[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Humming said:

The more I re-read Part 5, the more confused I am. 

Shallan is not healed, it's her real being, definitely. This scene is pointless if she just repairs the fracture or begins to repair it by pushing her personas again to the bottom of her mind. Why spend countless ocassions in the book hinting that she's just a facade built to keep up with the environment she got it and to avoid being hurt (and to hurt) again if you are going to throw all that development into a rushed wedding.

You just gotta just give into the Shalladin! Not even kidding though, once I came around to Shalladin being the end goal, all of my issues around this romantic plot went away. It's fake and rushed, because it actually is a fake and rushed (bad) decision for the character. But once I gave in, I could then appreciate these pretty adorbs little moments like the below. Not only do we have a bubbly enthusiastic Shallan, but also a mention of this delightful contrast that Brandon (through Wit and Shallan) so loves...

Quote

A moment later, the building itself flashed—a ring of Stormlight running around it, like the afterimage of a firebrand being waved in the dark. Then Kaladin and Shallan emerged from the doorway.

“It worked!” Shallan said as she bounced out, bubbling over with eagerness. In contrast, Kaladin stepped out with a firm gait.

OB, Ch. 58, Burdens 

Contrast quotes:

Quote

“Human taste is as varied as human fingerprints,” Wit said. “Nobody will like everything, everybody dislikes something, someone loves that thing you hate—but at least being hated is better than nothing. To risk metaphor, a grand painting is often about contrast: brightest brights, darkest darks. Not grey mush. That a thing is hated is not proof that it’s great art, but the lack of hatred is certainly proof that it is not.”

OB, Epilogue, Great Art

Quote

“Be careful,” she said, hopping over a fallen log. “That was almost like a smile—and earlier this morning, I could swear that you were cheerful. Well, mildly content. Anyway, if you start to be in a better mood, it will destroy the whole variety of this trip.”

“Variety?” he asked.

“Yes. If we’re both pleasant, there’s no artistry to it. You see, great art is a matter of contrast. Some lights and some darks. The happy, smiling, radiant lady and the dark, brooding, malodorous bridgeman.”

“That—” He stopped. “Malodorous?”

“A great figure painting,” she said, “shows the hero with inherent contrast—strong, yet hinting at vulnerability, so that the viewer can relate to him. Your little problem would make for a dynamic contrast.”

“How would you even convey that in a painting?” Kaladin said, frowning. “Besides, I’m not malodorous.”

“Oh, so you’re getting better? Yay!”

He looked at her, dumbfounded.

“Confusion,” she said. “I will graciously take that as a sign that you’re amazed that I can be so humorous at such an early hour.” She leaned in conspiratorially, whispering. “I’m really not very witty. You just happen to be stupid, so it seems that way. Contrast, remember?”

WoR, Ch. 70, From a Nightmare 

 

[Humming]

@Dreamstorm I hope that all of that development is a Chekhov's gun and not wasted pages for some cheap drama. 

[Vissy]

I've been browsing other Stormlight communities, like the one on Reddit (and even reviews of Oathbringer) and it's kind of disappointing that nobody else has seen any of what we've talked about here. Most commenters I've seen are either praising the resolution of the book to the heavens or disappointed with it entirely, due to being boring in the middle section.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Vissy

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Most commenters I've seen are either praising the resolution of the book to the heavens or disappointed with it entirely, due to being boring in the middle section.

Its hype and being overly critical. Internet opinions tend so sway to the extremes. Acknowledging faults in a book (or any other medium for that matter), but also acknowledging the very good parts, is something many aren't doing on the internet. Whether it is because of getting arbitrary points (ie karma on reddit or rep on the shard) or just to create drama. 

[Humming]

11 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I've been browsing other Stormlight communities, like the one on Reddit (and even reviews of Oathbringer) and it's kind of disappointing that nobody else has seen any of what we've talked about here. Most commenters I've seen are either praising the resolution of the book to the heavens or disappointed with it entirely, due to being boring in the middle section.

The books is recent, I think tht with the hype still flowing, the good parts (ie: Dalinar's Ascension) make up for the bad parts like the wedding.

Seriously, that part was a total letdown, not because of ships but how it was handled.

[analyticaposteriori]

15 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I've been browsing other Stormlight communities, like the one on Reddit (and even reviews of Oathbringer) and it's kind of disappointing that nobody else has seen any of what we've talked about here. Most commenters I've seen are either praising the resolution of the book to the heavens or disappointed with it entirely, due to being boring in the middle section.

Well, reddit is reddit - that place is more conformist than a communist party convention - once somebody gets the ball rolling for one side the other will be crushed.

Most people in general don't really delve beyond the surface in their reading (I think it's safe to say that many of us here sometimes avoid it too) and that's the problem here since much of Shalladin hides in indirect literary devices while pretty much everything Shadolin is spelled out for you directly in thoughts these two have of one another or in their direct interactions.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

I've been browsing other Stormlight communities, like the one on Reddit (and even reviews of Oathbringer) and it's kind of disappointing that nobody else has seen any of what we've talked about here. Most commenters I've seen are either praising the resolution of the book to the heavens or disappointed with it entirely, due to being boring in the middle section.

There are a handful of decent, well-written, well-thought of critics of OB onto Amazon and Goodread, if you are interested. The book, on average, is still getting stellar rates, but if you read through the critics, you find most people found the book disappointing on one side or another: even those who still gave it 4-5 stars. Now, this nowhere is a detailed comment as I did not make statistic, but the most common critics I have seen were with respect to the pacing, Shallan's character, characters in general, too many viewpoints from minor characters those readers didn't care about. I think I read commentaries with respect to the wedding, but this thread is pretty unique. I haven't seen many people thinking the love triangle is not over.

Some people have also critic the book on Reddit as well, but those critics tend to be drowned within the rest. Negative comments are also often downvoted unjustly so it makes people wary of writing them.

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Its hype and being overly critical. Internet opinions tend so sway to the extremes. Acknowledging faults in a book (or any other medium for that matter), but also acknowledging the very good parts, is something many aren't doing on the internet. Whether it is because of getting arbitrary points (ie karma on reddit or rep on the shard) or just to create drama. 

People are not doing it because people have no channels to safety do it. In this thread, you have people who think alike and are happy to discuss the one element they are disappointed the most about. There are no equivalent thread for the other aspects of the story some of us find lacking. Hence, there is literally no place where it is safe to discuss what some of us are perceiving as either disappointment or weaknesses into the book. There aren't enough people willing to take the plunge and publicly state what they feel is not working in the book: there are very few people to state Brandon may have written a disappointing book, even if there are people who think it is the case.

[Vissy]

Well I think this was certainly a disappointing book, certainly understandable because of being the middle book, but there were too many plot threads left hanging in my opinion. Only Dalinar received a kind of closure. 

[Kaleid]

I'm conflicted.

 

Upon reading the book, I was happy for adolin that he "got the girl", because I really like the character. And besides, Kal already got the powers its not fair if he gets the girl too.

 

However, reading the summary of this thread has convinced me that the book is pointing towards Shalladin rather than Shadolin.

 

Such a shame. Unless it makes Adolin go full Anakin and join Odium. Maybe coupled in with him learning what really happened to his mum.

 

If that's what we're building to, and if Brandon Sanderson can do it right (and if anyone can, he can), then I'll be happy

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

Well I think this was certainly a disappointing book, certainly understandable because of being the middle book, but there were too many plot threads left hanging in my opinion. Only Dalinar received a kind of closure. 

I don't understand why it is acceptable for the middle book to be disappointing. The middle book can be darker, end badly, have less resolution and closure, but there are no excuses for several weaknesses some readers have noted into the narrative.

For instance, it does not matter if Shallan's character arc got closure or not, what matters if was it an interesting character arc to read? If not, then why? It does not matter if Kaladin did not say his fourth oath, what matters is was his chapters engaging and interesting to read or not? It does not matter if Adolin is not punished, what matters is his character coherent from beginning to end and is he getting development to make him appear less than perfect? Are we reading ending WoR with Sadeas's murder was the right choice or the wrong approach? It does not matter whatever Dalinar does, was reading his chapters actually interesting or were they a drag?

The middle book doesn't have to be disappointing nor is it OK for a book to be disappointing because there are two more to close the saga. Books are read for enjoyment, for pleasure, for escapism, for fun. Was Oathbringer a satisfying book? Not really because it didn't really brought to the table the narrative elements which would have make it satisfying, it also isn't coherent enough from start to end, it does not flow as nicely as the previous books, it drags too often and it has too many minor viewpoints which clogs the narrative. The characters arcs it had to propose weren't, for the most part, engaging and a lot was badly explored or superficial.

I say there are no reason which makes a disappointing book acceptable: if it is disappointing, then it is disappointing, be it the middle, the first or the last book.

[Humming]

By the way, in the Kaladin album by The Black Piper there's a bonus song called 'Shallan's lullaby' 

[Ailvara]

2 hours ago, Kaleid said:

I'm conflicted.

Upon reading the book, I was happy for adolin that he "got the girl", because I really like the character. And besides, Kal already got the powers its not fair if he gets the girl too.

However, reading the summary of this thread has convinced me that the book is pointing towards Shalladin rather than Shadolin.

Such a shame. Unless it makes Adolin go full Anakin and join Odium. Maybe coupled in with him learning what really happened to his mum.

If that's what we're building to, and if Brandon Sanderson can do it right (and if anyone can, he can), then I'll be happy

I'm so glad it convinced you. Too many people just drop that it didn't (which is fine) and never explain why (which isn't so cool).

My initial reasoning was exactly the opposite. Adolin has everything that a human being can ask for, at least all he can be given without doing much on his own - looks, position, family, wealth, talent... He's the most privileged of the privileged (and I'm not usually sensitive about this). Everything Kaladin has is his own doing. He deserves some storming luck for a change.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Ailvara

[GoddessIMHO]

5 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Most people in general don't really delve beyond the surface in their reading (I think it's safe to say that many of us here sometimes avoid it too) and that's the problem here since much of Shalladin hides in indirect literary devices while pretty much everything Shadolin is spelled out for you directly in thoughts these two have of one another or in their direct interactions.

And here's my argument.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Over analysis to provide proof while denying what is stated outright MAY point to a deeper truth but I don't think it does here. Bottom line, most of us must just agree to disagree when this sort of debate winds down. Only the next book will tell.

As for OB being a disappointing book I disagree.  There were parts I thought dragged  (Shadesmar was too long ) but overall the book kept me interested and wanting more.

[Kaleid]

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I'm so glad it convinced you. Too many people just drop that it didn't (which is fine) and never explain why (which isn't so cool).

My initial reasoning was exactly the opposite. Adolin has everything that a human being can ask for, at least all he can be given without doing much on his own - looks, position, family, wealth, talent... He's the most privileged of the privileged (and I'm not usually sensitive about this). Everything Kaladin has is his own doing. He deserves some storming luck for a change.

 

We really do seem to be coming at this from different angles.

 

I usually AM sensitive to privilege - especially when it's coupled with the arrogance that so often comes with being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

 

The fact that Adolin, well, isn't an cremhole, despite his privilege is probably a reason I like him so much.

 

Incidentally, the fact that he's prolly the best duelist roshar has right now means that he could possibly be a really frickin good option for Odium to take as a champion should he so desire. And if Odium is still so inclined (which I'm not convinced he is anymore)

[wotbibliophile]

Hi

I've been lurking for a long time.

Here is how I see it.

In WOR I thought Shal Ado was cute but I preferred Shal Kal. My big problem with Shal Ado was that Shallan was not honest with Adolin. In the beginning of OB when Shal thinks "maybe I can explain" I thought oh man Shal Kal is over it's going to be Shal Ado. But Adolin cuts her off and she doesn't explain anything she makes Radiant instead.

There were two things that Shal could have said

1. Vague: I have killed before and holding the shardblade causes me pain I just can't practice right now

2. Specific: I killed my mother. I hate my shardblade and want nothing to do with it. It hurts.

 

So with the vague option I would have been meh. With the specific option I would have thought that Shal Ado was it and Shal Kal was wishful thinking. By the end of OB Shallan is still not honest with Adolin and I don't think she has any plans to be. She's a liar that's what she does best that's what she is comfortable with. She plans to tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods but not until after they are married. This to me is manipulative. She is maneuvering Adolin to marry her she is using him. I really dislike this. She seems to think Adolin will not care about her connection with the Ghostbloods (I think she's probably right) but if so why didn't she tell him before marrying him. Maybe because he would object to her close connection with a group that has tried repeatedly to assassinate his cousin Jasnah and Shallan herself and overall kills innocent bystanders.  I got the impression Shal Ado were spending every moment together leading up to the wedding. There was time and privacy for Shallan to be honest with Adolin. She's not.

More important than the Ghostbloods is the fact that Shallan has killed both her parents and she had a horrible childhood. (Adolin also had a horrible childhood though he may not see it that way and I don't think Shallan knows this and I don't think she is curious. What do they even talk about???) She has no intention to tell Adolin this. This is again manipulative. Even if Adolin's opinion of Shallan does not change because she's connected to the Ghostbloods his opinion of her would have to change after learning she killed both her parents and the circumstances around that (unless he is brain dead). We know Shallan hates herself. She calls herself a monster and worthless. She says she doesn't matter. With all that she probably thinks Adolin would think less of her if he knew her history. So she doesn't tell him or plan to tell him, but she does manipulate him into marrying her. She is using him.

 

My one big objection to Shal Ado was that Shal is not honest with Ado. This is not resolved and yet they are married and apparently most readers are happy with the two of them together and believe they will solve any problems that they have in the future. *I am now banging my head against the wall* 

On top of all this I think Shallan is insane. I thought she was sane in WOK and WOR but OB convinced me she is insane. I do not believe she is mentally competent to agree to marriage.

 

Short answer I was really disgusted with the rushed ending of OB.

[Humming]

@wotbibliophile First of all welcome!

Is your nick a reference to Wheel of Time? It's my favorite series!

12 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

In WOR I thought Shal Ado was cute but I preferred Shal Kal. My big problem with Shal Ado was that Shallan was not honest with Adolin.

I found the same problem. I like Adolin and Shallan characters, and their relationship was interesting and enjoyable at first. But as the story advanced, Shallan was progressively building a fachade to fit with Adolin. She clung to him and to what he represented.

On the other hand, with Kaladin things started funnily but it developed into something more than 2 hilarious interactions. The scene in the chasms was a milestone for him, he thinks about it several times in his point of view chapters.

Shallan kept herself attached to Adolin, not being honest with him as you said and pretending to be someone else. To be sane. I found this unfair to Adolin's character, who really makes the effort to push things correctly and trying not to mess it up like with the other girls. He is honest to the point of offering himself to step aside and let Shallan (who he truly loves) be happy with Kaladin.

 

31 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

My one big objection to Shal Ado was that Shal is not honest with Ado. This is not resolved and yet they are married and apparently most readers are happy with the two of them together and believe they will solve any problems that they have in the future. *I am now banging my head against the wall* 

On top of all this I think Shallan is insane. I thought she was sane in WOK and WOR but OB convinced me she is insane. I do not believe she is mentally competent to agree to marriage.

 

Short answer I was really disgusted with the rushed ending of OB.

The marriage as I said in other post was underwhelming in all aspects. It came out of nowhere with a barely sane Shallan willing to do it right now to prove that she loves Alodin and not Kal. To be herself? Well, the famous scene in which they 2 exchange that Twilight-esque interactions (-You are beautiful. -Only because you're here.Without you, I fade.) seems to me that could hint towards that what was long discussed. That Shallan is just another persona, a mask like Veil and Radiant, with some traits of realShallan, but incomplete. And without Adolin, the reason why that mask prevails, it would fall apart and become secondary like Radiant and Veil (Veil, the only persona who showed 'flaring passion' like realShallan would). 

After all, maskShallan is a princess, someone who accepted that her marriage would be for political benefits above everything else. Adolin not only fullfils this (I don't mean that Shallan is using him for political influence, just stating a fact), he also is the one who can keep maskShallan alive, as fuel added to a bonfire that was fading.

 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Humming said:

He is honest to the point of offering himself to step aside and let Shallan (who he truly loves) be happy with Kaladin.

I'm really not sure about that... Love is a word, that is so easily thrown around, but when you look at the viewpoints that Adolin has... I know, that one can interpret it differently, but I find it showing how... few thoughts Adolin really spends on Shallan. Shallan's viewpoints give the impression, that he is really thoughtful about her and all, but Shallan normally sees what she wants to see.

@Dreamstorm wrote a great post about that.

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

Hi - A long, varied post because such excellent activity to finish out the year!

10 hours ago, maxal said:

I haven't seen many people thinking the love triangle is not over.

I totally agree with what I've seen online (though I don't read reddit because I find is horrible to navigate due to that upvote/downvote thing which means things aren't chronological ), but oddly everyone who I know in real life who has read the books (these are people who are not involved in fan communities) thinks the romantic arc is in mid-swing and eventually the choice will be Kaladin.  We're not dealing with a huge sample size here, but these were people I purposely didn't influence (given my disappointment in the arc so I was looking for independent viewpoints) who came down this way.  

7 hours ago, maxal said:

It does not matter if Adolin is not punished, what matters is his character coherent from beginning to end and is he getting development to make him appear less than perfect?

I'm sure you've elaborated on this before, but what did you see in OB which was inconsistent with Adolin's character in the prior books?  I definitely agree with you on the lack of development point.  In general, I think all of Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin stagnated (or regressed) in this book, and I think that was intentional as their "growth" will occur in later books.  If that growth never happens, I will be disappointed, but since I generally enjoyed the story we did see (even if it did lack character growth), I am happy with OB.  Of course, both Shallan and Kaladin got plenty of page time (Shallan especially), and Adolin didn't, so that would be disappointing for an Adolin fan.  I also think that Shallan and Kaladin had increased depth added to their characters even if no concrete growth occurred, whereas Adolin didn't really (in my opinion), so that is another thing to be disappointed about.  But I'm curious to hear what inconsistencies you see!

9 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I'm so glad it convinced you. Too many people just drop that it didn't (which is fine) and never explain why (which isn't so cool).

I feel like people tend to fall into three groups: (i) likes Shadolin (or Adolin) so are happy with the ending of OB (one side of this is dislikes Shalladin, so therefore likes Shadolin better), (ii) does not want to see any more romance in the books than absolutely necessary, so therefore are happy with the ending of OB so any possible future romantic development is eliminated (this one actually seems the most aggressive on this board) and (iii) maybe emotionally feels either (i) or (ii) or even pro-Shalladin but doesn't trust/believe in the literary foreshadowing.  I think with (iii) it doesn't matter how much you put in front of someone, but until the overt storyline shows Shallan and Kaladin in an explicit relationship, no amount of evidence will matter.  For (i) and (ii), I do feel like some of the hostility or lack of desire to engage is because those groups do not want to see any evidence which goes against their strong feelings.  So it's hard to get an explanation with that dynamic!

8 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

And here's my argument.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Over analysis to provide proof while denying what is stated outright MAY point to a deeper truth but I don't think it does here. Bottom line, most of us must just agree to disagree when this sort of debate winds down. Only the next book will tell.

As for OB being a disappointing book I disagree.  There were parts I thought dragged  (Shadesmar was too long ) but overall the book kept me interested and wanting more.

I so agree with your second point; I'm on a second full read (after a full reread of WoK and WoR post-OB), and I am loving OB on redo more than WoR!  There's so much to dig into.  We do get a lot of info dumping to resolve some of the mysteries, but much, much more is teased and left hanging for future resolution.  I do trust that there will be future resolution, so I don't see this as a bad thing.  Other may vary on this!

I will (as you know!) object to your cigar is just a cigar analogy.  I think it's one thing to stretch to try and find evidence to support a position.  (We've all been there.)  But here, it's just below the surface, and I feel like it smacks you in the face upon a reread.  So I would say... cigar paper covering a firework is not a cigar; it's a firework which will explode in your face if you try to light it   Since this is my favorite exercise... passages which jump out to me upon a reread (currently towards the beginning of part 3.)

First, just a note about how much Kaladin and Shallan interact in Part 2 which is not shown - flight to Thaylen City (that one is the most obvious), flying to the surrounding mountains to sketch Urithiru (per Shallan's sketch which has Kaladin in it), mentions by Shallan of conversations she had with Kaladin (flying to TC, how many people he could bring to Kholinar), mentions by Kaladin of conversations he had with Shallan (hilariously his "pointed suggestion" that she not bring Gaz to Kholinar, lol.)  There's a striking contrast between the one scene in part 2 we see of Shallan and Kaladin together (where she draws him after his spat with Jasnah) and the little hints we get that a lot more interaction occurred.  Once we see them interacting in Kholinar, there's a certain level of familiarity which follows from this part 2 interaction.  Before OB, their only one-on-one interaction was the chasm scenes (which was interaction forced by circumstance), so the amount of interaction afterwards is a definite contrast.  In particular, why did Kaladin ask Shallan to go to TC?  She says (to Elhokar) it's because she has stormlight and could survive a fall, but so does Renarin and he's technically one of Kaladin's men.  Renarin seems like the much more logical choice.

Second, below is from the flight to Kholinar.  Just look at this independently... which boy is Shallan flirting with here??

Quote

“We’re close to Kholinar,” Kaladin said. “Which is good, as we’re getting near the back edge of the storm, and I’ll soon lose access to its Stormlight.”

“What I feel like I’m about to lose,” Shallan said, looking down, “is my shoes.”

“Shoes?” Adolin said. “I lost my lunch back there.”

“I can’t help imagining something sliding off and dropping into it,” Shallan whispered. “Vanishing. Gone forever.” She glanced at Kaladin. “No wisecracks about missing boots?”

“I couldn’t think of anything funny.” He hesitated. “Though that hasn’t ever stopped you.”

Shallan grinned. “Have you ever considered, bridgeman, that bad art does more for the world than good art? Artists spend more of their lives making bad practice pieces than they do masterworks, particularly at the start. And even when an artist becomes a master, some pieces don’t work out. Still others are somehow just wrong until the last stroke.

“You learn more from bad art than you do from good art, as your mistakes are more important than your successes. Plus, good art usually evokes the same emotions in people—most good art is the same kind of good. But bad pieces can each be bad in their own unique way. So I’m glad we have bad art, and I’m sure the Almighty agrees.”

“All this,” Adolin said, amused, “to justify your sense of humor, Shallan?”

“My sense of humor? No, I’m merely trying to justify the creation of Captain Kaladin.”

OB, Ch. 60, Winds and Oaths

Third, Shallan's justification of making Kaladin hideous for their entrance to Kholinar is interesting.  She makes Adolin a handsome older man (see Kaladin's impression below - if we needed any Kadolin evidence on Kaladin's side, this is a rather flattering description ) and then tells Kaladin she had to make him grotesque since he "has a way of sticking in people's heads", hmmmmmm.

Quote

Shallan wrapped Adolin in Light. He resolved into a sturdy, handsome man in his sixties, with dark brown skin, white hair, and a lean figure. His clothing was no longer ornate, but in good repair. He looked like the kind of old rogue you’d find in a pub, with handy tales about the brilliant things he’d done in his youth. The kind of man that made women think they preferred older men, when in reality they just preferred him.

OB, Ch. 61, Nightmare Made Manifest

Quote

“Almighty above,” Kaladin said, poking at the scars and bulges on his face, some with open sores. Fake teeth jutted from his mouth, and one eye was higher in his head than the other. His hair grew out in patches, and his nose was tiny. “What did you do to me, woman?”

“I’ve recently learned,” Shallan said, “that a good disguise can be memorable, so long as it makes you memorable for the wrong reason. You, Captain, have a way of sticking in people’s heads, and I worried you would do so no matter what face you wore. So I enveloped it with something even more memorable.”

OB, Ch. 61, Nightmare Made Manifest

Anyways, I know you're solidly in group (iii) that I set out above (won't be convinced until Shallan and Kaladin are explicitly together) so we can definitely agree to disagree, but while I absolutely agree that in WoR and OB part 1 there was a love story between Adolin and Shallan with Kaladin occasionally inserted, after that, to me it is reading like a love story between Kaladin and Shallan with Adolin occasionally inserted.  My current thinking is that is why the ending felt so jarring; it's not like we had two equal romances going on.  We had one developing romance (not like it was perfect, I agree the "I wish I could hide my feelings" scene was bad) and one romance which stopped developing a quarter of the way through the book (even the "big" Shallan/Adolin scene after part one, their talk on Honor's Path, is interrupted by Kaladin.)  So, a very, very long way of saying that even absent the literary foreshadowing, I don't see a cigar.  I saw a cigar in WoR.  I saw a cigar in the preview chapters.  But after that, it disintegrated.

4 hours ago, Humming said:

I found this unfair to Adolin's character, who really makes the effort to push things correctly and trying not to mess it up like with the other girls. He is honest to the point of offering himself to step aside and let Shallan (who he truly loves) be happy with Kaladin.

As @SLNC notes (thank for the shoutout!), I have come to believe Adolin doesn't have that strong of feelings for Shallan.  Or if he does, Brandon has gone out of his way to make it seem like he doesn't in Adolin's PoVs.  So I see Shalladin as actually the pro-Adolin ship.  I really like Adolin, and I'm hoping he gets some better development and has some emotional struggles which he emerges from all the stronger.  (I think there is some evidence for Dark Adolin, but that wouldn't be my preferred path.)  And as part of this, since I am an incurable romantic in literature, I really want Adolin to have a romance that rocks his world and makes him feel strong emotions.  We know this is possible for Brandon to show even for secondary characters (look at all of the strong romantic emotions in Mistborn Era 1 outside of Vin/Elend), and I want to see him feel those things!  Navani has drastically less viewpoints than Adolin, and in her PoVs, we can feel her emotions for Dalinar.  (Her "Justice" chapter in WoR is heartbreaking and then exhilarating.)  I want Adolin to get that treatment, and right now, the romance with Shallan is just not giving that to him.

[Humming]

@Dreamstorm Wow, I could read your analysis forever, nice post.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Humming

[maxal]

10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I totally agree with what I've seen online (though I don't read reddit because I find is horrible to navigate due to that upvote/downvote thing which means things aren't chronological ), but oddly everyone who I know in real life who has read the books (these are people who are not involved in fan communities) thinks the romantic arc is in mid-swing and eventually the choice will be Kaladin.  We're not dealing with a huge sample size here, but these were people I purposely didn't influence (given my disappointment in the arc so I was looking for independent viewpoints) who came down this way.  

Huh, you can ask Reddit to sort posts by date of publication, but I do agree it isn't the best of medium. The format doesn't allow for great discussions and unpopular posts will get downvoted which discourages some people from posting on this media. Some people have criticize the book though, but I agree it demands courage to find those posts.

The people I am most familiar with were also disappointed with the book, though I didn't feel the romance was their main issue. I think it mostly was characters, on average, which were criticized. I think it is difficult to evaluate the percentage of readers having been disappointed over one aspect of the book or another, but I would argue there are critics whereas I do not recall seeing many of those back when WoR was released.

10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm sure you've elaborated on this before, but what did you see in OB which was inconsistent with Adolin's character in the prior books?  I definitely agree with you on the lack of development point.  In general, I think all of Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin stagnated (or regressed) in this book, and I think that was intentional as their "growth" will occur in later books.  If that growth never happens, I will be disappointed, but since I generally enjoyed the story we did see (even if it did lack character growth), I am happy with OB.  Of course, both Shallan and Kaladin got plenty of page time (Shallan especially), and Adolin didn't, so that would be disappointing for an Adolin fan.  I also think that Shallan and Kaladin had increased depth added to their characters even if no concrete growth occurred, whereas Adolin didn't really (in my opinion), so that is another thing to be disappointed about.  But I'm curious to hear what inconsistencies you see!

Well, with my previous commentary, I did not mean incoherent from the previous books, but incoherent within the same book. What I meant by it is we first see Adolin being very troubled by having murdered Sadeas, he is very emotive, stressed out, disturbed, then as we move into part 1, those aspects of the character disappear. We know the Adolin viewpoints, in part 1, were added after the beta read and I think it shows: they clash with the rest of the narrative. They introduce reactions into the character, but there is no follow-up. As I was reading part 1, I first was really excited because I felt the story was panning out to be awesome, but I progressively lost my enthusiasm as all Adolin related character aspects introduced early on were dropped. My feeling were the character was sinking into the background and I felt the story broke the continuity in terms of elements having already been introduced. Then, the character disappears for about 500 pages and when he comes back, he is not the same. He is cheery, he no longer is stressed out and he is used as comical relief. This is what I felt created an incoherent story arc.

In terms of incoherence with previous book, it could be argued the lack of follow-up on why Adolin ruins his relationship is one. Another one would be how his character is said to have become a soldier only out of need, not out of wanting, whereas OB draws a very different portray.

As an Adolin fan, seeing Adolin getting less page time in OB than in WoK was... painful. It made me lost faith Brandon will give the character the room he needs to grow in a satisfying manner. He got so little of it and Brandon is so set on whom gets page time, I see no decent future for his character. I would however state Adolin is not the only reason I was disappointed within this book, but had the author came up with a stronger narrative for him, I would have been more willing to close my eyes onto other story elements I felt did not work out as well as intended.

[DeployParachute]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Well, with my previous commentary, I did not mean incoherent from the previous books, but incoherent within the same book. What I meant by it is we first see Adolin being very troubled by having murdered Sadeas, he is very emotive, stressed out, disturbed, then as we move into part 1, those aspects of the character disappear. We know the Adolin viewpoints, in part 1, were added after the beta read and I think it shows: they clash with the rest of the narrative. They introduce reactions into the character, but there is no follow-up. As I was reading part 1, I first was really excited because I felt the story was panning out to be awesome, but I progressively lost my enthusiasm as all Adolin related character aspects introduced early on were dropped. My feeling were the character was sinking into the background and I felt the story broke the continuity in terms of elements having already been introduced. Then, the character disappears for about 500 pages and when he comes back, he is not the same. He is cheery, he no longer is stressed out and he is used as comical relief. This is what I felt created an incoherent story arc.

In terms of incoherence with previous book, it could be argued the lack of follow-up on why Adolin ruins his relationship is one. Another one would be how his character is said to have become a soldier only out of need, not out of wanting, whereas OB draws a very different portray.

As an Adolin fan, seeing Adolin getting less page time in OB than in WoK was... painful. It made me lost faith Brandon will give the character the room he needs to grow in a satisfying manner. He got so little of it and Brandon is so set on whom gets page time, I see no decent future for his character. I would however state Adolin is not the only reason I was disappointed within this book, but had the author came up with a stronger narrative for him, I would have been more willing to close my eyes onto other story elements I felt did not work out as well as intended.

Agreed with a lot of this. I felt disappointed that a lot of the supposed flaws we were being told about over the previous books regarding Adolin (of which there really aren't many to begin with) seemed to never get any screen time, they were never used to explore the character more deeply, or even make him interesting to read. 

If Adolin has trouble keeping women, well gee, Brandon, I sure would have liked to have seen how something like that would have impacted his budding relationship with Shallan. Isn't that one of the biggest rules of character development? Don't tell me something about a character and expect me to take your word for it. SHOW ME. Show me how this thing impacts the character in their choices, actions, conversations, interactions! I would have appreciated the Shallan and Adolin romance and ending a lot more if either of them had been made to, I don't know, work for it?

Same goes for his (supposed) anger issues. If Adolin can be a hot head, then why is he so chill about seeing the one woman he wants to actually be with (again supposedly) leering at a rival, or said rival leering at her. Couldn't we see him get at least a little mad? He doesn't have to act on it and go and punch Kaladin, but geez, at least let me know he is human by actually thinking about it.

I think you're right, that Adolin essentially fills whatever narrative need the author has for other characters. I just can't understand why so many people are in love with Adolin as a LITERARY CHARACTER after the end of OB. Especially after the promise and potential of him going into it was so wasted. If I knew him IRL, we'd be best buds, because who wouldn't? As a character in fiction, he is tepid, and boring to read. 

I'm probably a little more extreme in my view of him than you are, but well, a character who has so many connections to most of our main POVs, and even is the primary romantic partner for our female lead, then I sure as hell expect more character development and thought than what we got.

Edited December 31, 2017 by DeployParachute

[+ILuvHats]

I want to see Shallan burn.  I’m sorry, but it’s true.  In OB, I felt like her character arc was a big circle, and she just goes round and round, not making any progress.  I didn’t feel like that in WoR. She had a decent amount of development considering her screen time and reached an important milestone by the end.  But as everyone else on the forum has been pointing out, Shallan doesn’t go much of anywhere in OB.  We get all these developments like Wits advice and her growing instability, but at the end she decides to play it safe.  Sure, she decides to stop forming new personas, but that’s like a baby step.  Sanderson made it seem like some huge accomplishment, but i feel like it’s not huge enough to justify all the tension in Shallans POVs, which just happen to dissipate magically at the end.  Shallan gets a happy ending without having earned it in my opinion.  She’s still lying SOOO much though there are hints that she’ll work on her problems more with Adolin in the future.  Honestly, I want Shallans world to fall around her.  I want her  lies to disintegrate in her hands around her and have her true self revealed to the world.  I realize that she’s had a traumatic past, but in OB it feels like everything falls into place for Shallan and gets everything she wants.  In order to redeem her character I just want her nice little world to explode around her.  IMO, if Shallan is going to overcome her problems, she’ll first need to lose everything.  Since she’s not going to confront her inner struggle, something drastic will have to force herself to. 

Well, I’m done rambling.  Just to be clear, I don’t hate Shallan.  I just feel like she’ll need to really suffer in order to get past her obstacles.

[GoddessIMHO]

As much as I love the character of Adolin,  he is a secondary character.  We are not going to see as much from him as we do from Shallan and Kaladin.  The other part to remember is that this is Dalinar's book. He is the plot driver. 

The other characters have arcs and actions but they are bits of the overall Stormlight arc in OB while Dalinar's transformation from the Blackthorn to Unity is the point of the story. His marriage to Navani is more important in OB than the marriage of Adolin and Shallan. That is part of what makes him a heretic from Vorinism. His response to the murder of Sadeas is more important than Adolin's.  It allows Adolin to back off from being king and allows Shallan to propose Jasnah. His brutality as a soldier and failure to save Evi contrasts to Kaladin's breakdown when faced with having to choose who to save.

Anyway, I got carried away here.  it's a good thing the holidays are over and work will limit my forum fervor. 

 

 

[maxal]

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Agreed with a lot of this. I felt disappointed that a lot of the supposed flaws we were being told about over the previous books regarding Adolin (of which there really aren't many to begin with) seemed to never get any screen time, they were never used to explore the character more deeply, or even make him interesting to read. 

One of my gripes with OB is I do not understand why Brandon saw fit to retrograde Adolin to minor side character and to erase the built-up he had started with him. Narrative-wise speaking, it makes no sense: those books are more than large enough to give Adolin more room to grow. I cannot believe it is think the story is better when one of its most important viewpoint character is written out as being so bland and one-dimensional. Wouldn't it be better if Adolin got the layers he deserves and a bit more page time to have a real story arc? What prevents him from doing so? There 1300 pages into those books: there is time and place. Why make the decision which was made?

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

If Adolin has trouble keeping women, well gee, Brandon, I sure would have liked to have seen how something like that would have impacted his budding relationship with Shallan. Isn't that one of the biggest rules of character development? Don't tell me something about a character and expect me to take your word for it. SHOW ME. Show me how this thing impacts the character in their choices, actions, conversations, interactions! I would have appreciated the Shallan and Adolin romance and ending a lot more if either of them had been made to, I don't know, work for it?.

This is one problem. Adolin's character was built around his inability to form meaningful relationships, but once we reach OB, this becomes non-existent. Sure, there is this one conversation where Adolin genuinely admits his weakness, something he never does, and then it disappears. You cannot spend two books building up a character flaw only to let it vanish by using the old trope of "he hadn't found the right one yet". 

I also agree about the "show me". A lot of not shown when it comes to Adolin because my impressions are Brandon does not believe he needs to show it. The issue is it makes the character read as shallow and it doesn't help the romance. One of the aspect of it I have been being criticized is how some readers felt it wasn't meaningful enough. Had Adolin been more explored as a character, had his issues given significant enough page time, then his relationship with Shallan might have felt more natural and meaningful.

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Same goes for his (supposed) anger issues. If Adolin can be a hot head, then why is he so chill about seeing the one woman he wants to actually be with (again supposedly) leering at a rival, or said rival leering at her. Couldn't we see him get at least a little mad? He doesn't have to act on it and go and punch Kaladin, but geez, at least let me know he is human by actually thinking about it.

Actually, I disagree with this one. Adolin never had anger issues: some readers thought he did because of how he murdered Sadeas, but reality is he never really displayed real anger-related issues. Each time Adolin was angry, on screen, was because Sadeas was trying to harm his family. Each time he was justified. We never saw him being angry over nothing. Hence, I do think some readers read too much into it and thought this was a character flaw, but my personal thoughts are this was a misinterpretation of the narrative.

It wouldn't have been within Adolin's character to punch Kaladin. He's always backed down from relationship. He's always run away, so him stepping down was exactly the expected reaction. My issues with it as, just like most narrative, it was void of emotions. Had it have more exposure, with Adolin's viewpoint, more passion, more emotion, then the scene would have been heart-wrenching. Instead, it felt flat, like most of the book.

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

I think you're right, that Adolin essentially fills whatever narrative need the author has for other characters. I just can't understand why so many people are in love with Adolin as a LITERARY CHARACTER after the end of OB. Especially after the promise and potential of him going into it was so wasted. If I knew him IRL, we'd be best buds, because who wouldn't? As a character in fiction, he is tepid, and boring to read. 

I'm probably a little more extreme in my view of him than you are, but well, a character who has so many connections to most of our main POVs, and even is the primary romantic partner for our female lead, then I sure as hell expect more character development and thought than what we got.

I like Adolin's character because I used to think and I still think he has a lot of potential. He was into a very interesting situation, back in WoR, which allowed for many various narrative to happen. Unfortunately, the author killed all possibilities, preferring to use the most boring outcome which was to shove the character into the background. Still, Adolin retains some potential, his relationship with his father, with his mother, his "work harder" life coping mechanism, all of those could be used to write a very good emotion-filled narrative around Maya, but this will demand Brandon to take the plunge and give Adolin more than 20K words. 

A story will always be stronger when all of its characters are strong. Big epic fantasy books can also support more than three protagonists, especially since I feel we have gone around the circle a few times with them.

27 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

As much as I love the character of Adolin,  he is a secondary character.  We are not going to see as much from him as we do from Shallan and Kaladin.  The other part to remember is that this is Dalinar's book. He is the plot driver. 

The other characters have arcs and actions but they are bits of the overall Stormlight arc in OB while Dalinar's transformation from the Blackthorn to Unity is the point of the story. His marriage to Navani is more important in OB than the marriage of Adolin and Shallan. That is part of what makes him a heretic from Vorinism. His response to the murder of Sadeas is more important than Adolin's.  It allows Adolin to back off from being king and allows Shallan to propose Jasnah. His brutality as a soldier and failure to save Evi contrasts to Kaladin's breakdown when faced with having to choose who to save.

Anyway, I got carried away here.  it's a good thing the holidays are over and work will limit my forum fervor. 

I personally feel Brandon may be getting a prisoner of his book structure. Sure, this was the book where we learned of Dalinar's backstory and sure, it matched with his present day narrative, but did we need 100K words worth of it? Weren't those chapters a tad repetitive? Going in circles? 

My thoughts are Dalinar got too much page time for what his story really needed: sometimes more is not better. When you stretch a story over too many page time, it becomes diluted and it loses its impact. Dalinar's present day arc was too long, IMHO. And as much as, yes, Adolin is a secondary character, he remained a character having had a much page time as mighty Dalinar. There were no valid reasons for readers to expect him to get so little in OB, especially not considering how his story ended in WoR. 

I have seen Brandon use tension, climaxes, anticipation to create magic moments of readers intense satisfaction. With OB, I have seen him drop the ball, ignore his own climaxes/cliff-hanger and write one of the most disappointing follow-up arc on a given character I have ever read.

Also, while it may be Brandon considers Dalinar/Navani's wedding is the more important event, he forgot something VERY important: it was't the important one for his readers. It wasn't the wedding his readers wanted to read about. He forgot his readers, for the most part, didn't care nearly as much for the Dalinar/Navani ship as they cared for the love triangle. That's the thing, at some point, when you are an author, you have to acknowledge your readers may not like the story elements you wished they liked. Even if Brandon personally prefers writing Dalinar/Navani, it was no excuse to write such an under-whelming arc for the love triangle.

The readers having spent the last four years keeping this fandom alive through their discussions deserved better even if it wasn't within the "original planning".

Edited December 31, 2017 by maxal

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, maxal said:

Still, Adolin retains some potential, his relationship with his father, with his mother, his "work harder" life coping mechanism, all of those could be used to write a very good emotion-filled narrative around Maya, but this will demand Brandon to take the plunge and give Adolin more than 20K words. 

I have one big problem with the Maya storyline, if it continues like it is now. Once again, everything just falls to Adolin. I don't mind him becoming a Radiant, but shouldn't he have the same trials and tribulations, that our current Radiants had? Shouldn't he spend time to attract a spren? To fail in between, but learn from these failures? No, of course, he already has an Edgedancer Shardblade and, of course, he is already doing exactly the right things to revive it, because it is just his nature to be like that, without even knowing what to do really. It just feels way too easy for me.

Same with how he apparently conquers Shallan's heart. He doesn't even know what he's doing, but, of course, he is doing the right things. It is so boring. Even his self-doubts just seem to be something he has as a token character flaw, which he just needs to have to not be completely boring, but why does he even have them? Everything just works out for him! It makes no sense for him to have them.

I know I'm rambling, but it is just something, that angers me. Especially how everyone just seems to accept that. Adolin would be great to have as a friend, but as a literary character? He's just boring. Plain boring.

But enough rambling. I wish you all a happy new year.

Edited December 31, 2017 by SLNC