[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

7 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Kaladin blew it here, and he didn't even know it, didn't even realize.  His overwhelming attitude: not empathy, but one of "how can I be more like you, so that I can hide from my own pain.  He was done here, it was all over, I knew.  Almost to the end of the book, and finally one scene to see them interact in a positive and healthy way that didn't involve barbs, jokes, quirks, or other people there to witness, and it was this.

Oh well, journey before destination right?  It was fun doing the theorizing and debating while it lasted, but I'm pretty convinced that you have about as much chance of dredging that dead ship up as you do the Titanic.  It's sad, I'm probably never going to be able to read the chasm scene from WoR again.  

Oh, I've seen that. And I don't buy it.

I completely agree. Regarding the chasm scene mentioned by @DeployParachute I agree that it completely changes the impact of that sequence - which is a huge section of WoR for a period that covers such a short period of time. Surely such a gorgeous sequence can't be so ..... well lacking in overall impact?

With regards to how even the scene in OB with Shallan and Kaladin mentioned above is actually foreshadowed - remember that Sigzil wants to punch Kaladin (lightly) because Kal could be so oblivious - a word that is used to describe Shallan (as Veil) in a storming chapter title for her. And Kal seems particularly oblivious when it comes to women. He isn't lacking in empathy per se, it is just that he often rushes into assumptions (he is still rather young) before considering his words. He isn't actually that prejudicial - he lets women join the windrunners without too much issue, has no problems with Drehy being gay (though he frames his words exceedingly poorly about it), never seems to question the arrival of female radiants - or at least accepts them quickly, he doesn't judge Teft for being an addict and has even started to accept Elokhar and other lighteyes. 

However, in this scene when he and Shallan are discussing her ability to hide her pain away, I agree that Kaladin was reacting to his own pain - he was, understandably, thinking about his own situation. Remember he froze - literally the first time he'd completely lost it in battle for years - because he couldn't shut down his feelings. He watched his friends/protectees die because he couldn't function. Kal takes these things very badly. He tends to see himself as to blame for everything and in some ways, he is a little to blame here. I mean - not really because the fight wasnt his fault, but he led both groups of people to be in a position where they ended up fighting each other and he couldn't stop them. Its one of the things he still has to learn regarding leadership. Can anyone blame him for wanting to have, even just for a few moments, the ability to suppress that memory and pretend everything is alright? Shallan, perhaps, should have realised that - although I don't blame her for not given her own situation. It is just one of those terrible misunderstandings that occasionally happen that can drive people apart.

Will it be resolved? Perhaps - it is important, I think, that these two have a good working relationship. I'll be sorry to lose Shalladin because I still think they are better suited in the long run, but if it doesn't go that way, at least they should be friends. There are issues that likely need to be dealt with before that can happen

• Helaran's death - No, I do not believe we've dealt with that yet - its just been left at the back of Shallan's mind to fester
• Kaladin needs to progress and understand that hiding pain away is not the answer and that will likely happen as a consequence of him swearing the 4th Ideal
• Kaladin needs to be a little more empathetic, well, no, he has empathy, perhaps he needs to stop assuming things so quickly.
• Shallan,obviously, needs to progress as well. This is not likely to impact their relationship on a superficial level but does need to happen if she is to form lasting and fully developed relationships (not just romantic but all relationships). This will probably take longer - she's so broken at the moment.
• Shallan needs to understand why she chose Adolin. It isn't enough to choose someone because they feel safe. Sure its important to feel safe with your SO but it shouldnt be the only feeling. Her other emotions seem mostly related to passion rather than love. Choosing Adolin is not inherently wrong but I feel she's chosen him for the wrong reasons. That's not fair - mostly not fair to Adolin.

I think its also important to remember how quickly this is all happening. Dalinar only started getting the visions 6 months ago. Shallan arrived at the Shattered Plains approximately 2 months ago by my reckoning (she arrives just after Szeth attacks Dalinar). The whole of Oathbringer likely lasts only about 1 month. As a point, a month in Roshar is 50 days (each day being shorter than 1 Earth day)and there are 10 months in the year = 500 days per year and 1000 per full cycle (from lightday in the weeping to the next 2 years later). Mistakes will occur, both tactically and emotionally as they are running at full speed all the time.

 

[Guest]

So, there is something I've been thinking about, regarding how Veil and Radiant interacted in the pre-wedding scene. Veil seems to be the more independent minded part of Shallan, who, I think, doesn't really approve of Adolin's nature, aside from being a knowledgable drinker, and rather shies away from this whole marriage thing, which I think is also why she says: "He's good for you, I suppose." See, after that slip-up, she reverts back to saying we, but earns a glare by Radiant.

It almost seems like to me, that Radiant has been trying to convince Veil about Adolin in the background and Veil isn't really convinced at all. There was a scene in Kholinar (I think?), where Veil complains to the Deserters, that Shallan is too slow and stagnant. I wonder, if she sees Shallan marrying Adolin in the same light and is frustrated with that choice, but gets convinced into submission by Radiant... If Shallan is going to have doubts about Adolin it will be from Veil, I think. And I think she actually has less control about her personas than she thinks. 

At any rate, Adolin fell in love with a mask of Shallan, Veil, which she removed from her personality and thus this mask, doesn't seem to think he is right for herself (and thus the complete Shallan), can Adolin still love the complete Shallan? Or more importantly, will Shallan even be willing to reintegrate Veil and Radiant into herself, because she now feels a responsibility to keep the marriage happy?

[PhineasGage]

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

At any rate, Adolin fell in love with a mask of Shallan, Veil, which she removed from her personality and thus this mask, doesn't seem to think he is right for herself (and thus the complete Shallan), can Adolin still love the complete Shallan? Or more importantly, will Shallan even be willing to reintegrate Veil and Radiant into herself, because she now feels a responsibility to keep the marriage happy?

I agree. It is really important to understand that "alter" personalities in DID are not truly separate, they are all facets of the whole - a bit like sides of a coin are not really opposite - they are merely aspects of a 3D structure. Shallan, Veil and Radiant (plus any unknown facets) are all part of a single more complete personality. No single aspect is the "true" Shallan. Generally people with DID have emotional aspects and "apparently normal" aspects but each is usually incomplete because aspects are separated from each other. In this case, Veil (to me anyway) seems the most complete/normal because she has some emotional aspects but is mostly an apparently normal (ie functional) personality. Radiant is the least. Shallan seems to have divided herself into 1) the emotional aspect that feels and can acknowledge the pain of her past and feels emotions most strongly, 2) The apparently normal aspect (Veil) who has emotional understanding to a point but actually cannot handle serious emotional stress - any stress is deliberately pushed onto the Shallan persona so that it doesn't impact Veil's ability to funtion, 3) The pragmatic persona - the one who can do what is necessary without any emotional burden (ie Radiant) does not actually feel emotional responses - they are likely pushed subconsciously onto Shallan, but when an emotional response is needed in a functional context, Veil comes out. Radiant is the most appropriate when the emotional stress is too much for the Shallan persona to cope with. That's why when Jasnah goes to find Shallan in Thaylen City at the end, she grabs Radiant - Veil and Shallan can't cope with the death and destruction around her.

The issue is a truly functioning person will have moments of failure but will get over them - it may take years to manage it after serious trauma (which is different for different people - loss of a loved one affects people differently for example), but they will use multiple coping mechanisms. Shallan doesn't allow herself to fail properly - failures are pushed onto a specific aspect - usually the Shallan persona which is why Veil gets really lost when she realises that her feeding the people of Kholinar is actually harming them. She reverts to blackouts/time lapses at that point because she cannot rationalise it being Shallan's problem - because she internally divides Veil's actions from her own. I see no evidence that she is accepting that they are one person - indeed the wedding scene to me suggests it is getting worse.

I don't have DID but I can see why Shallan might divide things this way. Emotion can be really hard, particularly when confronting perceived failure. Kaladin proves this over and over again. He describes that person in him as "the wretch" and externalises it a little but at least he still acknowledges that it is him. She needs to function so she creates Veil to handle the hassles of daily life. The creation is complete/complex enough to manage multiple varying situations. Radiant is less complete but is built specifically to handle the immediate stress of severely traumatic situations, it is why we see Veil most in OB and Radiant the least. I must admit though that I am concerned that she is still having off screen blackouts (nb drawings she does without knowing) which suggest a 4th aspect that is not in communication with the others. Having an unknown, uncommunicative alter is VERY bad for prognosis unless she can open up lines of communication so she can bring it back into the fold. How can she become whole if she isnt even aware part of her is missing? Perhaps the drawings are part of an attempt to communicate with herself - look out for more in book 4 because they may hint at this. 

[Info_Drone-0451]

Ok a bit late but I'd like to chime in. I, well, feel strongly about the subject and, therefore, I might express my self too harshly.

Firstly, I find the whole Adolin-Shallan relationship to be the cheesiest and most shallow I've read in any BS novel, and indeed in any other novel but that's not saying much as I started reading heavily last year or so. Some have compared to a relationship in the Star Wars prequels and that might be a fair comparison, but it reminds of another relationship, which in my opinion is much worse and unfortunately much more comparable althouth it hasn't yet reached that level of cringe worthy and cheesy and I think never will. What I talking about, of course, is that awful ship in the tv show called Arrow, and those who have seen it will know what I'm talking about.

Secondly, I'm a bit peeved that another arranged marriage seemed to magiacally work again. I'm not trying to say that BS is trying to push it as a social belief or that he thinks that arranged marriages are good and work all the time, not at all and I want to be clear on this matter as I don't know his thoughts on the matter, and it's not the subject of this thread.  What I'm getting at, though, is that: should I just assume in the future that any arranged marriage will automatically work? Because that's just plain boring, as it removes all narrative tension on the matter of romance if we know the resolution beforehand, and I hope this will change in the future.

Lastly, as someone else has already said Kaladin, admittedly my favourite character,  is being set up for a life of lonely brooding and self-loathing. That's something I don't want to read because I find it dull and I'm, basically, Syl and I want to see him happy. Anyway, I don't think BS will do something like that as I don't think his novels are not known for their grimness but I neither want to see him become a deity or symbolic figure that is appart from the world, or something like that. A happy life with someone who cares and uplifts him emotionally will be enough, provided that he has solved his many issues.

Those are my thoughts on the matter, I hope I didn't appear to harsh and unfair.

Edited November 18, 2017 by DimChatz

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

I think is also why she says: "He's good for you, I suppose." See, after that slip-up, she reverts back to saying we, but earns a glare by Radiant.

I meant to comment on this previously- I totally agree with you. Radiant's glare could easily be multilayered- 1) Dont make Shallan mess this up NOW the wedding is literally moments away, 2) the decision is made, tough it out, 3) shut up shut up shut up dont let her see we are actually one being - i like my autonomy.

Radiant to me seems the coldest, most pragmatic and most selfish of the 3 personas weve seen. Selfishness is part of every person, and is not inherently bad unless it acts without other more benevolent actions to compensate - selfishness allows us all as individuals to survive sometimes when selflessness wouldnt but is not healthy or nice if not tempered. If Shallan has pushed her normal selfishness onto Radiant, she is less selfish as Veil or Shallan, but Radiant doesnt have the traits that make both Shallan and Veil likeable and decent as people in themselves.

10 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

What I talking about, of course, is that awful ship in the tv show called Arrow, and those who have seen it will know what I'm talking about.

I'm afraid i dont know this one - any chance you can either summarise it in a spoiler tag for me or point me to where i can get some idea - without having to watch the series. I'm not really a TV person.

I think you put yourself well without sounding harsh. I hope we aren't alienating the Shadolin team because that certainly isnt my goal and I dont think anyone here wants to add to the rift that seems to have formed between Shadolin/Shalladin shippers. For what its worth, most people here, regardless of preference prior to OB seem to feel that Shallan's choice does Adolin no real credit - credit he deserves, he's a good bloke, but "winning" the girl seems a bit of a Pyrrhic victory in this case  

[Info_Drone-0451]

On 16/11/2017 at 0:22 AM, Harbour said:

At this point i actually prefer Kaladin to stay alone. As someone mentioned before he is more matured and ill tell more - Kaladin overgrew the relationships with girls.

Its in the way BS depicted Adolin and Shallan - simple boy and girl, a simple people with their flaws and desire to be happy - and Kaladin, hovering above the ground observing the world from the sky like a godlike sentry, thinking about how to save the world. Everything is in that contrast in these last chapters.

Kaladin no more belongs to that kind of relationships until hell find out someone really fitting. He just has Great Deeds to make to even be bothered by some love stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with it after OB. Kaladin is strong enough to carry the world and he has Syl to be comforted.

 

That's quite fair, actually. And I can see that happening and despite it not being something I want see I'll be fine with it, but at least I hope the whole depression and self depreciation aspect is solved.

[Info_Drone-0451]

Quote

I'm afraid i dont know this one - any chance you can either summarise it in a spoiler tag for me or point me to where i can get some idea - without having to watch the series. I'm not really a TV person

I'm not sure how to do that, and that comparison is a bit harsh as the relationship I'm referring to is much more awful by a factor of a 1000.

Quote

I hope we aren't alienating the Shadolin team because that certainly isnt my goal and I dont think anyone here wants to add to the rift that seems to have formed between Shadolin/Shalladin shippers. For what its worth, most people here, regardless of preference prior to OB seem to feel that Shallan's choice does Adolin no real credit - credit he deserves, he's a good bloke, but "winning" the girl seems a bit of a Pyrrhic victory in this case

Oh certainly, but so far I think everyone has been quite fair and understanding, and it' s a discussion after all, so everyone can chime in. Let's all solve all our issues together. I think the whole situation hasn't turned into a post-apocalyptic hellscape of childish behavior and name-calling, and I'm quite astounded by the maturity shown here, which is not the case for other forums I've been to when discussing such matters.

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, DimChatz said:

I think the whole situation hasn't turned into a post-apocalyptic hellscape of childish behavior and name-calling

Give it time  I may be a cynic. I remember the Harry-Ron-Hermione debacle first hand.... Although to be fair, even that wasnt as bad as the Good-Snape vs Bad-Snape discussions!

[Info_Drone-0451]

 

1 minute ago, PhineasGage said:

Give it time  I may be a cynic. I remember the Harry-Ron-Hermione debacle first hand.... Although to be fair, even that wasnt as bad as the Good-Snape vs Bad-Snape discussions!

 BTW, I sent you a PM, to clear a few things about your request. I hope that's allowed and it isn't viewd as too forward.

[PhineasGage]

Just now, DimChatz said:

I hope that's allowed and it isn't viewd as too forward.

For the record, anyone can PM me - its not like you came to my front door lol!

[Darvys]

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

Shallan says that Kaladin encouraged her to hide herself. He didn't. It was all assumption by Shallan.

Can you point me to where Shallan comments on her discussion with Kaladin ? i have trouble finding it.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Can you point me to where Shallan comments on her discussion with Kaladin ? i have trouble finding it.

Sure.

Quote

Kaladin landed on a roof in the distance, still looking the other way. Adolin waved toward him. “Shallan. He can literally fly.” “Oh? And is that what women are supposed to seek in a mate? Is it in the Polite Lady’s Handbook to Courtship and Family? The Bekenah edition, maybe? ‘Ladies, you can’t possibly marry a man if he can’t fly.’ Never mind if the other option is as handsome as sin, kind to everyone he meets regardless of their station, passionate about his art, and genuinely humble in the weirdest, most confident way. Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away. Never mind if being near him makes you want to rip his shirt off and push him into the nearest alleyway, then kiss him until he can’t breathe anymore. If he can’t fly, then well, you just have to call it off!”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three (Kindle Locations 23511-23518). Chapter 121

Which I find so confusingly ironic, that Adolin apparently encourages Shallan to be herself (or more - her mask) and now becomes friends with Veil. It is so mindboggling.

Edited November 18, 2017 by SLNC

[Darvys]

@SLNC Thanks ! I had assumed she was simply refering to herself there, but yeah it would make sense if it was also obliquely adding a line to her lousy "Kaladin is a no go" argument. All of this is too much for me to believe in a "they lived happily ever after" for the two of them, I do believe Kaladin is out of the romantic picture, and honestly that's good for him, but the Adolin-Shallan duo is heading straight for a wall.

I don't know what i want for Kaladin going forward, we all want him to be happy and find balance, but Syl's way isn't necessarily the only one, i wouldn't mind if he turned into a solitary symbol one step below a deity, so long as he is somehow fulfilled by the role and not simply suffering through it.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Darvys

[PhineasGage]

I personally want Kaladin to pair up with someone. Not because I think it is necessary for a character arc, but because I think it is "normal". Dalinar is basically Honor at this moment - or something like that, and he is paired off with Navani. Storms, even Honor had a thing with Cultivation. It looks like Shallash was paired with Taln - or I might be going too far with that, and obviously Jezrien had a SO at some point because he had a daughter who it looks like he was close to. Why should Kaladin be the only one standing apart doing his "sentinel thing". I think this is just Shallan trying to convince herself yet again that Adolin is the better bet. I don't mind if she genuinely thinks he is, but I get the feeling she is trying too hard to convince herself of that. The lady doth protest to much.....?

And before anyone mentions Jasnah being likely to be alone, I can get behnd that idea because she is so solitary on so many levels already - not out of a desire to avoid it seems, but simply because she hasn't found an equal and would rather be alone than settle for second best. That seems a perfectly sensible position but it might get repetitive if too many Radiants run celibate. 

[Harbour]

I actually wonder what stands out in Kaladin that makes Shallan almost dislike him and make fun of him. I mean, its not only Adolin's perfection and kind nature that attract Shallan but definitely also something repulsive in Kaladin to make her never consider him as the real candidate.

Is it his prejudice towards light eyes and bouts of depression?

Maybe she has too much depressing stuff in her life to pair with depressing guy?

Also i wonder how the things could go if Shallan wasn't betrothed with Adolin. How much these shackles influenced her decisions and behavior? Because in actuality she never consider Kaladin as the real option. He always was more of forbidden fruit she never expected to bite.

I also noticed that in OB Kaladin mostly gave up on banter with Shallan. Most of her jokes he met with a sigh. She even noticed that mentioning it in Part 4 (something like "You dont like a good banter i see" or something). I wonder what is it. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Harbour

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I also noticed that in OB Kaladin mostly gave up on banter with Shallan. Most of her jokes he met with a sigh. She even noticed that mentioning it in Part 4 (something like "You dont like a good banter i see" or something). I wonder what is it. 

Probably maintaining respectful distance because Adolin was with them. Alone? I didn't see any difference from before.

For instance, after the botched infiltration of the palace.

Quote

She slipped out, and found herself at the base of the rise that the palace sat upon, a cliff of some twenty feet above her. The guards were distracted, walking to her right, so Veil slipped onto a street nearby, then ran for a short time, thankful to finally have a chance to work off some of her energy.

She collapsed in the shadow of a hollow building, with the windows broken open and the door missing. Pattern scooted along the ground nearby, joining her. The guards didn’t seem to have noticed her.

“Go find Kaladin,” she said to Pattern. “Bring him here. Warn him that soldiers might be watching him from the palace, and they might come for him.”

“Mmmm.” Pattern slid away from her. She huddled against herself, back to a stone wall, her coat still covered in blood. After a nerve-racking wait, Kaladin stepped onto the street, then hurried up to her. “Storms!” he said, kneeling beside her. Pattern slipped off his coat, humming happily. “Shallan, what happened to you?”

“Well,” she said, “as a connoisseur of things that have killed me, I think a sword happened.”

“Shallan . . .”

“The evil force that rules the palace did not think highly of someone coming with a letter from the king.” She smiled at him. “You could say, um, it made that point quite clear.”

Smile. I need you to smile.

I need what happened to be all right.

Something that can simply roll off me. Please.

“Well . . .” Kaladin said. “I’m glad we . . . took a stab at this anyway.” He smiled.

It was all right. Just another day, another infiltration. He helped her to her feet, then looked to check on her wound, and she slapped his hand. The cut was not in an appropriate location.

“Sorry,” he said. “Surgeon’s instincts. Back to the hideout?”

“Yes, please,” she said. “I’d rather not be killed again today. It’s quite draining. . . .”

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by SLNC

[Nef]

Wow, having just finished the book, reading this thread has been cathartic as many of you have helped me crystallize my own thoughts on the love triangle. Like others have expressed, I was also left deeply unsatisfied with the conclusion of the love triangle at the end of the OB, which is a testament to Sanderson's ability to create characters that I'm inordinately invested in.

Now, although I feel that the conclusion of the love triangle was sudden and I was hoping for more development, I do hope the love triangle has really ended. Mainly because, although I'm less than satisfied with how we got there, I think Shallan is better off with Adolin. I just think that Kaladin and Shallan don't fit together. In my mind Kaladin is simply operating on a different level to Shallan. His thoughts are so altruistic and he asks himself philosophical and theological questions that Shallan, even if she wanted to, probably can't concern herself about because she's dealing with her serious psychological issues. Shallan clearly needs someone willing to dedicate themselves to supporting her through her issues and Kaladin stretches himself too thin to be that person.

That said, I was previously a Shallan x Kaladin shipper just because I really like the idea of a Radiant power couple. It would provide us with a much different dynamic to our other main couple of Dalinar and Navani whereby one member tends to funcation mainly as an emotional support and tends to unquestionably abide by the directives of the more "important" member. The Shallan and Adolin couple is shaping up to be much the same in my mind; Shallan clearly decides on Adolin because he can emotionally support her and Adolin sees himself as the less important member of the couple.

I imagined a Kaladin and Shallan power couple acting more as equals and the relationship being an exploration of conflicting ideas and compromise (and cool scenes where the couple has each others' backs on the battlefield). With Shallan taken, hopefully Kaladin can find an nice Radiant life partner, or even just a normal life partner...it would be really sad if my favorite character ends up alone .

Edited November 18, 2017 by Nef

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

I also noticed that in OB Kaladin mostly gave up on banter with Shallan. Most of her jokes he met with a sigh. She even noticed that mentioning it in Part 4 (something like "You dont like a good banter i see" or something). I wonder what is it. 

I read this as Kaladin getting mildly frustrated by her tendency to make light of situations - I think he and Jasnah likely share the opinion that wit and humour are best used both in moderation rather than just saying the first vaguely clever thing that comes to mind. He is, like @SLNC points out, quite happy to banter when it is either necessary - as in the above mentioned scene, or when it is genuinely funny. Shallan is generally funnier (imo) when she is relaxed. Her sense of humour is forced when she's stressed. I think Kaladin might be picking up on this. He remarks something about her trying too hard when they are in the chasms together in WoR. 

On top of that, Kaladin is not in the mood to joke around for much (if any) of part 4 - he's worried about the people he left behind in Kholinar, he's worried about Dalinar, he's worried about Syl, he's worried about being in Shadesmar, he's worried about the Fused that are chasing them, the list goes on. He is more likely to manage humour only when he in a good/relaxed mood, or when someone he cares about really needs him to. We regularly see him force a smile for members of bridge four.

17 minutes ago, Nef said:

I imagined a Kaladin and Shallan power couple acting more as equals and the relationship being an exploration of conflicting ideas and compromise (and cool scenes where the couple has each others' backs on the battlefield).

I still want this. BS said he likes conflict in relationships - I think he meant that he doesnt just want all rainbows and cake, not angry/hateful actions as part of relationships. I think Shallan (when she gets her issues sorted out) is a better match with Kaladin than Adolin and I'd hate her to lose respect for her life partner because of a silly decision made in her teens. I think it would be very interesting to get more info on why Navani chose Gavilar despite it being pretty obvious that she had a thing for Dalinar from his flashbacks (at least I thought so). I know she said she found Dalinar too intense, and certainly Shallan has thought the same thing about Kaladin but I would love to get  a deeper read on the Navani/Dalinar/Gavilar situation.

 

As very much a side issue, has anyone read anything about the frankly odd situation that Kaladin's name not only sounds light-eyed but also fits the Kholin pattern. I was looking through and he seems to look nothing like his father Lirin. I had a mild pet theory that I'd never bothered researching before because I thought something might come out in OB if I was right. It is a theory that Kaladin is actually the illegitimate son of Gavilar. Its based on no real evidence beyond a tendency for Kaladin to be treated like family by the Kholin house (esp Dalinar, who is frequently "paternal" towards him), Zahel comparing him to Adolin, Wit comparing him to Dalinar, and a scene where Shallan says something like "At least I know my parentage" to him. If anyone knows about WoB or other source that addresses this i'd be most grateful.

[Starla]

@PhineasGage There is a WOB on the subject of Kaladin's parentage. Lirin and Hesina are his bio-parents. (Link)

That said, I think there is something interesting in Hesina's lineage. My guess is that she has some lighteyed family members. I'll be curious to learn more about her at some point.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Starla
typo

[PlanetReelo]

I'm trying to remember the last time I was so disappointed by the outcome of a love triangle, yet unsurprised. 

I went in to this book knowing that shadolin was the likely outcome so I mentally prepared myself for it. Mostly because that fandom is by far the largest/most vocal, so the cynic in me considered that BS may pander to it, but also because it fits with his trope of arranged marriages working out as many on this thread have stated. But I hoped to have one of two main outcomes in OB. That Shallan and Kaladin have a meaningful interaction the way they did in the chasms in WoR (even if they didn't end up together) or that BS would start forming a deeper connection for Adolin and Shallan, such that I would feel accepting of the progression of the story in their direction. And neither of these things happened.

Shallan and Adolin stayed as superficial and cheesy as they always have been. Whilst in WoR all I had felt towards them was varying degrees of boredom, I found myself actively cringing at the things they said to each other in OB. It felt as though some of the sweet nothings they would say to each other were over the top romantic for the place their relationship is actually at (which is early on), and I found this jarring to read and more than a little embarrassing.

What I may have disliked the most was the downplaying of Shallan's feelings towards Kaladin as meerly leching by Veil. What then was the chasm scene - one of the most beautiful and subtle romantic scenes that BS has ever written? If BS is capable of writing a scene as rich with nuanced emotion as that one, why has he not done so for adolin and shallan?

I haven't gathered all my thoughts completely as I've just finished reading it, but I think I'll have to have a reread of certain sections before I go in to more depth on the topic.

[Harbour]

17 minutes ago, PlanetReelo said:

What then was the chasm scene - one of the most beautiful and subtle romantic scenes that BS has ever written? If BS is capable of writing a scene as rich with nuanced emotion as that one, why has he not done so for adolin and shallan?

Yep, that was one of the main reasons i was disappointed too. To write such a powerfull scene and then bring that to "Hunter/Rogue/Amazon-like Veil just want some savage barbarian" trope is just beyond me. 

That, and also Adolin/Shallan weird resolution makes me wondering - what thoughts had alpha, beta-readers and numerous editors on that part. Its not that we all here were nitpicking. Pairings are pretty important part of any entertaining book, and i dont believe all of them thought that was a very right-written resolution.  Some of all these people should have pointed at lame looking pairing lines.

Thats another reason why i think everything we talking about (besides some really bad written parts) is BS intention, not lame writing.

It doesnt make me feel better, nor make pairings look better though.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Harbour

[PhineasGage]

16 minutes ago, PlanetReelo said:

If BS is capable of writing a scene as rich with nuanced emotion as that one, why has he not done so for adolin and shallan?

This this this this this. Did I mention this? I would be totally in the Shadolin ship if this were true. I am still not sure why the Shadolin ship is bigger/noisier - I mean Adolin is great but deserves to be treated better than Shallan sometimes does. She can be a bit patronising to him and whilst he may lack education is some areas and be "mentally direct" he is not a fool. I appreciate that  people want to see him happy, but does it have to be Shallan. This, I suppose is true of Kaladin as well. If the Shalladin thing is off I at least hope he writes equally beautiful sequences for Kaladin + X in the future. I want that depth of feeling.

2 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Thats another reason why i think everything we talking about (besides some really bad written parts) is BS intention, not lame writing.

Im prepared to assume it is all good writing and deliberate. We've still got 2 books to go in this arc, notwithstanding the possibility of some stories continuing into the back 5. If Shallan/Adolin get some well written sequences, I'll be jumping ship. I cannot believe that he would pander to the crowd though, he'd lose so much integrity as an author. Plus he'd annoy loads of people, even Shadolin fans because so much time was given in the books towards pushing/foreshadowing Shalladin.

[discorat]

 

Kaladin was only ever happy and smiley with Shallan honestly :/ When his bridge was safe, he was safe, and calm but it don't remember him being truly, freely happy- Thats why i wanted him together with Shallan :/ I honestly thought they'd end up together, because i've been able to know whos gonna end up with who since its been the best choice...i don't know if this was the best choice though. It didn't feel like the best choice, it felt like the cleanest choice. Like Shallan and Adolin ending up happy ever after and Kaladin sad and lonely on the side. Black and White. What was always supposed to happen, anyways, right?

It wasn't like: (mistborn era 1 & era 2 spoilers)

 

Vin and Elend- where they had difficulties, they were both different ranks in society etc. They had difficulties in their relationship, it wasn't 'bland'.

or like Steris+Wax, where they had difficulties from the very beginning, it wasn't bland. They grew to love eachother and learned eachothers differences

 

That's why i'm more oppossed to Adolin/shallan, because its so different from his other relationships imo. Sure, we all knew whos gonna end up with who in his other books, too, but those couples were more exciting and more close in a way, whereas Adolin+Shallan literally just feel like two rich lighteyes in an arranged marriage. 

 

Whatever. I accept it, if that's what Sanderson has chosen- the rest of the book was great. I will accept this because the series isn't over yet.

9

Edited November 18, 2017 by Discofrish

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

so much time was given in the books towards pushing/foreshadowing Shalladin.

Especially, because it continues after the fact that Adolin and Shallan is getting married for reasons you already supplied. Annoys me to no end. If it is done, let it rest.

[discorat]

28 minutes ago, PlanetReelo said:

What I may have disliked the most was the downplaying of Shallan's feelings towards Kaladin as meerly leching by Veil. What then was the chasm scene - one of the most beautiful and subtle romantic scenes that BS has ever written? If BS is capable of writing a scene as rich with nuanced emotion as that one, why has he not done so for adolin and shallan?

3

ugh, exactly? I just  dont understand . I've always felt ''woah these two really understand eachother on a level other than just superficial romance'' for all of sandersons pairings, so why don't i feel like it for Shallan/Adolin? why do i feel like Shallan and Adolin are superficial? I just don't get it.

 

Plus, the only thing Shallan feeling for Kaladin - the dark, moody slave is some 'exotic rebellious rich lighteyed' feelings, just doesn't feel right to me. I'd love for them to actually be together, it would be so healthy. Plus, Shallan reminding Kaladin of his little brother isn't something necessarily bad for their romantic relationship. Romance isn't just about attraction & all that superficial stuff. Shallan reminding him of Tien was super cute