[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

Hi!  So two (not so quick) things...

First, a couple WoBs from the OB signing which I found were interesting, if not particularly dispositive.  There two on foreshadowing (quotes and links below.)  The first one (which is a bit garbled) is Brandon saying foreshadowing is the thing he loves to do the most.  The second is not completely on point (I bolded some of the interesting parts), but it discuses his perspective on the interaction between fan expectations and ensuring your foreshadowing works (in the context of, don't change what's going to happen even if fans guess where it's going because that will blow your foreshadowing.)  Neither tells us anything about Shalladin of course, but they do emphasize how important foreshadowing is to the author, and the latter does address the point that a story should move in the direction it needs to move, not to cater to fan wishes.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

*inaudible* find yourself foreshadowing in any of your books.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

All the time. Like, the thing I love to do the most.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/172-oathbringer-san-diego-signing/#e8568

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We have a lot of fan theories about your work, and most of them are wrong by necessity.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...That is true.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Are there things that are sort of directly designed to encourage or dissuade certain theories?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...As a member of Wheel of Time fandom growing up, I have experience on both sides of this now. And I decided after-- and this was partially looking at Robert Jordan's notes, looking at how he approached it, how it worked, being a fan-- I decided that that direction lies madness. Trying to stay ahead of the fans, trying-- if you try to twist so much that the fans can't guess, then that just means your foreshadowing is not going to work. On the other hand, doing too many in-jokes and things like this, it risks just making your book uninteresting, or not long-lasting.

And so while I read a lot of fan theories, and I even take them on occasion-- like Shardfork? That was totally a fan thing. Someone suggested that, I'm like, "Yeah, that would totally happen." But I kinda have to approach it from the frame of mind of "What would the characters do?" And I try not to actively write things that dissuade or encourage certain theories, I try to write what is best for the story. And let the fans then-- if they're going to guess, they're going to guess. If my foreshadowing is good, they probably are going to guess. At the same time, I know how insane they all are, 'cause I'm one of them, and I know they're just gonna go off on weird tangents. And that's just fine too.

So, it's this weird balance where I try to be part of the fandom, but make sure not being overly influenced by the fandom, and Wheel of Time gave me a lot of good practice on this. One of the things I really worried about with Wheel of Time was that the book would become a sequence of in-jokes for people who had read the series before. And yet, at the same time, as a fan, there were certain things I really wanted to see happen. I wanted to see certain characters meet up again after a long time apart, and I had been waiting for that for, like, a decade, and I was gonna make that happen, right? And I had to balance those two things, and that's just what I do with my books, even still.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8619

This next one could have a lot of meanings, but it confirms while a rock is just a rock to Tien, that the rock is used to symbolize other things in the book.  While we know the rock symbolizes Tien to Kaladin (that's pretty obvious), the vagueness in these "metaphorical relationships" made me think of @DeployParachute's theory.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Tien's <interest in> rocks. Is that just because he likes rocks, or is there something?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Not really. There'll be some metaphorical relationships underpinning it, but really the answer is, no, he just really likes rocks.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/172-oathbringer-san-diego-signing/#e8562

Second, I had a breakthrough on the keteks, which I doubt will be a breakthrough for many people (since it's pretty obvious) but... the title of the parts of each book is the ketek!  (It's ok to roll your eyes at me because that was really obvious.)  But I just noticed this over the weekend, so it got me thinking if we could analyze the keteks in conjunction which what occurs in each part as related to the subject matter of the ketek.  This ends up being interesting in OB (at least for us triangleaphites), sorta of meh in WoR because it's so obvious, and inscrutable in WoK because we don't know what the ketek is about (I guess; it kinda works.)  I take a stab at interpreting below.  Note I am fully aware that this method of interpreting the ketek could be incorrect, and that the part titles also fit into other aspects of the story in those parts (which I think is part of the genius of them.)

OB:  "United, new beginnings sing: 'Defying truth, love.  Truth defy!'  Sing beginnings, new unity."  Note the punctuation is different in the ketek then in the part headings.  The subject of the ketek is obvious here - the marriage of Adolin and Shallan - so I will look at their relationship in each of the parts as it relates to the section of the ketek used in the title.

• Part One: United
  • This is very easy, as Part One contains the largest collection of Shallan/Adolin relationship-building scenes in any of the books, with the sword fighting scene (which stretched over two chapters), meeting Ialai together and fighting Re-Shephir together.  They are truly united in their relationship.
• Part Two: New Beginnings Sing
  • I feel this is pretty easy, though would be controversial if I ever had the courage to float this ketek interpretation to a wider group.  Adolin is literally not present in this part, so the new beginnings could only be with respect to Shallan as the only member of the marriage who is present.  What does happen in this part is that Shallan draws her distracted picture of Kaladin and also (off-screen) flies with him to Thaylen City and to the surrounding mountains to draw Urithiru.  I can't see it in any way except as Kaladin as the "new beginning."  
• Part Three: Defying Truth, Love Truth
  • So this is a contradiction, as it implies our to-be-married couple is both defying truth and loving truth.  I think this makes sense in light of Shallan's split personality; on one hand she is denying truth by shunting her feelings for Kaladin onto Veil and insisting her full affection is for Adolin (we explicitly see this exact mental maneuver by Shallan a few times in this chapter), but on the other hand, personaShallan does love Adolin so that is her (personaShallan's) truth.
• Part Four: Defy! Sing Beginnings!
  • The use of the imperative seems to suggest that the choice is to defy (push off Veil) and imperatively sing beginnings.  This is the part where Kaladin and Shallan have the oft-cited conversation which shows Kaladin is glorifying Shallan's coping mechanism (which takes him out of the running as a good romantic match for Shallan at the moment) and also the part where Shallan and Adolin have their most-intimate conversation, where Shallan admits to her personas and Adolin admits to killing Sadeas.  Both of those things line up to a part which is cementing where Shallan is headed by book's end; aggressively defying her feelings and jumping suddenly into the beginning of her marriage.
• Part Five: New Unity
  • This one is also very easy, as since the book ends in the Adolin/Shallan marriage, this is a new type of unity.
• Overall, I think this suggests that the marriage is based on defying truth, as it was the "Defy!" which led to the singing beginnings and the new unity.  This is quote in line with at least this group's line of thinking.

WoR:  "Alight, winds approach deadly approaching winds alight."  This ketek is on Navani's journal of the events leading to the arrival of the Everstorm.  Although not 100% clear, I think this ketek is about the Everstorm itself, so I will look at it in the context of the events which happened that lead to the summoning of the Everstorm from the Listener perspective.  (Our Alethi were not the proximate cause of the Everstorm.)  I take the interludes at the end of each part as being part of the preceding part for these purposes.

• Part One: Alight
  • This is when the Listeners agree Eshonai will turn into stormform, and that decision is what cemented the fact the Everstorm would eventually be summoned.
• Part Two: Winds' Approach
  • This is when Eshonai actually took stormform and speaks to the crowd at Narak about the glories of stormform; the power of all those Listeners in stormform is what will cause the Everstorm.
• Part Three: Deadly
  • Eshonai is extremely aggressive in her "convincing" of the Listeners to all take stormform and wants to kill those who oppose, so she is acting in a deadly manner to squelch any resistance which could halt the summoning of the Everstorm.
• Part Four: The Approach
  • Venli and Eshonai argue about when to summon the Everstorm, with Eshonai's prevailing argument that they should wait for the Alethi to approach.  Alternatively, this can quite simply mean the approach of the Everstorm.
• Part Five: Winds Alight
  • Like Part 5 in OB, this is also obvious because this is the section where the Everstorm is summoned by the Listeners, and so its winds actually do descend on the Shattered Plains.
• Overall, I think it is very easy to put this ketek into my interpretation format and the result is obvious; the Everstorm arrived.

WoK: "Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above."  This is hard as we don't know what this ketek is about.  It is a death rattle from a Herdazian, so we know it's of Odium and speaks of something in the future.  I'm going to interpret it as Dalinar discovering Honor is dead (i.e. his visions during the storm showed him that there was no Almighty above.)

• Part One: Above Silence
  • The difficult part of the interpretation I chose is that Dalinar isn't in parts one and three.  However, if we look at the effect of Honor's death on Kaladin and Shallan, I think we can make these parts work, though they are not the most convincing.  Here we have two people in very desperate situations; Kaladin as a slave and his early days on the bridge crews and Shallan needing to steal from Jasnah in order to save her family.  Although I don't like how "above" could correlate to "better than" Honor (the silence), it can also just mean "outside of" Honor, in which both characters were placed in dishonorable situations (Kaladin where other men are acting dishonorably by wasting bridgeman lives, and Shallan where she is forced to act dishonorably to save her family.)  I am not particularly convinced of my own interpretation.
• Part Two: The Illuminating Storms
  • This one is fairly easy, too, as it is during highstorms when Dalinar receives his visions (which begin to illuminate what he will eventually learn at the end of the book.)
• Part Three: Dying
  • Following through on my intro to part one, this part ends with an extreme low point for both Kaladin and Shallan; Kaladin's flashback shows Amaram slaughtering his men (the very embodiment of death of honor) and Shallan is abandoned by Jasnah after her treachery is uncovered (Jasnah saw that Honor was dead within Shallan by virtue of her theft.)  Again, I do think parts one and three are the weakest.
• Part Four: Storm's Illumination
  • Dalinar receives more illuminating visions from Honor during the highstorm.  (Note the Stormfather, i.e. the storm itself, is the one sending these.)  For another take, we also have Sadeas' betrayal which is another example of Honor being dead inside men, as this action was also (like Amaram's treachery) the very embodiment of the death of Honor.
• Part Five: The Silence Above
  • Like the other two books, this is the easiest, as this is the part where Dalinar actually learns Honor is dead, and that there is nothing "above" (in the heavens) but silence.

Alright, this was very long, but I had fun if you guys managed to read to the end!  Thank you for providing a safe thread to share my thoughts!

[Awesomness]

Has anyone read the books in a different language? English is too simple... I´m sure the different versions could give better insight on the meaning (kind of with the Harry Potter´s RAB mystery).

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Has anyone read the books in a different language? English is too simple... I´m sure the different versions could give better insight on the meaning (kind of with the Harry Potter´s RAB mystery).

The Polish version would be cool for that because the endless word forms allow for little ambiguity - all ofc assuming, that the translator consulted it all well with Brandon. Unfortunately, OB translation is divided into two parts and for now, I can only check the first two pieces of the ketek. The only thing that I can see clarified is that "united" refers to those who sing and "new beginnings" are sung. Not surprising, but I guess we could try to interpret it somewhat differently. I'll let you know more in April.

@Dreamstorm My mind was blown when I first noticed that as well. I wouldn't necessarily interpret the OB part titles with regard to ASK (especially Unity has so many meanings there), though maybe it is a part of it... It was written for the wedding after all. So I wonder if it's somewhat a coincidence, that the wedding ketek turned out to be also the right one for chapter titles, or if he actually meant for the romantic storyline to be that important. Maybe a mix of both.

On 17.12.2017 at 6:07 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Quote

“Oh, them,” Syl said. “Well, I know that you don’t back down from fights. You’ve lost the round, but—”

“No,” he said. “Her choice is made. You can see it.”

“I can?”

“You should be able to.” 

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1201). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

I should be able to see it; I couldn't agree more.  Except that I am just still not seeing it.  Kind of like I didn't see the actual wedding.  I can't help but wonder if Sanderson wants us to not see it, wants us to doubt, wants us to question, and wants us to call foul.  

That's actually from full book reactions, but I absolutely love this as a piece of foreshadowing/fourth wall breaking.

EDIT By now I can't help but get extremely suspicious when someone uses question marks (Shallan hearing Wit's? voice, Kaladin feeling acceptance? and so on)

Edited December 18, 2017 by Ailvara

[Dreamstorm]

43 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

So I wonder if it's somewhat a coincidence, that the wedding ketek turned out to be also the right one for chapter titles, or if he actually meant for the romantic storyline to be that important. Maybe a mix of both.

My hope is it's both (since I think it would be genius) - so you can read the Part headings both with respect to the events in that Part as a whole and as they specifically relate to the subject matter of the ketek.  It definitely may just be the former, but now I can't wait for the ketek in the next book (when I previously kind of ignored them... )

45 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

On 12/17/2017 at 0:07 PM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I should be able to see it; I couldn't agree more.  Except that I am just still not seeing it.  Kind of like I didn't see the actual wedding.  I can't help but wonder if Sanderson wants us to not see it, wants us to doubt, wants us to question, and wants us to call foul.  

That's actually from full book reactions, but I absolutely love this as a piece of foreshadowing/fourth wall breaking.

EDIT By now I can't help but get extremely suspicious when someone uses question marks (Shallan hearing Wit's? voice, Kaladin feeling acceptance? and so on)

This is an awesome catch - and perfectly describes so many people's feelings about the conclusion! 

[GoddessIMHO]

Unity, truth, defiance and new beginnings are also themes for Venli so I think it's really the theme of the entire book. HAHA, I suppose you could even say that Amaram had a new beginning, it just ended fairly quickly.

I liked the triangle shardpost but I would recommend that Shalladin supporters avoid it as it will only upset them.

[Humming]

I finished the book this evening and don't know how to feel.

I'm not very into shipping, but to be honest with the kind of foreshadowing that Sanderson was pulling between Kaladin and Shallan, I thought they would get closer as we can't deny that they have mutual atraction, even though (superficial?visible?)Shallan tries to push it to their fractured personas. I've spent quite a while diving into this thread and I found some Shalladin shippers not trusting her decisions at the end.

My money was on Kal, too, but don't get me wrong, one just can't simply hate my boy Adolin. But, how to explain it, they had nothing deep? I mean, maybe I've interpreted it wrong, but each time Shallan is around Adolin, she is the least of herself. Their interactions most of time in the early parts of the books felt cheesy as heck, like a low effort romance. As much as I like Adolin and Shallan, the two of them together feels very incomplete, at least in this moment of the story. Their interacions are dull and boring, thanks Pattern for relieving these boring 15 years old flirting into funny moments with your 'No mating!'.

Everything about the wedding and the 'why I chose you' felt no romantic at all, just rushed. Like a rabbit looking for shelter from an unknown danger in his hole. Is this truly the end of this theme or just a 'prepare for whats next'-ending? Because Shallan is still hurt, pushing feelings aside and shoving them at the back of your mind doesn't work forever. This book is about her fracturing more and more, but I still think that we haven't seen realShallan apart from a few glimpses.

Is Adolin marrying a whole woman, or another of her personas but without a Light Weave working on her?

 

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

“Oh, them,” Syl said. “Well, I know that you don’t back down from fights. You’ve lost the round, but—”

“No,” he said. “Her choice is made. You can see it.”

“I can?”

“You should be able to.” 

If this is the author breaking the 4th wall to interact with the readers to tell that this sub plot is done, I'd feel very, very disappointed. I've already read some of his other works and noticed too that romance is not his best writing, but come on... This is not the major point of SA, but I'd have a hard time getting over this kind of  apparently rushed development.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Humming

[Ailvara]

6 minutes ago, Humming said:

If this is the author breaking the 4th wall to interact with the readers to tell that this sub plot is done, I'd feel very, very disappointed. I've already read some of his other works and noticed too that romance is not his best writing, but come on... This is not the major point of SA, but I'd have a hard time getting over this kind of  apparently rushed development.

I understood it more like we were put in the position of Syl. That we should see evidence that Shallan has made her decision, but there's something wrong with it. And if she's unconvinced, we can be as well.

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

[Humming]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

I understood it more like we were put in the position of Syl. That we should see evidence that Shallan has made her decision, but there's something wrong with it. And if she's unconvinced, we can be as well.

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

I feel the same, both Shallan and Adolin work better when not interacting as a couple. Adolin is just flawless (but when he is alone, we can see him being impulsive, kinda stubborn, not bad traits, but HIS own traits, that are pushed aside when he's with Shallan), the perfect boyfriend you would expect from a Fairy Tale. And Shallan, jeez, she just cling onto him even trying to forget about her traits that could spoil their relationship. The difference is that Adolin just acts more pricely but Shallan truly changes her own personality.

Maybe I was carried by the sadness of the scene where Kaladin lets her go, I didn't think about your point. Now that you mention it, maybe it's true that Syl indeed notices that something is not quite right about that, and we the readers should not believe what the characters said after a whole book feeling the opposite way.

[Awesomness]

4 hours ago, Ailvara said:

The Polish version would be cool for that because the endless word forms allow for little ambiguity - all ofc assuming, that the translator consulted it all well with Brandon. Unfortunately, OB translation is divided into two parts and for now, I can only check the first two pieces of the ketek. The only thing that I can see clarified is that "united" refers to those who sing and "new beginnings" are sung. Not surprising, but I guess we could try to interpret it somewhat differently. I'll let you know more in April.

I managed to find the 1st Ketek in Spanish. There is not knowing if it is a accurate or just a lazy translation.  I read the "Above Silence" as the absence of Honor/the Almighty. The high storms are showing/reveling this lack of Honor. Also, the storms are dying...? 

"Above silence" could relate to the helplessness the characters seem to feel in the first part. "Illuminatig storms" may be, as @Dreamstorm said, the massage conveyed in Dalinar´s visions. It could also refer to the first steps they take towards their respective objetives. Here is when Kaladin starts to fight back again...I´m at lost with "dying storms". "Illuminate the silence above" seems to me like a call to action, people chasing to stand up by themselves, in response to the lack of Honor.

Quote

Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above

Arriba silencio, las tormentas iliminadoras —tormentas moribundas— iliminan el silencio de arriba. 

On a second thought, the "dying storms" reminded me of this: 

Quote

“Syl still stood beside him, facing eastward. It made his very soul twist in knots to see that look of despair on her face. “Are windspren attracted to wind,” she asked softly, “or do they make it?”
“I don’t know,” Kaladin said. “Does it matter?”
“Perhaps not. You see, I’ve remembered what kind of spren I am.”

Excerpt From: Brandon Sanderson. “The Way of Kings.” iBooks. 

Maybe the "dying storms" are the consequence of Honor´s absence. Honor used to be a sort of moral compass. The storms and winds are linked with Honor many times. So the fact that there is "silence above" / Honor is not there causes the "dying storm"/lack of honorable acts, and that reveals the absence of Honor.

Kind of what Syl means in that passage. 

Am I making sense? 

---

@Humming welcome onboard. 

@GoddessIMHO I haven´t listend to the shardpost, but there is no denying there are many that feel at lost with the triangle resolution, and we have already overanalyzed everything and still get the same feeling, so I guess it doesn't really matter what they say. I´m glad for them anyway.

As for the Ketek, I agree it applies to the whole book, though being made for Shallan´s marriage it may have some specific meaning. It is a strange piece to write on a wedding day...

[Guest]

7 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I liked the triangle shardpost but I would recommend that Shalladin supporters avoid it as it will only upset them.

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided?

4 hours ago, Awesomness said:

As for the Ketek, I agree it applies to the whole book, though being made for Shallan´s marriage it may have some specific meaning. It is a strange piece to write on a wedding day...

Maybe Jasnah is just bad at Vorin poetry

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

No, it is very much this. And well, the relationship started out as forced by Shallan and ended in a very much forced marriage by Shallan. Shallan has just shifted the goalposts. At first, it was for the safety of her family and now it is to anchor personaShallan as dominant. After having seen that WoK annotation, that says, that the moments of flaring passion are what Brandon defines as more "her" and how dominant Veil got at times, I'm more and more convinced, that Veil is much, much closer to the realShallan and which is why Shallan is so inclined to keep personaShallan as dominant. No matter the costs.

@Humming Welcome. Check out this summary, if you need a condensed resource. 60 pages are a lot to go through: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

 

[enryu]

Hi, I made an account just so I could complain about this.

I found this love triangle to be physically repulsive. I liked Shallan and Syl coming out of Words of Radiance, but now my opinion of them both - particularly Syl - is in the dumpster. Adolin and Shallan are betrothed, right? They're engaged. One step from marriage. How, by any moral standard, is it okay to be lusting after another dude when you are literally one step away from marriage? I get that it's Veil, and Shallan has split personalities, but that doesn't mean it's not disgusting. 

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

The whole thing made me really uncomfortable throughout the book. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, enryu said:

Adolin and Shallan are betrothed, right? They're engaged.

Causally betrothed. They could have broken off the engagement at any point.

3 minutes ago, enryu said:

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

Well, you see, Syl has a very... simplistic view of that. A causal betrothal is no oath, so there is nothing, that can be broken. She doesn't see the immorality, because morality is pretty much a human social construct. She is a spren after all.

[PhineasGage]

Hey all

I'm full of cold and all woolly today so sorry for not being able to post in my normal way. I'm just too tired!

I wanted to get on this ketek thing discussion because it will be useful I think. I am essentially going to brainstorm some ideas and possibilities, so feel free to brush them aside or run with them as you like.

Quote

tWoK Ketek: Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above

Ok so I think this ketek was heard as a death rattle before Kaladin arrived at the Shattered plains, thus it is possible that it refers to anything during the three books we have or still into the future. It also, clearly, has multiple layers of meaning.

1) The ketek as a whole shows tWoK story - the silent chasms (the book is set on the plains above the chasms), the fact that Honor is dead (silent above), the "illumination" of stormlight for Kaladin becoming Radiant (glowing), the "illumination" of Dalinar by being given the visions, 

2) The ketek may be applied to a single character. My personal guess is that the ketek is actually meant to align most closely to the MC of it's book. Therefore in this case, Kaladin. It shows his descent into the chasms, his acquisition of stormlight --> Radiance, his ability to fly (not yet in tWoK but it works), and possibly some foreshadowing for his future? Eg "dying" (figuratvely when he killed Syl or literally in a future book - perhaps as a "Herald") also that he may "ascend" in a similar way to Dalinar - probably not as "Honor" but again possibly to becoming the replacement for Jezrien

3) The ketek is subdivided - as per @Dreamstorm's analysis. Each part relates to a part of the ketek but the punctuation can be off to give a complete idea that represents the section of the book it titles.

I had another thought here but I can't remember it - stupid woolly brain.

 

Quote

Alight, winds approach deadly approaching winds alight

Ok so by the same analysis methods as above we get:

1) Represents the whole book (again) as it portrays Shallan's situation of becoming Radiant ("alight" - indeed i believe she even uses the term for herself in PoV iirc), the approach of the everstorm, Kaladin's progression, the chasmfiend fight (Kaladin "approaches" with Shallan "alight" the "deadly" chasmfiend/highstorm). The highstorm and everstorm clash (each approaches from different sides) and then combine into a "deadly" climax.

2) Ketek applies most to Shallan. She is "Alight" as a Lightweaver, she approaches winds (Kaladin), she is deadly (we see her as a killer thrice over in this book), she helps Kaladin progress by "lightening" him, she approaches the everstorm/the idea of the everstorm and the coming of the voidbringers and doesn't hide from the idea. I would suggest (purely from a Shalladin perspective of course) that this also indicates that Shalladin isn't finished - the "winds alight" to me references that Kal (wind) and Shallan (light) are intrinsically linked. But she is actually in the "Deadly" part of the Ketek - which a) fits Adolin who is a murderer, and (b) suggests not a brilliant end to the marriage. She should end with "lighting" the "wind". 

3) Again can be subdivided per part of the book. I would argue that it links more than just the Listeners situation (tho I agree with your comments otherwise @Dreamstorm) 

• Alight = Shallan showing her lightweaving, Dalinar actively acting as Highprince of war, Kaladin glowing and learning his skills (also in much better mood than generally he was bfore)
• Wind's approach = iirc Kaladin flies in this section? He and Shallan have multiple interactions. We see the "highstorm date" between Adolin and Shallan, 
• Deadly - chasm sequence iirc? People died in that assassination attempt and everyone thought Kaladin and Shallan were dead. Indeed they nearly were given the chasmfiend and highstorm, both of which are pretty deadly. Syl is "killed". 
• The Approach - obviously as the armies approach the Parshendi in the hopes of winning and fulfulling the vengeance pact. Kaladin "approaches" the understanding of the 3rd ideal, Shallan "approaches" the truth of her lightweaving by revealing herself to Dalinar. Dalinar "approaches" his situation of bonding the stormfather by heading towards access to Urithiru - also he has started "unifying" properly now because he has got 2 other highprinces following him.
• Winds Alight - Kaladin re-awakes Syl, Everstorm is summoned, Shallan "illuminates" the way to Urithiru, Kaladin saves the day, Dalinar becomes radiant (ie glows) as a result of the stormfather (also wind lol).

Quote

United, new beginnings sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!" Sing beginnings, new unity.

1) Ok, so this represents OB as a whole because we see the United people of Dalinar's armies at Urithiru at the beginning of the new Radiant era, Dalinar is trying to defy the truth of his past as a warmonger and bring people together besides it, We have a whole love triangle thing and Shallan is still lying to herself throuighout, Shallan is "united" initially then fractures but is operating as a different ("new") unit (3 in one) at the end of OB (nb her alts all hold hands), Bridge 4 and the other bridgecrews are all follwing Kaladin, by the end, there is a different unity because Lopen and Teft (who both follow Kal) also have their own squires. The Kholin house is now united in one place (Gavinor brought to Urithiru) and the crown of the united Alethkar has passed from Elhokar to Jasnah. Dalinar defies his truth (because his memories are suppressed) but then remembers it and learns to love that truth (in a way) because it gave him the strength to (a) resist Odium, (b) become a better person (c) gain forgiveness.

2) I think this Ketek represents Dalinar. It appears to be the wedding but actually I think it works best for Dalinar and the KR by extension. Dalinar is united with Navani in their new beginning. He defies the truth of his past, gradually remembering it then drinking himself into oblivion to defy it further, he gradually accepts (loves?) it and learns from it, uses the truth to defy Odium . He begins again with the unification/alliance of the peoples of Roshar and the KR. Note that the KR also have a bit of this - they appear united at first, they have no idea that the original VB were humans and surgebinding is potentially dangerous. They then defy that truth and act anyway because they need to, we see the Heralds possibly join the KR at Urithiru and join together again. 

Anyway, just some thoughts. Sorry if it is a bit incoherent 

 

[Humming]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

@Humming Welcome. Check out this summary, if you need a condensed resource. 60 pages are a lot to go through: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

 

10 hours ago, Awesomness said:

@Humming welcome onboard. 

Thanks for the welcome! I'll check the link as soon as I can.

----

5 hours ago, enryu said:

Hi, I made an account just so I could complain about this.

I found this love triangle to be physically repulsive. I liked Shallan and Syl coming out of Words of Radiance, but now my opinion of them both - particularly Syl - is in the dumpster. Adolin and Shallan are betrothed, right? They're engaged. One step from marriage. How, by any moral standard, is it okay to be lusting after another dude when you are literally one step away from marriage? I get that it's Veil, and Shallan has split personalities, but that doesn't mean it's not disgusting. 

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

The whole thing made me really uncomfortable throughout the book. 

Sorry, but I can't understand the hatred in your post, like Shallan was acting like some kind of immoral human being. 

Shallan and Adolin are bethroted, yes, but since when a legal agreement must be a barrier for new feelings? You used the word 'lusted', but I we assume that Shallan was lusting for Kaladin, what was she doing for Adolin? There are a lot of times where she notes 'how hot he is' like it was some cheap Twilight scene. Shallan totally lusts after Adolin, but that doesnt stop her from developing feelings for Adolin.

The problem is that (in my opinion) Veil and Radiant sided with these new emotions flowing towards Kaladin, proving that Shallan is fractured almost as 3 independent individuals, and the Shallan that is in love with Adolin and rushes to a marriage because she suddenly felt the urge to, is denying that Veil and Radiant are part of her true self, as well as the feelings for Kaladin.

It's just her tactic again, deny the problem, shove it the more deep you can, and carry on until you explode.

And about Syl, well. First of all, she's bonded with Kaladin, not with Shallan nor Adolin. What's she supposed to do? An informal bethrotal is not an Oath, spren are not ruled by a legal system mirroring the one in Roshar. Why would she care about a single word of 'yeah, we are kinda going to marry, maybe'.

For her, Kaladin chasing the woman he seems to love is not an immoral act, because he is a protector, he is not forbidden to love. Did the Stormfather for example complain because Dalinar married the widow of his brother? If I recall correctly, ardents were Ned Flanders-judgemental because they were flirting. But hey, the Stormfather was totally fine with it because he didn't see it as wrong or immoral.

[Rainier]

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

17 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I liked the triangle shardpost but I would recommend that Shalladin supporters avoid it as it will only upset them.

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided?

Yeah, it's about as bad as you can imagine. It's this entire thread, only backwards. I couldn't get through it.

[Dreamstorm]

17 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I think I have finally managed to formulate why Shadolin bothers me so much (apart from the Shalladin foreshadowing/they're boring/she's not in place for a relationship arguments). It's that I don't see anything special and individual happening between them. Adolin being the prince charming he is would make nearly any other available girl happy. Shallan has chosen to show him only the part of her which works well with him, which again would work if she had any other kind of personality (while still being able to do this trick). I just simply feel, that we could replace any of these characters with somebody else and it would work just as well; there is no particular individual connection between them. Let me know if it's just me.

I actually think this might be part of the appeal of Shadolin - people can easily imagine themselves slipping into a relationship with Adolin (or the Adolin personality traits in whatever gender they prefer), so when one thinks - would I rather be with Adolin or Kaladin?, Adolin is always the winner since he would make anyone happy!  Insofar as his relationship with Shallan, he's infinitely patient and understanding not to mention super hot and rich and the best fighter ever.  What's not to love?  Maybe that's the only reason Adolin had his "relationship problems" prior to Shallan from a narrative perspective; it was an attempt to show there is something "special" about Shallan which stopped his wandering eye (his only fault besides his temper (which thankfully is not directed towards women)?), but I agree it wasn't well-developed.  We get one list of Shallan's attributes from Adolin's perspective in WoR (the one where she's clever but doesn't make him feel stupid and she's not smothered in Alethi propriety), but other than that, we don't hear (from his mind or from what he tells her) why she's suddenly reformed him.  Like you said, we in general don't hear a lot about why he specifically fits with her and she specifically fits with him.  Emphasizing that special "fit" seems to be something Brandon has done in other relationships (Wax/Steris comes to mind), but seems to be lacking here.

17 hours ago, Humming said:

Maybe I was carried by the sadness of the scene where Kaladin lets her go, I didn't think about your point. Now that you mention it, maybe it's true that Syl indeed notices that something is not quite right about that, and we the readers should not believe what the characters said after a whole book feeling the opposite way.

Something I didn't notice until my recent WoR reread (and as pointed out in @PhineasGage's essay which drew my attention to these things) is how much Kaladin is actually really attracted to Shallan from the get-go.  Even taking their boots and king's antechamber spats out of the picture (the obvious set-up), he definitely hates seeing her with Adolin (the menagerie scene; Syl remarks there that he's extremely unhappy and even asks why they would make him unhappy) and her poor opinion of him (scene just before the bridge collapses where she says he's hateful), and I think he's lying to himself about how much he feels in OB too (right up to and including this scene at the end.)

9 hours ago, enryu said:

Syl, on the other hand. Wow. Just wow. What she did in this book? I see this as basically the equivalent of repeatedly telling one of your friends to storm your other friend's fiancee. I thought Syl is supposed to be honorable? How is this sort of thing okay? At the end of the book, when she tells Kaladin that he only lost the first round, and he should give it another go? That's some real she-devil rust. 

Others have addressed why Syl doesn't understand the significance of the fact Adolin and Shallan are in a relationship even if they aren't married (oaths), but I don't think it's a coincidence that every time Syl pushes Shallan on Kaladin he rebuffs Syl's suggestions, but the one time he does something in response to Syl's goading (the conversation on the Reacher ship), that ends up in the "death knell" moment for Shalladin.  I don't think we're supposed to think Kaladin should insert himself and get in the way of Adolin and Shallan's relationship, and I think if (when....) Shallan and Kaladin finally get together, Adolin will be out of the picture, so it won't feel dishonorable.  On a more meta level, I think Syl is representing Kaladin's deeper feelings for Shallan, which of course he's trying to suppress because it's not right for him to be chasing a romantic relationship with his friend's girlfriend.

3 hours ago, Humming said:

The problem is that (in my opinion) Veil and Radiant sided with these new emotions flowing towards Kaladin, proving that Shallan is fractured almost as 3 independent individuals, and the Shallan that is in love with Adolin and rushes to a marriage because she suddenly felt the urge to, is denying that Veil and Radiant are part of her true self, as well as the feelings for Kaladin.

I agree with you that the most "immoral" action is that Shallan jumps into marriage when she's really not sure of it (as shown by integral parts of herself wanting something different.)  I don't consider this immoral myself, as this is how humans are sometimes - we deny feelings in order to make ourselves more certain of actions - but it is probably the most damaging of the "not being faithful" inclinations we see in the book as it will have the most lasting consequences on Shallan and Adolin's relationship.

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

I was sure of that even after just reading the talker composition... Is it really that one-sided?

Yeah, it's about as bad as you can imagine. It's this entire thread, only backwards. I couldn't get through it.

It was very much a Shalladin-hating personal opinion piece, but I think that's to be expected given the participants.  That's fine and all, and they only say they "discuss all aspects" of the triangle not that they are trying to present a balanced view of it. 

Ok, onto ketek posts!

14 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Maybe the "dying storms" are the consequence of Honor´s absence. Honor used to be a sort of moral compass. The storms and winds are linked with Honor many times. So the fact that there is "silence above" / Honor is not there causes the "dying storm"/lack of honorable acts, and that reveals the absence of Honor.

So I found this WoB which sorta kinda maybe confirms that the subject matter of the WoK ketek is about Honor's death.

Quote

Argent

The ketek in the first book ["Above the Silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above"], it seems like this refers to Honor's death.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

Argent

What does "Above the Silence" refer to?

Brandon Sanderson

Above a silent land. 

Argent

Hmm. Roshar, somehow? Okay, you're not gonna tell that.

And the second ketek, in Words of Radiance, similarly refers to the highstorm and the Everstorm... Is there more to it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's by Navani about the two [storms].

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/218-words-of-radiance-chicago-signing/#e6745

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

The ketek may be applied to a single character. My personal guess is that the ketek is actually meant to align most closely to the MC of it's book.

Ohhh, I really like this way of looking at them too!  I wish that (without telling us what they mean so we can keep pondering that) Brandon would give us some guidance on how deep he was taking the keteks when he drafted them.  They should pertain to the stated subject matter of the ketek (honor's death likely..., Everstorm arrival/highstorm clash, Adolin and Shallan marriage), and then a more superficial connection to the general flow of each part, and then I like your idea of pertaining to the MC, and I also think they can work related to the subject matter of the ketek in each part.  Possibly they are so thematically intertwined yet obtuse that it all works out.  Honestly one of the things I find frustrating about poetry interpretation in general is that as a student you're "told" a poem or line in a poem means "x", when maybe you can see that, but you can also see why "y" fits.  Unlike a book where I can usually piece together the hidden meaning (*cough* Shalladin *cough*), poetry will sometimes just baffle me in terms of what I'm supposed to get from it.

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I would suggest (purely from a Shalladin perspective of course) that this also indicates that Shalladin isn't finished - the "winds alight" to me references that Kal (wind) and Shallan (light) are intrinsically linked.

I love this, but since Adolin is "born unto light" may I humbly suggest that this is really pointing to Kadolin being our main romance  #kadolinforever

Edited December 19, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[evanna]

*waving* Hello, everyone, another newcomer here. To have any sort of a starting point, I've just looked through that brief summary (cool that there are stuff like that here!) of what you have been discussing so far. My first reaction was simply 'wow'. I know it's a little off-topic, but I have to say it - what you're doing in this place is absolutely amazing! I am more of a math person who prefers simple facts, so all of this theories and search for second meanings has always been a kind of a sorcery for me  But hey, it's never too late to try new things, right? 

Anyway!

I must admit I had supported this pairing in WoR a lot, I didn't feel like that anymore at the end of OB. I was actually glad with the ending. Shallan went... so weird here. She started to be so mean to Kaladin, that I actually found her annoying. It definitely had to do with Helaran issue, but somehow I completely didn't like how she coped with it. First of all, Shallan skipped the topic so easily that I was completely baffled. She will have to finally deal with it anyway. What would it be like? Grudge or reconciliation? I can't really tell with her current state of mind. Until this issue is unresolved I just don't see them together.

So, from my point of view Shalladin was done at the end of OB - with Kaladin's statement and Shallan's wedding. At least at this point of timeline there's nothing serious going on between them - I believe they're both too busy trying to handle their own twisted minds to actually be able to create a relationship anyway. As for the future, I haven't thought of it much yet. It only came to my mind that Adolin would have to die or turn evil, but that would be a completely new and complex story to read before we could even consider Kaladin and Shallan together. I think I would even like to see it that way, but I just feel sorry for Adolin whenever I consider that. 
 

And that last part of the summary! if you say that Brandon actually confirmed that Kal and Shallan are going to interact a lot in the future... hmm... this might prove... very interesting.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, evanna said:

It definitely had to do with Helaran issue, but somehow I completely didn't like how she coped with it. First of all, Shallan skipped the topic so easily that I was completely baffled. She will have to finally deal with it anyway.

Actually, I found, that that was so typically Shallan, that I wasn't even surprised.

[Dreamstorm]

37 minutes ago, evanna said:

I am more of a math person who prefers simple facts, so all of this theories and search for second meanings has always been a kind of a sorcery for me  But hey, it's never too late to try new things, right? 

Not love triangle related, but Brandon is a really good author for getting into the foreshadowing stuff.  He's an "outline" writer, so he's able to lay little hints better than writers who write as they go (so-called "discovery" writers), and he has stated he really loves giving his readers little clues about the upcoming plots twists.  You can look back at his language once a twist happens and see how it all unfolded and you were lead there as a reader, which is so fun.  (If you have kindle search "momentum" in WoK and WoR and see how it's always been tied to negative actions, which of course becomes explicit in OB.)  It makes his books so re-readable because you can see how these things are plotted out so far in advance.

37 minutes ago, evanna said:

And that last part of the summary! if you say that Brandon actually confirmed that Kal and Shallan are going to interact a lot in the future... hmm... this might prove... very interesting.

Whew, this took me a while, but here is the WoB on them "interacting together for the next few books" (from early-2015, so post-WoR but pre-OB.)  Btw, if there are any other unattributed sections of the document which jump out, please point them out!  It'd be great to have everything tied back to primary sources.

Quote

Questioner

Where did the idea to split The Way of Kings and to make it take place in multiple places come from?

Brandon Sanderson

The Way of Kings taking place with the different timelines? So Way of Kings I wrote, the very first version of it--in its contemporary form, I wrote the first book about Dalinar when I was a teenager--but the very first book called The Way of Kings I wrote in 2002 and I tried to cram way too much into that book. The big failing of that book was I tried to do everyone's story at once. And so when I re-wrote it in 2009, or whenever it was, I decided I would take the characters and spread them out across the 10 book series and I would focus on a certain set of them early on and then transition into other ones. But in order to maintain some of the complexity I like in my books, particularly big epic fantasies, I added in the flashback sequence, one per character per book as a means to adding some depth and complexity but using it to build up a character you already knew, rather than doing someone completely different. And so this kind of allowed me to tell the story the way I wanted to, by doing-- That did mean I still had to have two separate timelines because I needed to do Shallan and I needed to do Kaladin, 'cause I knew they were going to be important, interacting together for the next few books. Which did put me in two different places but that was much better than the six different places the original had. And it's just because I like complexity, I like a book that everything comes together at once.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-party/#e7080

 

[MonsterMetroid]

I keep thinking that this thread is done and somehow it keeps dragging me back in haha.

@SLNC and I agree on a lot of things

On 12/16/2017 at 4:34 AM, SLNC said:

Veil is extremely different from personaShallan. Almost the polar opposite. Especially regarding flaring passion and vivaciousness.

We have a WoK annotation, that Sanderson think this is far more "herself."

Quote

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin.

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8

From this I can only assume(!), that should reintegration occur, that Veil will be a much, much more character-defining part of realShallan. personaShallan won't be gone, but just not as character-defining as she is now.

There is a reason many relationships don't end well, when one partner changes so much, that the love just fizzles out. I'm not saying, that it is impossible, but even if Adolin still loves realShallan... How does realShallan think about it? Veil doesn't like Adolin as a romantic partner. There are always two sides to it.

Veil really feels like the part of Shallan that has the most truth to her to me. I actually made a whole post about it here:

 and I believe that Shallan will have to admit that some point soon and it will create a lot of questions and doubts in her mind. Which kind of leads me to return to a statement I made in another thread. 

I really would not surprise me if Shallan and Adolin get divorced. The fact we didn't even see the wedding and how rushed it feels really leads me to believe that this isn't over by a long shot and drama will follow.

[Humming]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Something I didn't notice until my recent WoR reread (and as pointed out in @PhineasGage's essay which drew my attention to these things) is how much Kaladin is actually really attracted to Shallan from the get-go.  Even taking their boots and king's antechamber spats out of the picture (the obvious set-up), he definitely hates seeing her with Adolin (the menagerie scene; Syl remarks there that he's extremely unhappy and even asks why they would make him unhappy) and her poor opinion of him (scene just before the bridge collapses where she says he's hateful), and I think he's lying to himself about how much he feels in OB too (right up to and including this scene at the end.)

Yeah, I didn't notice when I read the book that Kaladin is playing with a stone, just like Tien did. It was @PhineasGage who pointed it, I think, but it changed completely how I view now Kaladin's word. A powerful lie, as Pattern would say.

[Vissy]

@Humming Actually, curiously my immediate thought when reading the scene where Kaladin toyed with the stone and admitted to Syl that he accepted Shadolin... was that Kaladin was saying "she reminds me of someone... you." For some reason that came to my mind even before Tien, as a sporadic Syladin shipper xD

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I really would not surprise me if Shallan and Adolin get divorced. The fact we didn't even see the wedding and how rushed it feels really leads me to believe that this isn't over by a long shot and drama will follow.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. It feels like everyone expects Brandon to treat marriage very seriously and strictly, which he does, but to ignore divorce is to ignore a very large part of marriage, even if it's a part we don't like. It would be foolish to expect him to never broach this subject, and in fact he already has by bringing up what a taboo it is in Vorin cultures. 

Now off I go to post this in the new topic I see you posted about.

[Slay This Rock]

On 11/15/2017 at 0:13 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

 

• Unless I'm missing something, I don't think there was any reason given in text for the origins (or specifics) of Adolin's problems with forming long lasting romantic relationships. Can we consider this to be cured or mostly cured now? If so, why? If not, might it come up again in future? (I hope not as that would be really frustrating)

Well. I think Adolin tends to lose interest after a while and the past romances partner tends to be too single faced.  In that he and Shallan would be excellent together.  Plus the possibilities of lightweaving bed time activities...  Adolin have found himself quite a catch this time.

[Info_Drone-0451]

14 minutes ago, moejarv said:

Well. I think Adolin tends to lose interest after a while and the past romances partner tends to be too single faced.  In that he and Shallan would be excellent together.Plus the possibilities of lightweaving bed time activities... 

Shallan didn't have any single faced romances in the past. Just Kabsal, who got a lot more screen time that any of Adolin's relationships. And I can't see how something like that would make them excellent for each other. Previous failed romantic relationship would indicate possible failure in the future. We haven't seen Adolin taking a look on what didn't work in the past so he can work on fixing them, and if these issues don't resurface in the future because he found the right girl who magically fixed his problems, then what was the point of them? Just a cute plot device for his character? And a relationship needs match more than sexual attraction and playfulness in the bedroom (which I don't believe is something that BS will portay) to work, in my opinion.

14 minutes ago, moejarv said:

Adolin have found himself quite a catch this time.

I hope you said that in a playful and joking manner. Otherwise, the phrasing makes me a bit uncomfortable, and as Shallan stated she isn't anyones catch to be given away. Not to mention that in her current state of mind she isn't much of a catch, in my opinion.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by DimChatz