[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Greywatch]

A deadeye spren named herself, started speaking, expressed emotion, expressed preference for Adolin, and was able to be summoned before the ten heartbeats. There's lots to say that Maya is truly being revived.

[DeployParachute]

This just...completely reduces the emotional and narrative impact of the Recreance.  These spren aren't really truly gone, lost because of the betrayal of their Radiants.  They can be brought back, you see!  They were never irredeemably beyond reach and there is new hope moving forward for reconciliation between humans and spren.  No harm, no foul.  Just need to get those blades in the hands of the right people, so they can have intimate conversations, go dancing, take long walks on the beach, and whatever the heck else is needed to forge enough of a contrived plot point, I mean connection, to revive the spren.

Oh, and don't worry yourself with thoughts of how its supposed to be super duper extremely hard to do this, because our boy Adolin is here to show us the way.  If anyone can do it, he can, yes indeedily doo.  Maybe, after he's done showing everyone how to revive their spren blades, he could mosey on over to Westeros.  I hear they are in need of a Prince that was Promised, perhaps his plot armor and "can do" attitude will help resolve that book series faster...

Yeah, so, I realize I'm being overly snarky and sarcastic.  I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, just at the Mayalara Revival (band name anyone?) concept in general.  I always thought this was like, an easter egg or bone that Brandon threw out to readers as a wink and a nod to what became a very popular fan theory following WoR.  Entirely easy to do, but without any hint of major significance.  But if this indeed is going to be made into a major plot point for the series, then I think I'm going to have an issue with it.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Isilel said:

The point is, if a Recreance spren testifies that it wasn't a terrible betrayal of spren by humans, but a mutual, if tragically mistaken decision, that would change everything in a way that a few successful modern bonds can't. Hope that the dead spren can be eventually revived will help too.

That doesn't change the fact, that the reaction to that is complete speculation.

And I think you're seriously underestimating what the revival entails. It is an incredibly conditional thing, that needs the right setting to work at all, if Adolin even is on the right track. It took him years to get there (I don't know when he got Maya). It is not some method you can adapt into a Radiant production line... But Henry Ford would have been proud I guess. For the idea alone.

I also agree with @DeployParachute: This would just completely diminish the significance of the Recreance, if all spren could just be revived again.

Edited January 23, 2018 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

29 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

A deadeye spren named herself, started speaking, expressed emotion, expressed preference for Adolin, and was able to be summoned before the ten heartbeats. There's lots to say that Maya is truly being revived.

I think the strongest argument for revival is Maya attacking the Fused in Shadesmar.  Like @SLNC says, right after the realms were briefly unified, everyone was much closer to the spiritual and cognitive realm (Jasnah comments on that), so I can see the naming, speaking, earlier summoning, etc. rationally being just a consequence of that (and having it be a fake out.)  BUT when you take into account the attack by Maya in Shadesmar, you can't explain that behavior away by the closer realmatic connection, so I see it as the best piece of evidence. 

In addition to the above, I think it's going to happen for a totally non-logical reason.  Not because there's any big plot reason (though I'm sure Brandon will fit it in nicely) or because it will have strong consequences for other revivals or information (though those could happen too) or because it fits into other character's plots (which admittedly it might take some of that "flow" away by diverting attention from Lift as Edgedancer), but because I think it's a lovely fan service arc which gives Adolin something which is uniquely "his".  I can't see Brandon teasing it (not only in the book but through WoBs as well) and then taking it away from the readers.  It's one of the things my non-fanatic reader friends always comment on ("I bet Adolin will revive his shardblade, that's so cool!")

2 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

 I always thought this was like, an easter egg or bone that Brandon threw out to readers as a wink and a nod to what became a very popular fan theory following WoR.  Entirely easy to do, but without any hint of major significance.  But if this indeed is going to be made into a major plot point for the series, then I think I'm going to have an issue with it.

I 100% agree with this though I come to a different conclusion with how it will end, ha!

Edited January 23, 2018 by Dreamstorm
Added Deploy quote

[Greywatch]

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That doesn't change the fact, that the reaction to that is complete speculation.

And I think you're seriously underestimating what the revival entails. It is an incredibly conditional thing, that needs the right setting to work at all, if Adolin even is on the right track. It took him years to get there (I don't know when he got Maya). It is not some method you can adapt into a Radiant production line... But Henry Ford would have been proud I guess. For the idea alone.

I also agree with @DeployParachute: This would just completely diminish the significance of the Recreance, if all spren could just be revived again.

Or, maybe the seriousness of the Recreance is used to underscore how important what's happening with Maya really is. After all, no other spren is showing signs of this, and gosh if we haven't yet seen the in-world reaction to Maya waking up. The impossibility of this situation is why it doesn't make any sense to me that this is just a wink from the author? Why would he make such an important plot point happen just for an easter egg? He wouldn't.

[DeployParachute]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

Or, maybe the seriousness of the Recreance is used to underscore how important what's happening with Maya really is. After all, no other spren is showing signs of this, and gosh if we haven't yet seen the in-world reaction to Maya waking up. The impossibility of this situation is why it doesn't make any sense to me that this is just a wink from the author? Why would he make such an important plot point happen just for an easter egg? He wouldn't.

Oh I agree that your interpretation is becoming more plausible, that's why I included my last paragraph about my original thought being replaced with realization that this might be a thing.  The better question is, why give this to a secondary character (as described by the author), if its going to be such a major plot point...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

After all, no other spren is showing signs of this,

Actually, Oathbringer didn't scream when Dalinar held it again, but rather just whimpered... The SF said, that it was because the spren remembers Dalinar's oaths he made. So, yeah, Maya and Adolin might have a stronger Connection, but it isn't unheard of, that other deadeyed spren, form similar Connections with their holders.

Edited January 23, 2018 by SLNC

[BraidedRose]

I fall in the camp that is expecting some kind of Maya revival plot line. Maybe Adolin won’t be successful, and it may or may not have major consequences for how the world sees the Recreance but I’d be shocked if it was just an Easter egg that doesn’t lead any further. I think there are quite a few strong indications for this that others have already pointed out, but I also wanted to go back to a point that I think led us in this direction to begin with.

@Alderant mentioned that Adolin dying is on the table and 

Quote

On 1/22/2018 at 4:03 PM, SLNC said:

He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains.

 

I don’t believe that a Maya revival arc rules this out. Giving Adolin something significant of his own that he has achieved or is in the process of achieving could make his death even more tragic and perhaps add to the ripple effect.

I don’t even necessarily think the revival arc rules out Adolin going dark as there is also speculation for, but I do think that is less likely and would only work if Adolin failed to revive Maya.

I’m leaning toward Adolin succeeding because it would be such a triumphant moment, and then we may or may not have his tragic end afterwards. I just hope we don’t have another Elhokar moment where Adolin dies the second before Maya is revived, that would be too much for me!

[Greywatch]

Just now, SLNC said:

Actually, Oathbringer didn't scream when Dalinar held it again, but rather just whimpered... The SF said, that it was because the spren remembers Dalinar's oaths he made. So, yeah, Maya and Adolin might have a stronger Connection, but it isn't unheard of, that other deadeyed spren, don't form similar Connections with their holders.

And yet even with the significance of this, so much so that the SF commented on it being unusual, still nothing approaching the level of consciousness that Maya has shown.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

And yet even with the significance of this, so much so that the SF commented on it being unusual, still nothing approaching the level of consciousness that Maya has shown.

I'm not trying to devalue your interpretation of it, please don't see it as such. I'm just trying to propose a different theory to emphasize, that both theories are plausible, but none are set in stone, because we have no hard evidence, since we don't know the true signs of a revival going on. We're just speculating, which is fine, but we should treat it as such.

6 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

I don’t believe that a Maya revival arc rules this out. Giving Adolin something significant of his own that he has achieved or is in the process of achieving could make his death even more tragic and perhaps add to the ripple effect.

Yes, this was basically the trigger of this discussion and I think, that a Maya revival plot wouldn't necessarily make Adolin more "safe". He's still a ripe fruit to pick out for a tragedy factor.

Edited January 23, 2018 by SLNC

[Greywatch]

Just now, SLNC said:

I'm not trying to devalue your interpretation of it, please don't see it as such. I'm just trying to propose a different theory to emphasize, that both theories are plausible, but none are set in stone, because we have no hard evidence, since we don't know the true signs of a revival going on. We're just speculating, which is fine, but we should treat it as such.

I'm just saying that something so outside of what was said to be possible for dead spren has happened, and that to say that Maya isn't being revived - whether that's 100% restoration or not - seems like a take that deliberately ignores all the facts around the entire plotline. It's not speculation to say that she's being revived - she's already been revived some. It's a fact.

[GarrethGrey]

I don't hate Adolin, he's a pretty cool guy, but a boring character overall. One of his only "flaws" now (which isn't even a flaw), is the fact that in a world of Radiants, where basically all the important people in his life are Radiants, he is not. Having him be the only person in the thousands of years that there have been dead shardblades, revive his blade and become an KR is just ridiculous to me. All this does is further pound home this perfect, can do no wrong, awesome Adolin. He's so great he's the only person that treats his blade nice and because of that he revives it, oh and it just so happens to be an Edgedancer blade that he presumably has, and he just happens to be perfect for the role of an Edgedancer...I mean come on.

I'm pretty sure he will revive Maya though. It seems pretty likely from what we read in OB, but it's more than a little frustrating because again, Adolin just keeps getting things to work out for him because well, he's Adolin. 

Now if he actually has to go through some trials and tribulations in order to ultimately revive her, and shardblades as a whole start reviving, then I'll be a little more accepting of this plot. But if its just Adolin doing it because he's Adolin, no thanks. 

Obviously this all just my opinon, and this wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just frustration with Adolins character in general.

[Dreamstorm]

28 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

It's not speculation to say that she's being revived - she's already been revived some. It's a fact.

Another point for Shadolin - Shallan and Adolin both are bonded to semi-conscious spren  (Non-serious snark, but I couldn't resist )

17 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

Now if he actually has to go through some trials and tribulations in order to ultimately revive her, and shardblades as a whole start reviving, then I'll be a little more accepting of this plot. But if its just Adolin doing it because he's Adolin, no thanks. 

I'm with you here, but my guess is SA4 will be a big book for Adolin. Things which I think are hinted at that could happen next book: Dalinar reduced opinion of him, finding out how his mother died, breaking up with his wife, having his ex-wife start dating his best friend, something more with Sadeas murder (likely internal), Maya revival, conflict with Rira (mother's homeland). Now if we go by how OB went for Adolin, none of that will come to pass and/or even if it did, it will have no impact on him. But there seems to be a lot of plot threads which will give him some interest. But I know everyone said that after WoR too LOL. 

[BraidedRose]

@GarrethGrey I agree with you that how much I enjoy the likely Maya revival plot depends a lot on how it plays out. I hope it adds depth to Adolin’s character and isn’t as simple as Adolin being a nice guy that allows it to work. Given the depth of tragedy of the Recreance, I would hope undoing even a tiny piece of it would be hard won. I think there is great potential to the arc but it would require Adolin going deeper than he has so far to really work for me.

[maxal]

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

This isn't "Highlander". We have gotten 2 other Windrunner PoVs despite having Kaladin - who has vastly more page-space than Lift, and a few aspiring ones to boot. Not to mention that Lift's pecularities make her very different from standard Edgedancers and may even result in inabilty to have squires. Oh, and she will be mostly with the Azish until the second series at least, whereas they desperately need some Edgedancers in Urithiru and on the Shattered Plains/Unclaimed Hills, which are going to be flooded with starving refugees from Alethkar. After all, unlike with Lift, normal Edgedancers using Regrowth on plants would result in more food. And there are going to be a lot of sick and hurt people for them to tend to as well. So, yea, we need lots and lots of Edgedancers ASAP.

I personally never bought into the argument stating it was bad for the narrative for Adolin to become an Edgedancer because we already got Lift. I once made the argument I personally found Adolin to be a much more interesting Edgedancer than Lift. I always found the Edgedancer oaths of remembering and listening the forgotten would demand a bigger, more interesting and outside of the box growth out of Adolin than it is actually demanding out of Lift. Lift, it seemed, was merely acknowledging what she already was as she said her oaths, she was already listening to the forgotten, she is one of them. Prince Adolin might actually have a harder time with transgressing his entire upbringing and upper tier world to do it. 

I always found those possibilities very interesting, not redundant at all. Adolin as an Edgedancer doesn't take away anything out of Lift. I don't care if Lift is supposed to be the "main Edgedancer", she won't be a main character until several more years down the road. By the time we get there, she will be a full Radiant. What's wrong is reading a more prominent character grow into the order? A more out of the box pick? Especially considering how Adolin is potentially reviving his dead Blade? How is that NOT interesting?

So I'm with you here: the fact we have Lift doesn't bar Adolin from making it to the same order. It might even be more interesting.

On the matter of Adolin dying because he no longer has conflicts nor a purpose within the narrative, I say now is not the time. Elhokar died and it hardly caused a ripple effect within the other characters when everything indicate it would. Adolin dying wouldn't be the dramatic event some are suggesting, but it would remove from the story a character which once had potential. It didn't actually happen in OB, Adolin had a very small disconnected and not very satisfying arc, but he remains the only non-magical viewpoint of the story.

When everyone within your cast has become magical, then the only character who isn't suddenly becomes a great deal lot more interesting. It is however up to Brandon to pick up Adolin's character and to write a narrative worth reading with him in it. Say if he were to do it, it'd be awesome, certainly not redundant nor boring.

[insert_anagram_here]

I'm hoping that Maya will be the catalyst for Adolin.

Surely I'm not the only one that finds Adolin a rather bland character. That's mostly because he doesn't seem genuinely active in all the events surrounding him. It's like things fall into his lap and he just grabs the opportunity to take part in it. He doesn't actively chose what's happening to him, not the fact that he is a prince, not the fact that he is betrothed, it's like he just falls in line to what the world is giving him. So I think the Maya's revival plot-line, even if it isn't a main character one, can give insight to Recreance's consequences to the spren and Roshar, but at the same time be a catalyst to Adolin's story and who he really is. I agree that the escalated point for Adolin's death has probably already passed but if he is meant to die, I'd love to see something interesting about him. And this Maya bit can actually be just that. 

Either he does revive her and he gains retribution as a character (much like Elhokar) or he fails and realizes he's not the "Prince that was Promised" after all, both I support and hope for. Anything to give him more substance.

[+tabitreader]

Kaladin doesn't love her, she reminded him of the feeling Tien gave him which took the weight of the world he felt. Not romantic love, platonic.

[Info_Drone-0451]

47 minutes ago, tabitreader said:

Kaladin doesn't love her, she reminded him of the feeling Tien gave him which took the weight of the world he felt. Not romantic love, platonic.

Alright this has been talked before. Here's my take on it and I think some people agree with me.

Just because she vaguely reminds him of his brother, or how he made him feel, just doesn't mean that a romantic relationship can't happen. It's very weak reasoning in Kaladin's part for him to step out of the triangle and it feels forced.

 If the whole triangle what set up as a character development through her choice for Shallan, why enter Kaladin's feelings into it? If she had to make a coice regarding which person was "good" for her and that choice had to always be from the beginning Adolin,  because without him she "fades" (I still almost vomit in my mouth when thinking of that line), what was the reasoning for Kaladin to have romantic feelings for her? If he was to vaguely associate her with his brother, so therefore he doesn't really love her (which as a sentiment and phrasing makes absolutely no sense to me), why not have it be like that from the beginning? Why not have something like: "Hey, that lighteyes reminds me somewhat of Tien. I have brotherly feelings toward her and I want to protect her. That's storming strange but I want to protect a lighteyes. Maybe I'm too prejudiced towards them and some are good"? I know that I'm not much of a writter but wouldn't that be a better plot for Kaladin to get through one of his issues? Shallan could still lust after him but in the end she could decide that he isn't for her, since it's just passion from her and he doesn't see her like that. I'd be more that fine with that. Instead what we get is the beginnings of a romantic plot that gets killed within a couple of pages with the weakest of reasoning  from all sides and feels like a complete mishandling of all characters involved, while being written in a very archetypal and uninteresting manner ("Without you I fade" *blergh*). 

All these were taken from previous comments I made. 

And here's @DeployParachute's take on the matter.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by DimChatz

[+tabitreader]

She is married now. Alethi propriety and honor breaks this triangle fantasy.

I can't see Brandon doing this in future novels. Too polarizing for his art.

[Info_Drone-0451]

40 minutes ago, tabitreader said:

She is married now. Alethi propriety and honor breaks this triangle fantasy.

I can't see Brandon doing this in future novels. Too polarizing for his art.

Also has been discussed before. I feel like you haven't read this thread and I don't blame you. Here's a summery of it.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

Also I don't think that Brandon is the kind of artist that shies away from difficult matters just because people might find the polarizing. Don't forget that he has included LGBT characters in the past years (i.e. Drehy, Ranette). Also marriage doesn't mean happily ever after and there're issues with Shallan's and Adolin's marriage that need to be adressed and if they cannot be solved then separation is always an option. Again all this stuff have been covered so many times and in such depth here that it has been said that we're going in circles. ANd the triangle was never a fantasy that few readers came up with and is completely unsupported.

Edited January 24, 2018 by DimChatz

[Humming]

1 hour ago, tabitreader said:

She is married now. Alethi propriety and honor breaks this triangle fantasy.

I can't see Brandon doing this in future novels. Too polarizing for his art.

You mean the same Alethi property and honor that Navani and Dalinar ignored to get married?

[Isilel]

13 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

This just...completely reduces the emotional and narrative impact of the Recreance.  These spren aren't really truly gone, lost because of the betrayal of their Radiants.  They can be brought back, you see!

Yes. That's how it is with investiture - it is very difficult to completely destroy it. Splintered Shards can be reconstituted too and I doubt that you'd be up an arms about the fact that Honor isn't truly gone and most likely will be brought back .

Quote

Oh, and don't worry yourself with thoughts of how its supposed to be super duper extremely hard to do this, because our boy Adolin is here to show us the way.  If anyone can do it, he can, yes indeedily doo.

Let the hate flow through you, young Jedi ! Why shouldn't it be an accomplished swordsman, who has a particularly close bond to his shardblade and who has been under the influence of the principles from the "Way of Kings" and slowly aligning with the Radiant ideals for years? Who else is there? Kal refused to have anything to do with dead shardblades and Dalinar's evolution necessitated him giving up his. There are hints that yes, it could have been him, but the Stormfather is a jealous spren and Dalinar also needed to give up swords in order to learn to solve things by other means. That was, in part, why he didn't bond Jezrien's Honorblade either, much as as this, and it's "sudden, but inevitable" theft frustrated me at the time.  There are also hints that Oathbringer will be revived as well - Dalinar already wants to make sure that it ends up "in good hands". Which, as a complete aside, will be Taln's, IMHO.

12 hours ago, SLNC said:

Yes, this was basically the trigger of this discussion and I think, that a Maya revival plot wouldn't necessarily make Adolin more "safe". He's still a ripe fruit to pick out for a tragedy factor.

I do think it fairly likely that Adolin will die in book 5, simply because the Radiants and/or PoV characters can't be completely immune if we are to take the threat of the Final Desolation seriously, and Sanderson doesn't have it in him to kill Kaladin, whereas killing Shallan as yet another of the already underrepresented  female PoVs would also be somewhat problematic. That doesn't mean that there isn't potentially interesting and impactful stuff for him to do between now and then. Of course, it is up to the author - OB was a bit of a missed opportunity in that regard.

12 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

 Having him be the only person in the thousands of years that there have been dead shardblades, revive his blade and become an KR is just ridiculous to me. All this does is further pound home this perfect, can do no wrong, awesome Adolin. He's so great he's the only person that treats his blade nice and because of that he revives it, oh and it just so happens to be an Edgedancer blade that he presumably has, and he just happens to be perfect for the role of an Edgedancer...I mean come on.

How many of these other shardbearers have met and interacted with their blade's dead spren in Shadesmar and have been around when all 3 Realms were united? How is it "ridiculous" that these unprecedented events led to an unprecedented result? And did it occur to you that Adolin's "niceness" is the result of traits that align him with the Edgedancers' Ideals?  Which, BTW, was a process that has been happening throughout WoK and WoR. Only after the Tower did Adolin truly start up that path. 

Yes, it was luck that Adolin ended up with a shardblade of a compatible Order. But due to Nale's shenangians we know have proof that many people do, to some degree, fit more than one Order. So, it was, like, 20% chance that he'd get one, rather than one in thousands.

I also disagree that a character has to be a tragic drama-queen to be enjoyable. Personally, I find it refreshing that a character that would normally be killed early in an epic fantasy novel so that an all-too-common drama-laden "unlikely hero" stereotype is forced to step up, can instead be a continuing character in his own right. Nor did I find Adolin's character development lacking or devoid of challenges in WoK and WoR (except that we _really_ should have seen his reaction to Shallan's "death" when that bridge dropped).

Edited January 24, 2018 by Isilel

[Dreamstorm]

4 hours ago, tabitreader said:

Kaladin doesn't love her, she reminded him of the feeling Tien gave him which took the weight of the world he felt. Not romantic love, platonic.

The below is pretty dirty in Brandon-speak.  Also throwing in the WoR quote where Kaladin is aroused.  You can say Kaladin doesn't want to be in a romantic relationship with Shallan (which I agree he is telling himself right now), but it's pretty obvious he'd jump all over the chance to have sex with her if it was permitted (culturally and by Kal's own moral code.)

Quote

Her heedless joy made him want to show her how to really fly.  She didn't have Lashings, but could still use her body to sculpt the wind and dance in the air...

OB, Ch. 60, Winds and Oaths

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For now, he wanted to think - though he was still glad for her presence.  And aware of it in more ways than one, pushed against him and wearing the wet, increasingly tattered dress.

WOR, Ch. 74, Striding the Storm

 

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

(except that we _really_ should have seen his reaction to Shallan's "death" when that bridge dropped)

I'm guessing it was along the lines of, "UGHHHH, now I have to go through this courting thing AGAIN.  Why won't any relationship work out for me??  This time no one can blame it me at least.  Wait.... I chose to save my father over the girl.  UGH, everyone is totally going to say this is my fault.  And Jasnah isn't even around to find me another one to make it easy.  Why can't I just duel, lounge and flirt my whole life away?!?" 

[Rainier]

5 hours ago, tabitreader said:

She is married now. Alethi propriety and honor breaks this triangle fantasy.

You activated my trap card! Seriously this is one of the least convincing arguments for continuing the marriage because one thing we absolutely know is that Alethi propriety is breaking down in the face of the Desolations. Another thing we absolutely know is that Lightweavers do not swear oaths, they progress to higher levels of self-awareness. These two things together means that if Shallan has to divorce Adolin to save Pattern, nobody (among our main characters) will think twice. Shallan already has a built-in out waiting for her, she just has to be self-aware enough to use it.

I've said it before elsewhere, but divorce is very much on the table, and neither Alethi propriety nor the oaths of the Nahel bond are good arguments against it. If anything we should expect Shallan to break oaths if for no other reason than to remind us that her order is not an order of oaths, but of truths. 

[Greywatch]

And yet Shallan still took the marriage oaths and treated them seriously, and knows that everybody in her life takes oaths seriously and she'd definitely break the oaths holding her in good standing with people she cares about just to show us that she can. Definitely would fly well with Kaladin who himself is extremely close to the oath-keeping side of the Radiants. It would damage her relationships and personal/family reputation but I'm sure it's fine.