[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I'm pretty sure it was a joke XD

Pretty hard to pick up this stuff in text, sorry.

[PhineasGage]

17 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Option b here is not a certain cause of an undesirable infant attachment pattern. Infant attachment is dependent on a safe, loving relationship with its primary caregivers. Those primary caregivers do not need to be its parents, so long as it is given the security it needs to properly develop a secure attachment pattern. Shallan and Adolin could quite conceivably hand off a child to a competent and loving nanny and have a child grow to be well adjusted. Of course, that would make it difficult for said child to follow in Mummy's footsteps as a radiant.

I agree but then from a story perspective it doesn't add any interest. The main arguments in favour of a child within the story seem to be:

1. It is a normal progression after marriage
2. It may provide possible conflict between Adolin and Shallan
3. It may provide internal conflict between Shallan's alts
4. It will help Shallan consolidate

Well the argument can be countered

1. Yes.... and ? This is a fantasy setting so "normal" rules don't have to apply. It doesn't work as a "good" argument anyway because it is equally normal for people not to have kids in their first year of marriage. 
2. Fine, but then we presumably have one of them not doing a good job of parenting = possible problems for kid. And even if kid is fine, how does this get resolved? children grow up slowly so the problems wont be going anywhere.
3. Fine, but then we have problems for the kid because their mother is struggling to cope. Again, how does this get resolved? 
4. Not necessarily - especially if not all the alts are on board - it would cause major intrasystem disruption. And this also causes problems with resolution. And it is a dangerous road for a male author to write a female character who magically gets better from a serious psychological problem because "baby". 

On top of that, there are plenty of other currently unresolved arcs that may manage each of those goals mentioned above without adding yet another element to the story. Heleran's death, the return of Shallan's brothers, Sadeas' murder, the Maya arc. They are all in the air at the moment - unless we are happy that they will just be dropped in favour of a baby?

I just can't see the point of a baby if we are assuming it goes well for the kid, and I am not massively keen on the idea of watching two likeable characters screw up someone else's life just to have an interesting story. And as I said, the inbetweens need exposition to explain why their child rearing is working. I'd rather read more Renarin or Jasnah frankly. Thats a personal preference though and I know others feel differently. 

[aemetha]

@PhineasGage would agree with most of that from a literary standpoint yes.

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

two likeable characters

Not sure I'm quite ready to get on board with this bit .

@SLNC it was indeed intended to be a joke.

[Guest]

Just now, aemetha said:

it was indeed intended to be a joke.

I apologize then for not picking up on it.

[PhineasGage]

6 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Not sure I'm quite ready to get on board with this bit 

Ha - well that's fair. I'm a bit meh about Adolin myself! 

[insert_anagram_here]

Okay, I'm taking a break from this thread as it seems that the people mostly commenting here have their minds set on something very particular.

It was nice being part of this, even for a little while. Take care.

[PhineasGage]

I agree it should probably be dropped - the issue is that we cannot discuss it in terms of evidence because there isn't any. I vote we return to the "Adolin is a whitespine" and if anyone has any thoughts on it? Can we link it to further foreshadowing?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I vote we return to the "Adolin is a whitespine" and if anyone has any thoughts on it? Can we link it to further foreshadowing?

I really like the idea with murdering Sadeas being analogous to "a predator killing its prey". Plus, all those weeks before that, where he was dueling and winning Shards to "corner his prey" into a duel, could be compared to a "predator stalking its prey"

I primarily see the whitespine as a predator. Plus, well, the chapter with the 4v1 duel is called Whitespine Uncaged

 

[PhineasGage]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I really like the idea with murdering Sadeas being analogous to "a predator killing its prey". Plus, all those weeks before that, where he was dueling and winning Shards to "corner his prey" into a duel, could be compared to a "predator stalking its prey"

I primarily see the whitespine as a predator. Plus, well, the chapter with the 4v1 duel is called Whitespine Uncaged

 

Oh yes I like this.

On top of that, perhaps Adolin was a "passive" or "caged" (but coping) whitespine and it is only in "Whitespine Uncaged" that he really gets loose - and therefore dangerous. He had been able to keep a leash on his temper before that with Sadeas (they interact a couple of times). That being said, we don't see him be "dangerous" like he was to Sadeas all the way through OB. Do we think that his lack of remorse will lead to an increased risk of further murders or other reckless behaviors?

I'm struggling to see Adolin as a Whitespine in OB - aside from the excellent points that @Dreamstorm raised. Looking at his behaviour is there anything that we can link to the behaviour we might associate with a dangerous top-tier predator? I mean the fashion issues don't really align as far as i can see. He is cuddly with Shallan, he is chummy with Kaladin. etc. Are we thinking that this is his "Prince Adolin" persona (not to be confused with Shallan's alts) and that it simply covers a much nastier aspect to his character? That would make him an unreliable narrator - and I don't know that there is room for 2 - esp as Shallan is a MC. thoughts?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm struggling to see Adolin as a Whitespine in OB - aside from the excellent points that @Dreamstorm raised. Looking at his behaviour is there anything that we can link to the behaviour we might associate with a dangerous top-tier predator? I mean the fashion issues don't really align as far as i can see. He is cuddly with Shallan, he is chummy with Kaladin. etc. Are we thinking that this is his "Prince Adolin" persona (not to be confused with Shallan's alts) and that it simply covers a much nastier aspect to his character? That would make him an unreliable narrator - and I don't know that there is room for 2 - esp as Shallan is a MC. thoughts?

I honestly just think, that there is no "prey" so to speak for him right now. He wasn't a whitespine in TWoK either, but when Sadeas wronged him? Yeah, he was #1 on his grudge kill list.

Yes, I think, that Adolin has a nastier aspect below and it will just take something to let it come out. The right prods and he might just explode again. The fact, that he is proud of killing Sadeas and that he would do it again is this nastier aspect coming through, I think.

[Awesomness]

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

Or maybe because you can't really talk when you're flying in front of a Highstorm and all we would get is a chapter of one of them fawning over the other in their head ? Can't get your fixation on this guys.

If you want to be outraged over a missing scene why not the one where he took her to a mountainside off screen to ler her make her drawing of the tower ? She even had time to include a sketch of him ...

Hahahah Why didn´t he show her how to really fly then?!  I think what bothers us about this is that in the book  no one ever think about it.

Kal + Shallan + Syl flying in the storm... must have been fun!

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Actually, it is a sign of reduced autonomy of women. Even in areas with high infant mortality, provision of contraception that women control (eg the pill) tends to reduce birth rates. Reduced birth rates --> reduced death rates because small populations are less prone to disease spread and each child can get more resources to live and grow. Have a look at Gapminder https://www.gapminder.org/ignorance/

I agree with this, but it is a modern take on the issue. If we parallel Roshar with medieval Europe, having children make more sense than not having children given the context. Though I don´t think this was the main reason why the wedding was so rushed, I do think it is something people would consider in that context.

Regarding Adolin´s temper, I think it´s a pity we never saw the impulsive Adolin in OB, but I think it may be because he was "low" at the moment. He doesn´t understand his place in this new world. Much of his temper comes from his cockiness, and now that he feels out of league, it dampens his temper.

[Dreamstorm]

7 hours ago, gawwyt said:

Does anyone know why we didn't get what probably have been most of a chapter of Kal and Shallan practicing flying in front of a highstorm? I legitimately thought I had missed a chapter.

I pair this missing with the missing wedding.  The simple way of looking at it, is that Brandon felt these scenes wouldn't have anything to add (from a narrative POV, not fan satisfaction) and he didn't have the space to include them.  The more complex way is that we're supposed to read into this...  Kaladin and Shallan aren't important enough as a couple to show this potentially intimate scene; Adolin and Shallan aren't important enough as a couple to show the wedding.  Both of these moments could be seen as the most intimate (or potentially intimate) moments between each pairing; we really don't see Kaladin and Shallan truly together except perhaps the palace infiltration scene where Shallan is stabbed so this would have been the only possibility of legitimate alone time vs. wedding which is a pretty obvious symbolically intimate moment for a couple.  Neither is worth the time developing because in the end what Shallan needs is intimate moments with herself in order to advance her emotional journey.  But... more likely just a space issue, though I do find it off the flying to TC even came up when it went nowhere 

7 hours ago, Darvys said:

If you want to be outraged over a missing scene why not the one where he took her to a mountainside off screen to ler her make her drawing of the tower ? She even had time to include a sketch of him ...

Wait, this actually happened??  Oh, I see what you mean about the artwork, that is really odd as yeah, those pictures had to be from the air/a distance.  Is this even mentioned in the text as happening?  (I know she references wanting to in Part 1, but I don't remember anything about it in Part 2 when it actually would have happened.)  This makes me put one foot on the "something weird is happening which is why we didn't get these scenes" dinghy...

ETA:  We sure that figure in the drawing is Kaladin?  Spear makes me think so.  Super long ponytail hair and nipped in waste makes me think it's kind of feminine.  But looks like totally uncovered left hand...

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So here is a non-exhaustive list of what we know about whitespines:

• Top predator
• People go on hunts for them as they are "trophy" kills
• They are very dangerous
• They like to predate scavengers as well as other prey 
• They need to go dormant during their lifecycle (and form a crysallis/crystal when they do so). It is unclear whether this is seasonal, age-related, sex-related or part of a lifecyle where they can pupate into something else (last one seems unlikely)
• They do poorly in captivity (reasons unclear- may be food types, lack of space, prevented from going dormant, others also likely)
• They are (likely - certainly implied) solitary animals
• They (probably) have a gemheart - but we have seen no spren associated with them at this point. 

Can we relate this to Adolin in more thorough ways? Probably tho I expect this to cause some debate

• Adolin is basically "top" predator now - he is a highprince, but was always top of society (the alethi court is the most ferocious in the world according to Shallan (WoR)
• Adolin could be considered a "trophy" as he was the most eligible bachelor in Alethkar (even ROshar). I think this is even more true when we see how Shallan objectifies him throughout her narratives in OB and WoR (NB Adolin doesn't objectify her nearly as much - his objectification is pretty much limited to the beginning of their acquaintance)
• Well Adolin is dangerous - Ialai Sadeas calls him a "weapon" and Torol agrees - saying you rarely get hurt by a weapon you are holding. He wasn't holding Adolin tho (he was a whitespine uncaged after all)
• Adolin doesn't like hunting (this is a reach I know)
• Er.....not sure how this might relate? Perhaps his trip to prison was more of a dormancy period than captivity?
• We haven't seen Adolin in true captivity - he weathered his time in prison fine (Kaladin tells us this) - but then it was essentially entirely optional and he was given access to the outside world via spanreeds etc. He even got his cologne in....
• Well Adolin was not good at relationships prior to Shallan - we have yet to see if it will work out because they've only known each other a few months. Not clear how long his previous courtships lasted - it is thought he may have been engaged previosuly (Tyn said so) but have no further confirmation. It seems most of these relationships failed as a result of his actions/boredom.
• Can't see a link here either unless no spren for whitespine = no spren for Adolin?

If we think we can use the whitespine as an allegory for Adolin, I am not sure that Shallan is hugely invested in them. She seems much more fascinated by the chasmfiend but then it was wild/free and the only chasmfiend we see her see is caged and thus not terribly inspiring. She doesn't seem to think of whitespines with quite the same reverence though. 

Just a couple things to add (bolded some of the parts I'm referring to)...  Shallan definitely see Adolin as a trophy which she hunts.  I would argue Adolin is in captivity except at the few moments he is unleashed (duel, killing Sadeas), so he currently in a chrysalis/languishing in captivity.  Regarding relationships, he also doesn't form close friendships; this is mentioned in the wine house scene in WoK and of course we see how superficial those friendships were in WoR.  He is closest to his brother and father, and both of those relationships are built on a bit of a lie (that Adolin is not a dangerous whitespine.)  I could go further and say that the blandifying (totally a word) of Adolin's personality in OB is just him retreating further and further into his chrysalis/captivity, which will only explode later...  I may be giving Adolin's character way too much credit, as I do read him as so much sunshine and light with only a slight edge when really really pushed (Sadeas.)  

Oh, and adding chasmfiend references to the list of things to do!  17th shard = full time job 

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I have felt uneasy about Adoli killing Sadeas right from the start but he made me actively dislike him for a moment when he said he was "proud" and that he'd "do it again" - Rock clearly felt awful about killing Amaram, Kaladin killing Szeth was retconned out, Dalinar has taken the responisbility for killing all those people, including Evi but Adolin seems to feel that he isnt  responsible.

All this Bad Adolin evidence!!  Ahhhhh, conflicted!

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

I honestly just think, that there is no "prey" so to speak for him right now. He wasn't a whitespine in TWoK either, but when Sadeas wronged him? Yeah, he was #1 on his grudge kill list.

Yes, I think, that Adolin has a nastier aspect below and it will just take something to let it come out. The right prods and he might just explode again. The fact, that he is proud of killing Sadeas and that he would do it again is this nastier aspect coming through, I think.

I agree with this... goes in line with my(/our) thinking that he is in captivity/pupating for the majority of the books except those brief uncaged moments...

3 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Regarding Adolin´s temper, I think it´s a pity we never saw the impulsive Adolin in OB, but I think it may be because he was "low" at the moment. He doesn´t understand his place in this new world. Much of his temper comes from his cockiness, and now that he feels out of league, it dampens his temper.

Also love this... the languishing captive whitespine who can't show his true nature so he just become... bland.  Very in line with his (lack of) character development.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

All this Bad Adolin evidence!!  Ahhhhh, conflicted!

Honestly? This is what is convincing me the most atm in combination with Dalinar's vision.

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/253 (credit to @FuzzyWordsmith)

Quote

A wise friend (an LDS writer) once explained that in his opinion, glorifying violence or sexuality comes when consequences are removed. The scriptures themselves don't shy away from graphic content or descriptions (scalps on swords, anyone?) The important issue, however, is that the scriptures show the destructive effect that these things can have, even on the good people who are forced to engage in them.

So, I consider that my charge. I don't sugar-coat my stories; I show cause and effect. A person cannot kill, in my opinion, even for good reasons without it leaving them scarred.

This is as WoB as it gets.

Dalinar's vision:

Quote

Dalinar stared deep into those eyes, and felt a chill wash through him. Though the destruction raged around him, vaporizing rocks, those eyes frightened him more. He saw something terribly familiar in them. This was a danger far beyond even the storms. This was the enemy’s champion. And he was coming.

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Honestly? This is what is convincing me the most atm in combination with Dalinar's vision.

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/253 (credit to @FuzzyWordsmith)

This is as WoB as it gets.

But I don't want him to be bad!  I'm a Goodolin shipper versus you Badolin shippers.  So far in what we've seen in the story, Adolin is good, good, good, he just got a little angry with Sadeas!  That doesn't mean anything!  Everyone hated Sadeas!  Don't read into things so much!  (I'm joking around, but I personally don't want him to go bad )

[Guest]

Just now, Dreamstorm said:

But I don't want him to be bad!  I'm a Goodolin shipper versus you Badolin shippers.  So far in what we've seen in the story, Adolin is good, good, good, he just got a little angry with Sadeas!  That doesn't mean anything!  Everyone hated Sadeas!  Don't read into things so much!  (I'm joking around, but I personally don't want him to go bad )

I don't necessarily either, but I prefer everything to what we have now. This is just boring.

Edited December 6, 2017 by SLNC

[Awesomness]

10 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

All this Bad Adolin evidence!!  Ahhhhh, conflicted!

Again we are building a whole new theory based on hints and foreshadowing. This sort of disregards the Adolin-Proto-Edgedancer theory (that I personally don´t buy).

I do not dare to say this out loud and use it as evidence yet (as I don´t have the book on hand to check) but I find myself doubting  if Adolin´s scene with the prostitute was an active act of kindness or cockiness against the guy who was harassing her... I always read that scene in the context of Kaladin´s arc, not Adolin´s.

[Ailvara]

15 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

But I don't want him to be bad!  I'm a Goodolin shipper versus you Badolin shippers.  So far in what we've seen in the story, Adolin is good, good, good, he just got a little angry with Sadeas!  That doesn't mean anything!  Everyone hated Sadeas!  Don't read into things so much!  (I'm joking around, but I personally don't want him to go bad )

And I'm a sucker for tragic plot twists  

Anyway, apart from my own wishes, it would be good to discuss it as broadly as possible. Maybe we should have another thread so that people staying away from this topic could contribute?

I just wanted to remind about this quote:

Quote

my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine

EDIT:

9 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Again we are building a whole new theory based on hints and foreshadowing. This sort of disregards the Adolin-Proto-Edgedancer theory (that I personally don´t buy).

I was thinking about how to reconcile both storylines, as I don't like red herrings and I hope there is something to both of them. And my wild speculation is, that Adolin reviving Maya might result in him gaining Radiant powers without saying the oaths, as he would be already bound to her. It feels like a stretch, but with some work on the details and maybe new information on how these things work, it might be possible.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ailvara

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine

Oof. Any ideas what this could mean? Other than the nine Unmade?

[Ailvara]

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Oof. Any ideas what this could mean? Other than the nine Unmade?

Nine is a number associated with Odium. There was even a WoB on that.

EDIT: Oh, there, I've found it! https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I have a theory that each one of the Shards is related to a certain number. Preservation really likes 16, Honor likes 10, and Odium likes 9. Am I onto something?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ailvara

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Nine is a number associated with Odium. There was even a WoB on that.

 

Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I have a theory that each one of the Shards is related to a certain number. Preservation really likes 16, Honor likes 10, and Odium likes 9. Am I onto something?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

 

You're right... damnation. It even is fresh.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8381

[Dreamstorm]

37 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't necessarily either, but I prefer everything to what we have now. This is just boring.

Would definitively be an interesting about face, kind of like another, um, highly controversial theory (*cough* Shalladin) which is... 

33 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

based on hints and foreshadowing

 

33 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

I do not dare to say this out loud and use it as evidence yet (as I don´t have the book on hand to check) but I find myself doubting  if Adolin´s scene with the prostitute was an active act of kindness or cockiness against the guy who was harassing her... I always read that scene in the context of Kaladin´s arc, not Adolin´s.

So I'm (still) on my WoK reread, and when I got to the chapter where Adolin is in the wine house, I literally set my book down thinking, where is this Adolin?!?  He's so snotty ("I hate being wrong") and dismissive of his friends (not to mention Danlon), it feels like a totally different person.  He's definitely a show-off in the prostitute scene.  And totally obnoxious to Kaladin (which contrasts this egalitarian person we see later - drinking buddies with Skar and Drehy for example.)  Where did he go??  Did Shallan in her magic "making the prince perfect" powers transform him?

29 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about how to reconcile both storylines, as I don't like red herrings and I hope there is something to both of them. And my wild speculation is, that Adolin reviving Maya might result in him gaining Radiant powers without saying the oaths, as he would be already bound to her. It feels like a stretch, but with some work on the details and maybe new information on how these things work, it might be possible.

Maybe reviving Maya will unleash the whitespine within him and actually be the catalyst for him going bad...  At least that would add some interest to the Maya revival storyline besides "yay, go Adolin!" and the realmatics behind it.  Love the "sign of the nine" callback, too.  There was a lot of discussion on that with the prerelease chapters, but it was dismissed as coincidental.  

Edited December 6, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Ailvara]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

Maybe reviving Maya will unleash the whitespine within him and actually be the catalyst for him going bad...  At least that would add some interest to the Maya revival storyline besides "yay, go Adolin!" and the realmatics behind it.  Love the "sign of the nine" callback, too.  There was a lot of discussion on that with the prerelease chapters, but it was dismissed as coincidental.  

3

Another possibility is, that it will be about as significant for his storyline as Cryptics watching Elhokar... Which is not that much.

Unfortunately, I didn't discuss the pre-release chapters here, but on Tor's webpage, it was also spotted and mostly left. However, in the new context of Adolin dodging responsibility where we know, what a bad idea this is... What chances are there, that Adolin just drops this bomb in a moment, where he could easily say anything else about himself, where we can easily dismiss it in the light and comedic context, and, of all signs available on Roshar, he is associated with one of the two that are quite so significant (the other being 10 for Honor)?

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Unfortunately, I didn't discuss the pre-release chapters here, but on Tor's webpage, it was also spotted and mostly left. However, in the new context of Adolin dodging responsibility where we know, what a bad idea this is... What chances are there, that Adolin just drops this bomb in a moment, where he could easily say anything else about himself, where we can easily dismiss it in the light and comedic context, and, of all signs available on Roshar, he is associated with one of the two that are quite so significant (the other being 10 for Honor)?

Totally agree.  Usage of "nine" should also be analyzed in the books... this thread is now an advanced-level English class "Analyzing Brandon Sanderson's Oathbringer" complete with homework 

[GoddessIMHO]

I'm taking a break from this topic. My tinfoil hat got crushed under all the speculation.

[DeployParachute]

My opinion, from a literary perspective is that if we want Adolin to live, he's going to have to be brought low somehow (even if it is of his own doing). He had spent all his time on screen up high, with nothing to challenge the fact that everyone likes him, including all of us readers.  If he isn't brought low, then he's going to have himself a trip to the hacked fabled Tranquiline Halls. 

I refuse to believe his presence is not going to be significantly meaningful to the future plot of these novels. I refuse to believe that Adolin can just be the "good good good guy" that serves as the normal, mostly prefect counterpoint to every other characters growth and storylines. Out of the secondary POV characters, he had the most screen time.  He's either going to have to come to a reckoning over something significant as a result of his own decisions, character, and agency, or he's going to die. My money is on the latter, as he doesn't seem especially introspective about long term consequences of his actions, nor acknowledgement of the (albeit minute) darker side of his own nature.