Guest Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: Well, the Kaladin convo is set up to be one Shallan can refer back to as Kaladin encouraging her to not be herself. It's a pretty classic Misunderstanding (also tm), since she doesn't actually tell him what's going on so his response is without understanding the actual context. More important to me is that she actually wants to tell Kaladin first and that Adolin's response (even with the silver platter presentation) is factually false - he doesn't know what's inside Shallan. Oh, yeah. I agree. I was meaning, that it was unfair by Shallan. She kinda set him up, but we already know, that she (without Veil) is biased toward Adolin. Also, a very Shallan-like thing to do. Yup, Adolin has no idea what really is going on internally with Shallan. I don't blame him really though, because it is not easy to understand and he doesn't have our insight. Edited January 9, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailvara Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Questioner I notice Adolin has a talent for picking out when people are lying. At least he caught Sadeas, he caught Amaram, he knew Kaladin was having something, but he missed Danlan. Brandon Sanderson How reliable is Adolin with his read on people? Better with guys. Well, Adolin is not only better at reading men, he's all in all much better at relationships with men, those with women he subconsciously sabotages and apparently only keeps getting into them because he has to. Shallan is easier for him to deal with, especially since he can teach her sword fighting and other guy stuff. Still, she is usually the one initiating the more romantic side of their relationship, while he's all neutral if not openly crushing on Kaladin. If he isn't at least bisexual, I don't know what this is. In the end, it's not Kaladin who has fueled the Kadolin ship all on his own. I wonder if it's another subconscious effect or something else. Quote Q: "Every time Shallan thinks abt Jasnah it's so gay which is #relatable, @BrandSanderson did u realize how bi u wrote her?? either way thank u" A: "This wasn't directly on my mind while writing, but looking back, I think it was in my subconscious. I'm flattered to hear it." 1 Edited January 9, 2018 by Ailvara 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: "He'd happily spend his entire life dueling, lounging, and courting the occasional pretty girl." WoK, Ch. 12, Unity I just wanted to highlight what I think would be the opposite of these. Instead of dueling, he's warring. Instead of lounging, he's leading. Instead of courting the occasional pretty girl he's getting married. Not sure how happy Adolin is about any of this, but at least there's evidence to foreshadow his eventual abdication. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Rainier said: I just wanted to highlight what I think would be the opposite of these. Instead of dueling, he's warring. Instead of lounging, he's leading. Instead of courting the occasional pretty girl he's getting married. Not sure how happy Adolin is about any of this, but at least there's evidence to foreshadow his eventual abdication. Woah. So this can be seen in two ways. Adolin growing as a character, or pretending to be someone else. I wish this had been brought up better in his narrative. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rainier said: I just wanted to highlight what I think would be the opposite of these. Instead of dueling, he's warring. Instead of lounging, he's leading. Instead of courting the occasional pretty girl he's getting married. Not sure how happy Adolin is about any of this, but at least there's evidence to foreshadow his eventual abdication. Now that you mention it: It is not like anyone really cares about Adolin's happiness in that. No one really asks him. Sadly, his PoVs also don't give much insight. Shallan certainly is happy, but Adolin? Such an enigma. Sure, he likes all the kissing and such (what man doesn't?), but what about his feelings? Edited January 9, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 19 hours ago, SLNC said: Oh, of course, my take on that was heavily opinionated by, well, myself I also want to add, that I certainly would appreciate, that my hypothetical spouse finally told me, but I would still be hurt, but it would not be unfixable. It just would require dedication on both sides. I just think, that most people see trust as one of the biggest pillars of a relationship and that includes honesty. Especially, when you yourself, like Adolin is by confessing killing Sadeas to Shallan, are, but your partner isn't. Still, I find it extremely hard to gauge a possible reaction by Adolin. On one hand, he seems to be always accepting and understanding to many things, on the other hand, he sometimes completely loses it and gets angry (like at Dalinar or killing Sadeas). He's very erratic, when it comes to emotional responses. The purpose of my post was to show how different people may react in a various manner to the same event: what some of us feel is a definite breach of trust, others believe it ought to be acceptable given the circumstances. Where will Adolin stand? I tend to believe he wouldn't react too harshly and he would be very emphatic, but as I said, it would probably be more interesting, narrative wise if he were to react strongly. Admittedly, if his character is ever to react to something, I'd rather it was to Dalinar having burned Evi than Shallan not telling him about her parents. I wouldn't however say Adolin is erratic in his behavior: I found him rather consistent. Yes, he got angry at Dalinar and Sadeas, but this happened because he felt both where threatening his people and his family. Dalinar going crazy was something dear to Adolin and he feared for his princedom, his soldier, his people and his father himself if Dalinar refused to admit it. Sadeas launching insults to Dalinar and Renarin was also enough to hit his buttons. None of these emotional responses are erratic and they all have one common factor: they happened when someone/something threatened the ones he loves. Adolin is very resilient to harm being done to himself, he tends to shove his personal feelings inside: he rarely acts emotionally on event affecting him. Where does Shallan's revelations fall? I would think it would fall within the category of "something which emotionally harms Adolin, but not the people he loves", hence he wouldn't react much. 19 hours ago, SLNC said: I don't know Like @PhineasGage and @Dreamstorm already noted, his internal monologue just doesn't fit for that. He might have developed a lower self-esteem, since the Radiants began to reemerge, but I never saw him as that in WoK. Not even in those relationships. The continued failure might have lowered his self-esteem in the longer run, but I always saw his main reason for failed courtships as good old disinterest. He continued to court suitable women, because he was expected to marry sooner or later, but I more and more am confident, that he just wasn't really interested in long-term relationships. And still isn't. I don't want to say, that he is asexual, nor do I want to say, that he is completely focused on the sexual part of relationships, but he never felt fully committed (for instance, that he forgets dates, that he had, while scheduling another at the same time). This isn't how I am reading it: the low self-confidence is not the product of his failed courtships, but the cause. His relationships do not fail because he isn't interested nor because he is always looking for the next best thing, they fail because he unconsciously makes them fall apart out of fearing not being good enough. What is the easiest way to safe-keep his self-confidence? It is to never put himself out there, it is to remain superficial with people: if you never work towards developing deeper relationships, then you will never have to face others judging you. Every single point you have brought forward, him forgetting dates and the such, is exactly him: it is him evading, it is him disengaging himself from the relationship before it has time to become meaningless. I definitely believe Dalinar, the most significant person in his life, being so hard on him is one of the reasons, if not the reason, which explains it all. Think of it, you have a little boy who literally worships his father, but as he moves into his formatting teenage years, this idol constantly reproaches him every moves he makes. Rejects him even. Wouldn't you think this boy would grow up into a young man not feeling too confident about his ability to relate to others? It is a constant theme with Adolin, how he feels unworthy of basically everyone. As for Adolin loving Shallan, I do think he does because he actually tries harder with her, he speaks up his desire to make it work (something he never did before) and he is closer to her. He's also very genuine with her which also isn't something we have seen within his other relationships. Take Danlan for instance, he never was... himself with her. This being said, for those not seeing enough evidence Adolin loves Shallan, I do know I will not convince you. I do agree having more viewpoints for Adolin would have done wonder in this regards and I too am frustrated at this one sided love story Brandon forced down on us. I however do believe we are supposed to read in between the lines that Adolin does love Shallan. 15 hours ago, PhineasGage said: I don't know.... I mean he was dating one woman and hit on her sister at the same time at one point. It is why they broke up. I don't think "womanizer" works properly as an epithet for him, but his commitment issues are a thing. To be honest, we weren't given ample enough details as to how this specific courtship went down to truly use it as an "example". For all we know, the sister pursued Adolin while he was dating the other and, being Adolin, he reacted to those advances. Or maybe the sisters teamed up together to make him look bad as "laughing of Adolin" seemed to have been a sport they all played. We just do not know. I personally always thought it was important to note, of all courtships Brandon chose to show us within the books, none were actually initiated by Adolin. All were initiated by other women, often not caring if he was seeing someone or not at the moment. My impressions are thus, if Adolin was such a player and a womanizer, then the author would have written it in more obvious terms. We would have seen Adolin actively court other women, seek them and be naturally attracted to several of them. I once dated a player and this was pretty much how he behaved: if you caught his attention, he'd be nice to you, he'd seduce you, he'd made you feel as if you were "special" up until he met another one. My player had a narcissist personality which I do believe explained the behavior: this isn't the case with Adolin. He absolutely does not exhibit the same behavioral patterns. Players and womanizer, as a rule of thumb, think very highly of themselves which isn't the case here. Given we have several of Adolin's viewpoints where he claims he wants to make it work and is constantly appalled it seemed to fall apart, despite his "best efforts", I definitely think we can safely say he is not in it for "the thrill of the chase" or "the novelty". He wants the relationships to work. Mind, my player too wanted his relationships to work, but he lived for the "thrill", so each time a woman give him "the thrill", he'd seek her. Adolin, once again, doesn't behave the same. None of his behaviors indicate he is "a thrill" seeker, but all indicate the same thing: he always gives up. Kadash lectures him on that in WoK: perhaps he should be more persistent and there lays the key. As soon as there problems or signs it may not be working, Adolin leaves. Backs away. Runs away. Sure this may have been the unconscious wanted result, but he systematically does it. And he does it with Shallan too. My thoughts are thus, the issue is not commitment either... The issue is Adolin himself: he wants to commit, he has no issue commitment to Shallan, but he doesn't think he is good enough for anyone. One of the difference is, when he tries to run away from Shallan, she doesn't let him go: she commits to him, hence the pattern was broken. Hence it all falls back towards him having little self-confidence. 15 hours ago, PhineasGage said: Given that there is a WoB on Adolin self-sabotaging his relationships, I do agree that we have to assume he has done this multiple times. The thing is, I am less sure why he does it so consistently. I mean, I get that he lacks confidence in this area, but that doesn't mean he lacks confidence in every area of his life. It is not clear to me why he lacks confidence in this area - he seems happy to approach women of various descriptions and start things off most of the time. Even before the WoB, it was easy to speculate Adolin was unconsciously sabotaging his relationships: just his viewpoints where he never seems to know what went wrong or what he did wrong was enough to make the guess. The way he phrases his thoughts also lent to believe there were.... numerous break-ups. For the rest, an individual can have self-confidence on some areas where his set of skills is well assessed and developed, but totally lacking it within other areas. Take myself for instance, when I was younger I had strong self-confidence within my ability to pursue my studies: I always had good grades, I will always have good grades. Give me the test and be done with it. I however had zero self-confidence when it came down to boys or mere friendship: I was unable to make a move nor to develop friendships as I was deeply afraid of rejection and/or of being told I wasn't interesting/good enough for other people. I read the exact same behavior within Adolin's character. He is very confident in his abilities to fight, but he has none of it when it comes to his personal worth. I had a few options to explain it, back before we read OB. Now I definitely believes it comes from having been discredited, diminished and constantly criticized by Dalinar during his entire teenage years. He might have grown into a good duelist, skilled even: he might have good confidence in his skills (too much perhaps?), but none of what he did ever were good enough for Dalinar. He has the exact same behavior with Shallan: he does not think he is good enough for her. When he thinks she has it for Kaladin, he does not try to fight back as a real player would. A womanizer would hate at seeing a woman he has his eyes on being taken by another, a womanizer would try harder to seduce her. Not Adolin. Adolin, he just walks away because he does not think he can compete: he is not good enough for this. He just doesn't believe he has enough worth for it which is also why he reacts so surprised when Shallan tells him all the things she loves about him. Also, we never once read him start off things with any women. Ever. Some readers assumed he must be because the imagery of the "womanizer" is very strong, but he never does. I am not saying he never did, but not once had Brandon choose to show us him doing it. Brandon has however written out women calling on Adolin and seeking him: he also had Dalinar agree to the casual in order to stop women from trying to emotionally manipulate his son. I think it is pretty clear Adolin is acting confident, most of the time, but really isn't. The fact he is so rich and handsome has made it so women are swarming to him, so he never really had to court anyone, but had he been ugly and poor, things might have gone down differently. Hence, he might be eager when a new relationship forms, but he is not actively seeking them nor is he the one starting things. It does not mean he never liked the attention, he probably did, but he never was able to make it work. Always, he ran away. Like with Mashala: she started to get too close, so he more or less started ignoring her. 17 hours ago, PhineasGage said: My personal take is that Adolin is more concerned with the appearance of his love-life than the depth of it. He is certainly concerned with appearances in other settings, not only his own. I suspect this is the real damage that Dalinar's treatment of him caused - he needed to be loved/accepted etc and so tried to portray the perfect son (nb reflects Shallan's perfect daughter issues) and he tries to be the perfect boyfriend/fiancee/husband as well. Unfortunately for his wife, he is not nearly as committed to her as he is to Dalinar (at least not yet) and so he gets bored eventually of pretending to be something he isn't. I personally don't blame him. I do not think so. If Adolin were concerned about "appearances", he'd work harder not to ruin his relationships because they don't make him look good, not at all. Wit constantly laugh of him: he is the talk of the warcamps. The real damage Dalinar did to Adolin, I believe, is destroying his self-confidence. Being a "work harder" kind of individual, being someone whom doesn't crumble under hardships and Dalinar being his hero, Adolin just tried harder to be what Dalinar wanted him to be. It never was an image nor for the shake of appearances: Adolin tries to BE this person. This isn't without forgetting the damage Evi done, by having Adolin literally worship his father, by making him believe his father was the "most wonderful human being in the whole world". He has no sense of himself. He forgets himself. He ignores himself. He does not hate himself like Shallan nor think his is useless like Renarin, but he tends to put himself dead last. He tends to think everyone deserves better than him which is why he isn't reacting to seeing his every family members being Radiants. It doesn't affect him because deep down, Adolin also thought he was the unworthy one, even if highly skilled, he still failed to make the mark. 9 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: ... I don't readily agree with everything within your listing of "resolved flaws" and "current flaws" within Adolin's character. Here are my thoughts: Hot-headed/rash decisions: Adolin is emotionally impulsive when other people are involved, when times come to remove threats towards his family, when other are suffering unjustly and he is a witness. What is referred to as his "hot-headiness" is usually Adolin snapping at Sadeas, staying in prison for Kaladin, agreeing the the 4 on 1 duel (which had for purpose to get rid of Sadeas) and so on. Has it disappeared because OB didn't really show this side of Adolin? Of course not! Adolin is still the same emotionally impulsive young man, but within OB, his family was not in danger. Also, he is always calm and collected within battles because this is a known environment, so he knows what to do. I personally think this is still very much part of Adolin's character and I do think it tends to manifest itself whenever Adolin sees harm done at others. He reacts. Arrogance: My thoughts are Adolin is arrogant in order to hide his lack of self-confidence: best disguise ever. No one thinks the guy who brags so much doubts himself as well. He more or less explains it in chapter 14, WoR. Superiority complex: This is not a flaw. Dalinar and Renarin thought Adolin mistrusted Kaladin because he ordered him around onto the battlefield. Some readers insist it must be the case because it feels consistent with how they have perceived Adolin, but Adolin himself tells us this is not the case. Adolin does say why he doesn't trust Kaladin, why he reacts badly to him and it has nothing to do with being ordered and everything to do with being suspicious of Kaladin's talents combined with the feeling he is lying (which he was). This isn't without forgetting Adolin was beyond exhausted during this scene: his face was sleek with sweat, Dalinar said he was over-extending himself and Kaladin later describes Adolin's physical state as being "practically unconscious". No way was Adolin anywhere capable of having any complex at all during this scene: he was just dead tired and he feared for his father. His later viewpoints indicate no remorse nor ill-feelings towards the event: people just assume this must be the reason. Hence, I do not consider this one to be a flaw. I never read Adolin as someone thinking he is superior even if he will not readily criticize his own society and the order it imposes. Relationships: As I said above, I don't think his issues with relationships are the flaw. I think the flaw is his lack of self-confidence which causes his relationships issues: not the reverse. Emotional insensitivity: Considering Adolin is about the most emotional sensitive character we currently have, I have a hard time listing this as a flaw because he was insensitive to Shallan once. He was emotionally perturbed at the time. As for the WoB, Adolin has shown an unseen ability to read other people, less so with women, but this compared to above normal abilities with men. There is no reason to believe he is worst at it than any other character. Abduction of duty: Yes and no. I never read this as negative, but as Adolin making the realistic choice of not becoming the king. I do think he is right in saying others wouldn't have listened to him readily: most see him as a child, like Ialai. He wasn't the best choice the Kholin household had at the time. I also find there is great maturity in refusing a duty when you feel you aren't up to the task. I certainly do not think Adolin had to accept the throne just because he was "next in line": the idea it ought to go to the best qualified person is the first step towards democracy and I can't be against that. Lack of remorse: I wouldn't label this one this way. I would say the flaw isn't the lack of remorse, it is his blind trust in Dalinar. No doubt thinking Sadeas torched the Rift influenced how he viewed the man: he never liked him. The real flaw is not seeing the truth with sits right in front of him when it comes to people he loves. As with "emotional insensitivity", the stronger his emotions, the worst he gets at reading people. Adolin can't feel remorse because Sadeas was trying to harm Dalinar. Had he taken the right decision? Probably not, but he can't see it because all he sees is Dalinar's safety. That's the flaw: being too centered on Dalinar. Thinking Dalinar is worth more than him, thinking Dalinar's life is more important than his. My personal take on Adolin's flaws is the following: Hero worship complex: I consider a lot of Adolin's behavior, including his hot-headiness, his lack of self-confidence are by-product of a medium to severe hero worship complex towards his father. Even if he seen contradicting Dalinar, on occasions, he still views him as the "most amazing man in the world" and he would still "readily die for him". This is definitely not solved. Lack of self-confidence: This one I think is the result of his hero-worship complex combined to Dalinar's descend within the darkness. He was beaten down during his most important years and told by the man he idolizes he just falls short of the mark. He coped through it by working harder, always working harder and always thinking he deserved the rebuff. I believe this flaw has caused his issues with relationships and it has made him step down in favor of Kaladin: he wouldn't even try to fight for Shallan. He considers he has lost even before thinking of making it a fight. Workaholic: He compensates hardships by drowning himself into work. Whenever he meets resistance, he spontaneously focuses onto the next task at hand, no matter what it may be. He doesn't chafe at it because it isn't "important" enough, but we have yet to see how he would deal with complete inactivity, with the inability to work. I personally find Adolin's motto is a very unhealthy habit disguised as a healthy one because it, at least, isn't a known mental illness. Perfectionist: This is tied with the lack of self-confidence: he feels he needs to be perfect to be worthy, so he over-works himself to meet impossible ideals. When he feels he isn't meeting them, he takes it on himself. Selflessness: He always puts himself last: he will die for others even when it makes better sense he does not. Could or could not be a flaw, just something about his character which has always made me sad. Emotional: He is an outward emotive individuals who doesn't deal well threats. He can have outburst if someone he loves is threatened too hard, but is unlikely to react of he is personally threatened. He is emotionally easily manipulated. This is getting quite long, but so were my thoughts. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywatch Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 @maxal The only thing I disagree with in that is that Adolin's faith in his father is blind; arguments can be made for misguided or holdouts from his childhood, but since he is willing to disagree and engage on those disagreements with Dalinar, I don't think I can agree it's blind, mainly because that implies without question or doubt. Adolin does have questions and doubts sometimes, but he does trust Dalinar. Other than that, that's all very close to my reading of his character. A pleasure to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, Greywatch said: @maxal The only thing I disagree with in that is that Adolin's faith in his father is blind; arguments can be made for misguided or holdouts from his childhood, but since he is willing to disagree and engage on those disagreements with Dalinar, I don't think I can agree it's blind, mainly because that implies without question or doubt. Adolin does have questions and doubts sometimes, but he does trust Dalinar. Other than that, that's all very close to my reading of his character. A pleasure to read it. Well yes, you are right. Blind is a strong word. Perhaps not the right one. He does contradict Dalinar, on occasions, but always on issues outside of himself: thinking Dalinar has gone crazy, not wanting Dalinar to meet Eshonai. The only time Adolin stood up to Dalinar for his own self was when he refused to become king. This, was a first. We have however seen with OB Adolin does think Dalinar is the greater man, the superior man he is struggling to reach the shadow of. We have also seen what Dalinar thinks remains highly important and he does feel the strain of needing to be his son. Adolin doesn't re-evaluate his perception of his father. Ever. It is why I used the word "blind". Anyway, if Brandon ever feels like making Adolin interesting again, this is definitely where I would hit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotbibliophile Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 I do not have strong feelings about Adolin. Other readers read a lot more into him than I do. I agree that he does not have strong feelings for Shallan. He cares about her but he is not in love with her. If he thinks he is in love with her than he is in love with the prettied up face she lets him see and not the real Shallan. I am frustrated at how unequal their relationship is. Adolin seems to be more thoughtful and honest and Shallan does not seem to trust Adolin or respect him or be honest with him ever. 7 hours ago, maxal said: Emotional insensitivity: Considering Adolin is about the most emotional sensitive character we currently have, I have a hard time listing this as a flaw because he was insensitive to Shallan once. He was emotionally perturbed at the time. As for the WoB, Adolin has shown an unseen ability to read other people, less so with women, but this compared to above normal abilities with men. There is no reason to believe he is worst at it than any other character. I disagree here. I believe @Dreamstorm listed three separate occasions when Adolin does not realize Shallan is seriously upset. I do not agree that Adolin was emotionally perturbed in two of the three occasions and possibly not in any of the three. The time in Kholinar when Shallan returns from her break down Adolin feels relief and believes she is just fine. I consider all three occasions to be very significant and Adolin does not see that Shallan is upset at any of those times. (I think it is possible that Kaladin would not have noticed either) I think Adolin does not see it because Shallan is a great liar. The more important it is to her, the better she is at hiding it, even from herself. The possible exception is when Shallan does not want to practice with her shardblade. This moment, it seems obvious she is trying to tell him she is upset, but he is tone deaf and ignores her. Or he thinks she is objecting on the grounds that it is too masculine which is also tone deaf. She is in distress and he dismisses this or does not see it. I think @Dreamstorm also brought up a fourth occasion earlier in the thread where Adolin does not see that Shallan is exhausted until she collapses in front of him. This is another reason I do not like their relationship; there is a serious and ongoing discrepancy between the Shallan Adolin sees/knows and the real Shallan. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, maxal said: This being said, for those not seeing enough evidence Adolin loves Shallan, I do know I will not convince you. I do agree having more viewpoints for Adolin would have done wonder in this regards and I too am frustrated at this one sided love story Brandon forced down on us. I however do believe we are supposed to read in between the lines that Adolin does love Shallan. You're right. You won't convince me, by trying to tell me what you think I'm supposed to read between the lines. If, Quote As for Adolin loving Shallan, I do think he does because he actually tries harder with her, he speaks up his desire to make it work (something he never did before) and he is closer to her. is your reason for Adolin loving Shallan, then exactly this reason could be applied to his motivation to just finally be all over with this courting stuff. He might have realised, that he is at the end of the line, when it comes to how many suitable women are available (god, that sounds awful, sorry) for him to court. And, well, his family was also kinda getting fed up with it. (ie Navani and Jasnah both being eager to finally get him married off) Plus, he felt the same way about another woman before - Danlan. He broke that off though, because she said some bad things about him, IIRC. Quote Danlan was also there, of course. She sat on a chair beside Adolin, keeping proper distance, though she’d occasionally touch his arm with her freehand. Her wine was violet. She did like her wine, though she seemed to match it to her outfits. A curious trait. Adolin smiled. She looked extremely fetching, with that long neck and graceful build wrapped in a sleek dress. She didn’t dye her hair, though it was mostly auburn. There was nothing wrong with light hair. In fact, why was it that they all were so fond of dark hair, when light eyes were the ideal?Stop it, Adolin told himself. You’ll end up brooding as much as Father. [...] He didn’t even know Danlan that well yet. He would make his relationship with her last, though. He was tired of Renarin teasing him for jumping in and out of courtships. Danlan was very pretty; it seemed the courtship could work. Way of Kings, Chapter 58: The Journey And he spoke up about wanting to keep Shallan? He hardly did. He mentioned it to Kaladin. Once. In private. You could easily attribute this to a lack of peers before. With nobles, he'd have to be afraid, that they'd use that somehow. What should an upstart bridgeman do? 18 hours ago, maxal said: As soon as there problems or signs it may not be working, Adolin leaves. Backs away. Runs away. Sure this may have been the unconscious wanted result, but he systematically does it. And he does it with Shallan too. Because he actually doesn't want it. He knows, he must marry sooner or later anyway though, so he starts those courtships, when the opportunity arises, but like you said, he doesn't actively seek one. Regarding the word 'womanizer' and the Janala situation: I don't want to slap the label womanizer onto Adolin, because in a Vorin society, where extra-maritial sex is pretty much non-existent (from what we know and not counting prostitution), you factually can't have womanizers. What Adolin is though, is attractive. He attracts a lot of women and, well, switches between them willy-nilly. Not because he wants to seduce as many women as possible, but rather, because he doesn't care about his current dates. He just neglects them. With Janala flirting with him, while he is in a courtship with Rilla, which then ends, because of that flirting... I'm honest, he didn't have to react to it. You don't have to responsive to being flirted at. The fact, that he acknowledges, that this time it technically actually was his fault, tells me that he did exactly that. Quote “She wouldn’t have come,” Adolin said. “Not after…well, you know. Rilla was very vocal yesterday. It was best to just leave.” “You really should have been wiser in your treatment of her,” Renarin said, sounding disapproving. Adolin mumbled a noncommittal reply. It wasn’t his fault that his relationships often burned out quickly. Well, technically, this time it was his fault. But it wasn’t usually. This was just an oddity. Way of Kings, Chapter 12: Unity Same goes, when Melali is genuinely angry and toxic at Adolin and tells him, that his sister is off limits, when Adolin asks about her. This brings Adolin to remember, that he probably flirted with Melali's sister, while courting her. (Chapter 37, WoR) Adolin certainly isn't an angel when it comes to women. I do agree, though, that he doesn't want to seduce women, but he just rather doesn't care about sincerely courting them. With Shallan this seems to change, but we still don't really know. We have multiple instances where he says different things from what he actually thinks, so I for me his internal monologue is stronger, than whatever he says. So, I'm naturally sceptical, that him telling Kaladin he wants to keep Shallan is profound or just putting it in the open, so he actually pulls through with it. It is a technique, that many use that have problems to motivate themselves to things. That is why I see the end scene as such: Adolin really doesn't want a marriage. He likes Shallan, yes, he cares for her and he finds her attractive and probably also likes to make out with her, but he doesn't want to marry her. We even have no real evidence, that he likes her romantically. So, he tells himself: "Great, she likes Kaladin anyway. I can get out of this without being guilty of breaking off the betrothal." Shallan tries to convince him though. He still doesn't really want it though. Until she disarms him completely. "Help me." Like you said, Adolin is selfless and always puts himself last. He just can't say no to that. Note: This doesn't contradict, that Adolin possibly has self-esteem issues. I just don't think, that his relationship problems stem from that. Edited January 10, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeployParachute Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 13 hours ago, maxal said: My personal take on Adolin's flaws is the following: Hero worship complex: I consider a lot of Adolin's behavior, including his hot-headiness, his lack of self-confidence are by-product of a medium to severe hero worship complex towards his father. Even if he seen contradicting Dalinar, on occasions, he still views him as the "most amazing man in the world" and he would still "readily die for him". This is definitely not solved. Lack of self-confidence: This one I think is the result of his hero-worship complex combined to Dalinar's descend within the darkness. He was beaten down during his most important years and told by the man he idolizes he just falls short of the mark. He coped through it by working harder, always working harder and always thinking he deserved the rebuff. I believe this flaw has caused his issues with relationships and it has made him step down in favor of Kaladin: he wouldn't even try to fight for Shallan. He considers he has lost even before thinking of making it a fight. Workaholic: He compensates hardships by drowning himself into work. Whenever he meets resistance, he spontaneously focuses onto the next task at hand, no matter what it may be. He doesn't chafe at it because it isn't "important" enough, but we have yet to see how he would deal with complete inactivity, with the inability to work. I personally find Adolin's motto is a very unhealthy habit disguised as a healthy one because it, at least, isn't a known mental illness. Perfectionist: This is tied with the lack of self-confidence: he feels he needs to be perfect to be worthy, so he over-works himself to meet impossible ideals. When he feels he isn't meeting them, he takes it on himself. Selflessness: He always puts himself last: he will die for others even when it makes better sense he does not. Could or could not be a flaw, just something about his character which has always made me sad. Emotional: He is an outward emotive individuals who doesn't deal well threats. He can have outburst if someone he loves is threatened too hard, but is unlikely to react of he is personally threatened. He is emotionally easily manipulated. This is getting quite long, but so were my thoughts. So regarding character flaws, I think a couple of things need to be present in order for me to believe that an author has done a good job in making the flaws legitimate to the reader - The "flaw" does not just relate to a one off moment in the narrative. It is persistent, and is referenced at multiple instances throughout the narrative. - The flaw needs to actually have a meaningful, or measurable affect on the character's behavior, decisions, and they should face some measure of consequences for their flaws, otherwise, the flaws are not defining character flaws, but instead are momentary lapses. Note, that this is just my belief around good writing, and I fully expect disagreement on these points from other people, but if I were to apply these two principles of mine to your list, some of them fit, and others don't. And I'd like to discuss further... 1. Hero worship: Fully agree here, and I think you can find multiple instances in the text where Adolin continually idolizes Dalinar, and instances where this trait impacts Adolin in negative ways during events throughout the narrative 2. Lack of self confidence: This one seems a bit trickier. I never, ever got the sense throughout WoK or WoR that Adolin suffered from a persistent lack of confidence in himself or his abilities. Or at least there is no clear scene or portion of the narrative I can recall that would indicate this to me. The only thing referenced as a potential for this one in WoR is in reference to his poor relationship skills, and even here, I think there is room for debate on whether this is a result of Adolin actually being poor and not confident in this area, OR it is simply Adolin sabotaging himself because he really doesn't WANT to be good at them. To me, Adolin's lack of self confidence is not something we really see until OB, where a change in his circumstances, position in social hierarchy, and competition to his love interest start to challenge the preconceived notions he's had about his confidence in his abilities. To me, the lack of self confidence is a new thing Adolin is feeling at the start of OB, and is pretty much resolved by the end of the Book. It is not a persistent character trait that he has been dealing with for a long time, but it is something that he had to deal with this book. 3. Again, this one I would disagree with. Other than the scene in OB where he dives into organizational tasks for Urithuru in the beginning, I really can't recall any instance in previous books that indicated to me that Adolin was a workaholic. He seemed to do just fine balancing his responsibilities (serving in his fathers army, investigating the strap, training, inspecting, patrolling etc) with things he enjoyed (drinking, courting, dueling) etc. In fact, he resisted initially much of the discipline and work ethic that Dalinar was imposing on him via the codes, because it interfered with his ability to take his leisure. This is not something i would expect from a workaholic either. I would say, more citations needed to demonstrate this point, other than the single instance. Otherwise, it is the same as above, a temporary item that he adopts in order to deal with a change in circumstance in the narrative. 4. Perhaps this could be true. I've never seen anything in the text to suggest that Adolin is a perfectionist at anything other than dueling. Maybe you have some more scenes that can further support this (being the resident Adolin expert, I know you must have some tucked away )? Otherwise, I think you may be projecting what you WISH Adolin had regarding his character traits, rather than what is actually written for the character. 5. Yes, he is definitely selfless, no arguments here. Whether it is a flaw, according to my own interpretations: well, it is regular, it is defining and repeats itself throughout the narrative. Does it have negative impacts to his character or what little arc he has been given? Not at the moment. Despite all his moments of self sacrifice, everything has worked out for him anyway. Something maybe we agree is a problem with the way the character has been written? I dunno. Show me an instance where his selflessness actually backfired on him, and caused him grief as a character, then I think we can add this one to the list 6. Emotionally easily manipulative - I would definitely say this would be very close to a character flaw. Shallan does it to him, Dalinar to an extent, Sadeas at the end. Sadeas had a very (at least initially) definite negative impact, i.e. the murder, though the long term consequences of it for Adolin personally seem pretty null. I think there is potential to see personal impact to him from Shallan's own emotional manipulation as we delve deeper into their marriage, so we'll have to see. Ultimately, many of these, if indeed these were flaws Brandon intended to convey to us, don't really seem that deep or impactful to Adolin as a character, or where he ends up in the narrative at least so far. Perhaps that is because there isn't enough page space, or Brandon doesn't feel inclined to make it deeper, I do not know. Some of these I think are worth exploring the earlier books to see if they hold up to the "persistence" rule I made for myself and outlined above. There might be indications of a lot of this in the text that I just don't know about, that's probably why I'll need to rely on you to help by posting them here. But if we don't find them, then I fear that we are merely trying to project onto this character because of the lack of depth he currently has... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 @maxal I always like reading your take on Adolin (even if I don't agree with everything) because I can tell he's a character you really care about! I agree (mostly) with your list of traits, but that wasn't really what I was getting at as far as character flaws - things which are faults of Adolin's that a reader would consider to be unequivocally bad. (All humans have these; writing convention says characters need them to be interesting and make readers emotional invested.) Of your list, I see workaholic, perfectionist, selfless and emotional to be character traits for sure, but I think many people would see these as positives at least unless overdone. (I.e. wanting to work is good, and though working too much may have a negative effect on someone, it's not a flaw per se unless a character prioritizes work above all else, in which case the flaw would be that the character is selfish. For perfectionist, if overdone the flaw would be the character is obsessive, etc.) As for a hero-worship complex, I think whether you see this as good or bad depends on how one sees Dalinar (I know you have a negative view of him), but if this is to be characterized as a flaw, I would call it poor judgment (looking up to someone who shouldn't be looked up to.) With lack of self-confidence, I don't see this in WoK and WoR. (I definitely see this developing in OB though, so agree there.) Can you point me to places in WoK and WoR where Adolin shows lack of confidence? To respond to a couple of your points specifically: 13 hours ago, maxal said: Has it disappeared because OB didn't really show this side of Adolin? Of course not! Adolin is still the same emotionally impulsive young man, but within OB, his family was not in danger. Also, he is always calm and collected within battles because this is a known environment, so he knows what to do. I personally think this is still very much part of Adolin's character and I do think it tends to manifest itself whenever Adolin sees harm done at others. I agree with most of this, but I think Adolin is maturing out of aspects of it - for instance, we see him take rash actions in battle with Jakimav (Ch. 14, The Feather - I also incorrectly identified this as Relis previously) but by the end of WoR he is much more thoughtful in his approach (approaching the Parshendi by a sneak attack.) I think experiences like what happened when he was imprecise in his duel challenge have helped him mature in this regard. (He beats himself up immensely for "agreeing" to the 4v1 duel.) While I completely agree that Adolin can "snap" (and that it is likely we will see this in the future), I think he has matured in general related to his impulsiveness. For instance, in Kholinar, we see him remain level-headed even though he just saw his cousin killed right in front of him. 13 hours ago, maxal said: Arrogance: My thoughts are Adolin is arrogant in order to hide his lack of self-confidence: best disguise ever. No one thinks the guy who brags so much doubts himself as well. He more or less explains it in chapter 14, WoR. Good call out with the line in Ch. 14 ("I speak so confidently to everyone else," Adolin sais, "since I know they rely on me."), but we do have a WoB that Adolin thinks he is better than he actually is ("Adolin's pretty good, but Adolin's not as good as he thinks he is." https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e6139). Regardless, we don't see this type of attitude from Adolin in OB, and given his new downgraded status (non-Radiant), it's unlikely to reemerge. 13 hours ago, maxal said: Dalinar and Renarin thought Adolin mistrusted Kaladin because he ordered him around onto the battlefield. Some readers insist it must be the case because it feels consistent with how they have perceived Adolin, but Adolin himself tells us this is not the case. Adolin does say why he doesn't trust Kaladin, why he reacts badly to him and it has nothing to do with being ordered and everything to do with being suspicious of Kaladin's talents combined with the feeling he is lying (which he was). This isn't without forgetting Adolin was beyond exhausted during this scene: his face was sleek with sweat, Dalinar said he was over-extending himself and Kaladin later describes Adolin's physical state as being "practically unconscious". No way was Adolin anywhere capable of having any complex at all during this scene: he was just dead tired and he feared for his father. His later viewpoints indicate no remorse nor ill-feelings towards the event: people just assume this must be the reason. I think Adolin's behavior on the battlefield is understandable and not what I was getting at - it was his reaction afterwards. While I agree Adolin was always suspicious of Kaladin, that's not all that is going on here as Adolin himself remarks Kaladin doesn't know his place. (See quote below.) This is completely understandable as this was how Adolin was raised to think. Honestly, it'd be odd if he didn't feel like it was improper for Kaladin to act above his darkeyed station. Most lighteyes supremely dislike Kaladin for this, with some odd exceptions (such as Elhokar, who takes to him immediate liking to him which we learn later is at least partly because Kaladin scares away the Cryptics.) This is gone now, though, and Adolin's fraternization with Skar and Drehy seem to hammer this point home. Quote Adolin slumped in his seat as the bridgeboy left. Kaladin gave no explanation, of course, and didn't ask the king for permission to withdraw. Storming man seemed to consider himself above lighteyes. No, the storming man seemed to consider himself above the king. WoR, Ch. 33, Burdens 13 hours ago, maxal said: I have a hard time listing this as a flaw because he was insensitive to Shallan once. He was emotionally perturbed at the time. As for the WoB, Adolin has shown an unseen ability to read other people, less so with women, but this compared to above normal abilities with men. There is no reason to believe he is worst at it than any other character. @wotbibliophile covered this well that there are at least four instances where Shallan is in a lot of distress but Adolin doesn't notice - when he asks her to learn sword fighting, when he tells her Kaladin killed Helaran, when she comes back from her breakdown as Veil and when she nearly collapses in Shadesmar (the latter he does notice at the very end.) I just want to add that I wasn't comparing him to other characters, but noting this is a flaw of Adolin's Brandon shows us multiple times in OB. However, I will contrast this with the fact he does notice she's upset on Honor's Path and asks her about it, so perhaps we're supposed to imply his read of Shallan improves over the book. (Something to note if you want to argue that - it gives Adolin's read on Shallan being into Kaladin more validity. Note Shallan herself tells Adolin he's misreading her with regard to her intentions towards Kaladin.) 13 hours ago, maxal said: Abduction of duty: Yes and no. I never read this as negative, but as Adolin making the realistic choice of not becoming the king. I do think he is right in saying others wouldn't have listened to him readily: most see him as a child, like Ialai. He wasn't the best choice the Kholin household had at the time. I also find there is great maturity in refusing a duty when you feel you aren't up to the task. I certainly do not think Adolin had to accept the throne just because he was "next in line": the idea it ought to go to the best qualified person is the first step towards democracy and I can't be against that. I don't know if in the end Brandon will have this be a good thing for Adolin's character, but I personally agree with you that I think Brandon will have it be a good thing, but for different reasons. Like @Rainier pointed out, Adolin is now living a life which is the opposite of what he's said he wants. In the end, I think it will be good if he lives the life he wants to live, but it will likely be a painful process for him throwing off the bonds of the life he thinks he is supposed to live. Total aside - I want him to go to Rira, as I have a feeling that society will be more to his liking than the unemotional, militaristic, duty-bound Alethi society, plus I think he could have a fundamental role in forging an alliance between those two factions. 13 hours ago, maxal said: Lack of remorse: I wouldn't label this one this way. I would say the flaw isn't the lack of remorse, it is his blind trust in Dalinar. No doubt thinking Sadeas torched the Rift influenced how he viewed the man: he never liked him. The real flaw is not seeing the truth with sits right in front of him when it comes to people he loves. As with "emotional insensitivity", the stronger his emotions, the worst he gets at reading people. Adolin can't feel remorse because Sadeas was trying to harm Dalinar. Had he taken the right decision? Probably not, but he can't see it because all he sees is Dalinar's safety. That's the flaw: being too centered on Dalinar. Thinking Dalinar is worth more than him, thinking Dalinar's life is more important than his. Storms, you hate Dalinar!! I don't agree with a lot of this... First of all, although he dislikes what happened at the Rift, this doesn't seem to be the main source of Adolin's hatred for Sadeas (don't forget he thinks Evi was killed by assassins before the torching, so he doesn't attribute her death to this.) Before we knew about what happened at the Rift (the "official" Alethi story or the real version), it was really well-developed why Adolin disliked Sadeas. What truth was sitting in front of Adolin that should have mitigated his hatred of Sadeas? Sadeas was deliberately targeting Adolin's princedom which led to the death of thousands of Adolin's soldiers and friends, and almost led to Adolin's own death. Of course Adolin is upset Sadeas almost killed Dalinar too, but there's a lot more to hate Sadeas about. Second, I don't see how the fact Adolin was partially motivated by a desire to protect his father is tied to absolving his lack of remorse. Of course Adolin thinks Dalinar's life is more important than Sadeas, but when he's explaining his justification to Shallan, his focus is on the betrayal and all of the friends of Adolin's who were killed. Adolin's anger is about much, much more than the fact Sadeas was a threat to Dalinar. Regardless, this characterization is absolving Adolin of all responsibility for his own actions - Dalinar didn't tell Adolin to kill Sadeas; Adolin did that on his own. In fact, the main reason Adolin feels guilty (and almost feels remorse) is because he thinks Dalinar will disapprove of what he's done. So if anything, Adolin's feelings towards Dalinar should make him more likely to feel remorse, and he still doesn't. Now, we can argue if Adolin should feel remorse, which is morally ambiguous at the moment. (I personally agree Adolin should and he will see further consequences for this, but I know you disagree on that. I agree there are two views on this issue, both which can be supported.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted January 10, 2018 Report Share Posted January 10, 2018 Hi all. I had a lovely (in my eyes anyway) post for you all to pick apart but then the gas man came, turned off the power and by the time I got back to my laptop the battery had died and lost all my work. I can't be bothered to re-do it but I would like to raise some points: 1) Character flaws for Adolin: a) Arrogance: I don't think Adolin is truly arrogant. To me, arrogance suggests a belief and pride in a skill/trait that you don't actually possess. Adolin is not truly guilty of this in OB. I think there was some arrogance regarding his duelling, but I think it has stopped now that he is "duelling champion" - he doesn't need to prove he is as good as he thinks he is - he has proven that he is better than any other lighteyed person competeing in duels. It is enough for him so he can relax on that score. I don't think it relates to his feelings on inferiority regarding the radiants - I think these two ideas are separate personally. Adolin wasn't arrogant in all areas of his life before OB and I don't see much change to be honest. (b) Workaholic: Nope. He never was one. He has a decent work ethic but he isn't a workaholic. He spends far too much time lounging about with friends and girls. He drinks (albeit lightly), he duels, even when he isn't really supposed to, and he spends 2 weeks in prison because it felt right. That isn't what a workaholic would do. This isn't a critiscm of him - I think Adolin's work ethic is reasonable and decent - he doesn't take it to extremes. (c) Perfectionist I don't actually think so. Again, Adolin doesn't really do extremes. He is capable of "perfection" in his duel in WoR, but he doesn't fight perfectly in the others (which he doesn't chafe at - which is what you'd expect from a perfectionist). He also tolerates being teased by Renarin for changing partners every 5 minutes. He even likes Wit despite being teased about it - which is something he worries about internally but can still manage to laugh about. A perfectionist would either make it work with someone, or, more likely, stay single until they found their "perfect" partner. Additionally we see plenty of situations where he isn't a perfectionist - he doesn't hold to or follow the codes perfectly, he doesn't behave "perfectly" in Alethi society, he admits to not working terribly hard at learning things in the past - and multiple people think he is not that bookish. To me Renarin is the perfectionist - not Adolin. d) Selfless: Not sure how anyone could call this a flaw? That aside, I don't see Adolin as being more selfless than some other members of the cast. I mean, he's not selfish, but there are other members of the cast who are at least equally selfless in my opinion. He is definitely more selfless than plenty of them but I don't see how Kaladin running at the front of the bridgecrews (even before he knows about his stormlight) is less selfless than anything Adolin does? Adolin, again, simply doesn't do things to extreme levels. He's too normal. e) Lack of self confience: So this obviously relates to the arrogance point, but I don't think Adolin is truly lacking in self-confidence. He is neither the most nor the least confident person we see. Kaladin is a naturally confident person (indeed bordering on arrogant) whose experiences have broken that confidence. Shallan is prbably similar, but she broke at a much younger age. Renarin lacks confidence on a much deeper level (indeed I suspect he wouldn't have been confident regardless of upbringing). Dalinar fakes confidence most of the time. Jasnah, in contrast is genuinely confident ost of the time, but has flashes of self-doubt. I think Adolin is much less confident than Jasnah, but nowehere near Renarin's level. He is middle of the road again. f) Emotional sensitivity: Adolin is neither very sensitive, nor especially insensitive. He definitely misses important cues for people's emotions. I would obviously argue that if he were more sensitive, I would be less worried about his marriage to Shallan. He reads some people very well. Renarin and Dalinar of course spring to mind. To me, anyway, it is clear he has spent much more time with men in general and thus reads them better. This may also relate to the fact that as he is "menatlly direct" and thus understands others who also tend to be more direct better than those who are more esoteric. He learns to read Kaladin pretty quickly as a result, and I think it is true of Skar and Drehy. Note that men tend to be more straightforward in their emotional responses, women tend to obfuscate more. I don;t therefore blame Adolin for missing things, but I don't think you can say he is the best in the cast at it when we see him miss several cues that we see. And not just in OB - he misses things from Shallan in WoR. It's not surprising that he would read Renarin and Dalinar well - they are family after all, but I don't think he is better at reading people than most of our cast. Jasnah certaily reads Shallan better than he does for example. It may even be the situation that most of Bridge 4 are not far behind Adolin in reading Renarin now - they he is certainly completely at home with them now - perhaps even more so than he is with Adolin. I think my point is mostly that once again, Adolin is not sitting at either ends of the spectrum. g) Abdication of duty: I personally feel this is neither a virtue nor a flaw. The issue is that Adolin doesn't tell us what his motivations are. I think he believes that he wouldn't be very good at being king, and frankly, I agree with him. If this is his genuine reason, then it is a good thing - he is a better man than Elhokar in this for example. On the other hand, if his motivation is more about not wanting the responsibility - then it is a flaw. I mean, OB in particular was all about taking responsibility - so this ending doesnt exactly bode well for Adolin. Given that we may be supposed to take Adolin at face value then I feel we can see this as a positive (for now anyway - although I would be unsurprised at future implications). h) Lack of remorse Probably the single biggest concern I have regarding Adolin. People don't learn from mistakes if they don't see them as mistakes. Adolin's attitude was worry about how the murder would be perceived - which I feel feeds into the appearance thing he has. He was less concerned with the morality of the situation. He doesn't seem to worry about that aspect of the crime - his thoughts revolve more around avoiding getting caught and hiding it from dalinar. 17 hours ago, maxal said: To be honest, we weren't given ample enough details as to how this specific courtship went down to truly use it as an "example". For all we know, the sister pursued Adolin while he was dating the other and, being Adolin, he reacted to those advances. Or maybe the sisters teamed up together to make him look bad as "laughing of Adolin" seemed to have been a sport they all played. We just do not know. Given that you yourself have said that we are supposed to be able to read Adolin easily and not infer things from him, I find this argument unlikely. Adolin himself doesn't think the comment was unfair. I suspect it wasn't - You don't get nasty to someone you dated previously without it being a consequence of their treatment of you. 17 hours ago, maxal said: He has no sense of himself. He forgets himself. He ignores himself. He does not hate himself like Shallan nor think his is useless like Renarin, but he tends to put himself dead last. He tends to think everyone deserves better than him which is why he isn't reacting to seeing his every family members being Radiants. It doesn't affect him because deep down, Adolin also thought he was the unworthy one, even if highly skilled, he still failed to make the mark. And this I just don't get. Either we are supposed to be able to read between the lines for Adolin, or we aren't. If we aren't then I have not seen any evidence to support this assertion. If we are, then we open up loads of issues regarding Adolin, like the underlying situation for Sadeas' murder. It can't be both. I'm afraid to suggest that you seem to be projecting somewhat. My point is that Adolin does put himself first in most of his relationships because he doesn't actually make any effort with his partners. Even if that a consequence of a lack of self-esteem, someone who truly put themselves last wouldn't ignore their partners because they were afraid of commitment. They'd work harder, probably destroying the relationship in the process. Nothing I have read in book or from WoB suggests this is the case to Adolin imo. TL;DR? well Adolin is middle of the road - he doesn't actually have many extremes. The only extreme situation he creates is the murder of Sadeas and we haven't yet seen the full ramifications of that either interally or externally. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotbibliophile Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, SLNC said: where extra-maritial sex is pretty much non-existent (from what we know and not counting prostitution) How does prostitution not count as extra-marital sex? lol Are all these people married to all these prostitutes? I can't stop laughing. ETA: 3 hours ago, PhineasGage said: f) Emotional sensitivity: Adolin is neither very sensitive, nor especially insensitive. He definitely misses important cues for people's emotions. I would obviously argue that if he were more sensitive, I would be less worried about his marriage to Shallan. He reads some people very well. Renarin and Dalinar of course spring to mind. To me, anyway, it is clear he has spent much more time with men in general and thus reads them better. This may also relate to the fact that as he is "menatlly direct" and thus understands others who also tend to be more direct better than those who are more esoteric. He learns to read Kaladin pretty quickly as a result, and I think it is true of Skar and Drehy. Note that men tend to be more straightforward in their emotional responses, women tend to obfuscate more. I don;t therefore blame Adolin for missing things, but I don't think you can say he is the best in the cast at it when we see him miss several cues that we see. And not just in OB - he misses things from Shallan in WoR. It's not surprising that he would read Renarin and Dalinar well - they are family after all, but I don't think he is better at reading people than most of our cast. Jasnah certaily reads Shallan better than he does for example. It may even be the situation that most of Bridge 4 are not far behind Adolin in reading Renarin now - they he is certainly completely at home with them now - perhaps even more so than he is with Adolin. I think my point is mostly that once again, Adolin is not sitting at either ends of the spectrum. 3 hours ago, PhineasGage said: well Adolin is middle of the road - he doesn't actually have many extremes. I agree here. I also see Adolin as very middling. He reminds me of Ivan Vorpatril (everyone should read Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series). I was afraid to comment on Adolin's emotional sensitivity. I think we have seen some scenes where he is surprisingly perceptive. My first thought was that Kaladin is more emotionally sensitive, but then I remembered how dense he is when there is a lighteyes involved and sometimes he misses the obvious even among Bridge 4. Edited January 11, 2018 by wotbibliophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said: How does prostitution not count as extra-marital sex? lol Are all these people married to all these prostitutes? I can't stop laughing. I don't know what is so funny? Prostitution always existed, but paying a prostitute would never be considered to be a seduction, which is what we are talking about in the womanizing context. Seductions don't (as far as we know) happen in Vorin society, because sexual activity outside of marriage is generally frowned upon. Edited January 11, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wotbibliophile Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 @SLNC Ah I didn't know you were saying prostitution doesn't count as a seduction. I read it as you were not counting prostitution as extra-marital sex. I don't know how frowned upon extra-marital sex actually is. Everyone seems to take prostitutes in stride and I think Sadeas routinely raped women. It may be only lighteyed women are truly discouraged to have extra-marital sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Just now, wotbibliophile said: @SLNC Ah I didn't know you were saying prostitution doesn't count as a seduction. I read it as you were not counting prostitution as extra-marital sex. I don't know how frowned upon extra-marital sex actually is. Everyone seems to take prostitutes in stride and I think Sadeas routinely raped women. It may be only lighteyed women are truly discouraged to have extra-marital sex. Which is why I always made sure to say: as far as we know. But, since we're talking about Adolin, this would include all suitable women for courtship. Fact is, Adolin shouldn't be called a womanizer, because he can't be one due to social constraints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 13 hours ago, wotbibliophile said: I disagree here. I believe @Dreamstorm listed three separate occasions when Adolin does not realize Shallan is seriously upset. I do not agree that Adolin was emotionally perturbed in two of the three occasions and possibly not in any of the three. The time in Kholinar when Shallan returns from her break down Adolin feels relief and believes she is just fine. I consider all three occasions to be very significant and Adolin does not see that Shallan is upset at any of those times. (I think it is possible that Kaladin would not have noticed either) I think Adolin does not see it because Shallan is a great liar. The more important it is to her, the better she is at hiding it, even from herself. The possible exception is when Shallan does not want to practice with her shardblade. This moment, it seems obvious she is trying to tell him she is upset, but he is tone deaf and ignores her. Or he thinks she is objecting on the grounds that it is too masculine which is also tone deaf. She is in distress and he dismisses this or does not see it. I think @Dreamstorm also brought up a fourth occasion earlier in the thread where Adolin does not see that Shallan is exhausted until she collapses in front of him. This is another reason I do not like their relationship; there is a serious and ongoing discrepancy between the Shallan Adolin sees/knows and the real Shallan. The purpose of this part of my post was to refer to "character flaws" within Adolin's character. I personally consider a "flaw" to be something a given individual has to work on, something which could/should be improved and/or something which could realistically cause him trouble. I do not find "emotional insensitivity" is one of Adolin's character flaw: not when he has shown to be the most "emotional sensitive" character we have on the cast. Yes, there were times when he did not appropriately react to Shallan and he did not draw the right conclusions. They usually happen when Adolin himself is emotionally perturbed. Within the additional example you have listed, Adolin had stayed up all night worried sick over Shallan: he most definitely was emotional disturbed. As such I would certainly not say it is a "character flaw" of his if he didn't read more into Shallan's behavior: he was too relief to see her to focus on anything else, not to forget they were just about to attack the palace. Within the Shardblade training "incident", I certainly believe you are too harsh on Adolin. He was extraordinarily excited over the prospect of teaching Shallan: he had no reason to believe she'd have issues just yielding the Blade. He was also digging into something which is dear to him, so yet again, he was emotionally disturbed, just in a positive way. It was the same kind of excitement which got him into the 4 on 1 duel. I find saying Adolin is "tone deaf" extraordinarily harsh given what we know of the character and the circumstances. Nobody is ever going to be able to constantly, repetitively read a significant other without failure, especially when this significant other is trying to hide things. Also, Adolin never dismisses Shallan's feelings, not after he is being made aware of them. I do not consider him not figuring them out on the spot to be a "flaw", Shallan she is very hard to read: she does not want him to read her. Not yet. Not before she is ready to deal with all of it. Therefore, to ask of Adolin to spontaneously know everything single things which ails Shallan the second she shows the tiniest sign she might potentially be disturbed by something is totally unfair. It is even more unfair to refer to it as a "character flaw" if he fails to do so. I very much disagree with the notion Adolin is insensitive and tone deaf based on a handful of examples where the behavior is explained by the circumstances. Had Shallan clearly notify Adolin she was feeling distressed and he had clearly proceed to dismiss her, then yeah, alright, we might rate it as a "flaw", but this never happens. 7 hours ago, SLNC said: You're right. You won't convince me, by trying to tell me what you think I'm supposed to read between the lines. If, is your reason for Adolin loving Shallan, then exactly this reason could be applied to his motivation to just finally be all over with this courting stuff. He might have realised, that he is at the end of the line, when it comes to how many suitable women are available (god, that sounds awful, sorry) for him to court. And, well, his family was also kinda getting fed up with it. (ie Navani and Jasnah both being eager to finally get him married off) Plus, he felt the same way about another woman before - Danlan. He broke that off though, because she said some bad things about him, IIRC. I was not trying to convince you, I was merely stating how I read it. As for Danlan, what always hit me with this relationship is how superficial it is: Adolin only comments on her physical looks whereas with Shallan he comments on her personality. It is also clear for me, Adolin and Shallan connect much better than Adolin and Danlan whom were never genuine one next to the other, unlike Adolin and Shallan. I suspect this is something most people within this thread would readily disagree with, but I have always read Adolin/Shallan's relationship as being very genuine: they interest themselves into each other from the start, both listening to the other and taking care to know each other better. Danlan, she was no different than any other date Aodlin ever had: they went to the wine house, they had a superficial meaningless talk where Adolin withhold was he was truly feeling which is much unlike with Shallan where he opens-up. Jasnah and Navani want to marry him off because he is 23 years old within a society where it is usual to marry while being within your teens. He's also Dalinar's heir and, as such, he needs to have heirs himself. Everyone knows the future of the line won't pass through Renarin. 7 hours ago, SLNC said: And he spoke up about wanting to keep Shallan? He hardly did. He mentioned it to Kaladin. Once. In private. You could easily attribute this to a lack of peers before. With nobles, he'd have to be afraid, that they'd use that somehow. What should an upstart bridgeman do? Precisely. He told Kaladin. It is much more than whatever he did with the other girls. Would should a bridgeman do? Offer a sympathetic non-judgmental ear. Adolin makes it very clear: everyone thinks he is good with women and he knows his ways, but the truth is, he isn't. I thought it was nice and a really good sign he was willing to admit as much. He never tried to reach out for help with any of the other girls. 7 hours ago, SLNC said: Because he actually doesn't want it. He knows, he must marry sooner or later anyway though, so he starts those courtships, when the opportunity arises, but like you said, he doesn't actively seek one. Regarding the word 'womanizer' and the Janala situation: I don't want to slap the label womanizer onto Adolin, because in a Vorin society, where extra-maritial sex is pretty much non-existent (from what we know and not counting prostitution), you factually can't have womanizers. What Adolin is though, is attractive. He attracts a lot of women and, well, switches between them willy-nilly. Not because he wants to seduce as many women as possible, but rather, because he doesn't care about his current dates. He just neglects them. With Janala flirting with him, while he is in a courtship with Rilla, which then ends, because of that flirting... I'm honest, he didn't have to react to it. You don't have to responsive to being flirted at. The fact, that he acknowledges, that this time it technically actually was his fault, tells me that he did exactly that. Same goes, when Melali is genuinely angry and toxic at Adolin and tells him, that his sister is off limits, when Adolin asks about her. This brings Adolin to remember, that he probably flirted with Melali's sister, while courting her. (Chapter 37, WoR) Adolin certainly isn't an angel when it comes to women. I do agree, though, that he doesn't want to seduce women, but he just rather doesn't care about sincerely courting them. Readers have debated for years as to why Adolin keeps on screwing up his relationships: most readers probably believed he just enjoyed the chase and/or he just didn't want to get married just yet. I always thought those take clashed with Adolin's inner monologue: if he were so keen onto not succeeding within the relationship department, if he was so keen onto keeping things as is with a new random girl every month, then why isn't he objecting to the "casual"? Chapter 28 in WoR does give us the answer. Jakamav, considered to be Adolin's best friend before his betrayal, does phrase it right: he is surprised Adolin of all people would agree to it. Why is he surprised? Because he, like the readers, are assuming Adolin is a player and a womanizer, such men never want attached, they would never agree to an "arranged wedding" even if they are free to walk out of it shall they not like the girl. Adolin, himself, is... relieved. Not stressed out, not worried, not angry: relieved. Why? Because he actually wants a relationship, but he can't make them work, so he hopes by being "set-up" it will magically work-out. Also, the casual had for purpose to stop having women calling on Adolin all the time, which it did. My personal take is while Adolin does neglect his dates and is an awful boyfriend, certainly not an angel, he still does not do it "on purpose". He just never really realizes what he does wrong until it hits him in the face: there is a lot of denial within his behavior. The narrative really highlights how Adolin is not doing on purpose even if we, the readers, tend to think it is impossible he is not aware of his actions, except he is. He has a block of sort when it comes to relationships which is why I was frustrated to see it go away so easily with Shallan: this was not well brought up within the narrative. Of course, I have @Dreamstorm, @DeployParachute and @PhineasGage posts with great interest and pleasure. It is however too late for myself to answer to them properly. I will thus postpone responding until I have the huh ability to write actual decent answers. In the meantime, @PhineasGage, I am curious to know why you find Renarin perfectionist. I never read this within his character. My reasons for saying I read it into Adolin though are linked to his desire to always be what others wish of him, to be perfect, to be Dalinar's perfect son. He also works hard with his skills, perfecting them, honing them. My reasons into thinking it may end up being a flaw is I felt it put a lot of pressure onto his shoulders: always wanting to be the pillar of his family, to support everyone. I have been curious to read how he would react to being within the incapacity to be all he believes he needs to be. Arguably, he makes steps towards breaking his image in the end of OB, but we have yet to see where it will carry him. Also, a given individual can seek perfection in one area, but not within others. Adolin can very well seek to be perfect for Dalinar while not being able to reproduce it for his numerous courtships. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_anagram_here Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) What bothers me about Adolin's behavior towards Shallan is that not only he fails to notice that she is deeply troubled on numerous important occasions but he turns the interactions into something about himself instead of her. (as the "braided rose" technique goes we have three of these) Teaching her to sword fight: In the WoR ending, we are noticing that Adolin's self esteem wavers since the world has 'turned around' on him. Instead of him being the prince of Alethkar, Knight Radiants now re-emerge and take the highest source of power (and the spot light). Also, turns out, his betrothed is one of them so he can't possibly break the betrothal now. Feeling inadequate for the position he decides he will take the higher ground by teaching her how to sword fight, because he assumes 'ah, she is a woman how well can she possibly fight'. (little does he know that Shallan has survived death on numerous occasions and being the underdog actually gives her even more credit on the matter) Veil's meltdown: In The Girl Who Stood Up chapter, Shallan is found after how many hours of being absent (overnight?) and he doesn't even notice how distressed she is on the inside but on the contrary, comments on her appearance, the color clash on her clothes. Much later on, in Shadesmar, when she finally gets the chance to talk to him about her inner turmoil with multiple personalities, he counters her argument with 'I killed Sadeas'. Again, he manages to turn things about him, much so that she completely fails to explain what she was trying to say in the first place. We don't even get a contributing word from him apart from 'Ash's eyes, Shallan' to acknowledge that he indeed understands her issue. Does he even believe the personalities exist at this point? It certainly felt a bit like he was avoiding to comment, deflecting with a hug and a compliment instead. Thaylen Field battle aftermath: Finally, he actually notices with his own eyes that the personalities are indeed real and are keeping her from functioning as a whole. He finally witnesses that she is fragmenting, distressed and very much troubled indeed. What is his inner thought on the matter? We don't know. Because at this point, we are witnessing her point of view and we are led through her interpretation of the exchange. She basically takes it as 'he knows me' and anchors herself on a squeeze of a hand, but what does he actually do? Did he do this consciously? Did he take up the responsibility of that anchor? No, all he ever did was say 'Something's wrong' and give her a hug. And actually, on their next conversation together he wants to break up. To me, this was his answer: 'wow she is completely nuts, time to bolt'. How does he say it? Again, he manages to bring our his own self-esteem issues, maybe jealousy of Kaladin earning her attention, losing his power over her and tells her 'I'm going to let him have you'. Edited January 11, 2018 by insert_anagram_here typos 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 hours ago, maxal said: not when he has shown to be the most "emotional sensitive" character we have on the cast. AGain, I disagree with this. Adolin is decently sensitive, but not extraordinarily so. If he were, we would see him make intuitive leaps with people much more frequently. I'm not saying he's insensitive, just that he isn't more sensitive than most of our other characters. Lets look at some: 1) Shallan - she is very intuitive and often knows the right thing to say on an instinctive level to get people to support her. She reads Adolin very well - although some of this is because he is an easier read anyway. That beings said, she approaches the deserters, Dalinar, even Navani, in ways that gain their trust really quickly. In Shallan's case she is mostly doing it to manipulate them - indeed exceptionally emotionally sensitive people are the best at manipulation because they can appear as they need to to gain their own ends. 2) Kaladin - I'd put Kaladin and Adolin in a similar place here. Kaladin also reads certain people much better than others - but for me, he reads Shallan better than Adolin does. He is insensitive to Lyn, because of a prejudice, but overall is good about reading the mood of his men. He reads Adolin and Dalinar well once he gets passed the lighteyes prejudice he has. Like Adolin, he reads men better than women. Hardly a surprise. The reason I put these two men on an even keel is multifold: 1) from a litereary perspective, they are clearly meant to represent mirrors/foils to one another - perhaps running along the "hero" and "lancer" trope. They either reflect each other through similarity or through distinct differences. I see this as being one of the similarities. 2) We see both Adolin and Kaladin misunderstand people on multiple occasions, but see the truth of things on other occasions. It is the differences in these episodes that drives their narratives. From my perspective, they see and miss almost opposite things. For example in WoR, Kaladin sees Shallan's distress in the carriage and Adolin misses it. I know we don't see Adolin's perspective, but assuming we are meant to think Kaladin is right in his assessment, then Adolin does noss Shallan being upset. This is something that is displayed time and time again with Shallan. On the other hand, Adolin interacts well with darkeyes etc that he has only just met. He relates well to Drehy and Skar - perhaps is even more friendly with them than Kaladin, and while that may not be advisable, he certainly reads them better than Kaladin does now on a personal level. 3) Dalinar - doesn't read either of his sons that well imo, though he is getting better at reading Renarin. He reads Adolin better than Renarin because they have more in common. I think he views Adolin in particular with rose-coloured glasses - he feels Adolin is a better man than he is for example, and whilst that is obviously true that Adolin is better at 23 than Dalinar was at the same age, I personally feel it is less clear cut now - Dalinar has made great strides in becoming a better man than he was - Adolin, on the other hand is not making such a journey- albeit because he started as a better person anyway. He reads Navani well now, but clearly didn't trust his read of her in the past. I feel that Dalinar, more so than either Adolin or Kaladin for example, tends to read men better than women. He manages better with people who are "mentally direct" - which is why he struggles with the diplomacy side of his new role. He will likely improve with practice. I don't see Adolin getting better or worse than he is at present because as far as we know his new role as HighPrince won't change the way he has to interact with people. I am prepared to be wrong on this, but growth will only come if he has to change his current methods - I don't see that being a thing for him - in part because there is going to be a timeskip so huge character growth is very unlikely for any of our characters. 4) Jasnah - also doesn't read people brilliantly - she is probably the least emotionally sensitive person we have in the cast. She is certainly worse than Adolin on this level. SHe is more concerned with the logical thought processes than the emotional ones. I suspect she is getting better though - indeed the admission of not appreciating Shallan's artistic skill is possibly a first step to admitting that the emotional side of people is as important as the intellectual side. I think this works well from a literary perspective because she is the opposite to Shallan on this trait and this gives them a series of interesting conflicts - eg the thieves in Khrabranth among others. 5) Renarin - in my mind, Renarin is the most sensitive member of our cast. Remember he is seeing things about people's behaviour (including but possibly not limited to future sight) and is still not judgemental. Lets be clear, he sees Jasnah kill him, and doesn't fight back or even disagree with her position. He sees Dalinar fall to the influence of the Thrill and doesn't blame him, he simply mourns the loss of his father. He is the son who actually helps Dalinar start coming to terms with the terrible father he has been by supporting him when Dalinar hits rock bottom. And this is especially hard for Renarin because he is not actually comfortable around people. I suspect people find him off putting almost because he can read them too well. He sees through the masks that people wear. Adolin even more or less tells us that only Renarin really knows him. So, again, for me Adolin is fine at this, but not the best. We have no demonstrations of exceptional reading, and plenty of episodes of misunderstandings/missed issues. Let me clear, that's normal - very few people are exceptional at this because we are all too selfish, but most of us are at least ok at it because it is a useful skill for a human being to have. Adolin may be above average, but that doesn't make hi the best. 6 hours ago, maxal said: Within the Shardblade training "incident", I certainly believe you are too harsh on Adolin. He was extraordinarily excited over the prospect of teaching Shallan: he had no reason to believe she'd have issues just yielding the Blade. But he missed her fear completely. I don't blame him for missing him but he cannot be extraordinary at reading people if he misses this. He may be decent, but you are claiming that he is the best and then saying that any examples of him not being the best don't count. I don't think anyone is saying Adolin is bad at reading people. But I don't think it is reasonable to say he is head and shoulders better than others when we have canon proof that he isn't extraordinary. 6 hours ago, maxal said: I very much disagree with the notion Adolin is insensitive and tone deaf based on a handful of examples where the behavior is explained by the circumstances. Had Shallan clearly notify Adolin she was feeling distressed and he had clearly proceed to dismiss her, then yeah, alright, we might rate it as a "flaw", but this never happens. Um, I don't think he is always tone deaf, but there are definitely examples of it. If we always say "oh it doesn't count because x or y" then we have to say the same for all out characters. Why was Kaladin tone-deaf with Lyn? Oh because he was distracted by other things at the time. It doesn't actually matter - he was tone deaf. It doesn't matter whether Adolin was excited to teach Shallan or not, he still missed it. Indeed, in both these circumstances, it is the fact that they ignore the reaction they are getting that makes the situation seem worse - if they were trying and failing to understand, then it would be sympathetic, but in both these cases both come off as a bit self-centred. 6 hours ago, maxal said: As for Danlan, what always hit me with this relationship is how superficial it is: Adolin only comments on her physical looks whereas with Shallan he comments on her personality. It is also clear for me, Adolin and Shallan connect much better than Adolin and Danlan whom were never genuine one next to the other, unlike Adolin and Shallan. I suspect this is something most people within this thread would readily disagree with, but I have always read Adolin/Shallan's relationship as being very genuine: they interest themselves into each other from the start, both listening to the other and taking care to know each other better. I would argue that he comments a great deal on her appearance too. On top of that, it is debatable how much he actually knows her. After all, he doesn't recognise Veil as being a genuine part of Shallan as far as I can see. Their relationship is better than he has with Danlan, but that could be as much because Danlan is clearly there to infiltrate the Kholin household and is not actually that impressed with Adolin right from the start. We can't really use the Danlan relationship as a good example, except that she was also playing a part (as is Shallan) and that relationship clearly failed for some reason, which Adolin doesn't blame himself for (seems a reasonable conclusion imo) 6 hours ago, maxal said: He told Kaladin. It is much more than whatever he did with the other girls. Would should a bridgeman do? Offer a sympathetic non-judgmental ear. Adolin makes it very clear: everyone thinks he is good with women and he knows his ways, but the truth is, he isn't. Why should Kaladin be sympathetic to Adolin? I mean, Kal is a former slave, not a social equal, not Adolin's friend, and Adolin himself resents how quickly Kaladin has become part of the household until only days before this interaction happens. Indeed he still somewhat distrusts Kaladin at this point because he worries that Kal and Szeth are working together. I don't see why Kaladin should be anything other than non-committal (which he is) at this stage - he isn't close to Adolin emotionally at this point. I don't think it is appropriate for Adolin to talk like this to someone who is obviously his subordinate - it muddies the professional relationship they are supposed to have. 6 hours ago, maxal said: Adolin, himself, is... relieved. Not stressed out, not worried, not angry: relieved. Why? Because he actually wants a relationship, but he can't make them work, so he hopes by being "set-up" it will magically work-out. Also, the casual had for purpose to stop having women calling on Adolin all the time, which it did. I don't know. It might be this, it might also be because if it doesn't work out he can't actually be blamed in quite the same way. Also, it puts as much pressure on Shallan to make it work as it does Adolin so she maybe won't run away the way some of the others seem to have done. I think Adolin could make it work if he actually did some introspection and spent some time thinking about why he fails. The fact is though that he doesn't do this at all - indeed he tries not to take responsibility half the time. We have PoV confirmation of this. 6 hours ago, maxal said: My personal take is while Adolin does neglect his dates and is an awful boyfriend, certainly not an angel, he still does not do it "on purpose". He just never really realizes what he does wrong until it hits him in the face: there is a lot of denial within his behavior. Yes I agree - but he isn't interested in finding out what he is doing wrong, he wants it fixed for him. 6 hours ago, maxal said: In the meantime, @PhineasGage, I am curious to know why you find Renarin perfectionist. I never read this within his character. My reasons for saying I read it into Adolin though are linked to his desire to always be what others wish of him, to be perfect, to be Dalinar's perfect son. He also works hard with his skills, perfecting them, honing them. Well lots of things really: 1) Look at the way he knows all about wines. He has obviously spent time finding out about them even though he isn;t actually allowed to drink much 2) Look at the way he throws himself into learning to use his plate and blade. He is definitely unusual in his determination and does exactly what Zahel tells him. 3) He is amazed when he realises his futuresight is not perfect - he had assumed it must be - most people wouldn't in that position - they would assume some flaw or fight against it. Renarin doesn't 4) He shows Adolin a "perfected" version of himself when Renarin heals him in OB. He also "perfects " others when he heals them, by fixing things etc. 5) He heals his own vision (which was presumably always bad) suggesting that he had an idea of what "perfect" vision might be. 6) He is on the autistic spectrum, a series of traits that tend towards perfectionism Given how (relativly ) little we see of Renarin, I think this list is pretty comprehensive. As I said though, Adolin isn't sloppy but he doesn't run to the extreme end of the spectrum. Most people are nearer the middle of most traits and I see Adolin in the same light. True perfectionists really struggle to cope with ideas and situations that don't match their carefully laid plans. Adolin copes almost too well when he has to throw his plans out the window - perfectionists don't do that, by definition, because you can't make it perfect if you are making it up as you go along. Adolin's ability to cope with fast changing, unpredictable situations and take them in his stride is an admirable trait, but it is not perfectionism. Being good at something doesn't make you a perefectionist - you need to be unsatisfied with anything less than perfection to be a perfectionist. As a side point, perfectionists tend to be very difficult to work or live with. They may tolerate imperfection in friends or family, but may also expect equal levels of perfection, particularly in their partner or children. They often find it difficult to manage in owrk situations when they have to work alongside people who are happy to 'just make do' with the situation. Adolin is too easy going to be a perfectionist - he tolerates others flaws too well. Just because he wants to fill Dalinar's perception of him, doesn't make him a perfectionist, it makes him guilty of a massive hero-worship complex for his father. 6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: Thaylen Field battle aftermath: Finally, he actually notices with his own eyes that the personalities are indeed real and are keeping her from functioning as a whole. He finally witnesses that she is fragmenting, distressed and very much troubled indeed. What is his inner thought on the matter? We don't know. Because at this point, we are witnessing her point of view and we are led through her interpretation of the exchange. She basically takes it as 'he knows me' and anchors herself on the a squeeze of a hand, but what does he actually do? Did he do this consciously? Did he take up the responsibility of that anchor? No, all he ever did was say 'Something's wrong' and give her a hug. And actually, on their next conversation together he wants to break up. To me, this was his answer: 'wow she is completely nuts, time to bolt'. How does he say it? Again, he manages to bring our his own self-esteem issues, maybe jealousy of Kaladin earning her attention, losing his power over her and tells her 'I'm going to let him have you'. I have a slightly less anti Adolin take on this. I think he wants to keep Shallan, but understandably is worried he can't. He is not bad to her here, but he doesn't understand what is happening and plays the problem poorly as a result. I don't think we are meant to think he wants to run, because otherwise he wouldn't have let Shallan talk him back into the relationship (i hope). However, he may look back and wish he had run a mile because I suspect she is going to hurt him very very badly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furry-And-Lovable-Grover Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: Teaching her to sword fight: In the WoR ending, we are noticing that Adolin's self esteem wavers since the world has 'turned around' on him. Instead of him being the prince of Alethkar, Knight Radiants now re-emerge and take the highest source of power (and the spot light). Also, turns out, his betrothed is one of them so he can't possibly break the betrothal now. Feeling inadequate for the position he decides he will take the higher ground by teaching her how to sword fight, because he assumes 'ah, she is a woman how well can she possibly fight'. (little does he know that Shallan has survived death on numerous occasions and being the underdog actually gives her even more credit on the matter) So I can't really take issue with most of what you said, but I can't agree with this example at all. Anyone who has been involved in a profession that requires some form of violence will tell you that skill is vitally important. Every example we see of Shallan fighting prior to this does have her as an underdog and at a distinct disadvantage. Shallan frequently uses her enemies expectations against them, and that is absolutely the reason that she has survived every time. Shallan has been very lucky not to have been killed already. As a matter of fact, she has survived things due to her Radiance that would have killed anyone else. Arrow to the head. Sword through the heart. When Shallan has had to confront professional killers, she has lost as often as she has won. Adolin teaching Shallan here is a practical way for Adolin to help Shallan take care of herself and show affection or maybe (if you want to call it that) an act of love, since she doesn't want to be protected or sheltered by anyone else. The text shows that the a person trying to take care of a person he cares for and not a person who is trying to make himself feel better. On your second point, Shallan hasn't outed herself as Veil to Adolin up to this point of Veil breaking, and hasn't confided in him about anything relating to her mental issues yet. For the instance in Shadesmar, it feels more to me like Adolin is trying to make her feel better by coming clean about things he feels guilty about in a situation where Shallan is trying to explain that her identity conflict is born out of her intense guilt. It's not a dismissal of Shallan's state but an expression of empathy and an opportunity for them to be vulnerable to each other. "Ash's eyes" is an expression of grief and compassion from Adolin. Like when you tell you tell your friend, "some jerkface ran over my dog" and then they say "Gee-wilikers!, that's awful." I haven't re-read Thaylenn Field yet, so I don't have any commentary here, except to say that Adolin is famous for sabotaging himself in relationships. Edit: @PhineasGage put together some of my thoughts for me relatively well on Thaylen Field. Edited January 11, 2018 by Furry-And-Lovable-Grover 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_anagram_here Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 44 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: I don't think we are meant to think he wants to run Oh I agree that we aren't meant to understand Adolin as negatively as I pointed out. I think Sanderson clearly wants us to be misled through Shallan's point of view and he can always justify it using her unstable mental state. But if we look at actions said and done, which is the only way to be objective about what is happening outside Shallan's interpretation of them, things aren't so cuddly and nice as she wants them to be. On the contrary, there is an alternative way of interpreting Adolin's actions which is completely opposite to loving and understanding. The future outcome can be on any part of that spectrum. I have been in that position before in my life, when I let someone go because I felt there was someone else more appropriate for them, but honestly I wasn't really that much into them in the first place. Otherwise I would've fought a lot more to keep that special someone in my life, as I happened to do with my current SO. I still think that 'I'm going to let him have you' is definitely not the attitude of a person who is madly in love, especially after witnessing a mental breakdown of that said loved one. Again, notice the wording used here, 'I'm going to let him have you' , is about letting someone else take over, it's not about letting Shallan go, or taking a step back to give her space. This is clearly a sign that he doesn't consider Shallan's opinion as important. Why is that? Maybe it's because he realized that she's a little bit coo coo in the head? Or incapable of making the decision herself? I know Shallan takes offend and addresses the phrase herself , but that doesn't change the fact that he said it in that certain way and that his opinion is made visible through the wording used. 45 minutes ago, Furry-And-Lovable-Grover said: Adolin teaching Shallan here is a practical way for Adolin to help Shallan take care of herself and show affection or maybe (if you want to call it that) an act of love, since she doesn't want to be protected or sheltered by anyone else. I understand what you mean, but she never asked him to teach her. Not only she is afraid of Patternblade but it's probably because she is a Lightweaver, she isn't meant to fight in the conventional sense. If she happens to fall into a circumstance that she needs to fight a more adept swordsman than her, I'm pretty sure a few sessions with Adolin aren't going to be of any help. As I said to Phineas above, I do not think that Sanderson wanted us to interpret Adolin's action as negatively as I have in my previous comment, but if you want to judge what was said and done from an objective point of view, that isn't affected by Shallan the unreliable narrator, what I've given is the worst interpretation possible. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, maxal said: As for Danlan, what always hit me with this relationship is how superficial it is: Adolin only comments on her physical looks whereas with Shallan he comments on her personality. It is also clear for me, Adolin and Shallan connect much better than Adolin and Danlan whom were never genuine one next to the other, unlike Adolin and Shallan. I suspect this is something most people within this thread would readily disagree with, but I have always read Adolin/Shallan's relationship as being very genuine: they interest themselves into each other from the start, both listening to the other and taking care to know each other better. I was just using Danlan as an example to show, that he actually had aspirations to make something work. Nothing else. It would probably have ended in disaster and I agree, that it was good, that it hasn't happened though. Now regarding genuinity between Adolin and Shallan: Adolin is pretty much always genuine to everyone. If he hates someone, he shows that. If he likes someone, he shows that. He is very bad at pretending. Shallan, on the other hand, has never been very genuine with Adolin. She is constantly lying to him. Keeping secrets. She eventually tells him some of her predicament, but only just enough. Also, their relationship doesn't have much more than sexual attraction and emotional dependence on Shallan's side. The first romantic scene between them after their relationship has been set in stone: Quote Shallan breathed out Stormlight, shaping an illusion possible only when she and Dalinar met. Spinning curls of mist swept out to form oceans and peaks—the entire continent of Roshar, a mass of vibrant colors. Highprinces Aladar and Hatham waved for their generals and scribes to walk around the map, which filled the large room, hovering at about waist height. Dalinar stood in the very center of the thing, among the mountains near Urithiru, the illusion rippling and dissolving where it touched his uniform. Adolin wrapped his arms around Shallan from behind. “It looks beautiful.” “You look beautiful,” she replied. “You are beautiful.” "Only because you’re here. Without you, I fade.” Brightness Teshav stood near them, and though the woman normally maintained a stoic professionalism, Shallan thought she caught a hint of an eye roll. Well, Teshav was so old she probably forgot what it was like to breathe most days, let alone what it was like to love. Pure focus on sexual attraction and Shallan's emotional dependence on him. Oh, it gets even worse. Quote It was finally time. The wedding date had been set for only one week away—once the Alethi put their minds to something, they made it happen. Well, that was good. Shallan wouldn’t want to go too far in a relationship without oaths, and storms, even one week was starting to sound like an eternity. [...] Dalinar walked through the illusion, holding his hand over Iri, Rira, and Babatharnam. “Change this part of the land to a burning gold.” It took her a moment to realize he was talking to her. Stupid Adolin and his stupid arms. Stupid strong yet gentle arms pressing against her, right beneath her breasts . . Right. Right. Illusion. Shallan is happy to finally marry Adolin. Isn't that romantic? Yeah, it would be if it weren't for the sole reason of having sex. The bolded part just hammers (pun not intended) this part home. Okay, maybe I'm doing Adolin a disservice here, maybe he is trying to be more romantic, though I haven't seen much in his PoVs from that. In fact, that he often tells different things, than what he thinks, makes think exactly that he isn't and is just trying to say whatever he can to make it work. What he thinks Shallan wants to hear. Well, I guess it worked. Quote Shallan fit her shirt and jacket better from a pure measurements standpoint, but the cut wasn’t flattering. [...] He trailed off as, overhead, the clouds suddenly rippled, glowing with a strange mother-of-pearl iridescence. Another highstorm, their second since arriving in Shadesmar. The group stopped and stared up at the dramatic light show. [...] “I look terrible, don’t I?” she finally asked, nudging him in the side. “No makeup, with hair that hasn’t been washed in days, and now wearing a dumpy set of worker’s clothing.” “I don’t think you’re capable of looking terrible,” he said, pulling her closer. “In all their color, even those clouds can’t compete.” Oathbringer, Chapter 101: Deadeye Shallan certainly isn't trying for that whole romance thing. She is attracted to him and wants to sleep with him, but not much more. Yes, she likes certain traits of him, but to quote herself, he isn't "brilliant or... or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there." What is keeping her by him, is the fact, that she needs him to keep Shallan in control. Is that healthy or a good basis for a life-long relationship? You decide. 13 hours ago, maxal said: Readers have debated for years as to why Adolin keeps on screwing up his relationships: most readers probably believed he just enjoyed the chase and/or he just didn't want to get married just yet. I always thought those take clashed with Adolin's inner monologue: if he were so keen onto not succeeding within the relationship department, if he was so keen onto keeping things as is with a new random girl every month, then why isn't he objecting to the "casual"? Chapter 28 in WoR does give us the answer. Jakamav, considered to be Adolin's best friend before his betrayal, does phrase it right: he is surprised Adolin of all people would agree to it. Why is he surprised? Because he, like the readers, are assuming Adolin is a player and a womanizer, such men never want attached, they would never agree to an "arranged wedding" even if they are free to walk out of it shall they not like the girl. I know, that the readers did that. And now we have (frankly, not much) new information, so why shouldn't any results, that that debate had be reevaluated? Also, I actually argued against labeling Adolin as a womanizer. He was keen on courting the occasional girl, he said that himself, but he also knows, that that is not realistic for him. So he engaged in those multiple courtships, but they broke off one after another, because he didn't really care about them. The fact, that he says himself, that he was interested in courting the occasional girl, gives the impression, that he wasn't really that interested in getting married in the first place. Now, I could get on board the "he loves Shallan, because he's really trying" thing, if he weren't so ecstatic about the betrothal, before he actually met her. This just shows me, that he was in all "oh, rust. My family is getting fed up with my constant courting. I really have to make this work now." mode. Also, he is dutiful. He wouldn't want to disappoint his family by storming this up. In the end, he sees an out with Kaladin catching Shallan's attention. He tries to take it, but Shallan doesn't let him go. He only agrees after she asked for his help, because that is his weak point. He wants to help those he cares about. ETA: 21 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: I have been in that position before in my life, when I let someone go because I felt there was someone else more appropriate for them, but honestly I wasn't really that much into them in the first place. Otherwise I would've fought a lot more to keep that special someone in my life, as I happened to do with my current SO. I still think that 'I'm going to let him have you' is definitely not the attitude of a person who is madly in love, especially after witnessing a mental breakdown of that said loved one. Again, notice the wording used here, 'I'm going to let him have you' , is about letting someone else take over, it's not about letting Shallan go, or taking a step back to give her space. This is clearly a sign that he doesn't consider Shallan's opinion as important. Why is that? Maybe it's because he realized that she's a little bit coo coo in the head? Or incapable of making the decision herself? I know Shallan takes offend and addresses the phrase herself , but that doesn't change the fact that he said it in that certain way and that his opinion is made visible through the wording used. YES! Exactly! When you really are (especially, freshly) in love, you get a certain feeling, when you see that person you're in love with. Adolin doesn't get it when he sees Shallan. In fact, in his head, he criticizes the fit of her clothes. When you are in love and that person just broke down in front of you, you'll fight for that person and not give up on her. Especially, if that person sends you signals, that you have good chances, like Shallan does. He is just not acting like he is in love with her. Hell, maybe he actually wants to push her away from him, because he is getting afraid of her. Edited January 11, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furry-And-Lovable-Grover Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) I promised myself that I wouldn't be a part of this forum because I knew it would suck me in if I did, so I'm going to provide a few thoughts and then fly away. Shallan is a wreck. A dumpster fire even. No contest there. I will say that I think that the issues she has are conquerable issues and they will require honesty, vulnerability, work and patience on her part and those of the people that Shallan is important to. We also can't handwave and say "Shallan is an unreliable narrator" and dismiss everything we see in her perspective or other people's points we don't agree with as false, just because Shallan has issues. So far Shallan's narrative has been relatively consistent with the larger narrative of the story. If nothing in her narrative was going to be reliable, if Shallan's perspective is just a giant red-herring, then there's no good reason to be in there at all. 1 hour ago, SLNC said: Okay, maybe I'm doing Adolin a disservice here, maybe he is trying to be more romantic, though I haven't seen much in his PoVs from that. In fact, that he often tells different things, than what he thinks, makes think exactly that he isn't and is just trying to say whatever he can to make it work. What he thinks Shallan wants to hear. Well, I guess it worked. I don't have the text in front of me, so I can't say for sure, but I was under the impression that Shallan was wearing different clothes at the point when that particular conversation happened? However, it doesn't take well fitting clothes to make someone look good to you when you're genuinely attracted to them anyways. My wife wakes up with bed head and walks around in unflattering tanktops for a good portion of her day, but a lot of the times, there's something about the way she looks that just rings my bell. Probably something to do with letting her guard down and being vulnerable. In this moment where Shallan is vulnerable and needy towards him, I can absolutely see Adolin finding her attractive. Should the entire relationship between the two be like this? Absolutely not, I agree with you. But I do think that commitment to a relationship and another person is an important part of any marriage. I think things between the two of them need to change if they are going to work out long term, but we've got a lot of Stormlight Archive left to see, and it makes sense to me that things could change for the better. Obligation has played a big part in Adolin's life as an heir and as someone who has had to look up to a distant father. He certainly is beginning to come into his own and challenge his fathers desires and look at what he wants for himself. There are a couple of instances where Shallan's unreliability aside, where it really seems like Adolin enjoys her company and makes attempts to engage with her. If he wasn't attracted to her, why bring her books or dinner? If he wasn't into her, why go through with the marriage? Sure the causal betrothal started out as a sort of matchmaking, but that doesn't mean that it has to be devoid of attraction or affection. I think Adolin's commitment issues rise out of boredom, not fear or a desire for bachelorhood. Adolin and Shallan talk at least a couple of times that I can think of off the top of my head about why he feels like he always messes things up in his relationships with the opposite sex. Would those excuses hold up in our culture? Nope, not really. In a fantasy, feudalistic society where power is the absolute standard for success and achievement, and it's okay to lie and cheat and steal and murder your way to the throne, where marriages tend to be more about securing allies? Sure, maybe. I can also say from personal experience that I picked every girl that I got into a relationship with before I met my wife. My wife and I were setup by a married couple friend of ours. I don't see blind dates or even to an extent, an arranged marriage, as an inherently broken thing. I think being open, honest, and allowing yourself to be vulnerable is a part of the process for every successful relationship. 1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said: I still think that 'I'm going to let him have you' is definitely not the attitude of a person who is madly in love, especially after witnessing a mental breakdown of that said loved one. Again, notice the wording used here, 'I'm going to let him have you' , is about letting someone else take over, it's not about letting Shallan go, or taking a step back to give her space. This is clearly a sign that he doesn't consider Shallan's opinion as important. Why is that? Maybe it's because he realized that she's a little bit coo coo in the head? Or incapable of making the decision herself? I know Shallan takes offend and addresses the phrase herself , but that doesn't change the fact that he said it in that certain way and that his opinion is made visible through the wording used. I understand what you mean, but she never asked him to teach her. Not only she is afraid of Patternblade but it's probably because she is a Lightweaver, she isn't meant to fight in the conventional sense. If she happens to fall into a circumstance that she needs to fight a more adept swordsman than her, I'm pretty sure a few sessions with Adolin aren't going to be of any help. As I said to Phineas above, I do not think that Sanderson wanted us to interpret Adolin's action as negatively as I have in my previous comment, but if you want to judge what was said and done from an objective point of view, that isn't affected by Shallan the unreliable narrator, what I've given is the worst interpretation possible. So rhetorically, I can see what you mean. I think that your line of thinking does leave out any considerations of Adolin as a soldier and a leader. One of the things that soldiers and leaders in particular are (or should be) taught is that training makes people successful and if you care about the soldiers under your command, you make sure that they're trained to handle any situation it's possible to train for. Now Shallan isn't Adolin's subordinate but I do think that Adolin cares. Shallan engages with Adolin in ways that are meaningful to him and doesn't play the part of the appropriately feminine brightlady just because she thinks that's what he wants. That behavior that Shallan may or may not be capable of was exactly why Adolin got bored, distracted, and self-sabotaged his other relationship. The affection Adolin has for her would inspire a thoughtful if not necessarily observant Adolin to train her to handle a weapon that a very small portion of people ever get to hold, since there is no reasonable expectation for her to really understand how to use it. Combat-Oriented or not, as a KR, there will be large scale conflict and small scale conflict in a war and it pays dividends to be familiar with any weapon on the battlefield. Adolin and Kaladin have that exact same conversation. It's in Adolin's wheelhouse, and certainly is probably a grounding experience for him, but regardless of an unreliable narrator, there's plenty of reason to view it at the very least in a positive light, even if it's just what Adolin feels is his duty (though if just for duty, why not just schedule her some training with someone else). Shallan might not be comfortable with the Patternblade, but in spite of her fear, she knows that training would be important so she just tries to cope (and does so poorly) and learn what she can from a teacher with plenty of experience. Edited January 11, 2018 by Furry-And-Lovable-Grover typos 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Furry-And-Lovable-Grover said: I think Adolin's commitment issues rise out of boredom, not fear or a desire for bachelorhood. I would agree with you, when he wouldn't have thought this to himself: Quote He’d happily spend his entire life dueling, lounging, and courting the occasional pretty girl. Of late, however, life didn’t seem content to let him enjoy its simple pleasures.# WoK, Chapter 12: Unity Funnily, this is the first chapter, we see with Adolin in it. Where he gets introduced to us and exactly with a sentence like this. I don't think it is boredom. He just doesn't want to commit himself, he'd rather just have a simple life, but he is denied that life. I never thought, that there is no attraction between Adolin and Shallan, that would be nonsense. There definitely is, but by and large only physically. 45 minutes ago, Furry-And-Lovable-Grover said: Also, it doesn't take well fitting clothes to make someone look good to you when you're genuinely attracted to them anyways. My wife wakes up with bed head and walks around in unflattering tanktops for a good portion of her day, but a lot of the times, there's something about the way she looks that just rings my bell. I agree, but I'll assume, that you are in a committed relationship for a few years now. Do you point this out in your head, when you see your wife with bed head and unflattering tanktops? And I also agree, that when you see the person you love, it rings a bell. Adolin doesn't have that with Shallan. He thinks, that she looks flattering sometimes, but when he does, he says, that he likes the clothes (which are actually Veil's) she is currently wearing in his internal monologue. 45 minutes ago, Furry-And-Lovable-Grover said: But I do think that commitment to a relationship and another person is an important part of any marriage. I absolutely agree. Which is why I find it so appalling, that he tries to break off the relationship right after Shallan probably was in her worst state in months. (well, he doesn't know about the conversation with Wit) Wouldn't you fight with the woman you love instead of giving up on her? I know, that he does in the end, but was it his decision? Not really. Shallan, once again, coerced him into it by practically begging for help. 45 minutes ago, Furry-And-Lovable-Grover said: My wife and I were setup by a married couple friend of ours. Setting up a date for a friend and putting them in a causal betrothal is completely different. The causal betrothal might have not been binding legally, but it still is very different in importance from a blind date. 45 minutes ago, Furry-And-Lovable-Grover said: If he wasn't attracted to her, why bring her books or dinner? If he wasn't into her, why go through with the marriage? I really, really think that he likes her and is sexually attracted to her (like to many girls before), but not romatically. Like you said, obligation is a huge thing for Adolin and he feels like he is obligated to finally make this work. The causal betrothal might seem to be always breakable for us, but it isn't for Adolin. He doesn't want to disappoint his family, so he can't really break it off. Which is why he tries to use Shallan/Veil's attraction to Kaladin as an out. If they'd have broken off their betrothal right then and there, he could have simply said, "Well, she likes Kaladin more. It isn't my fault!" Another thing, I know there is all this low self-esteem stuff, that I personally don't really buy, but if he truly were in love with Shallan... Wouldn't he fight for her and not just give her up, especially after searching so long for the right one? Wouldn't he get angry (internally not externally) at seeing Shallan leering at Kaladin? He is a bit crestfallen, but he doesn't even seem that bothered by it. Except maybe, that he probably won't fulfull his obligation now. Important edit: Also, these "books" were investigation reports for the murder that happened, though was thoughtful in bringing her books about politics where seemed to be lacking knowledge, and he only brought dinner, because Palona told him, that Shallan hadn't eaten for a long time. Sounds like true attentiveness towards his betrothed. Edited January 11, 2018 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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