone who exists isn't a reflection of that person's existence but a lie, a resemblence, of that person. There is a correlation between Lightweavers and artists, true, but only because artists are often the best liars. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: But would she even have these feelings if she didn't suppress the knowledge of Kaladin killing Helaran? Yes, it was on a battlefield, with no foul play involved, yet this didn't stop Shallan from instantly hating Amaram when she thought that he was responsible. No matter what gloomy scottish ballads would claim, if somebody kills a brother you love, it would be a deal-breaker for most people. And, to be honest, I kind of wonder why, given her past, Shallan was even attracted to a broody, passionate dude, who occasionally uses anger as a crutch. Yes, yes, he is a great guy, but this similarity to her father should still have been a reflexive turn-off. Is this why her attraction surfaces when she is looking for escape from her past? Is this why it got shifted onto Veil persona, where it immediately grew much more overt? Good question. I have hoped, that they'd talk about it, but they didn't. Still, we don't know, if Helaran was the reason Shallan began to be so toxic towards Kaladin. She also never thought about it again. It is still one of the bigger mysteries. Ah, the good old superficial characterization of Kaladin. She got those feelings, she had, after she has realized, that underneath all that gloom lies a very caring, passionate and determined man. You have to take that into account, otherwise your chain of causation falls apart. Also Kaladin is a far cry from Lin Davar. Where Lin loses his temper nearly erratically, Kaladin is angry, but has "leashed that anger", he dominates it. Shallan herself says that. Kaladin is much more, than broody and gloomy, but sure take the moral high ground and lecture me about bias. 37 minutes ago, Starla said: As for why Shallan might be attracted to a broody passionate guy, there is a WOB floating around about how Shallan's true self is quite passionate but she covers it up with the sweet Vorin girl we see in the books. I don't have time to look for the quote right now (stupid work), but it was posted earlier in this thread. Don't worry, I got you. Quote Shallan berates the book merchant The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.” Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren… https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/ Edited February 1, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Isilel said: I have been very wary of jumping down this rabbit-hole of a thread, because I generally dislike how romances in SF/fantasy tend to affect female protagonists and distort/preempt other plots in order to feature more relationship drama or to showcase the awesomeness of the male love interest, who often ends up overshadowing the heroine as a result and/or blocking other characters from becoming involved in the action. Most of us dislike this romance, so you're in good company here (I know that wasn't the exact point you were getting at though, haha.) That being said, don't worry about jumping in late! We won't hold you down and make you stay 6 hours ago, Isilel said: The notions of what constitutes evidence are hardly unbiased here, though . You'll also see a lot of people asking for evidence in the opposite direction, so that is very welcome! It makes a much stronger argument to confront bias and try and see the other side. I personally started in this thread because I wanted people to convince me the ending was one which was satisfying; I was desperate for evidence that there was something magical about the Shallan-Adolin romance that I missed. My big turning point was when I realized Shallan was sitting when Adolin "sees" the "real" Shallan and then stands up when Kaladin lands (this dynamic - sitting with Adolin and then standing to look at Kaladin is also present in a scene in Honor's Path.) Given Brandon's obvious symbolism regarding Shallan needing to be the girl who stood up (OB, Chapter 82, The Girl Who Stood Up), I was left with either that symbolism having to mean something or that Brandon was very sloppy in ignoring it later in the book. I chose the former and here we are! To get more to your point - evidence is what is written in the book or in a WoB. You can argue about the meaning behind it, but you can't argue that it isn't on the page (/website in the case of WoB.) To get to one conclusion or the other (Adolin or Kaladin), either side has to explain around some evidence. For a pro-Kaladin argument, it's mostly explaining around that Shallan chose Adolin and married him (which is why you get a lot of discussions about whether or not Brandon would do a divorce or otherwise how could they break up), but there doesn't seem to be a lot of meta evidence which points towards Adolin to contend with. For a pro-Adolin argument, you should read the document linked in the very first post on this thread, as it contains a lot of quotes and WoB which are theorized to point towards Kaladin that need to be contended with to arrive at a pro-Adolin conclusion. Some of these form stronger arguments than others, but there is a lot to explain around in order to come to the conclusion that Shallan and Adolin are meant to last. 6 hours ago, Isilel said: On 1/27/2018 at 7:36 AM, Darvys said: Just in case someone feels like reading too much into the text today, there's this line when they're jumping from the honorspren ship : "She clung to Adolin, but Pattern’s hand was pulled from her grip." This quote has led to theories about how Shallan would need to divorce Adolin to save Pattern from dying earlier in the thread, yet _this_ comes shortly after: "Syl", kaladin repeated. "We jumped hand-in-hand, but she let go". And, funnily enough gets soundly ignored. No furious theorising about how Syl will abandon Kaladin or he will kill her yet again, no far-reaching predictions about his character. Crickets. Never mind that there was actually a very good reason for Shallan to prioritize Adolin, who, of them all, was in most immediate danger of suffocating if she lost him in the beads, as the only human unable to inhale stormlight in their group, while there is no such excuse for Kaladin/Syl. This has actually been brought up before (but not like I expect you to have read this whole thing!, just pointing it out.) I personally think the theory that the Shallan/Pattern bond is fraying is one which has some of the more speculative evidence - there's some there (including this quote and Pattern's lack of presence at the end of OB), but there is also evidence of them having a good bond (interactions in Shadesmar for instance.) Your point regarding Kaladin/Syl is a good one, though if you're re-reading that scene, I would look at the difference between Shallan's reaction to Pattern being missing and Kaladin's over Syl. Kaladin is frantic (immediately asking for Syl, pacing - we see this from Shallan's PoV) whereas Shallan is very nonchalant about Pattern not making it to the room, not mentioning him from when his hand slipped out of hers until he finds his way back to the room. Kaladin's reaction makes sense given what he's been through; he's lost Syl once before and is desperate to not do so again. Shallan's reaction...? Who knows. Maybe it's showing she's more rational about the fact spren don't need to breath (even if we don't hear her thought about this.) Maybe it's showing she isn't as attached to her spren as Kaladin. We can theorize about what it means, but the fact (i) Shallan clung to Adolin and lost hold of Pattern and (ii) Shallan has a vastly different reaction to losing hold of her spren than Kaladin, are things which did happened, so are open to interpretation as to their meaning. 6 hours ago, Isilel said: Anyway, is lack of grief over or thoughts about Jasnah's death in Dalinar's and Adolin's PoVs in WoR "evidence" that they never cared about her? Or that their relationship was very distant? OB demonstrates not. In fact, it is revealed that Dalinar had a closer connection to his niece than I previously expected, that she helped raise and educate Adolin. There are other examples of this, such as Dalinar and Navani being happy as punch mere weeks after Elhokar's death. So, lack of expected reactions/thoughts in a PoV can't be taken as proof of some deeper meaning. This is something which is complained about a lot with regards to the Jasnah and Elhokar deaths in particular, and I agree that neither was handled with a lot of emotion. (Not totally disregarded - there is definitely mention in the books, but not treated with a ton of emotional weight.) Do lack of expected reactions/thoughts in a PoV mean something though? Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. There have been arguments (not here but other places where I saw this complained about) that neither Jasnah nor Elhokar was a main character, so others' reactions to their deaths were only used when needed, i.e. Navani's journal and missing signs of the Parshendi changing tactics related to grief over Jasnah's death or Kaladin's comatose reaction to Moash killing Elhokar. To point out an obvious "lack of reaction means something" moment, there is Jasnah's non-reaction to Shallan stealing her soulcaster. I agree with you it's very hard to prove a negative - it's always better evidence when you have the benefit of an explicit passage rather than just the absence of anything on point. (Adolin's feelings for Shallan fall into this category for me. We have no evidence from his PoV that he has strong feelings for Shallan, but it's just absence of any strong feelings rather than Adolin explicitly thinking that he doesn't.) In my mind, it's still an open point until we have evidence one way or another, but that doesn't mean the absence of something can't be used as evidence; it's still proof that the author decided to not include something (intentionally or not.) It's just not as strong of evidence as something which directly addresses an issue, because as you point out, it may not mean anything. 6 hours ago, Isilel said: I think that concentrating on 3 main characters with everybody else having significantly smaller roles already makes the narrative somewhat claustrophobic and that having an involved romance between 2 of those will suck air out of everything else even more. It was OK to have such a narrow focus while were being introduced to a new, inventive and intriguing setting - everything that any PoV saw was fresh and interesting. But that is mostly gone now and to be able to keep up with the widening scope of the story we need to see the narrative from more angles and interact with more characters directly or indirectly. I'm actually not sure if you're a big Adolin fan? And are you saying this is why you're OK with Adolin being in a romance with someone not totally devoted to him/where he doesn't show feelings? (This was the point of the post of mine you quoted.) If so, I see this as being a subset of "Shadolin is good to keep Adolin in the story more" so that's good I was on the right track about why some Adolin fans are so willing to accept a romance which is not-so-satisfying from an Adolin perspective! 6 hours ago, Isilel said: Oh, and Kaladin, of course, has no use for art. Hm... Where does this come from? We see Kaladin in WoK flashbacks as being fascinated with drawings of human bodies (which is very akin to Shallan's interest in natural history actually.) Is there something I forget where Kaladin is anti-art? 5 hours ago, Starla said: On a meta level, I also feel the whole love triangle arc disrespects Kaladin as a character. There was no character growth or regression for him as a result of it. He could have been removed from this plotline altogether and his character would be unchanged. It seems that a majority of SA fans are relieved Shallan didn’t choose him, that he would not have been good for her. People often point out why he is bad for her (over-protective, depression, etc). I also see a lot of comments that Kaladin is not ready for a relationship. Perhaps that is true, but is Shallan ready for a relationship? Many people seem to think so, based on how glad folks are that she married Adolin in the end. I wholeheartedly agree with this. Kaladin (as a character) got nothing from the arc. He got something from the chasms as an example of judging a lighteyes before knowing more of their story, but there was no reason to keep it going from a character-development perspective. The hypocrisy of "Kaladin has depression and shouldn't be in a relationship" coupled with "it's great Shallan got married to Adolin" drives me batty! Also the idea (as @SLNC pointed out) that Kaladin is the overprotective one, when Adolin is the one shown on the page annoying Shallan with his over-protectiveness. (This does continue into OB though in milder form, such as the beginning of Chapter 110, A Million Stars. "Shallan put her freehand on the frame of the open cargo door and leaned out over the churning depths. Adolin tried to tug her back, but she remained in place.") 4 hours ago, SLNC said: The situation with Re-Shephir you describe happened right at the end of Part 1 of Oathbringer, which was right at the beginning of Shallan's downward spiral, before Jasnah came back and berated her for her behavior. By the time they reached Kholinar, she was barely able to function in those situations without Veil and Radiant. Notably, in the Re-Shephir confrontation, Shallan is channeling and using her difficult past to make her stronger. (This is one of my favorite Shallan passages ever, so I'm going to re-quote is below .) Shallan then realizes Re-Shephir is going to learn all of her (Shallan's) secrets ("know her completely, discover each and every one of her secrets"), since Shallan is so open at that moment, and Shallan loses her "ferocity and determination" until she decides to lie ("So she lied... She'd always been that way. She would continue that way forever.") I don't think it's any coincidence that after this Shallan huddles in her room for a day (note: I believe I read somewhere this was a week in either the alpha or beta version, but changed as readers found it unrealistic Shallan would remain holed up for so long after Jasnah's return) and then starts fracturing even more distinctly. I think this exposure of "herself" and subsequent decision to solve her doubt (or perceived shortcomings) by lying was quite detrimental to her mental health. Shallan doesn't regain the ability to face her painful memories until Thaylen City, and at that point she explicitly needs Veil and Radiant in order to do so, as her illusions start to fail when she Lightweaves her mother until Veil and Radiant emerge and grab her hands. (OB, Ch. 120, The Spear That Would Not Break, pg. 1149 US kindle edition) Quote Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck. She didn't attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever. OB, Ch. 30, Mother of Lies Edited February 1, 2018 by Dreamstorm Clarifications 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsterMetroid Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 So just looking at this thread again in a while and I noticed two things... 1. It appears I missed some stuff but not too much and 2. that Dreamstorm and SLNC are getting a crap ton of rep from this thread, like memes kind of reps! But I digress, this seems to be one of the only places I can discuss shallan topics (especially divorce) without being immediately called a Shalladin shipper (which I'm not) and to get over it she made her choice. I wish I could find a bigger audience to discuss things with but at this point starting a new topic to focus on things doesn't seem to work. They just die out from hate basically and maybe one or two insightful comments. My question to you guys is if a divorce Happened do you think it would be mutual? and How would it affect Adolin? Shallan? And would/is Shallan's bond weakening with pattern because of this/other things Shallan isn't acknowledging? I personally think that it would be a decision by Shallan not mutual and would kind of broad side him. Adolin would become super (almost Kaladin levels) depressed about it but I don't think he would "break". I think Shallan would feel bad but ultimately more free and know what she actually wanted to be / become. I'm not sure about my own pattern question (I'm not sure about any of them otherwise I wouldn't want to discuss them with people ). But it seems to me that her bond should be weakening since she doesn't confront the truth about Heleran (like I said earlier), her feelings for kaladin, and that she is a ghostblood. Btu I haven't seen much evidence of pattern regressing unless he maybe hummed more to himself near the end of the book but I didn't count his hums throughout so that may be me mis-remembering. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humming Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said: Dreamstorm and SLNC are getting a crap ton of rep from this thread, like memes kind of reps! This is how I feel giving rep in this thread: 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BraidedRose Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 Quote 4 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said: But I digress, this seems to be one of the only places I can discuss shallan topics (especially divorce) without being immediately called a Shalladin shipper (which I'm not) and to get over it she made her choice. I wish I could find a bigger audience to discuss things with but at this point starting a new topic to focus on things doesn't seem to work. They just die out from hate basically and maybe one or two insightful comments. My question to you guys is if a divorce Happened do you think it would be mutual? and How would it affect Adolin? Shallan? And would/is Shallan's bond weakening with pattern because of this/other things Shallan isn't acknowledging? First of all, on people telling you to “get over it she made her choice,” ugh, those comments rile me up! People are allowed to have different opinions, so it frustrates me when someone feels the need to shut down conversation that way. Anyway, to try to answer your questions. I definitely think the impetus for a divorce, if there is going to be one, would likely stem from Shallan. I think the only way to really justify it would be for it to stem from Shallan confronting how much she was lying to herself and hiding significant parts of herself behind masks in OB. If she accepts herself as Wit was trying to encourage her to do and in the process realizes that her marriage was part of those lies, that would seem a legitimate reason for a divorce. As for Adolin, no I don’t think he would want it, although he did try to break it off with her right before they got married and we didn’t really see much from his point of view to fully explain why, so it is left open to interpretation how he really feels at this point. I’m not sure if it would be enough to “break” Adolin, simply because we haven’t really been shown that he is deeply in love with Shallan. But he is very invested in the relationship and it would likely be a huge blow, so perhaps it would, especially in combination with other blows that might be coming for him. For Shallan, I hope it would be part of a healing path if it does occur. The evidence for a frayed bond with Pattern is slim so far, but I still think it’s very likely to play out in the next book. Mainly because Shallan is lying to herself and believing her own lies which seems dangerous. A counter argument is that we don’t really know enough about how Lightweaver oaths work to be sure, but it seems a reasonable assumption that ignoring her Truths might have a similar effect to breaking an Oath. I suspect the evidence is thin for now because Brandon really didn’t want to start that plot line in OB, but set it up so it could escalate any time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotbibliophile Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Isilel said: I have been very wary of jumping down this rabbit-hole of a thread, because I generally dislike how romances in SF/fantasy tend to affect female protagonists and distort/preempt other plots in order to feature more relationship drama or to showcase the awesomeness of the male love interest, who often ends up overshadowing the heroine as a result and/or blocking other characters from becoming involved in the action. This stuff consistently prevents urban fantasy series with interesting premises and worldbuilding from reaching their true potential and producing something truly brilliant. IMHO, YMMV. To add insult to injury it is mostly very formulaic and predictable - mutual dislike at first, a broody male love interest brimming with leashed passion, who is an unparalleled warrior, suffers from over-protectiveness complex, a heroine who struggles with her traumatic past/identity... you can see where all of this is going. Can these tired clichés be done well? Sure, but romances aren't Sanderson's strong suit, even though he has done alright with Mistborn Era 2 and to an extent with Warbreaker. And there are so many much more interesting to me mysteries, characters and plots in SA that I can't help but begrudge the space that it would take to do so properly. I do like romance, but I have read a lot of romance that I have really disliked for a lot of the reasons you list. I'll add another. I hate it when a man treats a woman horribly, intentionally hurts her, and the woman is super attracted to him. I'm like "have some self-respect woman. Walk away. You don't need that in your life." One romance I like is Mercy/Adam by Patricia Briggs despite the fact that it has a lot of the predictable elements you list. (The only one that gets on my nerves is Adam's over-protectiveness and he mostly gets over it). One thing I like about it is that both Mercy and Adam like to fight. When they are fighting, they are having fun (they are pretty much flirting). (This is not at all like my personality. I hate conflict). Starla, SLNC, and Dreamstorm responded to the rest of your post. I have just a few small points. 13 hours ago, Isilel said: Oh, and Kaladin, of course, has no use for art. Hm... I too am wondering what you meant by this. We have the chasm section where Shallan's art saved the day. I don't think Kaladin will ever disrespect Shallan's art. Also, there is that moment where Adolin sees Shallan change on Honor's Path. She sees Kaladin and stands up straight and we think she is transitioning to Veil, but then she says she has to draw that. Drawing is not a Veil trait. 13 hours ago, Isilel said: And fluctuating artistic ability provides a compelling argument that Veil is more real than you'd like to admit and that she is, indeed, different from Shallan. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Veil isn't real. Everything Veil does is literally Shallan doing it. And there is the (often brought up) quote by Pattern: Pattern calls Veil, Shallan. She says call me Veil and he says your lies wrap other lies. I think the fact that Veil can't draw is proof that Shallan believes her own lies. Veil never had any training in art therefore Veil can't draw. So Shallan intentionally draws like a child in order to reinforce her own lie. One last thing. There is that quote about Adolin being like a warm sunrise (or is it sunset?) and then Shallan transitions to Veil and admits that sometimes she preferred the rain. Well, I just want to point out that we know Shallan does like the rain. That is in her point of view. And we have seen her become enthralled with the highstorm when she and Adolin are on their date and she sees the highstorm close up. So it's not just Veil who likes rain. ETA: Ok I did have more to say. 10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: 12 hours ago, Starla said: On a meta level, I also feel the whole love triangle arc disrespects Kaladin as a character. There was no character growth or regression for him as a result of it. He could have been removed from this plotline altogether and his character would be unchanged. It seems that a majority of SA fans are relieved Shallan didn’t choose him, that he would not have been good for her. People often point out why he is bad for her (over-protective, depression, etc). I also see a lot of comments that Kaladin is not ready for a relationship. Perhaps that is true, but is Shallan ready for a relationship? Many people seem to think so, based on how glad folks are that she married Adolin in the end. The hypocrisy of "Kaladin has depression and shouldn't be in a relationship" coupled with "it's great Shallan got married to Adolin" drives me batty! I strongly agree with Dreamstorm here and I strongly believe Shallan is not ready to be married. I also think Kaladin has never acted over-protective of Shallan. I think he has always expected her to handle herself. Maybe it's because at first she wasn't one of his people so he didn't care what happened to her. Later I think it is definitely because he knows she is a surgebinder. Edited again: 5 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said: My question to you guys is if a divorce Happened do you think it would be mutual? and How would it affect Adolin? Shallan? And would/is Shallan's bond weakening with pattern because of this/other things Shallan isn't acknowledging? I have been thinking if a divorce happened it would come from Adolin. I think Shallan is too dependent on Adolin to divorce him and we have seen him try to break up with her already. I really do not know what to expect. I want to see Shallan more honest, but I don't know what the impetus will be for her to do that. She is going to need a shove. I don't see her gradually overcoming her problem. I foresee disaster. Edited February 2, 2018 by wotbibliophile 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, wotbibliophile said: One last thing. There is that quote about Adolin being like a warm sunrise (or is it sunset?) and then Shallan transitions to Veil and admits that sometimes she preferred the rain. Well, I just want to point out that we know Shallan does like the rain. That is in her point of view. And we have seen her become enthralled with the highstorm when she and Adolin are on their date and she sees the highstorm close up. So it's not just Veil who likes rain. Love this! Sometimes I think we've literally pulled apart every piece of these books, and then something comes along like this and blows me away. I've always seen this as an Adolin/Kaladin comparison, but I've never thought about it as a "Veil is Shallan while Veil is making that comparison" statement. Shallan is so strongly associated with loving storms and rain in WoR. In addition to the scenes you mention where Shallan is enthralled by the highstorms (with the winehouse date with Adolin and again in the chasms), we also have a scene during the weeping (WoR, Ch. 78, Contradictions) where she comments on liking the rain and how it makes her feel more imaginative (producing creationspren while she draws, not a Veil aspect.) Plus this WoB below on Shallan liking the rain. (I've always thought this one was, uh, interesting in the comparison between Brandon and his wife as well.) Quote darkanimereal1 (paraphrased) The Weepings--Shallan and Kaladin react very differently to them. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They do. darkanimereal1 (paraphrased) It just seems to me that the Weepings feel very close to Cultivation. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The primary thing you’re noticing -- and I'm not going to say there's not any magical influence -- but the primary thing you're noticing is that Kaladin has seasonal affective disorder and Shallan likes the rain. That's the primary thing you're noticing. I like the rain--my wife hates it. My wife gets depressed when it rains and I love when it rains. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/160-words-of-radiance-dayton-signing/#e2891 Throwing the OB quote we're discussing down here for posterity as well Quote Adolin Kholin in her life was like a warm sunrise. Veil started to seep out, and she was forced to acknowledge that sometimes she preferred the storm and the rain to the sun. OB, Ch. 77, Stormshelter 6 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said: My question to you guys is if a divorce Happened do you think it would be mutual? and How would it affect Adolin? Shallan? I wanted to address this, because I think I have a minority view. I think Adolin will be primarily the one to end the marriage. I see this as a natural progression of his "relationship issues", which have been said in WoB to be a major part of his character arc, but which have caused zero real repercussions for his character as of yet, as well as the endpoint of the lack of strong emotion towards Shallan in his viewpoints. I think this will send Shallan into a tailspin because she'll lose her anchor which will then allow/force her to actually reintegrate the aspects she's pushed onto Veil and Radiant. I think Adolin will feel tremendously guilty, and coupled with his latent guilt over Sadeas and not wanting to assume his familial duties (avoidance of being king), Adolin will also go into a tailspin (finally!) And then Adolin'll go to Rira/Iri and help liberate those nations from the Fused and fall in love with a person (boy.... ) who he will actually obsess over like a proper love story. Oh, and after all this anguish, then he can revive Maya. Meanwhile, Shallan will be sulking around Urithiru and finally getting good at her soulcasting, while Kaladin still avoids her (he's loyal to his best bro and they were married after all!), until Hesina or Laral (I'm torn...) gives him a good lecture about how he needs to stop it. And then Kaladin and Shallan fly to a mountain around Urithiru so she can draw and have an actual conversation about their feelings, while Shallan reminisces (in her PoV) about the first time Kaladin flew her up there (her first time flying!) and.... ummm, this may have diverged into fanfiction (But in all seriousness, the first paragraph is actually how I am currently hypothesizing it will go down.) Edited February 2, 2018 by Dreamstorm Added new part 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analyticaposteriori Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) On 30. 1. 2018 at 3:28 AM, Vissy said: I think it is a rushed plot to have them marry right now, but not necessarily unrealistic, and it felt like a good moment to make a decision like that in terms of just how the decision was executed, on part of writing. When Adolin x Shallan continues down the line it will need more work and attention though, to avoid a complete flattening of an interesting plot in my opinion. If it will be treated like a normal marriage in Book 4 I would be disappointed - I'd expect there to be a lot of difficulties at first, especially from Adolin's POV, adapting to a life like that. I'd be disappointed if Adolin just took it all in stride or with minimal effort and never struggled again. I guess for me it's that I want to care about Adolin and Shallan as a pairing, but I only have a lukewarm opinion of it because they never struggled for that relationship, and the hardships they did face were superficial and hardly any of their relationship was explored beyond the "you complete me" and "he gets me / she's so different and wonderful" tropes. At least with Shalladin I felt as if they had clicked on a deeper level, but maybe that's just because the chasm sequence was miles better than any single Shadolin scene I've ever read. Speaking of why it was rushed Quote Fortunately, Veil was running this operation. Shallan … Shallan got lost in things. She’d get focused on details, or stick her head in the clouds and dream about the big picture. That comfortable middle, that safe place of moderation, was unfamiliar ground to her. edit: Love that @wotbibliophile @Dreamstorm - just another example of something that clearly belonged to Shallan once and was pushed onto Veil. Edited February 2, 2018 by analyticaposteriori 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 9 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said: Speaking of why it was rushed Quote Fortunately, Veil was running this operation. Shallan … Shallan got lost in things. She’d get focused on details, or stick her head in the clouds and dream about the big picture. That comfortable middle, that safe place of moderation, was unfamiliar ground to her. This is great. Yeah, Shallan only does extremes. At least Shallan how she is at the moment. Desperate and needy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, SLNC said: Understandable, but Sanderson chose to make the romantic plot an integral part of Shallan's character development, so it must be discussed if we want to discuss Shallan in Oathbringer. There is no way around it. Is it an integral part of her character development or more of a symptom of underlying problems? Shallan's conflict is rooted in the past and it won't be solved by her chosing one man over another, anymore than Dalinar's conflict was solved by marrying Navani. Like him, she'll have to confront and assimilate her past and her love interest(s) could only have a tangential role in this, providing support in the best case, being a distraction in the worst. Her brothers, alive and dead are going to furnish impetus for the crisis, because they, and not any romantic entanglements were at the root of Shallan's trauma, they are the victims of her self-defense, they were the ones thoughts of whom she suppressed in order to function even before her fragmentation started in earnest. Quote Radiant was created in exactly the same way as Veil was created. Veil was created for Shallan to infiltrate the Ghostbloods, which she couldn't do as Shallan, to tackle situations, that Shallan couldn't bear. No, Veil was initially created just as a disguise and was gradually fleshed out more and more into a full-blown sub-persona or a role that got out of hand, if you will. Shallan only starts to use her to tackle things/ as an escape in OB. Radiant was expressly created as a means to deal with Pattern-as-a-Blade and perhaps Shallan feeling a pressure to provide a shining example, but feeling unworthy due to her past, and remained pretty rudimentary. Quote Shallan certainly became less brave. This is not true. I have just re-read part IV and every time when situation is critical, Shallan is Shallan in her PoV and she is very brave and cool-headed indeed. Persona-shifting only happens during the downtimes in that segment. Quote the turning point was Jasnah. She began to hone Shallan into this "prim and proper maiden" This would be quite a trick, as Jasnah is neither of these things herself, nor does she have much use for them in others. She was trying to recall Shallan, the curious, enthusiastic scholar, and figure out what was wrong with her ward, nothing more. Quote She makes Veil and Radiant different personalities, but in the end they are all just figments of her mind. This conflict in between of not knowing who she wants to be and getting told who she should be is making her lose her grip on reality. 'Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?' Ahem. IMHO, the conflict is more about Shallan's attempt to escape and erase her past and edit herself into a different person to accomplish it - not her _growing_ into a different person naturally, mind, which is normal and healthy. Jasnah just brought into light what was happening already - Shallan wanted to escape into Veil more and more. That's why she was skipping meetings and not paying attention when present. Nor did Shallan put her shortcomings into her personas - with the notable exception of her attraction to Kaladin. But that is also connected with her suppressing the truth of Helaran, so it makes a certain amount of sense. Quote Ah, the good old superficial characterization of Kaladin. I am not characterizing Kaladin in any way and I freely admit that the similarities are superficial. Still, wouldn't somebody who has been burned as badly as Shallan, keep wondering whether his anger might escape the leash one of these days? Her father started as caring too - towards her, at least. I didn't say that it would have been a rational assessement of the situation, but I, personally, think that it should have been a reflexive turn-off. Something that very well could have been overcome upon prolongued association, but not that quickly and easily. 20 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: I personally started in this thread because I wanted people to convince me the ending was one which was satisfying; I was desperate for evidence that there was something magical about the Shallan-Adolin romance that I missed. Well, it's all about expectations, right? Few romances in fiction strike me as "magical", particularly if they end in an (often contrived) "Happily Ever After". It doesn't help that most of them tend to be quite predictable and formulaic. For some reason I feel that the authors tend to do better, to write something genuinely touching and believable with tragical romances... And with all respect, I'd certainly not expect a "magical" romantic relationship from Sanderson - it is not his strength. So, I was hoping for it to not be too annyoing and too tropy and it was that. Quote there doesn't seem to be a lot of meta evidence which points towards Adolin to contend with. See, for me "symbolic evidence" weighs much less than boring and straightforward stuff like: Pattern liking Adolin, having repeated interactions with him, which seem to be leading to the 2 developing an actual comradely relationship. Adolin genuinely admiring and appreciating Shallan's art and having an artistic streak himself, while: "Kaladin had never had much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless". Chapter 102, "Celebrant". Pattern's admonitions about Shallan remembering her Truths only happening in her Veil persona, never Shallan. In fact the very reason that Shallan needs her personas is that she can't forget her past, but also can't assimilate it and it debilitates her. Quote Maybe it's showing she's more rational about the fact spren don't need to breath (even if we don't hear her thought about this.) Yes, she is the scholarly one, after all. And she is almost always very rational and clear-thinking when in critical/dangerous situations Quote To point out an obvious "lack of reaction means something" moment, there is Jasnah's non-reaction to Shallan stealing her soulcaster. But it wasn't just an ommission, like in those other examples, it was clearly signposted by Shallan's frantic expectation of the reaction and her constant wondering why it didn't come, which is absolutely not how it plays here or in those other cases I pointed out and some more that I didn't. Quote I'm actually not sure if you're a big Adolin fan? My favorite characters are Jasnah and Dalinar, but I like Adolin, yes. I very much enjoy the fact that a character that would have normally have been killed off early to clear the way for an "unlikely hero" like Kaladin or Renarin, was fleshed out into an ongoing and somewhat important character instead. This, of course also applies to my favs - all of them would have been roadkill within the first half of a stereotypical epic fantasy novel at the latest. I was disappointed that he wasn't given space to react to the drastic changes in his world - a normal(ish) person's emotional response to the apocalypse, to the sudden fall of their supposedly powerful homeland, to "deaths" and "ressurections" of people close to him, to change of his place in the world, etc. was sorely missed. For me it was a much greater disappointment than a possibly lacking romance. Yes, the marriage was hasty - but it is wartime and the end of the world rolled into one. Waiting until things are properly figured out isn't feasible in these circumstances. After both of them nearly dying a few times in a row, Shallan is only following Wit's advice about "drinking life" while she can or something along these lines. And generally, as I have said in my previous post, I would find an even greater concentration on the 2 of the 3 main characters that would necessarily result from a properly developed Shalladin romance, to be extremely problematic to the narrative. The scope needs to open up if we are to take the whole "a good chunk of the world and it's different peoples fighting for their survival" thing seriously, not to narrow down even further. 11 hours ago, wotbibliophile said: I do like romance, but I have read a lot of romance that I have really disliked for a lot of the reasons you list. I'll add another. I hate it when a man treats a woman horribly, intentionally hurts her, and the woman is super attracted to him. I'm like "have some self-respect woman. Walk away. You don't need that in your life." Right? I really don't understand why jerks who frighten or even hurt the heroine early on are supposed to be super-attractive. One of the reasons why I don't like most romances in fiction, as this is such a common trope. Quote One romance I like is Mercy/Adam by Patricia Briggs despite the fact that it has a lot of the predictable elements you list. I read most of them and even liked them despite another common toxic trope that I hate - "all other women are jealous of the heroine, so she can only be friends with men". What is it with the desire to make the heroine a queen-bee? Is this a paranoid fear of competition or the ingrained view of women as "lesser", so that associating exclusively with men makes the heroine inherently superior to the rest of her flawed gender? To be fair, it gets somewhat better and the trope isn't quite as overt and common now as a few years ago, but... Anyway, I liked the books well enough, but they have gotten repetitive and kind of leading nowhere interesting, so I stopped a couple of installments ago. Quote I also think Kaladin has never acted over-protective of Shallan. I think he has always expected her to handle herself. Maybe it's because at first she wasn't one of his people so he didn't care what happened to her. Later I think it is definitely because he knows she is a surgebinder. Kaladin's whole arc in OB is struggle with over-protectiveness towards people whom he considers to be "family". If he and Shallan started a relationship, this would have certainly become an issue, particularly after it becomes clear that Radiants are not, in fact, immortal. Edited February 2, 2018 by Isilel 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Kaladin's whole arc in OB is struggle with over-protectiveness towards people whom he considers to be "family". If he and Shallan have started a relationship, this would have certainly become an issue, particularly after it becomes clear that Radiants are not, in fact, immortal. Wrong. Kaladin's arc is his struggle of not being able to let go of his failures. His stone, that reminds him of Tien represents that. His burden. His inability to realize, that he can't protect everyone. Why he couldn't speak the Fourth Ideal. Quote No . . . Kaladin thought. “Give me your knife,” Adolin said, trying to sit up. It can’t be the end. “Adolin, no. Rest. Maybe we can surrender.” I can’t fail him! Kaladin looked over his shoulder toward Syl, who held him lightly by the arm. She nodded. “The Words, Kaladin.” [...] Kaladin fell to his knees on the cold obsidian of Shadesmar. Fused descended around them, six figures in brilliant, flapping clothing. He had a single slim hope. Each Ideal he’d spoken had resulted in an outpouring of power and strength. He licked his lips and tried whispering it. “I . . . I will . . .” He thought of friends lost. Malop. Jaks. Beld and Pedin. Say it, storm you! “I . . .” Rod and Mart. Bridgemen he’d failed. And before them, slaves he’d tried to save. Goshel. Nalma, caught in a trap like a beast. A windspren appeared near him, like a line of light. Then another. A single hope. The Words. Say the Words! [...] Kaladin stuttered, the Words stumbling. He thought of his men from Amaram’s army. Dallet and his squad, slain either by Shallan’s brother or by Amaram. Such good friends who had fallen. And then, of course, he thought of Tien. [...] Kaladin thought, finally, of Dalinar. Could Kaladin do it? Could he really say these Words? Could he mean them? The Fused swept close. Adolin bled. “I . . .” You know what you need to do. “I . . . can’t,” Kaladin finally whispered, tears streaming down his cheeks. “I can’t lose him, but . . . oh, Almighty . . . I can’t save him.” Kaladin bowed his head, sagging forward, trembling. He couldn’t say those Words. He wasn’t strong enough. Syl’s arms enfolded him from behind, and he felt softness as her cheek pressed against the back of his neck. She pulled him tight as he wept, sobbing, at his failure. Chapter 117 & 118 That is a lot of speculation and none of his actions in Oathbringer reflect that. Shallan told him to stay back so she can infiltrate the palace and he did so, because he knows, that she can take care of herself. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Is it an integral part of her character development or more of a symptom of underlying problems? Shallan's conflict is rooted in the past and it won't be solved by her chosing one man over another, anymore than Dalinar's conflict was solved by marrying Navani. Like him, she'll have to confront and assimilate her past and her love interest(s) could only have a tangential role in this, providing support in the best case, being a distraction in the worst. Her brothers, alive and dead are going to furnish impetus for the crisis, because they, and not any romantic entanglements were at the root of Shallan's trauma, they are the victims of her self-defense, they were the ones thoughts of whom she suppressed in order to function even before her fragmentation started in earnest. Of course it is an integral part of her character development - you know, an ongoing process. Her choice of partner isn't the solution, but Sanderson deliberately chose the "triangle" to reflect the development of her masks and how they develop different aspirations. And how Shallan herself was split. Quote The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals. https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7g4bvv/oathbringer_we_are_the_oathbringer_beta_reader/dqhrm3a/ 1 hour ago, Isilel said: This would be quite a trick, as Jasnah is neither of these things herself, nor does she have much use for them in others. She was trying to recall Shallan, the curious, Jasnah just brought into light what was happening already - Shallan wanted to escape into Veil more and more. Jasnah was telling her, who she should be and Shallan embraced that. Shallan wanted to have more freedom, you know, what she enjoyed during WoR, but Jasnah said, no, you're too indebted to us and your wardship isn't finished. End of discussion. If Shallan admires one person it is Jasnah, of course, it would have a big impact on her. It has nothing to do with Shallan escaping to Veil... She just wanted to make her own choices. So Shallan represents what she should be, but Veil and Radiant represent what she wants to be. A mixture of them all would be, what would be best for her. Like Wit already said, she should return to the woman, who she was. Without masks, because the shortcomings which make her masks more attractive are not even real. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Nor did Shallan put her shortcomings into her personas - with the notable exception of her attraction to Kaladin. She perceives shortcomings in her person and creates masks to deal with them. The author himself confirmed that. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: But that is also connected with her suppressing the truth of Helaran, so it makes a certain amount of sense. That is a load of speculation, as I already said, and we still don't know if that even played into her increased toxicity towards Kaladin. I've said this before, but you masterfully ignored that. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: No, Veil was initially created just as a disguise and was gradually fleshed out more and more into a full-blown sub-persona or a role that got out of hand, if you will. Shallan only starts to use her to tackle things/ as an escape in OB. Radiant was expressly created as a means to deal with Pattern-as-a-Blade and perhaps Shallan feeling a pressure to provide a shining example, but feeling unworthy due to her past, and remained pretty rudimentary. And does it make any difference? Veil and Radiant are both masks, she uses to fix perceived shortcomings of herself. Veil was a disguise first, yes, but in the end she fulfills a similar role like Radiant. Edited February 2, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 11 minutes ago, SLNC said: Regarding the art thing, it fits the pattern, that she deliberately talks bad about Kaladin. His actions don't resemble that. Come on, now! This quote: "Kaladin had never had much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless". Chapter 102, "Celebrant". is from Kaladin's own PoV! It is when he is visiting the spren art merchant and when he also sees the picture from the court of Gods. I am pretty sure that the issue of over-protectiveness comes up during the training of his squires, but I am not going to hunt for quotes, as I am not really trying to convert anybody. Look, some posters here have repeatedly asked for opposing opinions and I have provided mine, along with some of the evidence that helped me form it. That is all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Come on, now! This quote: "Kaladin had never had much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless". Chapter 102, "Celebrant". is from Kaladin's own PoV! It is when he is visiting the spren art merchant and when he also sees the picture from the court of Gods. Yeah, alright my mistake. Would have been nice if you'd have given some more context though. Those one sentence quotes are basically useless. That said, not having enough time, doesn't mean disinterest. Quote The food stall they found had mostly more “cans” like those on the ship. Adolin started haggling, and Kaladin settled in for another wait, scanning those who passed on the pathway for danger. He found his eyes drawn, however, to a stall across from them. Selling art. Kaladin had never had much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful—like a map—or it was basically pointless. And yet, nestled among the paintings for display was a small one painted from thick strokes of oil. White and red, with lines of black. When he looked away, he found himself drawn back toward it, studying the way the highlights played off those dark lines. Like nine shadows . . . he thought. With a figure kneeling in the middle . . . [...] Kaladin stepped up to the painting. The ones beside it showed far more technical prowess—they were capable portraits, perfectly capturing their human subjects. This one was sloppy by comparison. It looked like the painter had simply taken a knife covered in paint and slopped it onto the canvas, making general shapes. Haunting, beautiful shapes. Mostly reds and whites, but with a figure at the center, throwing out nine shadows . . . The full quote. The fact, that the picture in Celebrant mesmerized him actually shows the opposite. With context it paints a much different picture. Kaladin might have never had enough time to appreciate art, but that doesn't mean, that he doesn't. 1 hour ago, Isilel said: Look, some posters here have repeatedly asked for opposing opinions and I have provided mine, along with some of the evidence that helped me form it. That is all. And that is fine, but don't expect me to not give any retorts, if I like to. Edited February 2, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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