Harbour

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

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6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

He and Shallan will present an image of the perfect lighteyed couple - attractive, intelligent (up to a point), wealthy, accomplished (up to a point), and obviously committed. I believe they will believe this image themselves, but it will hide a deeper truth that neither of them is actually as committed as they pretend to be. 

And just like that we bring their marriage (completely optional from the greater story arc point of view) and brings it into focus as a part of Shallan's growth as a Radiant. Hiding deeper truths won't cut it for her, and if she believes the lie, either her or Pattern (or both) are going to get killed for it. Shallan was warned by Lyn: don't believe the lies you tell. She hasn't taken that warning to heart, and it's going to come back to haunt her.

I like how this scenario brings a thread that has no real meaning (who ends up with who) and ties it into the main story (Desolations, Radiants, end of the world). That makes me think it's more likely, as it allows all parts of the novel to contribute in multiple ways. Good thoughts, as usual. 

 

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17 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ok... so inspired @evanna's question I revived my prior scholarship (lol) and went through all of Adolin's viewpoints in OB to catalog when he thought about Shallan.  (Note I don't mention every time they interact and speak in a viewpoint, just when he has a thought about her.)  I include a note of two of my own in here about their interactions as presented by Adolin, and then a lot of "Kadolin" notes because as you will see - Adolin spends way more time thinking about, assisting and wanting to be around Kaladin than he does in relation to Shallan.  Honestly... going by Adolin's viewpoints, one would think he has stronger feelings for Kaladin!  Am I crazy?? 

I think this has less to do with any romantic intention between Adolin and Kaladin, but rather Adolin's comfort and familiarity with men vs. women.  Adolin knows how to have deep platonic relationships with fellow men.  He has spent the large majority of his life in the overwhelmingly male army, but has likely meaningfully interacted with very few women throughout his life (his mother died young, Dalinar kept Navani at a distance, Jasnah is not very emotionally expressive).  He knows quite well how to play the "brother in arms", and quickly makes friends with fellow soldiers.  The protective manner he takes around Kaladin when he is sliding into depression neatly mirrors the role he likely often takes with Renarin.  More than a romantic angle, I think Adolin has adopted Kaladin as a second brother at this point.

In contrast though, Adolin just does not know how to interact with women. His previous romantic relationships were short and shallow, and his current relationship with Shallan also seems emotionally shallow.  He likes the idea of being in a relationship with Shallan, finds her beautiful, and wants it to work, but seems to have absolutely no idea how to meaningfully interact/grow with her.

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12 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Adolin knows how to have deep platonic relationships with fellow men.

I don't know that this is true. If it were, why would Jakamav fight against him without so much as a warning? I thought that the whole point of showing Jakamav as a character was to present a friend of Adolin, and then show just how shallow that friendship is. The lesson I learned from that is that Adolin really doesn't have anyone he's close to besides his family (Renarin, Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar). 

The rest of it I agree with. He's certainly comfortable with soldiers and can do the brother-at-arms, like you say. I just think he's not making close connections with anyone, really, male or female.

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1 hour ago, Rainier said:

The lesson I learned from that is that Adolin really doesn't have anyone he's close to besides his family (Renarin, Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar). 

So after WOR we have an Adolin that went from being on the top of the social chain, best fighter, very powerful, popular, surrounded by friends and occasional girls, (never without girls) to being more lonely, alienated from his previous circle, not powerful enough, not really relevant at war.

No wonder he clings  actually tries to make the relationship work with Shallan (who stays betrothed to him and eventually marries him, despite being in a position of power in terms of relationship) and befriends Kaladin  (who has proven to be a loyal , and is quite magnetic).

Edited by Awesomness
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1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think this has less to do with any romantic intention between Adolin and Kaladin, but rather Adolin's comfort and familiarity with men vs. women.  Adolin knows how to have deep platonic relationships with fellow men.  He has spent the large majority of his life in the overwhelmingly male army, but has likely meaningfully interacted with very few women throughout his life (his mother died young, Dalinar kept Navani at a distance, Jasnah is not very emotionally expressive).  He knows quite well how to play the "brother in arms", and quickly makes friends with fellow soldiers.  The protective manner he takes around Kaladin when he is sliding into depression neatly mirrors the role he likely often takes with Renarin.  More than a romantic angle, I think Adolin has adopted Kaladin as a second brother at this point.

In contrast though, Adolin just does not know how to interact with women. His previous romantic relationships were short and shallow, and his current relationship with Shallan also seems emotionally shallow.  He likes the idea of being in a relationship with Shallan, finds her beautiful, and wants it to work, but seems to have absolutely no idea how to meaningfully interact/grow with her.

I should probably add this in my original post (where I list the Adolin viewpoints), but as much I would love, love, love for Kadolin to happen, I don't think we're supposed to think it will.  I agree Adolin a bit hero-worships and has a strong affection for Kaladin, but (sadly for me, lol) it's not supposed to be romantic.  He's likely more fascinated than anything, as Kaladin to him is the epitome of this brave new Radiant world.

The thing with his internal dialogue (or lack thereof) about Shallan is it doesn't read like he wants to meaningfully interact/grow with her.  We see a lot from her viewpoints that suggest he does (and this heavily colored how I perceived his feelings before), but this doesn't follow through in what we see from Adolin's perspective.  Just like the end when Shallan chooses Adolin, there are so many little ways, with only a sentence or two, that Brandon could show us Adolin is thinking about Shallan, noticing her, concerned about her.  Instead he chooses to show us mostly the opposite.  If Adolin was honestly really into her but just didn't know how to act, I would expect a lot more fumbling around; he would be trying really, really hard to connect and interact but it would be awkward because that's what happens when you experience new, intense emotions and don't know how to act on them.  Instead, he seems to be playing a role, and in fact we see explicitly that he doesn't believe the "romantic" line he feeds her before arriving in Celebrant.  He's been SO perfect in this relationship, but it's much easier to act perfectly when you don't have strong feelings to contend with inside yourself.  And the muted emotion when stepping aside makes sense - yeah it's a blow to his pride (it appears he's more concerned about since we aren't shown feelings of distress about losing Shallan) - he's not that emotionally invested, so it's easy to do so.

Just want to point out that I know we don't have many Adolin viewpoints, so there could be times he's internally incredibly focused on Shallan that would exhibit his intense feelings for her.  But we don't just happen to go into Adolin's head at random times.  We have an author (with a plan) who is deliberately showing us certain things (for Adolin, like for all the characters) in order to build a story.  Any pattern of behavior, especially when it is pretty consistent across of character, is then likely significant solely based on the fact that is what the author chose to show us.

6 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

No wonder he clings to Shallan (who stays betrothed to him and eventually marries hin, despite being in a position of power in terms of relationship) and Kaladin  (who has proven to be a loyal friend, and is quite magnetic).

ETA: I agree with your general premise, but I don't think he's clinging to Shallan.  In some way he does the opposite; he tried to break up with her and she wouldn't let him.  Even his concern about her feelings for Kaladin are couched in the manner of "well the guy is a demi-god so of course she's into him" rather than "I am in love this with woman and am going frantic at the idea I might lose her."  I know Shallan sees him as crazily into her, and he says these lines in her viewpoints that suggest that is true, but that just doesn't align with what we see from Adolin himself.

Edited by Dreamstorm
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27 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I don't know that this is true. If it were, why would Jakamav fight against him without so much as a warning? I thought that the whole point of showing Jakamav as a character was to present a friend of Adolin, and then show just how shallow that friendship is. The lesson I learned from that is that Adolin really doesn't have anyone he's close to besides his family (Renarin, Dalinar, Navani, Jasnah, Elhokar). 

The rest of it I agree with. He's certainly comfortable with soldiers and can do the brother-at-arms, like you say. I just think he's not making close connections with anyone, really, male or female.

That's true, it may be less of a commentary about Adolin's ability to form relationships than about the generally poisonous and dishonorable nature of the Highprince crowd though.  Many people get "betrayed" by friends in the drama of real life, and its not necessarily a mark against the wounded party that they couldn't anticipate it.

I'm a little surprised that plotline got dropped so abruptly, hopefully there's some sort of resolution eventually.  Jakamav never gave a hint of a reason why he went along with the plan, nothing came of the obviously corrupt judge who refused to call off the match etc. 

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22 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm a little surprised that plotline got dropped so abruptly, hopefully there's some sort of resolution eventually.  Jakamav never gave a hint of a reason why he went along with the plan, nothing came of the obviously corrupt judge who refused to call off the match etc. 

I thought it was explained: the shards. Jakamav was not a full Shardbearer, and this was his chance to get a Blade to go with his Plate. Simple greed and opportunity. Since he's not a major character, he really doesn't need to have his motivations explained, and now that he's served his purpose in the story (Adolin gets betrayed by so-called friends) there's no real reason to keep him around.

In general I agree with you. I would have liked to see him once or twice in TWoK to set up the betrayal, and I would have liked to see him maybe once early in OB to touch base on what happened to him afterwards.

35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

ETA: I agree with your general premise, but I don't think he's clinging to Shallan.

What does this mean? Estimated Time of Arrival is all I can think of and it doesn't make sense.

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35 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

ETA: I agree with your general premise, but I don't think he's clinging to Shallan.  In some way he does the opposite; he tried to break up with her and she wouldn't let him.  Even his concern about her feelings for Kaladin are couched in the manner of "well the guy is a demi-god so of course she's into him" rather than "I am in love this with woman and am going frantic at the idea I might lose her."  I know Shallan sees him as crazily into her, and he says these lines in her viewpoints that suggest that is true, but that just doesn't align with what we see from Adolin himself.

Yes, I agree that "cling" wasn't the right word. What I meant was that he persist on the relationship. I see this as relevant because we have some reason to believe he used to get bored in other relationships, or just didn't try very hard. With Shallan we see him trying to make it work.

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1 hour ago, Rainier said:

What does this mean? Estimated Time of Arrival is all I can think of and it doesn't make sense.

Edited to add.  I may have just made up using this as an acronym though!

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Yes, I agree that "cling" wasn't the right word. What I meant was that he persist on the relationship. I see this as relevant because we have some reason to believe he used to get bored in other relationships, or just didn't try very hard. With Shallan we see him trying to make it work.

I always got the sense that Adolin was the one who usually got dumped because he wasn't paying enough attention (such as Janala being dragged around on the strap mission) or was flirting with other girls (had to end things one girl after she got upset he went to lunch with Janala I think?)  He only broke it off with Danlan because she was saying nasty things about him, presumably about flirting with other girls.  Adolin at least seems to see it as him not being able to keep any girl as that's what he tells Kaladin (he can make them interested but can't keep them) and he tells Shallan he always manages to screw up relationships.  I agree the screwing up probably originates from him being bored and not trying, but he seems to be treating Shallan fairly similarly though perhaps she's putting up with it because she wants it to work out so badly.  I don't see anything from his viewpoints which shows a lot of effort on his part, though he isn't actively telling himself he's bored of her.  I don't know... I'm just not convinced he's actually changed his ways that much, even though I agree he wants a relationship to work out.  I just feel like if one of those other girls had not been bothered by how he acted he would have stayed with them too?  He wants to be in a relationship, but I don't get the sense (again, just from Adolin's viewpoints) that Shallan is all that special.  At least he's not identifying her as special in his internal monologue.  (Contrast that with how he thinks about Kaladin; there is a strong sense that he see Kaladin as very special.)

That all being said, putting up with someone's quirks (not getting upset they look at other women for instance - we see Shallan do this), is part of what makes two people work.  Also Shallan would have liked something like the strap cutting investigation, so she fits in better with things Adolin already liked to do and as such the copycat killer investigation is right up their alley.  So Adolin might be acting as he always had... and then it comes back to the same things we're all always saying - Shallan has shaped herself (consciously...) into someone who fits with him perfectly.  (I went in a circle here; overthinking!)

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16 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

At least he's not identifying her as special in his internal monologue.

Hm, the only thing that I could count to that would be, that he acknowledges, that she might me be most important woman in the world right now at the end of WoR, but again, heavy allusion to social hierarchy and it more seems like he is unsure about his place now.

16 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't see anything from his viewpoints which shows a lot of effort on his part, though he isn't actively telling himself he's bored of her.  I don't know... I'm just not convinced he's actually changed his ways that much, even though I agree he wants a relationship to work out.

Well, he did make an effort to actually spend time with her in Part 1 of Oathbringer, but after that?... Not that much anymore.

Edited by SLNC
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15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Hm, the only thing that I could count to that would be, that he acknowledges, that she might me be most important woman in the world right now at the end of WoR, but again, heavy allusion to social hierarchy and it more seems like he is unsure about his place now.

Yeah, important in the world, but like you said, that doesn't necessarily mean important to him...

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Well, he did make an effort to actually spend time with her in Part 1 of Oathbringer, but after that?... Not that much anymore.

Yeah, to teach her sword-fighting.  Which he is super passionate about.  It's great he wants to share that with her, but (like with Janala and the cut strap) this is still him including the woman he's courting in activities which he likes to do.

It honestly feels weird to me to be thinking about Adolin like this.  From Shallan's viewpoints, he comes across as so infatuated and attentive and interested in her and just the perfect boyfriend so that is what feels emotionally right.  The contrast from that to the picture you get when reading just his viewpoints in a row is jarring.

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Ohhhh, it's about duty for Adolin.  Adolin was always the dutiful son, and sticking with his betrothal was a case of duty.  Suddenly that scene at the end of Oathbreaker where Shallan encourages him to make his own decisions and not just follow his duty to his father/kingdom by becoming King takes on a whole new light. 

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Just now, Dreamstorm said:

Yeah, to teach her sword-fighting.  Which he is super passionate about.  It's great he wants to share that with her, but (like with Janala and the cut strap) this is still him including the woman he's courting in activities which he likes to do.

That is true. And it actually has disastrous consequences for Shallan... I was actually more thinking about the scene where they were eating together, though.

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

It honestly feels weird to me to be thinking about Adolin like this.  From Shallan's viewpoints, he comes across as so infatuated and attentive and interested in her and just the perfect boyfriend so that is what feels emotionally right.  The contrast from that to the picture you get when reading just his viewpoints in a row is jarring.

I know right! Its so strange...

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2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

It honestly feels weird to me to be thinking about Adolin like this.  From Shallan's viewpoints, he comes across as so infatuated and attentive and interested in her and just the perfect boyfriend so that is what feels emotionally right.  The contrast from that to the picture you get when reading just his viewpoints in a row is jarring.

This immediately brought to mind the Disney movie Frozen and how we are presented Hans from Anna's point of view as so perfectly that his eventual betrayal at the end of the movie leaves everyone feeling just as betrayed by the story as Anna is. Not that I'm suggesting Adolin has evil plans going, it's just a very good parallel and reminder that our viewpoint is unreliable.

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13 hours ago, Awesomness said:

With Shallan we see him trying to make it work.

But also not very hard.

He is just in luck, that Shallan herself has no idea of what she is looking for in a relationship (well, except wanting to "rip his clothes off" and feeling physically comfortable, which more or less reminds me of being friends with benefits), so she just goes with it. Plus, she has a really big lack of self-esteem (personaShallan, to be precise), which, for me, gives another reason, why she frantically didn't want the betrothal to fail and pretty much accepts many things, that Adolin's other courtships haven't. Shallan, like Kaladin, sees failure as a bad thing.

While Adolin and Shallan are trying to make an effort to be romantic (the cheesy lines in the meeting with Dalinar), they miserably fail - they just don't have the... connection for that, I'm afraid.

Edited by SLNC
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10 hours ago, Draigon said:

This immediately brought to mind the Disney movie Frozen and how we are presented Hans from Anna's point of view as so perfectly that his eventual betrayal at the end of the movie leaves everyone feeling just as betrayed by the story as Anna is.

Yes this kind of feeds to my point that Adolin is in a prime situation for us projecting onto him. We see a lot of his actions, but few of his motivations. That said, I don't think we are meant to think Adolin is "bad" in any way - more that his moral compass is heavily influenced by societal norms (as are most people's) rather than being something intrinsic to him (eg Lirin's moral compass seems to point to "good" regardless of the people around him). That means he will be more likely to change his moral stance on things when new information (eg the nature of Evi's death) comes to light. 

WoB is that he writes Adolin in a discovery way - that is, he doesn't always know exactly what he wants from Adolin until he writes the character. Obviously, Adolin is meant to be a side character, so we can't assume that this means his arc will be massive for the plot as a whole - but then Moash is a side character and his arc is obviously going to be important. My guess is that Adolin is a means to an end in some way - likely relating to Dalinar and Shallan progressing - perhaps Kaladin and Renarin as well - and this will result from his actions/death in some way. 

I agree with others that Adolin's thoughts about Shallan are much less soppy than his words. Honestly, that makes me like him better - indeed if he can stop the nauseating soppiness, I could even see them working better as a couple. My issue is that both Shallan and Adolin are almost preoccupied with appearance (her illusions and his need to be fashionable) so they will strive for the outer appearance of their relationship rather than look at the underlying structure which seems built out of teenage dreams and wishes. What happens when those dreams fail to materialise? Teenage dreams are hardly realistic after all.

We know that Adolin self-sabotages his relationships (subconsciously). I honestly wonder if he was "stepping aside" for Kaladin as part of that pattern. I think he tries a number of patterns of behaviour that help him push relationships with women away.

1) Looking at other women - this seems to be a common theme running throughout tWoK and WoR. It seems to have stopped by OB.

2) Irritating them - eg he seems to annoy Danlan in the winehouse (tWoK) when he tells her she always says she is ignorant but that she is anything but. I am not sure what we are meant to think Danlan is thinking there - but she definitely gets annoyed for a moment with him - perhaps because he interrupts her or points out the "lie" she is telling (she says she is ignorant about the warcamps because she is only recently arrived). Anyway, she grimaces and we know that relationship ended poorly but it is unclear why - we know she "said" things he didn't like, and that he said it wasn't his fault for once. 

3) Showing little interest in their activities - eg with Janala and the cut strap and taking her with him despite her being bored, walking away from Shallan as she draws/learns

Finally, with Shallan, because none of these has worked, I think Adolin might be trying some new tactics (again, subconsciously). He is nauseatingly soppy, which should put off any woman in her right mind imo (it isn't just me right?) and actually a bit clingy (Shallan rebels against it is WoR and when he wants to get her a palanquin in OB) at times - despite her proclamation that she doesn't want it (granted she seems to revel in it at the end of OB.... ugh). Then lastly, when none of that works, he tries to step away and she doesn't let him.

I'd argue that Adolin currently fits too well into the Prince Charming trope - and we know how BS likes to subvert them. As a point, Shallan is currently occupying the princess role - but there is a section on that page that says this:

Quote

Now, that link doesn't necessarily link to Kaladin or Shallan specifically - but it would be hilarious if it did ;) 

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On 11/16/2017 at 2:38 AM, Harbour said:

Things that made me confused or irritated in OB about Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin.

1)BS only once mentioned Adolin noticing how Shallan looked at Kaladin, in the end of the Part 4. Then he brought that "i saw you looking at each other all the time" arguement. Id prefer BS to build up this arguement better, cause it looks like brought it as a fast made up point for Adolin to wish to broke up with Shallan.

2)Repeating of the same back and forth. I swear someday ill put the whole OB into MSWord and use the search of "his blue eyes", "handsome" and "dangerous eyes" objects. I bet i fill find alot of the scene where Shallan said this stuff.

The same with Kaladin. How many times he told himself "Im not going to be with her"? At least three times. damnation, that some delightfull masochism.

3)For some reason since the Part 2 or Part 3 of OB BS for some reason started to heavily imply that its Veil who liked Kaladin, parallelly baiting us with Shallan showing the hints of interest in him too. Thats confusing and irritating.

4)They dont talk each other. BS wave away Adolin murder like nothing, as well as make Kaladin to not be bothered with telling to Shallan about Helaran, and make Shallan be absolutely fine with Helaran death. Well, given how she bullied Kaladin, she is not fine but dont bother to explain to Kaladin why she does this. Thats pretty egoistic behaviour id say.

5)The whole solution. That was pretty painfull. BS did everything to show that both Adolin and Shallan ruin their relationship in that scene showing all their issues yet decided to hook up nevertheless basically saying "Lets Ignore It". Also "I really love him" thing. Well, i dont get the "real thing" vibe from that. There was no proper build up and it just didnt work for me.

6)Yet BS continued teasing us untill the very end bringing Shallan staring at Kaladin hovering above the roof even during Shallan-Adolin conversation. He could have avoid it but no.

 

Hi,

Since this post is mainly based on Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin, and question here is who will get the girl. 

Kaladin in OB had said "I don't think i loved her, Syl. I felt .... something. A lightening of my burden when i was near her. She reminds me of someone."

After that the story indicates he was talking about Tien, his brother. So in my opinion Kal and Shallan will at most share a  close friend or brother-sister bond and not a romantic one. So this should solve the problem of a love triangle between these three.

As for adolin's future with shallan, i think it is shown to hasten the process of Adolin becoming a KR since his wedding with shallan will speed up things just like it did for bridge four.

TWP

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3 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

After that the story indicates he was talking about Tien, his brother. So in my opinion Kal and Shallan will at most share a  close friend or brother-sister bond and not a romantic one. So this should solve the problem of a love triangle between these three.

It really doesn't though. Just because she vaguely reminds him of his brother, or how he made him feel, just doesn't mean that a romantic relationship can't happen. It's very weak reasoning in Kaladin's part for him to step out of the triangle and it feels forced.

3 hours ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

Adolin becoming a KR since his wedding with shallan will speed up things just like it did for bridge four.

Bridge 4 are Kaladin's squires before they start bonding Honorspren. If Adolin is to become a KR, it would be an edgedancer due to his blade, which I don't personally agree with as I'd classify him closer to Willshaper, but probably not a Lightweaver as I don't think he has the temprement or artistic skill for it. Also, Shallan is a Lightweaver and I'm not sure it works like that for their squires, if they indeed have any, as Gaz and the rest of her people haven't shown signs of bonding Cryptics. Lastly, I don't think Adolin as a character has the inclination to become his own wifes squire.

 

Edited by DimChatz
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2 hours ago, DimChatz said:

It really doesn't though. Just because she vaguely reminds him of his brother, or how he made him feel, just doesn't mean that a romantic relationship can't happen. It's very weak reasoning in Kaladin's part for him to step out of the triangle and it feels forced.

You may be right but i don't think it was forced, at-least the way it was worded in the book doesn't look forced. But then way of hearts are more complicated then way or kings :P:P

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5 minutes ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

You may be right but i don't think it was forced, at-least the way it was worded in the book doesn't look forced. But then way of hearts are more complicated then way or kings :P:P

Well, it fits with the whole "Shallan is Adolin's betrothed" schtick, that he has going during OB, whenever Syl tries to talk to him about it.

Plus, that she reminds him of Tien is no new revelation for him. He already noticed that in the chasms.

Plus plus ( :D ), I'd like to refer you to this post by @DeployParachute , that takes a deeper look into the possible meaning of the stone, which is more than just Tien.

 

Edited by SLNC
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12 minutes ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

at-least the way it was worded in the book doesn't look forced.

What I meant by forced was that Kaladin kinda forced himself to think that as a reason to repress his feelings, just to feel agreement and accept the situation, as @DeployParachute suggests, and not have to make a choice.

 

Edited by DimChatz
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5 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

What I ment by forced was that Kaladin kinda forced himself to think that as a reason to repress his feelings, just to feel agreement and accept the situation, as @DeployParachute

suggests, and not have to make a choice.

Maybe you are right. But as a fan (of Kaladin) i really don't want him to end up with something like shallan. Kaladin, while broken inside is trying to find ways to live, he sticks on to smallest hopes and then do something grand, people say he is hiding but i don't see where he hid, he always shone bright. On the other hand, Shallan creates a new personality everytime she faces a new problem, at this rate she will soon end up with enough personalities that she can be intimate with every KR, there is something very wrong inside the thing she is carrying on his shoulders.

Then there sprens are a different thing altogether, whatever i read, i think that cryptics and Honorspren don't bond well and usually avoid each other, so if Shalladin happens, well i just hope it never comes to that. Maybe Brandon will be kind enough to let Odium have shallan instead of Kal getting romantic with shallan

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7 minutes ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

Kaladin, while broken inside is trying to find ways to live, he sticks on to smallest hopes and then do something grand, people say he is hiding but i don't see where he hid, he always shone bright.

Usually, he does. I agree. It is more about how he is hiding his feelings for the living, so he can keep focusing on the dead.

7 minutes ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

On the other hand, Shallan creates a new personality everytime she faces a new problem, at this rate she will soon end up with enough personalities that she can be intimate with every KR, there is something very wrong inside the thing she is carrying on his shoulders.

I had the feeling, that the resolution of OB for her was, that she stopped fragmenting further, but has personaShallan, Veil and Radiant for now.

7 minutes ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

Then there sprens are a different thing altogether, whatever i read, i think that cryptics and Honorspren don't bond well and usually avoid each other, so if Shalladin happens, well i just hope it never comes to that.

Pattern and Syl are still individuals. Especially Syl does seem to be different from normal honorspren. The whole Cryptic vs. honorspren thing actually seems to be just a mirror of racial prejudice we see in our normal lives too, but that is nothing that couldn't be overcome. Furthermore, it could represent a mirror of the darkeyes vs. lighteyes thing, that Kaladin and Shallan also have.

Edited by SLNC
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43 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I had the feeling, that the resolution of OB for her was, that she stopped fragmenting further, but has personaShallan, Veil and Radiant for now.

50 minutes ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

Hope you are right, for a KR specially the ones who are saviors of current era SA she is too twisted, if i was Odium i could've found ways to use her in my schemes.

 

45 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Pattern and Syl are still individuals. Especially Syl does seem to be different from normal honorspren. The whole Cryptic vs. honorspren thing actually seems to be just a mirror of racial prejudice we see in our normal lives too, but that is nothing that couldn't be overcome. Furthermore, it could represent a mirror of the darkeyes vs. lighteyes thing, that Kaladin and Shallan also have.

Maybe you are right, but i think its more ethical the racial since cryptics are fueled by lies and honorspren are fueled by honorable deeds. 

 

Does anyone hinted that it is possible for a spren to marry humans, because then kal will be in safe hands.:)

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18 minutes ago, TheWarriorPoet said:

Does anyone hinted that it is possible for a spren to marry humans, because then kal will be in safe hands.:)

When you say marry humans you mean perform the ceremony? 

If you mean a relationship between Syl and Kaladin there're people who think it possible, I personally don't, but there's WoB out there referring to it and it isn't exactly encouraging.

Here are two of threads discussing it.

Edited by DimChatz
Typos and phrasing, to make it clearer.
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