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[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

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I'm adding my two cents to this.

What I think that @Dreamstorm is saying is that you don't have to love your partner's faults to love them. But you must  recognise these faults and not dismiss or ignore them, and despite that choose to be with them. But you should be aware of how they might affect the relationship,  when you're choosing to be with someone despite their flaws, and try to do your best to support your partner through it but not to, patronizingly, try to fix it for them. You have to be prepared to face struggles, not to expect that through love (a necessary condition, but not a sufficient one) all will be fine.  It shows that you're confident enough in your feelings and that you know your partner well enough to help them overcome their issue, if indeed the issue is that serious that needs to be overcome (i.e someone can get used to having a messy partner but a gambling addiction isn't something to get accustomed to and ignore, but something to help overcome). If you aren't sure about any of that then, perhaps, it would be better to not be with them because a possible break up may exacerbate their condition. 

Let me know if I'm getting it wrong.

Edited by DimChatz
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Each person has different predispositions about different flaws and intensities of such flaws, based on their own experiences and sometimes previous trauma. That's why different combinations of people are a better match as a couple than others. For example, a person might be okay of their partner's occasional alcoholism, if that said alcoholic person shows amends but relapses. But the same person might realize it is time to get a divorce if this alcoholism turns into violence towards anyone, including other family members. Later on in life, in future relationships, they might even treat the slightest trace of alcoholism as a deal breaker.

Same goes for infidelity, gambling or unlawful activity. It just depends on the people involved.

Since these flaws are not always present before marriage, but most of the time emerge years after the couple has been together, they usually lead to serious issues in the relationship. Sometimes the bond between the involved ones is strong enough to surpass these, sometimes it isn't. Yes, surpassing one of these great flaws together, makes the bond of love stronger but under no circumstances I do not believe a married person is obliged to deal with their partner's issues, that is why a divorce should always be an option.

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6 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

but under no circumstances I do not believe a married person is obliged to deal with their partner's issues, that is why a divorce should always be an option.

Oh, I agree. I didn't mean to imply that once you've made your choice you're stuck. Failure is always an option and at some point you should start caring for yourself. If you can't help your partner and the relationship has reached such a tipping point then yes, separation and divorce (depending on the nature of the relationship) is totally a valid choice.

Edited by DimChatz
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I also think love is too strong a word. I just used it because love was the word in the Rothfuss quote and Sanderson has used the word love. I think infatuation works much better for all three involved. Adolin is infatuated with Kaladin, Kaladin is infatuated with Shallan, and Shallan is infatuated with Adolin (and Kaladin and Jasnah and maybe a few other people :)). They make a nice ring of infatuation.

 

@Vissy I am sorry the Rothfuss quote makes you think of abusive relationships. I don't think about that at all when I read that quote. If someone is in an abusive relationship they should absolutely save themselves. When I read that quote I think of less extreme situations. If someone is in a relationship (not abusive) with a basically good person and holds that person's flaws against them I think that is wrong. It does seem like expecting perfection or only loving perfection and that is lame to me. Love is about loving the whole person and not picking and choosing. @SLNC and @Dreamstorm said it well.

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9 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I also think love is too strong a word. I just used it because love was the word in the Rothfuss quote and Sanderson has used the word love. I think infatuation works much better for all three involved. Adolin is infatuated with Kaladin, Kaladin is infatuated with Shallan, and Shallan is infatuated with Adolin (and Kaladin and Jasnah and maybe a few other people :)). They make a nice ring of infatuation.

 

@Vissy I am sorry the Rothfuss quote makes you think of abusive relationships. I don't think about that at all when I read that quote. If someone is in an abusive relationship they should absolutely save themselves. When I read that quote I think of less extreme situations. If someone is in a relationship (not abusive) with a basically good person and holds that person's flaws against them I think that is wrong. It does seem like expecting perfection or only loving perfection and that is lame to me. Love is about loving the whole person and not picking and choosing. @SLNC and @Dreamstorm said it well.

Rothfuss didn't come up with that quote, it's an old, soppy idea that has been kicking around forever.

Anyway. To bring this all the way back to the ASK discussion, how is Adolin going to help Shallan (or even accept Shallan as she is) in the future books if he still doesn't "know" her? How do you see this development between them going?

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Lately I've read a lot about the triangle discussion being about purely shipping. I can't help but disagree. I'm not a 'shipper' myself, the subjetive involvement I get with fictional couples or pairings is close to 0 most of times. I may like or dislike a pair of characters together, but I'm finr with as long as it respects the narrative.

My point is that this triangle was brought as an important part of the Shallan reintegration arc, and thus, the resolution of it was underwhelming according to the hints at earlier chapters. It's important to attend at the triangle as an important subplot more than something subjetive like pairing preferences, because it envolves the character development of 2 main characters.

Anyway, I admit that subjectively I'm a bit biased towards Shalladin, but if we take this point in the narrative as a red herring it is cheap drama. Cheap drama because as it was handled in the ending brought nothing to Kal's development, neither for Shallan nor Alodin! You may differ and say that indeed showed the further fracturing of Shallan but that could be showed with other facts and not with a supposed love interest that is not from Shallan's. 

The foreshadowing and hints have been introducing something subtle between Kaladin and Shallan, something that even happens off screen like the flight to draw Urithiru. Things like this makes you wonder if Sanderson has been hinting to something between these two and just changed his mind like a writer does in the middle of his magnum opus. So it's not a matter of preferences, it's a matter of writing. I'd like to explain myself in more depth but I have to take a bus.

A total waste of pages if it was a red herring, not necessary and not bringing something useful to the story, just a bait for potential shippers and other fans.  

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2 hours ago, Humming said:

Lately I've read a lot about the triangle discussion being about purely shipping. I can't help but disagree. I'm not a 'shipper' myself, the subjetive involvement I get with fictional couples or pairings is close to 0 most of times. I may like or dislike a pair of characters together, but I'm finr with as long as it respects the narrative.

My point is that this triangle was brought as an important part of the Shallan reintegration arc, and thus, the resolution of it was underwhelming according to the hints at earlier chapters. It's important to attend at the triangle as an important subplot more than something subjetive like pairing preferences, because it envolves the character development of 2 main characters.

Yeah, a lot of people hate romance plots, a lot of people love Shadolin, some people are just kinda jerks, so they aren't going to want there to be anything more (or just want to be rude), so they will condescend any attempt to make discussing it about anything but "omg Shalladin is my favorite" type feelings.  As a consequence for both us (since we have to deal with the condescension) and them (since they have to deal with knowing people discuss something they really don't want discussed), online communities force interaction in a way which doesn't happen in real life.

2 hours ago, Vissy said:

To bring this all the way back to the ASK discussion, how is Adolin going to help Shallan (or even accept Shallan as she is) in the future books if he still doesn't "know" her? How do you see this development between them going?

I'll take the pro-Shadolin side of this.  We know from WoB that Shallan has made a step forward in both her control of her masks (I'm using masks now since that is the Brandon-approved word) and in implementing Wit's advice.  My personal belief is that step was during the Thaylen City battle when she forcibly stopped herself from creating other masks and restricted herself to just the three.  One of these masks, Shallan, is debatably not even a mask, but Shallan with certain painful aspects pushed to the side and onto Veil and Radiant.  Adolin prefers and selected this Shallan, but he also has told her he's fine with the cracked inside of her (i.e. the things she pushed away.)  So what to make of it... Adolin is going to help Shallan further repress Veil and Radiant by preferring Shallan to them (we see this with him treating Veil differently) and that will help Shallan "suffocate" those masks further until she won't be able to rely on them.  Once she can't rely on them, she will be forced to reintegrate the aspects of herself to shuffled off onto Veil and Radiant, which in turn will make Shallan herself stronger by being less fragmented.  Adolin's preference for Shallan over Veil and Radiant will help her get there.  The main issue I see is who will Shallan be with those other pieces reintegrated, but since Adolin has already said he accepts all of Shallan (and it's his personality in general) I see him just rolling with the punches and accepting whatever may come.  The more concerning side is how Shallan will deal with this, but since Adolin will be an anchor throughout the whole process, I doubt she will abandon this anchor; they will have shared so much together she will not want to put aside that shared history even if he doesn't match the ideal for reintegrated Shallan the way he did for Shallan minus those less conforming parts of herself.  We all evolve with our partners in our relationships, and both Adolin and Shallan (and particularly Adolin) have shown themselves to be very adaptable.

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I'm definitly not on board with that version of healing, because it basically amounts to Adolin supposedly wanting to accept all of 'Shallan', but then he essentially forces Shallan to further repress and suffocate two aspects of herself. This then leads to her having to reintegrate (not sure if there is a better term) those aspects of her personality because she basically cracks and can't use them anymore. And then Adolin, being Adolin, just accepts everything that's happening and again he plays the role of the perfect prince charming who can do no wrong. 

This to me seems not only like a very negative way for Shallan to heal (forced repression, suffocation) but also shows a situation in which Adolin does not accept pieces of Shallan (Veil, Radiant) but then when those pieces of Shallan wear Shallans face, he's completely fine with them and accepts everything. Seems a bit odd to me, but it is something I could see happening, I just really hope it doesn't. It just makes Adolins character even worse in my opinion (from a narrative perspective) by having him essentially do the wrong thing, and yet it still all works out for him. 

A better way for him to help Shallan heal, would be for him to start treating Veil and Radiant the same as Shallan, because Veil and Radiant are basically Shallan (minus a few personality traits she gave them that she herself didn't have) they're just masks that she wears to hide behind. This would hopefully lead to the realization by Shallan that those aspects of herself that she didn't like/think she shouldn't have, or didn't want, are actually ok, and that its perfectly fine for Shallan to just be herself. This gets a little more complicated when you think of why she created these masks, particularly Radiant, she couldn't wield Pattern because she killed her mother with him, and shes not ready to accept that. But this seems like a much more positive route for Shallans healing, instead of repression and suffocation, we would get acceptance and understanding. But, seeing how Adolin was treating Veil at the end of OB, and Veils feelings about Adolin, I don't really see something like this happening. So I'd say that the situation @Dreamstorm suggested is probably more plausible, especially from the way Adolin has been written as a character, it just really wouldn't sit right with me.

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4 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

A better way for him to help Shallan heal, would be for him to start treating Veil and Radiant the same as Shallan, because Veil and Radiant are basically Shallan (minus a few personality traits she gave them that she herself didn't have) they're just masks that she wears to hide behind. This would hopefully lead to the realization by Shallan that those aspects of herself that she didn't like/think she shouldn't have, or didn't want, are actually ok, and that its perfectly fine for Shallan to just be herself.

It's funny, when you realize, that there already is someone, who does exactly that. Kaladin.

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@SLNC I know right?

Actually, I've been meaning to bring this up because I'm pretty sure nobody has mentioned it. But Shallan and Kaladin have a conversation on a ship in Shadesmar while Syl is captive. During this conversation Shallan slips into "Veil" speak and starts talking about stealing stuff and breaking Syl out. Kaladin just keeps talking to her like normal, zero reaction whatsoever, then at the end of the conversation Shallan realizes what she was saying and says to herself  "Was that Veil just now?". What that says to me is that Shallan is so comfortable with Kaladin, that she lets her guard down and actually forgets about her masks, and so aspects of her personality that she shipped off to Veil, start to slip back into Shallan and she doesnt even realize it. This leads me to believe that it is Kaladin who is the one that truly encourages Shallan to be herself. Contrast this with Adolin, where is she is completely on guard with everything she says and does, so as not to let anything but the perfect Shallan he's always seen, be seen. 

Another section (this one has been brought up several times) where Veil starts to slip into Shallan is the scene through Adolins POV, when she's looking at Kal and all of sudden stands up straighter, solidly on 2 feet, and essentially drools over him, obviously Veil-esque reactions to Kaladin, but she's Shallan at the time, and she mentions to herself about having to draw that image of him later, not something Veil would say. So again Shallan is letting her guard down and the masks are slipping away without her even realizing it when she's around Kaladin. 

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10 hours ago, GarrethGrey said:

Actually, I've been meaning to bring this up because I'm pretty sure nobody has mentioned it. But Shallan and Kaladin have a conversation on a ship in Shadesmar while Syl is captive. During this conversation Shallan slips into "Veil" speak and starts talking about stealing stuff and breaking Syl out. Kaladin just keeps talking to her like normal, zero reaction whatsoever, then at the end of the conversation Shallan realizes what she was saying and says to herself  "Was that Veil just now?". What that says to me is that Shallan is so comfortable with Kaladin, that she lets her guard down and actually forgets about her masks, and so aspects of her personality that she shipped off to Veil, start to slip back into Shallan and she doesnt even realize it. This leads me to believe that it is Kaladin who is the one that truly encourages Shallan to be herself. Contrast this with Adolin, where is she is completely on guard with everything she says and does, so as not to let anything but the perfect Shallan he's always seen, be seen. 

Thank you! I've been thinking about exactly this scene and couldn't fund a way to put into words!

Also, I'm considering this. Shallan has told Kaladin about her plan to steal Jasnah's soulcaster, in the chasms scene, which is bold and reckless. And that's why I think that Kaladin is absolutely justified to attribute the mutiny plan on the boat to Shallan, and not Veil. Kaladin probably thought that such reckless and bold plan was in lines with the person who planned to steal Jasnah's soulcaster or the person who killed her own father to protect her family. He doesn't see the mask not only because he isn't aware of its existance, but also he doesn't see it as separate from Shallan who thinks that she's actively channeling Veil at that point and thinks that the mask is suggesting the plan.

Edited by DimChatz
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On 1/18/2018 at 3:50 AM, Vissy said:

Rothfuss didn't come up with that quote

So? That quote is the first time I have come across that particular idea said in that particular way. It made a lot of sense to me and I really like it.

 

There are people who see Shallan and Adolin as set in stone since they are married now. I have been trying to image Shallan and Adolin are happy together forever and that Shallan and Kaladin are never going to happen. I am really struggling with this. I don't see how Adolin can really help Shallan unless he knows where her problems are coming from. Shallan would have to tell Adolin about killing her parents and her childhood. It might happen and it might not. We do not know. So far there are no signs that she will. I have been thinking that Shallan's brothers will help Shallan heal.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that Shallan saying it's alright to be happy is a step forward for her. I don't agree. This is exactly what Shallan has always done. Early in OB she says the key to happiness wasn't clinging to one moment but ensuring many future happy moments. She has always worked toward her own happiness. She has always wanted to be happy and not feel pain. I don't see a change in Shallan from early in OB to the end of OB. Whereas I really liked Kaladin struggling and failing to say his fourth ideal. I am really frustrated that Shallan's non-progress is celebrated as great leaps forward. Shallan's arc seemed to end on a really happy note and I feel like she did not make any progress. 

 

ETA: It feels weirdly like Shallan's sub arc of "which man should I choose" is treated like her main arc, when surely her main arc is her progress as a knight radiant. As a knight radiant I do not feel she has progressed

Edited by wotbibliophile
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30 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

ETA: It feels weirdly like Shallan's sub arc of "which man should I choose" is treated like her main arc, when surely her main arc is her progress as a knight radiant. As a knight radiant I do not feel she has progressed

The path of a Lightweaver is self awareness. I think that Shallan still struggling with her lies and hidden traumas are the obstacle she finds in her path, similar to how Kaladin in OB wasn't ready for his fourth oath because he still want to protect everyone on his own.

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Also Pattern has been acting a lot more quiet and reserved during the later parts of OB.

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1 hour ago, wotbibliophile said:

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that Shallan saying it's alright to be happy is a step forward for her. I don't agree. This is exactly what Shallan has always done. Early in OB she says the key to happiness wasn't clinging to one moment but ensuring many future happy moments. She has always worked toward her own happiness. She has always wanted to be happy and not feel pain. I don't see a change in Shallan from early in OB to the end of OB. Whereas I really liked Kaladin struggling and failing to say his fourth ideal. I am really frustrated that Shallan's non-progress is celebrated as great leaps forward. Shallan's arc seemed to end on a really happy note and I feel like she did not make any progress. 

I just went through the entire beta reader AMA today, and I found the discussion on Shallan's mental state to be interesting. All of the betas who commented as well as Peter (Brandon's assistant) found it odd that anyone would think Shallan's mental health issues were resolved. I particularly liked this quote below from a beta who asked Brandon about Shallan's progress. To me this supports the idea that her "control" over creating her masks has improved, as evidenced by her strength in deciding she did not need more masks in order to create her army at the Thaylen City battle, but the other things people point to as "progress", i.e. Adolin seeing the "real" her, her certainty at her romantic decision, her discordant happiness at the end, aren't the focal points of the progress which was made. Lack of further fracturing is something to be celebrated, so I can definitely see that as progress, and I love the prose we got at that moment - Shallan almost faltering at seeing her mother's illusion, the strength of her full self of all three masks combined, her resolve in seeing she needs no more masks. That is the girl who stood up. 

Quote

He said she is able to control herself more, so she is improved by the end of the book, but she still has a long road of recovery ahead of her.

 

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Most of the betas also seem to think that the "love triangle" is over and that Shallan is with Adolin kthxbye. A lot of them seemed to loathe the mere idea of Shalladin :D

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1 hour ago, Vissy said:

eem to think that the "love triangle" is over and that Shallan is with Adolin kthxbye

Well, I think that the triangle is over, from a certain point of view. Shallan made her choice and only time will tell if it was the right one. What cannot be denied though, is that the feelings for Shalladin were there and still are there on both sides. What also cannot be denied is there're issues in Shallan's and Adolin's marriage, which doesn't have the healthiest of foundations. These stuff will surely need to be addressed. But it would be such a cop out and a waste of page space if the the romantic plotlines were over, as they were left at the end of OB. If that's the case then fine, the author made a mistake nothing I can do for that. But I think that he's going somewhere with this and that he's trying to stir the reader somewhere, because if he truly wanted to end it he could have done it so much more conclusively and convincingly, and the purpose of this thread has become to find out the final destination of all this foreshadowing and hinting.

Does it sound that I'm saying that the triangle is both over and not over at the same time? I hope I'm making sense.

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

Also Pattern has been acting a lot more quiet and reserved during the later parts of OB.

Which makes me wonder this: If Shallan's and Pattern's bond is indeed fraying that means that she won't be able to lightweave. What will that mean for her masks? Will she still be able to create them and push whatever she doesn't want to confront to them? In case she isn't, does that mean she will confront herself or will she lock all the "bad" stuff away and be the perfect mask all the time? Or will she be forced to confront herself, all of herself? And what kind of person will imerge from that confrontation? What will that person want and need in her life?

Those are questions regarding Shallan's growth and progression, and are not exclusively tied to the romantic subplots. The opposite is true. The romantic suplots are tied to her progression. And I think we can all agree that Shallan still has ways to go before she's in a healthy state of mind, which is also tied to her progression even tighter that the romance.

Edited by DimChatz
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I don't think anyone believes that getting married has cured Shallan. I do think it is the end of the love triangle. 

Pattern has claimed that Shallan is going to kill him. I don't think he sees the future but more that he knows Shallan still blames him partly for killing her mother.  I like the idea @DimChaz brings up of her losing her ability being what finally forces her to face her past. Of course that opens up a whole new plot tangle since losing a lightweaver hurts team Kholin in the war. Would a cured but powerless Shallan prove herself valuable in other ways? Would the Cryptics send her another spren?   

Wild but unlikely theory : Hoid returns and gives her Elokar's orphaned cryptic.

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Just to clarify, what does everyone mean when they say that the love triange is over? Do you mean that Shallan and Adolin are married and that's the end of it, they're together and nothing will happen in the future between Shallan and Kaladin? Or is it something else? Tbh, I don't really even think it was much of a "triangle" to begin with, Kaladin never pursued Shallan, and Shallan never confronted her feelings about him.

I do think that Shallan is going to throw herself into her marriage and won't really ever think about Kaladin (especially since she's hidden away those feelings in Veil). And I also think Kal is probably going to distance himself from those two, he might even be mostly absent from Urithru for the majority of the year time skip, busying himself with other things, subconsciously making it easier for himself to not think about Shallan. But I really can't accept that there's no chance something can happen in the future. 

@GoddessIMHO Thats a really interesting theory! That would definitely be an intriguing plot development. Poor Pattern though if it does happen :(

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1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Would the Cryptics send her another spren?

Cryptics aren't like Honorspren so I don't think they have a problem with oathbreaking. That being said I don't think they would give her a second chance unless they were looking for more data points to form a hypothesis on human-spren relations or something vaguely scientific as that. I find it really doubtfull, though. No, I don't believe they would send her another cryptic, provided that cryptic would even want to go, if she killed Pattern. Not to mention it would be a bad plotting choice to show higher level spren as expendable. Bonding one is supposed to be a big matter, so losing one should be as well. That would be undercut by replacing one with a simple dispatch from the cryptics.

1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Wild but unlikely theory : Hoid returns and gives her Elokar's orphaned cryptic.

I agree. That's really unlikely. I think that Hoid could kind of lightweave even without a Cryptic as that was part of the magic system from his home planet or something (I think there's a WoB about it out there but my WoB-fu is terrible). Also I think he was using lightweaving when he told Kaladin that story about Wandersail back in tWoK. So why would he need a cryptic? To be able to soulcast. Hoid has his own plans and goals, so this somehow might fit into them (might not but in any case soulcasting is a useful skill). Those take priority over everyone and everything. He told Dalinar that he'd watch Roshar burn with tears in his eyes if he had to. So I don't think so that he'd go against his plans even for Shallan's sake.

25 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

Just to clarify, what does everyone mean when they say that the love triange is over?

I don't know what everyone means by over but here's what I mean.

I think the triangle ended when Shallan made a choice and was semi-honest about her feeling for Kaladin and decided to ingore them. But I do believe that Shallan's and Adolin's marriage can and might run into issues and that a relationship between Kaladin and Shallan can still happen. It's pretty clear that both had feelings for each other, but those feelings where dealt with so unconvincingly at the end OB and so many things are hinted at and foreshadowed, as has been shown within this very thread, that it can't be the end because why would the author bother to set all those things up. And things are being set up. So what I mean is that the triangle, or at least the possibility of it, is over is that for a triangle to exist both relationships should be manifesting simultaneously, which I believe means that you're right and there never was much of a triangle. I don't believe this will happen, that there would be infidelity. Or that Kaladin would be fine with that. If a relatioship between Kaladin and Shallan is to happen, then her marriage will need to have ended by then. And what I'm saying is that the portnents for such events to transpire are there.

Let me know if my elaboration on the matter is adequate enough. 

Edited by DimChatz
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@DimChatz Ahh thank you! That makes perfect sense, I guess that's kind of what I was thinking on my end too, I just couldn't put it into words.

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5 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

@DimChatz Ahh thank you! That makes perfect sense, I guess that's kind of what I was thinking on my end too, I just couldn't put it into words.

You did put it into words and you offered a likely scenario.:)

We're at very similar wavelengths, as proven before with the scene on the ship, because I had been thinking about it as well and couldn't find a way to put it into words.

Edited by DimChatz
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6 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

No, I don't believe they would send her another cryptic, provided that cryptic would even want to go, if she killed Pattern.

Actually, in WoK there were Cryptics basically swarming to bond with her, while Pattern was still in that semi-dead state (more his own tactical retreat to the Cognitive Realm). I don't think, that another Cryptic might have qualms of bonding with Shallan should she kill Pattern. Cryptics seem to be pretty... finalistic when it comes to Nahel bonds, as we can see of Pattern always saying, that Shallan will kill him anyway (which also could be interpreted as foreshadowing, albeit pretty damnation blatant)

That said, I don't think Shallan will kill Pattern. I simply think, that Pattern as a character is too developed to simply be exchanged by another Cryptic.

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3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That said, I don't think Shallan will kill Pattern. I simply think, that Pattern as a character is too developed to simply be exchanged by another Cryptic.

I can stand Amaram dying. I can stand Elhokar dying. I can stand Eshonai dying. I cannot stand Pattern dying.

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21 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That said, I don't think Shallan will kill Pattern. I simply think, that Pattern as a character is too developed to simply be exchanged by another Cryptic.

Yes I agree. I was trying to find possible plot related reasons as to why other cryptics wouldn't bond with Shallan. As I said it would be a bad choice to show higher level spren as being expendable. That also factors in Pattern being such a developed character. I also think that Pattern will not die, but I believe that there are issues with the bond or that issues will arise.

I also agree that cryptics wouldn't have qualms to send another, maybe only if they considered Shallan a failed experiment or something? And yes they're fatalistic with the bonds but they also want to study humanity as much as possible, so it might be as likely that they would send another cryptic to the same person as it would be to choose another? How many cryptics are there anyway? And how many would even want to bond in general? Isn't the transition from the gognitive realm to the physical supposed to be a painful experience? But yes, that swarmiong scene definitely supports your argument, but maybe they just find Shallan interesting as a liar. As Ivory said, if you speak one falsehood even in the cognitive realm a number of them would swarm you and I don't think they wanted to bond Ivory, as I think he was referring speaking falsehood then.

Alright, I've gone over the deep end now and I'm overthinking it. I'm not sure why as I find the point moot...:wacko:

17 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I can stand Amaram dying. I can stand Elhokar dying. I can stand Eshonai dying. I cannot stand Pattern dying.

I agree and as I've said I don't think he'll die. 

Edited by DimChatz
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