[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[MonsterMetroid]

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Such a goldmine, haha!  I realized (by clicking on your link!) you could search reddit for Brandon posts and found this about the timeskip.  No clue if this pertains to anything on this subject, but it looks like we will "miss" things which will be seen in flashbacks to fill us in later in the book.  Interesting...

Uh oh... now I wont be able to catch up to you in rep my secret has been revealed! Haha.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face.

I wonder how this will reflect on her bond with Pattern... This constant hiding. At least, we now know, that she is still in need of her masks. Or more that she perceives herself to be in need of her masks, she just stopped creating more.

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Some of this makes me think the personas are not integral parts of her, such as this line "She literally sketched out Veil and thought, 'Yup, I'm going to become that person now.'", which makes it seem like Veil is just a fantasy, like a role she's playing as an actor, instead of Veil's traits actually being part of herself.

Well, even if it is just a role she is playing, she still needs those traits in herself to apply them, right? What I've taken from that is, that these shortcomings she's trying to fix are more or less just perceived by her, but not actually there. So, she had those traits before, but perceived herself as not being able to apply them, so she created a mask for it, but now of course can't use these traits as Shallan anymore, because she perceives herself as unable to.

I wonder if that is also why Veil suddenly got the exact same feelings about Kaladin, that she had after Jasnah's stern talking to. Shallan perceived those as a shortcoming of herself, so she, maybe subconsciously, shoved them off to Veil, but didn't have them herself anymore. That doesn't make them less real though.

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

This seems to be the crux of it: "she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be" which makes me think the resolution will be tied less to figuring out what to do with these "masks" but more with Shallan figuring out who she wants to be.  Right now she wants to be a princess and lead a comfortable life with Adolin, so that really could be the conclusion if seen through this light.  But again, I can't decide if "Shallan" is a mask too or if not (based on this), but really the masks may be less important than Shallan figuring out who she is.

This seems to be correct. Its more about her finding herself. Everything kinda still seems in the open, because of the fact, that she still has Veil and Radiant.

At least, the ending still seems more like, that she let Adolin choose, who she should be.

Edited January 12, 2018 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

@SLNC I want to say I personally agree with every point you say here, but I'm always worried my own bias (in who I want Shallan to be and also in what all this could mean for Shallan and her character arc, including our favorite romantic debate, going forward) is effecting how I'm interpreting things.  Especially your last point, about how Adolin chose who Shallan should be, is something which made me not be able to start my SA reread when we first discussed this.  It literally made me ill to think this was being put up as a healthy thing; having a man choose who a woman should be (even if that wasn't the man's intent.)  I could rage against the goddamn patriarchy here, and I will restrain myself, but safe to say this brings up very strong emotions.  So I know I have that bias, and I know I want to interpret everything through that lens (I want to be able to like Brandon as an author!), so I try really hard to find counter-arguments to the points which support my bias.  Anyway, this was a personal ramble, but a couple actual points.

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

At least, we now know, that she is still in need of her masks. Or more that she perceives herself to be in need of her masks, she just stopped creating more.

I think this is the strongest "positive" IMO out of Brandon's post, that is does seem like "Shallan" is just another mask, as this seems to describe her perfectly: "Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes."  She hasn't faced her pain, she is still laughing things off and mostly telling us (the reader) and herself over and over again how she's happy!  It's ok to be happy!  It's good to celebrate!  Given the painful struggles we've seen Kaladin and Dalinar go through to accept their pain, I can't imagine we're supposed to think Shallan has taken that step.

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Well, even if it is just a role she is playing, she still needs those traits in herself to apply them, right? What I've taken from that is, that these shortcomings she's trying to fix are more or less just perceived by her, but not actually there. So, she had those traits before, but perceived herself as not being able to apply them, so she created a mask for it, but now of course can't use these traits as Shallan anymore, because she perceives herself as unable to.

While I think the text supports that she needs Veil and Radiant to be a whole person (or at least a person who is capable of progressing as a Radiant), the way Brandon phrased the creation of Veil is concerning to me.  He made it seem like Shallan dreamed up a character and brought it to life.  An actor can play a character who is nothing like them, so I worry that is what Shallan is supposed to be seen as doing - playing these characters "Veil" and "Radiant" in order to help her hide, when in fact Veil and Radiant aren't her as all and are just complete fabrications.  Note this contradicts what Wit tells her (they are all you, to paraphrase) but aligns with what we see Shallan do in the end (forcibly say, you both are fantasies and not me, even if I play your role occasionally.)  This is the part of Brandon's post which worries me the most, as I think the natural conclusion to this is not that Adolin chose the Shallan she should be, but that he recognized the "real" Shallan who was getting taken over by these fantasy creations.  I think this is what Shadolin supporters have said previously - there doesn't need to be a reintegration because Veil and Radiant aren't actually parts of Shallan at all.

[Greywatch]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I think this is the strongest "positive" IMO out of Brandon's post, that is does seem like "Shallan" is just another mask, as this seems to describe her perfectly: "Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes."  She hasn't faced her pain, she is still laughing things off and mostly telling us (the reader) and herself over and over again how she's happy!  It's ok to be happy!  It's good to celebrate!  Given the painful struggles we've seen Kaladin and Dalinar go through to accept their pain, I can't imagine we're supposed to think Shallan has taken that step.

Seeing as Shallan's whole arc through all three books has been self-hatred and fear, I don't think she needs to go through any more pain to make current happiness convincing. My reading, I can definitely imagine that. She still has more to go, but I'm relieved that she was finally allowing for the possibility that she's allowed to accept something good happening to her without talking herself out of it.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

While I think the text supports that she needs Veil and Radiant to be a whole person (or at least a person who is capable of progressing as a Radiant), the way Brandon phrased the creation of Veil is concerning to me.  He made it seem like Shallan dreamed up a character and brought it to life.  An actor can play a character who is nothing like them, so I worry that is what Shallan is supposed to be seen as doing - playing these characters "Veil" and "Radiant" in order to help her hide, when in fact Veil and Radiant aren't her as all and are just complete fabrications.  Note this contradicts what Wit tells her (they are all you, to paraphrase) but aligns with what we see Shallan do in the end (forcibly say, you both are fantasies and not me, even if I play your role occasionally.)  This is the part of Brandon's post which worries me the most, as I think the natural conclusion to this is not that Adolin chose the Shallan she should be, but that he recognized the "real" Shallan who was getting taken over by these fantasy creations.  I think this is what Shadolin supporters have said previously - there doesn't need to be a reintegration because Veil and Radiant aren't actually parts of Shallan at all.

Veil, in WoR, was treated exactly like Shallan creating a character to act, and that's what I got out of the WoB. Personally, I do think there will be some element of reintegration, but neither do I believe that Veil and Radiant are completely Shallan. Especially Veil, seeing as Shallan invented a backstory wholesale (and some elements of Veil come from this invented backstory). Shallan has clearly been experiencing the symptoms of something something dissociative, but I'm not on board with Veil and Radiant existing (as we know them in OB) also existing previously in WoK and WoR. Can't wait to see Shallan's unshrouded childhood in the text sometime, and I'd buy the tentative, unproven idea that Shallan had alters in the childhood we can't see, but neither would I die on that hill, either. 

Less important to the overall point, but I am also a female, feminist reader who isn't bothered by the plot point of Adolin seeing the real Shallan, mainly because this is a solid conclusion to both of their narrative arcs and the fulfillment of the theme of their relationship in OB

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Seeing as Shallan's whole arc through all three books has been self-hatred and fear, I don't think she needs to go through any more pain to make current happiness convincing.

I want a power-up.  Both our main male characters have received a visible, awe-inspiring power-ups when they accepted painful aspects of themselves/their pasts.  I will be severely disappointed if our main female character is denied this.  (This is not an argument for or against whether or not it happened, but my personal opinion of why from a gender equality perspective that would upset me.)

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Personally, I do think there will be some element of reintegration, but neither do I believe that Veil and Radiant are completely Shallan.

I see this as one of two options:

1. "Shallan", Veil and Radiant are three parts of whole Shallan (not equal parts, but they are all necessary to make whole Shallan.)  When Shallan is switching between them, there is no "real" Shallan for Adolin to recognize, thus he is choosing one of the three, which would by definition leave out parts of that whole.  In this paradigm, there is a need for reintegration in order for these three parts to become whole Shallan.
2. Shallan (what is called Shallan in the text) is the whole Shallan, and she created Veil and Radiant as fabrications to help her cope.  When Shallan is switching between them, she's alternating her "real" self with these two fabrications, and there is a real Shallan for Adolin to choose.  In this paradigm, there is no need for reintegration, because there is nothing to reintegrate; Shallan has always been whole Shallan, she just has these two characters she sometimes plays.

So I don't think you can have it both ways.  If you see #2 (which I know you do - you see Adolin as recognizing the real Shallan), there is no need to reintegrate, as Veil and Radiant were nothing but characters Shallan was sometimes playing.  (Now, Shallan could choose to try and incorporate some of the characteristics of those roles into her behavior, but it wouldn't be reintegration.  It would be like (random example) me seeing my friend speaking up in meetings and thinking, I should speak up in meetings too, even if that goes against my nature.)  

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

the fulfillment of the theme of their relationship in OB

Not related to the above (and you've probably stated this before), but what do you see as the theme of their relationship in OB?

Edited to add some extra thoughts on my feminist disapproval:  I have an issue with Adolin either choosing "Shallan" or recognizing the real Shallan, though the former is obviously quite disturbing, while the latter is just underwhelming and upsetting (to me) from a feminist perspective.  First, taking the independence and agency out of a character's big moment of realization lessens the impact of that realization.  Imagine if Navani was standing by Dalinar when he confronted Odium and she was saying to Dalinar "don't let him take your pain!" during the exchange.  That would lessen the impact of the moment dramatically by taking out of Dalinar's hands the realization that he would not let Odium have his pain.  This is what happened here; Shallan's realization (taking it as thus) would not have happened if not for Adolin standing there and guiding her to it.  It's fine to get help along the way, but to have sometime guiding your hand at the moment of realization takes that moment away from the character.  Second, it is made worse that it is a man guiding a woman.  I would still not like it if one of Shallan's female friends was recognizing the real her, but it adds a whole patriarchal overtone to have a man, let alone your significant other, be the one who is recognizing something fundamental for you.  Third, our two male characters get to struggle for their moments of realization alone.  Dalinar in front of Thaylen City as previously mentioned, and Kaladin fighting the rain in the training grounds and later in the King's palace.  It's flat out offensive (to me) that our main female character needs to be guided to her realization by a man when our men were capable of doing it on their own.  This is obviously a big opinion piece, but this is why I find the idea this was a true, real "realization" moment for Shallan offensive and it would be a large step backward for Brandon in his portrayal of women in his stories.  (Doesn't change whether or not it happened of course.  I also want to add it wouldn't matter for me if it was Kaladin guiding her to this realization; same feelings no matter who it is.)

Edited January 13, 2018 by Dreamstorm
Some feminist stuff

[Greywatch]

44 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I see this as one of two options:

1. "Shallan", Veil and Radiant are three parts of whole Shallan (not equal parts, but they are all necessary to make whole Shallan.)  When Shallan is switching between them, there is no "real" Shallan for Adolin to recognize, thus he is choosing one of the three, which would by definition leave out parts of that whole.  In this paradigm, there is a need for reintegration in order for these three parts to become whole Shallan.
2. Shallan (what is called Shallan in the text) is the whole Shallan, and she created Veil and Radiant as fabrications to help her cope.  When Shallan is switching between them, she's alternating her "real" self with these two fabrications, and there is a real Shallan for Adolin to choose.  In this paradigm, there is no need for reintegration, because there is nothing to reintegrate; Shallan has always been whole Shallan, she just has these two characters she sometimes plays.

So I don't think you can have it both ways.  If you see #2 (which I know you do - you see Adolin as recognizing the real Shallan), there is no need to reintegrate, as Veil and Radiant were nothing but characters Shallan was sometimes playing.  (Now, Shallan could choose to try and incorporate some of the characteristics of those roles into her behavior, but it wouldn't be reintegration.  It would be like (random example) me seeing my friend speaking up in meetings and thinking, I should speak up in meetings too, even if that goes against my nature.)  

I actually do think I can have it both ways, 100%. I can think based on my reading of the text that there is a real Shallan, who Adolin sees (not chooses) and Veil/Radiant are more fake than real, fake in the sense that their traits are not 100% from Shallan. Shallan invented at least some of their personalities, thoughts, backgrounds, and/or ideas, and so not all of Veil and Radiant are necessary for Shallan to be whole. Some of Veil and Radiant are things that Shallan pushed onto them because she was afraid of/inability to present them in her own core person, so she created alternates in order to present them anyway, and those things Shallan will - I believe - come to realization through her continuing healing process, that it's okay for her to be as she is.

That she, Shallan, can drink and have rude manners and be confident, and not have to push it off onto an alter. Things like Veil being darkeyed from a rough background and all the things that come from that, won't be, because Shallan invented those for Veil without having the experience to make that real, and I'll be honest - I rolled my eyes at Veil's "storming lighteyes" comment; an example of something that she puts on like a costume but has no basis to say that's her real experience. So much of Veil is like that - wholesale invented, and though I hope Shallan takes home some hard lessons about how she treats people under her in the caste system from Veil, Veil is in one sense, a costume of a darkeyes that Shallan puts on. She can be treated as a darkeyes when it's useful, when it's convenient for her to grab information, but neither Shallan nor Veil have to actually live as one 100% of the time. Shallan has certainly written real aspects of her personality into Veil and Radiant, and those parts are what I hope she'll take back in the next book or so, but there are elements of Veil and Radiant that she won't and hopefully can't reintegrate. 

Quote

Not related to the above (and you've probably stated this before), but what do you see as the theme of their relationship in OB?

Accepting the real self of another. Their arc goes:

1. Both cheery but lying (by omission) to each other, enjoying each other's company, but too scared of being rejected to be honest with each other. In Part One especially, I was sure Adolin and Shallan were doomed. They both canonically, have lines about fearing that the other will reject them if they know the truth, and not wanting to screw this up, that they both want to make this work. Adolin is afraid to tell anyone the truth about Sadeas, Shallan is afraid to tell anyone about Veil. Part One especially, I was interested to see how Shallan is not terrified about people finding out about the root of her brokenness, her parents' deaths, but the result of that - Veil, and thus, the evidence of her brokenness. Since this is what Shallan is mentally and emotionally occupied with in the beginning of OB, that she talks about Veil to Adolin later in the same book is deeply significant.

2. The weight of the fear continues to press on them. Both do some self-reflection independent of each other, neither forced into it by the other, ups and downs throughout the middle section of the story, stutter-stepping through their doubts. Adolin reflects on killing Sadeas and his own feelings about it. He has doubts about who he is, the kind of man he is, the kind of man he wants to be, whether he is the best one for Shallan combined with his absolute admiration for Kaladin and comparing himself to Kaladin both. Shallan has - wow, just her entire arc about not being sure who she is and what she wants. Veil (I'd say more than Radiant, but I'd be fine with saying both) acts as her version of her doubts, giving her an outlet to seriously consider a legitimate second option in Kaladin. Important that both Adolin and Shallan know that it's Kaladin. The doubts are legitimate and it's worth it to know that their doubts could be relationship-ending. Their doubts mirror each other's.

3. Despite the constancy throughout this book, neither of them act on their doubts. (!!!)

4. In the emotional crux of their arc, in my opinion, the beginning problem of dishonesty is met with honesty. Both of them admit something difficult to each other; the same problem they were occupied with since the beginning. (This is when I knew I'd read the two of them wrong at the beginning, as this is strongly a narrative arc being resolved.) Both of their arcs, having started together, split apart in the middle, and then dovetailed back together at the end. The exact same problems they started with are answered, explicitly.

5. Having reached a new step in their relationship, having learned they can share something difficult with the other, and learning that the other will still accept them with the same affection they did before, the relationship is cemented - at least for book 3.  The fear that, if the other sees the real them, will reject them or react badly, is proven false. Told about Veil, the extremely obvious evidence that Shallan is not well, Adolin accepts her just the same, doesn't think she's a monster, doesn't think she's broken; told about murdering Sadeas, Shallan accepts him and doesn't think he's a bad person, or not worth being with. Adolin's doubts about not being as cool as Kaladin to be in a relationship with Shallan, and Shallan's doubts about being too broken and awful to be in a relationship with Adolin; both threads... Constant threads through the whole book... Since the beginning... Are resolved explicitly at the end when they declare after everything they still want to be together. And then they choose to be together.

[Dreamstorm]

20 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Some of Veil and Radiant are things that Shallan pushed onto them because she was afraid of/inability to present them in her own core person, so she created alternates in order to present them anyway, and those things Shallan will - I believe - come to realization through her continuing healing process, that it's okay for her to be as she is.

So we’re actually on the same page here, but I just see you as selecting option 1... if parts of Shallan are pushed onto Veil and Radiant (even if Veil and Radiant need additional elements such that Shallan can consider them seperate from her - I get your point on the backstories), that means those parts of Shallan which are pushed onto V/R aren’t present in Shallan. And so the “Shallan” Adolin sees (I can use your language :)) isn’t actually the whole Shallan; it’s whole Shallan minus those aspects she’s pushed aside. Thus when Shallan justifies her choice as “Adolin knows me”, she’s really saying “Adolin knows me minus these things I’ve pushed to V/R”, hence why it rings false to me. 

26 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

The fear that, if the other sees the real them, will reject them or react badly, is proven false. Told about Veil, the extremely obvious evidence that Shallan is not well, Adolin accepts her just the same, doesn't think she's a monster, doesn't think she's broken; told about murdering Sadeas, Shallan accepts him and doesn't think he's a bad person, or not worth being with. Adolin's doubts about not being as cool as Kaladin to be in a relationship with Shallan, and Shallan's doubts about being too broken and awful to be in a relationship with Adolin; both threads... Constant threads through the whole book... Since the beginning... Are resolved explicitly at the end when they declare after everything they still want to be together. And then they choose to be together.

This whole thing was awesome to read, and I totally get where you’re coming from. (An aside, I actually thought Part 1 was really strong for them at the time! I was convinced during the sample chapters that they were really going to work it out as I saw their “issues” as things which were easy to address and getting better, ie Shallan not caring about Adolin seeing her hungover as a big step towards letting him see her not putting on an act.) I wish we’d had a stronger ending for them, in the sense of how they choose each other. I was pretty much on board all the way through Part 4 (despite not being sure why we had to go through this whole love triangle - I don’t think we got enough payoff for that if this is the end), but the whole thing felt underwhelming and disappointing because of the way it ended. As I stated (ranted about ) above, it would have been so much better to have Shallan independently “see” herself for herself and realize that self wanted to be with Adolin and not have it be Adolin “seeing” Shallan and then having her suddenly realize she is that person he sees. I obviously have other issues (Kaladin foreshadowing being dropped, the whole point of the triangle for Kaladin’s character development at all, the weirdness at the end surrounding the Shadolin relationship), but this was the big one for me. It just seemed like such a brick being dropped on what, as you said, was a romantic story which I do think got some good development. (About 50 pages back in the thread I actually did a bit like what you did with how Shadolin developed, but got sad at the fact I could envision a strong ending for them which didn’t exist in the book. That wouldn’t remove the other issues involving Kaladin and the arc, but it’s too bad we didn’t get a stronger conclusion. I mean, in the end I decided it wasn’t a conclusion which was why it felt so off, but that’s where my head was at the time - trying to come to terms with taking what we got at face value. And before you say Brandon is cool with me editing as I wish, believe me, if we come to SA4 with a happy marriage between them, I’m going to retcon the OB ending for sure!)

[Guest]

Just some quick thoughts, before I go sleep some more

Regarding the romance between Adolin and Shallan: I am with most of you. Part 1 looked promising, but then it all went into arrested development again.

I don't know. I guess, I want to read something deep and profound and not just "his strong arms" over and over again, which is also why I enjoyed the chasm scene so much. Whenever I see Adolin and Shallan together and I have Shallan's thoughts on the matter before me... Man, is she focused on sexual attraction. It's cool, even good, when she says, that she feels comfortable around Adolin, but she immediately destroys it by remarking how "strong" his arms are. Same goes for how she is glad to marry Adolin, but not because of some deep love, but because "she doesn't want to go to far in a relationship without oaths" (which I found to be a heavy allusion to sex) especially combined with her remark about his "stupid strong arms () pushing against her breasts". It is so shallow and superficial... I don't know maybe some of you like to read that stuff, but I don't. I think love is something a lot deeper than that.

Edited January 13, 2018 by SLNC

[Greywatch]

39 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

So we’re actually on the same page here, but I just see you as selecting option 1... if parts of Shallan are pushed onto Veil and Radiant (even if Veil and Radiant need additional elements such that Shallan can consider them seperate from her - I get your point on the backstories), that means those parts of Shallan which are pushed onto V/R aren’t present in Shallan. And so the “Shallan” Adolin sees (I can use your language :)) isn’t actually the whole Shallan; it’s whole Shallan minus those aspects she’s pushed aside. Thus when Shallan justifies her choice as “Adolin knows me”, she’s really saying “Adolin knows me minus these things I’ve pushed to V/R”, hence why it rings false to me. 

Being that she split off bits of herself, but her conscious self remains in the same place, I don't see it as false. People change all the time. Things that I used to define myself a year ago are not here anymore, but I'm still me. Shallan has traits, but she is not those traits. I think she'll be much healthier when she accepts them back into herself, but they do not make her Shallan. Shallan makes herself Shallan, whether or not she feels like it.

39 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

This whole thing was awesome to read, and I totally get where you’re coming from. (An aside, I actually thought Part 1 was really strong for them at the time! I was convinced during the sample chapters that they were really going to work it out as I saw their “issues” as things which were easy to address and getting better, ie Shallan not caring about Adolin seeing her hungover as a big step towards letting him see her not putting on an act.) I wish we’d had a stronger ending for them, in the sense of how they choose each other. I was pretty much on board all the way through Part 4 (despite not being sure why we had to go through this whole love triangle - I don’t think we got enough payoff for that if this is the end), but the whole thing felt underwhelming and disappointing because of the way it ended. As I stated (ranted about ) above, it would have been so much better to have Shallan independently “see” herself for herself and realize that self wanted to be with Adolin and not have it be Adolin “seeing” Shallan and then having her suddenly realize she is that person he sees. I obviously have other issues (Kaladin foreshadowing being dropped, the whole point of the triangle for Kaladin’s character development at all, the weirdness at the end surrounding the Shadolin relationship), but this was the big one for me. It just seemed like such a brick being dropped on what, as you said, was a romantic story which I do think got some good development. (About 50 pages back in the thread I actually did a bit like what you did with how Shadolin developed, but got sad at the fact I could envision a strong ending for them which didn’t exist in the book. That wouldn’t remove the other issues involving Kaladin and the arc, but it’s too bad we didn’t get a stronger conclusion. I mean, in the end I decided it wasn’t a conclusion which was why it felt so off, but that’s where my head was at the time - trying to come to terms with taking what we got at face value. And before you say Brandon is cool with me editing as I wish, believe me, if we come to SA4 with a happy marriage between them, I’m going to retcon the OB ending for sure!)

I'm glad you liked it. Yeah, again, Part One was how a book starts, so I thought external signs of it working as the beginning meant that it would unravel throughout the book. However, in full sight of all of OB, I believe I was wrong originally about their starting position - externally, the appearance of a happy relationship, but under the surface, teetering on the edge of the collapse. They become much stronger over the course of OB.

Personally, the reason I'm okay with it... Not all situations are going to resolve in the same way in order to be feminist, nor should they be. A woman being strong and standing on their own is not the only way a female character arc can be feminist. A strong woman who should never accept any dependence on a man or romance with a man, etc., is one very specific reading but it's not the only way to be feminist. Using an example of something different... In other fandoms, many women of colour have expressed that this specific idea is more popularly expressed from white women - since women of colour are expected to be strong, all the time, alone, in real life, without needing any help, female characters, (esp if they're not white), in fiction who get to be the ones to be rescued and/or have a really strong, sweet relationship is more feminist. Them standing alone and expected to take care of themselves is not empowering but dehumanizing; an expectation that since they are strong and independent, that that they are not equally deserving of empathy or love. Hence, receiving those things are arcs where women get to be empathized with and worthy of being supported and loved. That's one example, but there are some situations, in real life and fiction, where a woman standing alone, self-sufficient, is not the be-all, end-all feminist reading.

To add onto this, Shallan is mentally ill. With what, specifically, I don't think we're going to get a clear-cut real world analogue. But she is mentally ill. I strongly disagree that expecting a mentally ill to do it herself is really unfair, and especially to women readers who are in the same boat. To quote someone a few pages earlier in this thread, asking for help when you need it is really hard. Exponentially moreso when you're someone like Shallan. Shallan, who for a large part of this series, doesn't believe herself worthy of being loved or supported or accepted. That she sees herself as awful and weak, but learns to accept that she might not be, that someone she really likes/loves doesn't see her as pathetic or broken... To some readers, this was not a moment of weakness, but a moment of strength. Being able to ask for help, when you're in Shallan's shoes, it's really hard.

For me, the clear resolution of "character fears being rejected by loved one throughout story" ends with the loved one either accepting or rejecting them. Adolin accepted Shallan. I'd certainly be interested to see perhaps the next arc between them being Shallan worrying that she's becoming too dependent on Adolin and growing into a place where she's strong enough to know that it's okay to be rejected and still feel like a good person/worthy/etc., but if that happened in OB, it would've been too much, too fast for their relationship. 

Kaladin's arc and involvement in this is a whole separate thing, but also, the point is that it's a whole separate thing. (His meeting with Laral, a former love interest and he realizes that his feelings for her have died and he can easily move on, is a clear reflection of the later moment where he reflects on Shallan, a love interest, where he realizes that his feelings for her are not what he thought they were; bookend moments, one at the very very beginning of his scenes and one at the very very end. etc etc) 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Greywatch
Added stuff.

[Prelude]

9 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I can't believe this is still going, I was going to put this is the Shallan and Adolin won't last thread but here is something Brandon just posted that is applicable

Most pertinent is this part

 

Shallan doesn’t know who she is, what she wants to be, or her place in the world...but she knows her heart and mind in whom she ought to marry? Yeah confidence inspiring. I believe it’s been said on this thread-Shallan is very self-centered and a survivalist . This marriage isn’t about her love for Andolin it’s about him giving her a sense of reality. He for now is her anchor.  Will she still love him when she is healed? 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Prelude

[insert_anagram_here]

15 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I can't believe this is still going, I was going to put this is the Shallan and Adolin won't last thread but here is something Brandon just posted that is applicable

Most pertinent is this part

Quote

Shallan is coping with her pain in (best I've been able to do) a very realistic way, by boxing off and retreating and putting on a mask of humor and false "everything is okay" attitudes. But she has magical abilities that nobody in this world has, including the ability to put on masks that change the way everyone perceives her. She's playing roles as she puts them on, but I make it very clear (with deliberate slip-ups of self-reference in the prose) that it's always Shallan in there, and she's specifically playing this role because it lets her ignore the things she doesn't want to face.

She's losing control of what is real and what isn't--partially because she can't decide who she wants to be, who she should be, and what the world wants her to be. But it's not like other personalities are creeping in from a fractured psyche. She's hiding behind masks, and creates each role for herself to act in an attempt to solve a perceived shortcoming in herself. She literally sketched out Veil and thought, "Yup, I'm going to become that person now." Because Veil would have never been tricked into caring about her father; she would have been too wise for that.

 

I wish I could give you multiple upvotes for that. I wasn't aware that BS has actually read the feedback on portraying mental health disorders until now. (BTW, that reddit post was changed recently so maybe that's another reason for missing it in the first place)

This WOB reinforces an older thought that Radiant is the one that 'does what Shallan doesn't want, but it's what is socially acceptable' aka 'what the world wants her to be' and Veil is the one that 'does what Shallan wants, but it's not socially acceptable' aka 'who she wants to be'. So this reinforces that what we interpret as Shallan, at the end of OB, is indeed personaShallan aka 'who she should be'. Also, this distinction she has made of herself is why she pushes 'unaccepted parts of her thoughts onto Veil'. Also, we can now argue that when Adolin squeezes her hand he picks the one that Shallan 'should be' and not 'who she wants to be' (the one that stands up, whom Wit was trying to re-enforce with his advice and 'hat').

7 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Personally, the reason I'm okay with it... Not all situations are going to resolve in the same way in order to be feminist, nor should they be. A woman being strong and standing on their own is not the only way a female character arc can be feminist. A strong woman who should never accept any dependence on a man or romance with a man, etc., is one very specific reading but it's not the only way to be feminist. Using an example of something different... In other fandoms, many women of colour have expressed that this specific idea is more popularly expressed from white women - since women of colour are expected to be strong, all the time, alone, in real life, without needing any help, female characters, (esp if they're not white), in fiction who get to be the ones to be rescued and/or have a really strong, sweet relationship is more feminist. Them standing alone and expected to take care of themselves is not empowering but dehumanizing; an expectation that since they are strong and independent, that that they are not equally deserving of empathy or love. Hence, receiving those things are arcs where women get to be empathized with and worthy of being supported and loved. That's one example, but there are some situations, in real life and fiction, where a woman standing alone, self-sufficient, is not the be-all, end-all feminist reading.

I'm not sure where you are trying to go here with this, so let me remind you that feminism isn't about what 'appears as a strong woman' necessarily but giving that freedom of independent choice to all women, without regards to social 'norms' and standards. Having Adolin chose who Shallan 'IS' is effectively stripping the choice from Shallan herself. To make the matters worse, because she is mentally incapable of deciding for herself at this point, she should've first resolved her identification problems and then, and only then, decide to get married.

Edited January 13, 2018 by insert_anagram_here
better wording

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Having Adolin chose who Shallan 'IS' is effectively stripping the choice from Shallan herself. To make the matters worse, because she is mentally incapable of deciding for herself at this point, she should've first resolved her identification problems first and then, and only then, decide to get married.

Which is also why this "Without you, I fade" line genuinely annoys me. She practically admits, that she is dependent on Adolin to even keep herself around as Shallan. It just screams dependence to me and I hate it. She herself isn't even sure if she wants this, which is also why she seeks Veil's and Radiant's approval before the wedding, she is afraid about making a choice. So she lets Adolin do it for her.

[Vissy]

If Shallan and Adolin's romance is themed around the concept of accepting your SO as they are, then why is it that Adolin still has no idea about what the real Shallan is like? If this is the theme, then wouldn't it stand to reason that there's still half the marathon to run in this romance arc for them both? 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Vissy

[Humming]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Which is also why this "Without you, I fade" line genuinely annoys me. She practically admits, that she is dependent on Adolin to even keep herself around as Shallan. It just screams dependence to me and I hate it. She herself isn't even sure if she wants this, which is also why she seeks Veil's and Radiant's approval before the wedding, she is afraid about making a choice. So she lets Adolin do it for her.

Yeah, she's treating Adolin as an anchor to keep Shallan as her dominant personality. It's not character development, it's a regression.

[analyticaposteriori]

There certainly isn't much space in Shallan's thoughts for Adolin himself (or his well-being outside of what is useful to Shallan). Her two main motivations for jumping through with the marriage are sex (she's positively horny by the end of OB... it's probably not going to last) and anchoring Shallan so she can stay away from facing her old truths. She told Adolin about her fracturing but that's not something she ever tried to hide from herself - in context of her mental health the truths she tells others are meaningless in comparison to what she has to accept herself.

[Greywatch]

Since my entire response is "we evidently interpret it all incredibly differently, and what you state as factual rebuttals to my reading is only your reading", I think I'll leave it here. The distance between our starting positions is apparently an ocean. 

[DeployParachute]

4 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Since my entire response is "we evidently interpret it all incredibly differently, and what you state as factual rebuttals to my reading is only your reading", I think I'll leave it here. The distance between our starting positions between our arguments is apparently an ocean. 

Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. At this point, trying to convince someone who takes such a drastically opposite reading of the text seems like an exercise in futility until the author gives us more to go on. I think many of us posting here feel that we're contributing to find textual support for our interpretations, and we like to post it here to build our case. But none of that is really going to matter. You've accepted the reading that you want, and no new evidence to the contrary will matter. But I thank you for sharing your views none the less.

I like to think that I am open to proceeding into book four with the possibility that all Adolin and Shallan need do is work through her remaining identity issues and be happy with each other as a married couple. But I'm also open to the alternative. 

I think it would be interesting to rehash some of this after book 4, and see who's reading of the text of OB turned it to be more accurate. Not hammer home who was right or wrong, but to discuss what about Brandon's writing of the text lead one group to the wrong conclusions, and another to the right conclusions. Why was this phrase taken as foreshadowing? Why did this scene play opposite to how the author intended. I find those conversations pretty fascinating. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

I like to think that I am open to proceeding into book four with the possibility that all Adolin and Shallan need do is work through her remaining identity issues and be happy with each other as a married couple. But I'm also open to the alternative. 

I like to think that too, but for that I need it to be a lot more... deep, than just what they had at the end of OB, if it turns out to be more deep... fine. If not... I don't know, Shallan is one of our main characters and if reading her entails a lot more of sappy "romantic" stuff between her and Adolin... It could destroy reading her chapters for me. I guess, I'm a bit afraid of that, because I really enjoyed reading her parts up until now.

On the other hand, I would feel extremely misguided and deceived... why even bring Kaladin into this? I feel like he had literally no impact upon this whole storyline, if this keeps to be the endgame. I don't know. I guess, I'm confused. Not a state that I particularly like.

Edited January 13, 2018 by SLNC

[Peanut]

I just finished reading Oathbringer and I had some strong feelings about the resolution of the love triangle and my girlfriend suggested that I go on this forum and read the discussion going on here. Before I start reading this thread I just want to share my quick thoughts about the romance plot. I also want to say that my english isn't my first language so I can't articulate words and form sentences (in a way that makes sense) as easily as most of you so sorry in advanced for my bad grammar!

Basically my problem is that I'm confused as to why this love triangle exists in the first place. What purpose does it serve? What does Kaladins feelings for Shallan add to his character development? Why add all the foreshadowing between Shallan and Kaladin only to have Shallan marry Adolin so quickly at the end? I feel like if you take Kaladin away then the issues with Shallan would still be the same. Adding him to the mix only frustrates me as a Kaladin fan. If someone here could give me some insight that would be great. I wasn't expecting a Kaladin and Shallan pairing in the end but I was expecting (or maybe hoping) for Shallan and Adolin to split so Shallan could figure herself out before committing herself to a relationship with anyone. I think Shallan even making a decision at all is what bothers me.

I do prefer Kaladin and Shallan since they are my two favourite characters, and because this pairing is different from the typical male royalty the main female characters seem to always get paired up with in Brandons books. I certainly do not mind Shallan and Adolin though, I just wish their relationship was written better in a away that convinces me that they are good for each other but this book doesn't do that in my opinion. I don't think they're developed enough as a couple for them to get married. I don't want to read about Adolins perfect hair or his strong but gentle arms give me something more! Maybe I'm asking for too much, I don't know. I guess this is one of the reasons why I'm bothered by their early marriage. I don't think there's enough emotional depth and I think too much of their relationship is purely based on physical attraction. To be honest I hope this isn't the end of the romance plot, something about it just doesn't seem right to me. Maybe I'll feel better about this book once books 4 and 5 are out and we know why things happen the way they happen, but for now I don't feel satisfied with the way things are going.

This might be a little off topic but why do these arranged marriages that happen in Brandons books always work out? Laral was my second choice for Kaladin, and I was hoping for them to maybe rekindle old flames but she seems to be ok with her marriage with someone as scummy as Roshone.

I would go deeper and share more of my thoughts but I'm not confident enough in my writing ability. Sorry for the rant. This probably doesn't add anything new to the conversation here so sorry about that, I just wanted to share my thoughts as a fellow fan of this series. I still really loved this book even though this one sub plot wasn't really satisfying to read. Hopefully everything I've written makes sense and sorry if it didn't.

Alright, now it's time for me to dive into this thread!

Edited January 13, 2018 by Peanut

[GarrethGrey]

I'v been following this thread since the beginning, but haven't really felt a need to post as everyone has pretty much covered my thoughts. But at this point I want to say that @Peanut perfectly encapsulates what I've been thinking to myself, this whole romance and "love triangle" just make zero sense. Why bring in Kaladin? Why have these elements of foreshadowing and symblism (some are certainly open to interpretation, but many are pretty obvious) if there's literally no payoff? I was fine with Adolin and Shallan going into OB but having read it, I just feel like my emotions have been toyed with for no reason. 

Also, @SLNC pretty much sums up how I feel about the whole Shadolin thing, If I have to sit through chapters of Shallan being all lovey dovey and swooning over Adolins arms I'm going to go nuts, please no. And this thought terrifies me because I loved Shallan up until OB. 

I guess I'm just a little lost right now too.

Sorry for the long winded post everyone, I've really enjoyed this thread and all of your insight. Felt it was a good time to finally jump in with my own thoughts

[Vissy]

@Peanut @GarrethGrey Well if you're feeling lost, this thread is certainly the right place to have found!

If you'd like to read a really well-written summary of what we've been talking about so far, everything from the Shalladin foreshadowing to characterization to other things... this link is your friend!

[Seize]

For so long I was afraid of this massive thread ; then someone referenced it elsewhere and it caught enough of my attention as to make me consume the last 10 pages. And... wow. There was so much there I had not seen, things that I find so fascinating. Especially all the symbolism surrounding The Girl Who Stood Up, but also the analysis (I think it was @Dreamstorm ?) of Adolin's thoughts toward Shallan and Kaladin. It got me so excited! I admire you guys for your dedication to dissect these texts and characters!

It also gave me food for thought, as much about the books themselves as about my own opinion/preference on the matter. During WoR I really enjoyed Shallan and Adolin's romantic storyline. Then the chasm sequence happened and... storms, from that point, Shalladin became my guilty pleasure. I can't tell how much of my inclination comes from an objective "they fit together, no other character would be as good for them as the other one, they are clearly endgame" and a completely subjective basic fangirly "omg the two mains together i ship iiiit". But at the same time, I still appreciate Shadolin scenes and a part of me understands how the marriage might be a sustainable development for both characters.

I think it was a few pages back that you discussed the importance of Shallan making the choice of getting married. I agree with both points of view: yes, it can be seen as a hurried band-aid solution for Shallan to keep her human anchor in order to not confront her deep personal problems (+ the "going further in their relationship" part), but it is still a decision, a step forward in the way that she thinks she knows what she wants, and she takes it. (But then, why not show the wedding ? Even through a secondary character's POV, in order for the scene not to feel redundant with Dalinar and Navani's own ceremony...)

As for the love triangle, it could be interpreted as a means to show Shallan's bewilderment. So many things can happen in book 4, and since Shallan's issues won't magically disappear no matter what happens, I would like to think that her marriage is not doomed and that it can provide new and interesting situations for her to discover some of the answers she lacks. Furthermore, I am not sure Shallan could handle things better on her own, since that's what she has already been doing since the beginning of the series. Maybe marriage will bring her and Adolin closer and help her deal with her baggage? Sure, their relationship doesn't have the healthiest foundations but this is not to say that it will stay this way. Just as Shallan and Kaladin's relationship would not nearly be the same without the chasm scenes, a lot can happen in the following book(s) plot-wise that can drastically alter Shallan and Adolin's dynamic, for better or worst.

There is a lot of holes in this approach; hell, even as I am not really convinced by it, so much is left in the dark. Even if Shallan liking Kaladin could be justified as a way to illustrate her fragmentation, why make Kaladin like Shallan? And why not show the wedding?

 

PS: I see I am not the only one who chose today to manifest myself for the first time! ( @Peanut English is not my first language either so it may not be worth much coming from me, but hadn't you said anything, I don't think I would have picked up on it!)

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Seize said:

but it is still a decision, a step forward in the way that she thinks she knows what she wants, and she takes it.

I understand that, but why show the relationship post-cementation as being so focused on purely sexual things... I dunno, I'm feeling a bit duped. Everyone is trying to tell me, that they have some genuine romance going, but all I'm seeing is horny teenagers...

14 minutes ago, Seize said:

Even if Shallan liking Kaladin could be justified as a way to illustrate her fragmentation, why make Kaladin like Shallan?

This annoys me so much. I could get Shallan having wandering eyes for Kaladin to show her different desires and how they reflect in her masks, but... why make Kaladin like her back? It feels so unnecessary to show what apparently is supposed to be shown...

Edited January 14, 2018 by SLNC

[analyticaposteriori]

I could get over 'liking' - it would be only natural for two people who were thrown into their respective situations and a mere 'liking' does not really lead anywhere most of the time. I've certainly had a fare share of 'liking' relationships that stopped exactly there, lol.

The problem is that 'liking' is a very weak word for how Kaladin clearly feels towards Shallan (the hamfisted denial at the end of OB notwithstanding).

[wotbibliophile]

Hi @Peanut, @GarrethGrey, @Seize . Really great English. I understood you easily. I admire all who know more than one language. Post as much as you like; long or short it does not matter.

 

21 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Accepting the real self of another.

Very interesting to read. Thank you. For me this falls flat because Shallan is certainly hiding herself from Adolin. Adolin tells Shallan about killing Sadeas. This is the worst thing he has ever done. This was his biggest secret.  He murdered someone, covered it up, lied to everyone and then he tells Shallan. She accepts him.

Shallan does not tell him about her secrets. I see Shallan and Adolin's relationship as very imbalanced.

I was rereading the chasm scene. Just a small part and I was shocked that Kaladin reflects about Shallan seeing her mother die in front of her. I had it in my head that Shallan told Kaladin all about her childhood but nothing about her mother. I thought she was blocking it out so she hadn't told him. But actually she told him everything she remembered. I don't think he knows she killed her mother because that is something she had forgotten, but she told him everything else. In the end he admired her. He respected her. He thought of her as a survivor. This warms my heart. This is not a part of Shallan and Adolin's relationship. Shallan is still hiding herself from Adolin. Adolin does not know the real her. It makes me very disappointed that they are married now.

Edited January 14, 2018 by wotbibliophile