[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[RShara]

So on a quick Google search, managing to talk to your alters and getting them to act through the original personality, instead of just taking over, is actually an important step.

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

Staying Shallan, while being able to draw on Veil and Radiant's abilities and knowledge (even vocally or with mental words), I think is actually a sign of progress. 

 

It also reminds me of Brandon's other series, Legion.  He seems to have researched Dissociative Personality Disorder quite extensively.

I, too, was reminded of Legion. I disagree on whether that comparison means progress for Shallan, though. I don't recall the Legion series as portraying Stephen as of particularly sound mind.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Amended said:

What it is NOT is the downward spiral she spent a good chunk of OB in where if a persona couldn’t handle a issue in a certain way Shallan would create a new persona or intermix them, leading to an excess that was leading to her to not having a clue of any unifying features or what made her her. No new persona was made to handle this particular situation.

This happened exactly once. When she created Radiant. After that it was just Shallan, Veil and Radiant. She already used them consciously.

[Harbour]

Im looking forward to see more of Adolin reaction on every random conversation or glance between Kaladin and Shallan in the Book 4.

Actually, with him letting Shallan to practically force him into these relationships in the very end of the OB (probably) gonna end up badly for him.

I bet Shallan didn't make him totally be okay with the fact that Kaladin and Shallan shared something he and Shallan didn't.

If he'd stay away from Shallan he would be able relatively easy to deal with it.

But now, as her husband... oh boy, i wish him luck cause he is a good guy.

I dont want him to fight against himself and remind himself "But Shallan said i shouldn't worry" every time he feels something happened.

BS can easily ignore that path though. I think he won't. Its a essential behavior in the human's case. You just can't ignore that. It will boggle you subconsciously.

Also i wonder how Kaladin will deal with that. In the end of OB BS didn't make too much emphasis on this matter. I guess Kaladin gonna ignore them, probably will try to stay away from them most the time.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Harbour

[Amended]

@SLNC I’ll concede that she wasn’t creating a flat out new persona during that, but the persona-ception with Shallan painted over Veil or Radiant over Veil did create sub-personas that was triggering roughly the same crisis. Given enough time, another full persona may have arisen.

[Guest]

Just now, Amended said:

I’ll concede that she wasn’t creating a flat out new persona during that, but the persona-ception with Shallan painted over Veil or Radiant over Veil did create sub-personas that was triggering roughly the same crisis. Given enough time, another full persona may have arisen.

Can still happen. We'll have to see her in a stressful situation.

[RShara]

14 minutes ago, Elsvette Mintyfresh said:

I, too, was reminded of Legion. I disagree on whether that comparison means progress for Shallan, though. I don't recall the Legion series as portraying Stephen as of particularly sound mind.

Well, as a newly minted internet-expert*, it seems that being able to communicate with your alters, instead of them just taking over, and recognizing when they *do* take over, is an important step toward re-integration.

 

*Heavy sarcasm here, just spent a few minutes on the google lol

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Well, as a newly minted internet-expert*, it seems that being able to communicate with your alters, instead of them just taking over, and recognizing when they *do* take over, is an important step toward re-integration.

 

*Heavy sarcasm here, just spent a few minutes on the google lol

I saw your google-fu after posting that last comment. As I'm not even an expert of the internet variety, I'll concede that maybe it is progress. Only another 3 years until we all know for sure!

[RShara]

Brandon needs a Slider with a huge cache of bendalloy.  So that he can write faster in less time.

[PhineasGage]

14 minutes ago, RShara said:

Brandon needs a Slider with a huge cache of bendalloy.  So that he can write faster in less time.

You mean even faster? I mean given that he's been published for 12 years and had more than 20 books published in that time. *cough cough George RR Martin and Patrick Rothfuss *cough. 

So I just want to go back to the DID thing a little bit and add some depth after some further reading. I have put loads of info in the spoiler below but please be warned, DID is really nasty as a condition, so if you are in any way worried about the content which relates in part to causes, triggers and treatment, I'd recommend you don't read it. 

Spoiler

I am studying medicine so I have access to some info that is probably not available without signing up for stuff/payment so I'll just write a synopsis here with regards to DID (nb most of this is medscape and NICE in the UK). Please note I am not a doctor and I have no particular background in psychology or psychiatry beyond what has been included in my training thus far. Please do NOT assume anything I write here regarding it should be applied to any particular real patient. Real people need to see real doctors when they are unwell.

After that disclaimer ; DID is normally caused by severe and chronic childhood trauma, which may include physical and sexual abuse and/or neglect, episodes of extreme terror, and/or repeated medical trauma. Given Sanderson's tendency to right at a PG level I think we should assume a more physical/emotional/neglect abuse situation for Shallan. This abuse likely pre-dates her mother's death. DID is less common if the abuse happens in later childhood.

DID is very like PTSD in that it often has flashbacks and periods of amnesia. Shallan definitely gets the amnesia - both in that she loses track of time multiple times and finds drawings that she cannot remember doing. The flashbacks may not occur or could be how we as readers get them in WoR. 

Treatment is complicated. That said its ultimate goal is to confront the abuse, and develop ways to process the memories. This usually takes a very long time. Before that can even be started, the patient needs to develop adequate coping mechanisms for stressors. Most patients will describe feelings that trigger their dissociative behaviour (eg going numb, blacking out, switching to a secondary personality state). These are often anxiety related feelings and may occur in contexts completely unrelated to the original abuse indeed the longer it is untreated, the more likely they are to occur even when confronting "normal" anxiety provoking stimuli (eg going on stage/giving a talk to people/going on a date). Each person will have their own specific triggers as well as some more generalised ones and the will have varied coping techniques, some of which are 'maladaptive' in that they are potentially harmful to the patient or people around them.

So we have to spend ages finding the things that trigger dissociation, then spend ages helping the person learn new coping mechanisms for their anxiety, then start letting them use them in a wider variety and only then can they start to consider addressing the abuse. At every step of the way the patient has to have control because the dissociative states tend to worsen whenever the patient feels that they are losing control - because it is an anxiety inducing situation. Some people may never get to the final step but manage to control their anxiety well enough to get back to a normal life, albeit often with pharmacological help.

Adequate coping mechanisms do not usually include allowing the emergence of the secondary personalities as this reinforces the maladaptive behaviour. That said, it is often necessary for the patients to do this as they begin their recovery because you can't just switch off something that is so ingrained as a coping mechanism. Essentially, all coping mechanisms are like any other habit - and breaking a habit - even one that is healthy, is extremely difficult. In this case, the secondary states are considered maladaptive because they impair the person's ability to function normally - that is work (if they want to), have relationships (not necessarily romantic, but also friendships), manage their basic needs etc. They also impair a person's ability to choose to use a different coping mechanism. Of course, if a person is recieving therapy it is currently believed (with pretty good evidence) that the therapist should engage with all facets of the personality to help these aspects communicate but they need to be aware that they are all facets of the whole and not identify them too strongly as individuals.

For example, most of us here will have multiple coping mechanisms that we use. The method we use will depend on our personalities as well as the thing we need to cope with. Eg I am afraid of spiders so when I see one I run away. This is an adequate (not a great one mind you) coping mechanism for this environment. It might also be appropriate in other stressful environments but is no good if I have to give a presentation that will form part of a grade at school. If the only coping mechanism I have is running away then that coping mechanism is also maladaptive because I cannot adapt how I cope. Secondary states usually mean that the person has no other coping mechanisms available to them so they dissociate no matter the issue. They may dissociate in different ways though.

Additional background info can be found in this leaflet: https://patient.info/doctor/a-brief-guide-to-working-with-dissociative-identity-disorder#nav-5

So thinking about Shallan. We see her dissociate in a couple of ways, the blackouts/timelapses and the secondary states. Her secondary states are well developed and have distinct identities. All of them are aware of each other. The Prime personality is most likely Shallan, but it is possible that is also a secondary one born out of need when she was a child. Secondaries arent like in the movies where they always have different names etc. They can have different names but sometimes its more like "Good PhineasGage" or "Dark PhineasGage". It depends on the person. If we assume Shallan is the prime, then she needs treatment. 

This is where it gets really interesting from the Stormlight perspective. Adolin is right to engage with all of Shallan's alters but he needs to be clear that they are not separate from Shallan - they are her. He also needs to be clear with her that he sees them as part of her but do so in a non-confrontational/aggressive manner. More importantly, if he identifies them too strongly as individuals he may only make things worse. Obviously if she were a real patient, she'd have a therapist who was not in a romantic relationship with her because trust issues are a massive feature of DID because of the huge abuse often suffered by the victims. Even with a fully trained therapist however, the issues of transference and counter-transference are always a potential pitfall.

 

[RShara]

Wow great info there.  So the long and short of it is, we don't have enough info to know if Adolin will help or harm, or whether Shallan is starting on a recuperative path or not.

[PhineasGage]

18 minutes ago, RShara said:

Wow great info there.  So the long and short of it is, we don't have enough info to know if Adolin will help or harm, or whether Shallan is starting on a recuperative path or not.

Well I'd be inclined to go with harm over help because he seems to be identifying Veil as separate - but we have limited info on that and Shallan is likely an unreliable narrator anyway. If, however, he helps her find more adaptive ways of coping then he'll be helping. 

With regards to Shallan starting on her recovery, I'd say she is - in a way, Pattern is her therapist, helping her identify truths of her past and come to terms with them. Unfortunately, his lack of understanding of humans and human behaviour means he can only be somewhat helpful. Shallan really needs to identify that she is not to blame for what her mother tried to do - and any other damage her parents may have done before that - and accept that it wsn't her fault that her father turned into a monster too. I mean she needs to take responsibility for killing him, obviously, but his descent into the person he became after his 1st wife's death was not Shallan's fault and I don't think she realises that yet. 

The issue is that sometimes these things get worse before they get better - especially if additional stresses are placed on a person once they've started the process. That's definitely happened to Shallan. She might have been ok if the WInd's Pleasure hadnt sunk and Jasnah had made it to the Shattered Plains with her, but the stress of the shipwreck and the threats against her during her trip to the Shattered Plains and then dealing with the GhostBloods are huge stressors - and thats before we even have her deal with Unmade. After recovering Pattern and speaking truths about both her father and mother's deaths - both things that she is still coming to terms with - its hardly surprising she's doing this - she's just shifted from the black-out/lapses she had as a child into full on secondaries.

[DeployParachute]

Not to do much rehashing of many things that have already been said by others, but as a big Shalladin shipper in the immediate aftermath of WOR, I can't say that I feel very...satisfied with how OB dealt with this particular minor plot line.  Unfortunately, to me, this was the thing that I posted most about following WoR, and indeed, it was the only thing that actually had me signing up to post on the forums in the first place.  Seriously, I never bothered to discuss books in an online forum format before that.  I felt very invested in learning more about that particular romantic entanglement plot line, and hoped to see more of it, and as a result, even though this was like, 0.001% of the story in OB, I feel it has disproportionately impacted my overall satisfaction with the ending of this particular book.  Much like @maxal Had discussed how the Book One preview chapters were having her down on the overall tone of the book and its treatment of Adolin, I can't help but feel a little let down once I got through OB in it's entirety.

It's not the fact that Adolin and Shallan ended up married and happy together.  I like them both, and would be happy for them had the build up been handled differently.  It's just that the writing up to that point seemed to have been indicating something more complicated, something more nuanced, and something that was going to forge the development of these 3 characters in ways that was sure to have more emotional churn and conflict.  By the end of it, I just couldn't help but to have this feeling of loss and disappointment that something I had been eagerly awaiting reading about, and had been teased not just by the writing, but by the author in comments to fans just didn't materialize the way it had been set up.  You could have taken the attractions and interactions between Shallan and Kaladin and completely removed them from the book, and it would have had absolutely zero impact on where they ended up in their own personal narratives, and their own understanding of each other and their interpersonal relationships with others.  I just have this overwhelming question of why?  Why was it written this way?  To what purpose did it serve?  It just feels hollow.

I kept reading this book, eagerly turning the pages and enjoying the vast narrative that was unfolding, but always at the back of my mind, there was this nagging voice that would always say "maybe the next Shallan chapter, we'll see that connection again, maybe when Kaladin has a chance to pause and think, we'll see more of what was hinted and teased at, the next chapter, the next chapter, the next chapter.  And it just never came, not really.  

And then I came across it, the final confirmation of the scuttling of the S.S. Shalladin:

Spoiler

   "How do you do it, Shallan? How do you keep smiling and laughing?  How do you keep from fixating on the terrible things that have happened?"

   "I cover them up.  I have this uncanny ability to hide away anything I don't want to think about.  It ... it's getting harder, but for most things I can just..." She trailed off, staring straight ahead.  "There. Gone."

  "Wow."

  "I know," she whispered.  "I'm crazy."

  "No. No, Shallan! I wish I could do the same."

  She looked at him, brow wrinkling.  "You're crazy."

  "How nice would it be, if I could simply shove it all away? Storms."  He tried to imagine it.  Not spending his life worrying about the mistakes he'd made.  Not hearing the constant whispers that he wasn't good enough, or that he'd failed his men.

  "This way, I'll never face it," Shallan said.

  "It's better than being unable to function."

  "That's what I tell myself." She shook her head.  "Jasnah said that power is an illusion of perception.  Act like you have authority, and you often will.  But pretending fragments me.  I'm too good at pretending."

  "Well, whatever you're doing, it's obviously working.  If I could smother these emotions, I'd do so eagerly."

  She nodded, but fell silent, then resisted all further attempts to draw her into conversation.
 

Sanderson, Brandon. “Chapter 99: Reachers.” Oathbringer, Tor Fantasy, 2017. page 933 Kindle Edition

Kaladin blew it here, and he didn't even know it, didn't even realize.  His overwhelming attitude: not empathy, but one of "how can I be more like you, so that I can hide from my own pain.  He was done here, it was all over, I knew.  Almost to the end of the book, and finally one scene to see them interact in a positive and healthy way that didn't involve barbs, jokes, quirks, or other people there to witness, and it was this.

Oh well, journey before destination right?  It was fun doing the theorizing and debating while it lasted, but I'm pretty convinced that you have about as much chance of dredging that dead ship up as you do the Titanic.  It's sad, I'm probably never going to be able to read the chasm scene from WoR again.  

[Darvys]

19 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Kaladin blew it here, and he didn't even know it, didn't even realize.  His overwhelming attitude: not empathy, but one of "how can I be more like you, so that I can hide from my own pain.  He was done here, it was all over, I knew.  Almost to the end of the book, and finally one scene to see them interact in a positive and healthy way that didn't involve barbs, jokes, quirks, or other people there to witness, and it was this.

Oh well, journey before destination right?  It was fun doing the theorizing and debating while it lasted, but I'm pretty convinced that you have about as much chance of dredging that dead ship up as you do the Titanic.  It's sad, I'm probably never going to be able to read the chasm scene from WoR again.  

And it was so odd coming from him, the guy always annoyed by people telling him to let go of his guilt suddenly wants to eraze his feelings to be able to move on ? Felt forced, i had trouble believing what i was reading.

[Harbour]

Yep, that sounds like BS. I mean, really forced as hell. After everything Kaladin went through and some mental connection shared with Shallan he pulled such an uncharacteristic line. Its not him talking some insensible stuff like he sometimes (rarely) does, that kind of line is against his personality at all. 

[Ailvara]

2 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Not to do much rehashing of many things that have already been said by others, but as a big Shalladin shipper in the immediate aftermath of WOR, I can't say that I feel very...satisfied with how OB dealt with this particular minor plot line.  Unfortunately, to me, this was the thing that I posted most about following WoR, and indeed, it was the only thing that actually had me signing up to post on the forums in the first place.  Seriously, I never bothered to discuss books in an online forum format before that.  I felt very invested in learning more about that particular romantic entanglement plot line, and hoped to see more of it, and as a result, even though this was like, 0.001% of the story in OB, I feel it has disproportionately impacted my overall satisfaction with the ending of this particular book.  Much like @maxal Had discussed how the Book One preview chapters were having her down on the overall tone of the book and its treatment of Adolin, I can't help but feel a little let down once I got through OB in it's entirety.

It's not the fact that Adolin and Shallan ended up married and happy together.  I like them both, and would be happy for them had the build up been handled differently.  It's just that the writing up to that point seemed to have been indicating something more complicated, something more nuanced, and something that was going to forge the development of these 3 characters in ways that was sure to have more emotional churn and conflict.  By the end of it, I just couldn't help but to have this feeling of loss and disappointment that something I had been eagerly awaiting reading about, and had been teased not just by the writing, but by the author in comments to fans just didn't materialize the way it had been set up.  You could have taken the attractions and interactions between Shallan and Kaladin and completely removed them from the book, and it would have had absolutely zero impact on where they ended up in their own personal narratives, and their own understanding of each other and their interpersonal relationships with others.  I just have this overwhelming question of why?  Why was it written this way?  To what purpose did it serve?  It just feels hollow.

I kept reading this book, eagerly turning the pages and enjoying the vast narrative that was unfolding, but always at the back of my mind, there was this nagging voice that would always say "maybe the next Shallan chapter, we'll see that connection again, maybe when Kaladin has a chance to pause and think, we'll see more of what was hinted and teased at, the next chapter, the next chapter, the next chapter.  And it just never came, not really.  

I am so glad I'm not alone in this. 

Can you point to any of these comments to fans you mentioned? 

 

[Starla]

9 hours ago, Elsvette Mintyfresh said:

Shallan fails to consider a third option - herself. Adolin, the gentleman that he is, can plainly see that she's conflicted and fractured. He gives her an out - which he phrases clumsily and which rightfully pisses her off. Adolin, too, frames this choice as binary - Adolin or Kaladin. Instead of taking this as an opportunity to be alone with her selves and stitch them back together, she instead pushes forward and chooses Adolin. Honestly, her whole speech at that moment really read to me like she was convincing herself. I'm also a little disappointed in Adolin that he gives in and allows this choice, but I can't blame him too much.

Thank you for this. Shallan’s mental state is my main concern in this whole story arc. She doesn’t even consider the option of taking some time to sort out her issues before jumping into a permanent commitment. As soon as Adolin offers to step aside she latches onto him for dear life, like the thought of being alone terrifies her. Once she made the split-second decision on which man she wanted to be with (ugh), the wedding couldn’t come fast enough. There is no time for thought and reflection on all that has happened in the past weeks and months, including the fact that just a few minutes earlier she auto-shifted into another persona and gaped openly at another man. She waves it off that those are Veil’s thoughts, not her own. Adolin doesn’t seem concerned about it either, which is another red flag. She says re. Veil's infatuation with Kaladin "I won’t let her act on it. I promise," and he waves it off like it's nothing, and they are married within the week.

 

5 hours ago, Elsvette Mintyfresh said:

But she was fracturing herself even further before her brothers arrived. She was checking out her dress in the mirror, chit-chatting with Veil and Radiant as though they were her bridesmaids. This was something she had never done before. They had always been different faces that she wore; they didn't exist independently. Now they hang out, sip wine, and talk about boys.

This was another scene that really bothered me. She creates these illusions and they talk to her. Where does she think Veil's and Radiant’s thoughts are coming from? Did she consciously create their responses, or does she think they are speaking of their own volition? I half expected Tyler Durden to show up at this point. 

I am a bit bummed that I became disillusioned with Shallan in this book (pun intended). She had an interesting arc in Part 1 with the unmade storyline, and the beautiful scene with Wit in Part 3, where he gave great advice and the freedom to talk openly about her identity issues. I thought this would be a turning point for her and she would begin to stabilize and heal. However by the end of the book it seemed she was worse than ever. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I love Kaladin and want what’s best for him, and by the end of the book I was relieved she didn’t “choose” him. I don’t think she's ready for a strong, lasting relationship. Maybe Adolin will help her heal, but that is not the kind of growth I had hoped to see for her. I was hoping she would find the strength within herself to re-integrate the broken facets of her mind, and then make relationship choices and commitments from a strong healthy place. 

The way this was written, there seems to be setup for drama or problems in future books, but at this point my primary hope is that Kaladin and Adolin can stay close friends and that Kaladin can find his happiness elsewhere, whether alone or with someone else. I do not want to see him watching Adolin and Shallan and ruminating over what might have been, or Shallan continuing to waver between the needs and desires of each of her personas. I also hope I come around on Shallan, but at this point I’m not feeling her, which makes me sad. 

[DeployParachute]

40 minutes ago, Starla said:

The way this was written, there seems to be setup for drama or problems in future books, but at this point my primary hope is that Kaladin and Adolin can stay close friends and that Kaladin can find his happiness elsewhere, whether alone or with someone else. I do not want to see him watching Adolin and Shallan and ruminating over what might have been, or Shallan continuing to waver between the needs and desires of each of her personas. I also hope I come around on Shallan, but at this point I’m not feeling her, which makes me sad. 

Seconded. Now that the commitment has been made, I really want Adolin and Shallan to go the distance, somehow, and make it work.  I really hope BS doesn't go with the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar parallel at this point. Having Shallan continue to have doubts about her feelings towards Kaladin even after the union, at some point realizing hey"true feelings" only after Adolin is out of the way. That would just be bad writing IMO.

As for Kaladin, well, someone in the main book reactions thread mentioned how he seems to be setting up for a path to being alone, becoming this more mythical inspiring symbol for people to look up to, to aspire to, admire, emulate, but never really know him. And it's sad. Syl is constantly trying to convince him throughout OB that he needs someone, he's unhappy, there is a need within him that is going unfulfilled, that even Syl can't help with.  I don't know if that's going to be met now, not to say that Shallan would have or could have, but the author heavily implied it. Then again I think BS heavily implied in OB that Shallan doing for Kaladin what Tien used to would not have been a good thing.  Laral married, and happy. Shallan married and happy ( presumably). Tarah likely also paired up by this point in time. Seems like Kaladin is destined to always choosing others over himself. Hope he gets over that. Otherwise the"always have to protect protect protect, lead lead lead" gig is going to get old for me as a reader.

[Rainier]

Shallan will either stay with Adolin or kill Pattern. I don't see how she can have both.

She's lying to herself, still, even after the consolidation into three avatars. The longer she keeps lying, the worse Pattern's chances are of survival. These are the stakes, whether she realizes them (and suppresses it) or not.

But hey, if there's a new Oathpact at the end of book 5 and the Kaladin and Shallan are Heralds, then I could see Adolin and Shallan staying together until then (Adolin rebuilding), and the next Desolation coming far enough in the future that their relationship cannot continue. Then, finally, after having faced Damnation itself for years of torture, I can finally get my Shalladin. Let it be.

[DeployParachute]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

I am so glad I'm not alone in this. 

Can you point to any of these comments to fans you mentioned? 

 

You can go to the WOB arcanum and search "Shalladin", but here are what I feel are the relevant ones:

Questioner (paraphrased)

Will Kaladin and Shallan get together?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There will be Shalladin moments in Oathbringer.

Sources: Rasarr's Signing Report

 

 

DrogaKrolow

Do you have your favorite fan theory? You don't have to say if it's untrue or not, but--

Brandon Sanderson

Favorite fan theories. Oh wow. I'm always really curious about which two characters people like to "ship" together

DrogaKrolow

Shalladin!

Brandon Sanderson

That one would be pretty interesting. What else-- Favorite fan theories-- I've read a bunch of them that I just chuckle about, but some of them-- I mean it's a mark of pride for me when somebody gets it right. That means that I have done my foreshadowing well. The unfortunate part of that is, when it actually happens in the books there will be a whole lot "I knew it" rather than "Oh I'm so surprised". It's getting so hard to surprise you people. If I do my job right and I put in the foreshadowing then you will be able to guess things even though sometimes you guess things you are not supposed to be able to guess yet, because there is no foreshadowing. But yeah like there will be big revelations in Oathbringer that I think will blow the average reader's mind and the people who have been reading closer "Oh yeah, that. What they don't know that yet?"

My favorite fan theories-- I can't think of one of the top of my head, I've heard some really good ones though

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Kaladin blew it here, and he didn't even know it, didn't even realize.  His overwhelming attitude: not empathy, but one of "how can I be more like you, so that I can hide from my own pain.  He was done here, it was all over, I knew.  Almost to the end of the book, and finally one scene to see them interact in a positive and healthy way that didn't involve barbs, jokes, quirks, or other people there to witness, and it was this.

Oh well, journey before destination right?  It was fun doing the theorizing and debating while it lasted, but I'm pretty convinced that you have about as much chance of dredging that dead ship up as you do the Titanic.  It's sad, I'm probably never going to be able to read the chasm scene from WoR again.  

Oh, I've seen that. And I don't buy it.

Shallan says that Kaladin encouraged her to hide herself. He didn't. It was all assumption by Shallan. He just said - in a streak of bitterness, you know, after Syl was locked up and all - that he would like to be able to do the same. And that it is working - which isn't even a lie. He just made a simple statement of fact, that Shallan overanalyzed and used as a reason to cling to Adolin.

And if this really is fhe reason why Shallan suddenly shut down on Kaladin, then I'm sorry Brandon, this was just not well written, because right now Adolin is allowing her to do exactly the same, that she criticised about Kaladin, by becoming drinking buddies with Veil.

If Adolin seems to be the One(tm), then why does Brandon keep teasing it? Then I would like for him to just let it go. (I mean, c'mon, sapphire gown, Veil not being completely convinced of Adolin etc.)

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

2 hours ago, Starla said:

 I also hope I come around on Shallan, but at this point I’m not feeling her, which makes me sad. 

I'm with you here. After WOR, Shallan was my favorite character. I related to her a lot. Now, I'm just so disappointed in her.

On the bright side, tho, I was pretty meh on Adolin after WOR, but he grew on me a lot in this book. 

[RShara]

I wonder if Brandon realized he'd done the love triangle a few times too often and decided to end this one before it got much further?

[Harbour]

I doubt. He had many years before even the writing of WoR for someone including himself to point him on "another" triangle. I think he absolutely willingly did it. Having so much weird stuff going on i simply can believe he is THAT bad in this department, and make so many mistakes unintentionally. He plans everything about SA or at least first half of it. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Harbour

[Muggins]

I hate love triangles in and of themselves, but I felt it kind of worked here early on, particularly as a way to add animosity between Adolin and Kaladin.   Alodin fit the ideal in societal conventions; good marital/social standings, good looking etc.  Kaladin was passionate and sexy, and way more appealing to my literary romantic brain (I have a weakness for romance novels. Am I an anomalie in the fantasy community?  How many Fantastic/Romance readers exist?)

Was Sanderson turning conventions on their head, or just misdirecting the reader?  Is it going an ongoing issue?  At this point I am happy to leave it as is, even if I prefer the other ship.

But what was the point?  I feel toyed with as a reader.

Also Syl and Kaladin feels creepy to me, like Peter Pan and Tinkerbell in Hook.  *Shivers*