[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

That being said, they're going to have as many babysitters as they need. I'd honestly expect Shallan's commitment to parenting to be possibly not much bigger than Dalinar's... Which would work practically and only practically, so I hope it won't happen. But I personally don't like baby storylines, so I'm biased. 

True, but then why have a baby in the first place, if it doesn't add anything to Shallan's story? Not really directed at you, but in general.

[Ailvara]

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

True, but then why have a baby in the first place, if it doesn't add anything to Shallan's story? Not really directed at you, but in general.

Even if there would be no reasons from the story-level point of view, there might still be in-world reasons. I don't know where Roshar stands in terms of contraception, but a baby within a year might be just a natural/inevitable course of events unless explained otherwise. 

EDIT it might also add to Adolin's story, or someone else's from the family, or the baby might be a character planned for the next 5 books

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ailvara

[Aleksiel]

7 minutes ago, firegazer said:

I apply modern standards to modern books. This setting doesn't exist. It's not a real historical period. The author could have easily chosen not to write a society where women get married and/or pregnant at 17 years old. He did not. He further made the conscious decision to force his only main character female into the same role, in spite of the fact that she could have evaded it.

If she ends up pregnant, I'm done, mostly because I myself do not want, and have never wanted, to read about teenage pregnancy in a lovely, positive light. It doesn't belong in my own choices of fantasy novel. I do not enjoy it. And I hate that authors get away with doing it because "it was a different (nonexistent, totally fantasy) time period."

Then why haven't you dropped the series because it contains slavery and a caste society? That goes against modern morale standards, too. If you had applied those for everything we've had so far, not just the possibility of Shallan having a baby any time soon, the sentence would have been catastrophic and you would have dropped the series before the end of WoK. I don't mean to be rude, I'm not sure if I succeeded. I respect if adding a baby is not your cup of tea, you say so yourself, just disagree with justifying this with modern day morale.

[firegazer]

3 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Then why haven't you dropped the series because it contains slavery and a caste society? That goes against modern morale standards, too.

The huge, huge, huge difference is making the main character HAPPY about it and implying that it's great. If Kaladin had spent his entire time being like "you know, being a slave isn't so bad, I bet it's better for me in the long run," I figure we all would have had issues with that too?

Edited December 5, 2017 by firegazer

[insert_anagram_here]

Okay, let's consider the baby as a hypothetical outcome to the marriage. I know many of you may find the idea daunting, but I'd say challenge yourselves and try to not project your own feelings towards raising a child. Think neutral.

35 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I just can't see a scenario, where pregnancy and fighting as a KR mix

I think that is exactly why there can be one year time lapse, to avoid the uncomfortable position of explaining how it all worked while pregnant.

11 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

That being said, they're going to have as many babysitters as they need. I'd honestly expect Shallan's commitment to parenting to be possibly not much bigger than Dalinar's... Which would work practically and only practically.

This is exactly how I see that it could work out, at least in the beginning while the baby is still in its first years and a practical absence might not affect the upbringing as much. At least until she actually gets used to the idea of being a mother, to stabilize her personalities and for 'end of the world' events to settle down. At some point she should be able to raise it peacefully right? (between books 5 and 6 ?)

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Even if there would be no reasons from the story-level point of view, there might still be in-world reasons. I don't know where Roshar stands in terms of contraception, but a baby within a year might be just a natural/inevitable course of events unless explained otherwise. 

My opinion is, that Sanderson is trying to build a compelling narrative and not a world simulator.

I'll be honest, if Shallan and Adolin have a child in SA4 and they just send it away to some wet nurse without any feelings on that matter it just unrealistic. Shallan is a main character and becoming a mother is a huge event in one's lifetime. If it has next to no impact, because the child is constantly away anyway, then why have it in the first place? Same goes for Adolin. He is the Kholin highprince, he has responsibilities, he is probably expected to lead the effort to reclaim the Kholin lands in Alethkar. I don't think, he'd have time to play stay-at-home-dad either. So the child is some spec of irrelevance in the background? The child of a main character.

4 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

At least until she actually gets used to the idea of being a mother, to stabilize her personalities and for 'end of the world' events to settle down. At some point she should be able to raise it peacefully right? (between books 5 and 6 ?)

Then have them have a child at that time. Guys, I don't care about whatever is normal on Roshar. Roshar is in turmoil, there is a state of emergency (= not normal anymore), the world is being overrun by angry singers at the command of one of the scariest Shards in the universe. Of course, it would be very sensible to set a child into that world. Especially, when both parents have integral parts in the defense of this world and could die at any minute in the conflict.

Edited December 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, firegazer said:

The huge, huge, huge difference is making the main character HAPPY about it and implying that it's great. If Kaladin has spent his entire time being like "you know, being a slave isn't so bad, I bet it's better for me in the long run," I figure we all would have had issues with that too?

To me it seems you are selectively applying the standard you initially pointed to. Sadeas was pretty happy to sacrifice thousands of men on the bridges. A character being happy about something doesn't make it great, and in general character's feelings are no substitute of our judgement on issues. Not all topics raised in the books will align with your, mine, anyone's perception of right and wrong. The series isn't meant to be morale guidance despite how well it presents controversial issues (which is another point if favor of the possibility of a baby).

[firegazer]

Just now, Aleksiel said:

Sadeas was pretty happy to sacrifice thousands of men on the bridges. A character being happy about something doesn't make it great, and in general character's feelings are no substitute of our judgement on issues.

You seriously don't see the difference between Sadeas (a villain) doing a villainous deed that the author makes clear is TOTALLY VILLAINOUS and Shallan -- a main character we are supposed to root for -- happily embracing the concept of teenage marriage (and possibly teenage motherhood), with language and themes that the author has chosen which implicitly suggest he thinks it's a good thing for the character?

Sanderson has gone out of his way in every way to portray how awful slavery and the caste system are in this world, and to have the main characters think nuanced thoughts about them. The sole thing he DOESN'T seem interested in overthrowing is the patriarchal system. Why is that the ONLY thing he's totally okay with keeping the same and having the main characters accept without much critical thought?

[Ailvara]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'll be honest, if Shallan and Adolin have a child in SA4 and they just send it away to some wet nurse without any feelings on that matter it just unrealistic. Shallan is a main character and becoming a mother is a huge event in one's lifetime. If it has next to no impact, because the child is constantly away anyway, then why have it in the first place? Same goes for Adolin. He is the Kholin highprince, he has responsibilities, he is probably expected to lead the effort to reclaim the Kholin lands in Alethkar. I don't think, he'd have time to play stay-at-home-dad either. So the child is some spec of irrelevance in the background? The child of a main character.

Who says without any feelings. As I'm in the "this marriage won't end well" camp, I'd rather see this as a source of disagreement between Shallan and Adolin. They might overlook some of their key differences for the honeymoon, but when Adolin, being his loving and compassionate self, sees, for example, how Shallan turns out to be career-oriented and even selfish around the baby, it would get to him more than if she neglected himself. This is pure speculation, but it could go this way and make sense for the story. 

[Aleksiel]

Just now, firegazer said:

You seriously don't see the difference between Sadeas (a villain) doing a villainous deed that the author makes clear is TOTALLY VILLAINOUS and Shallan -- a main character we are supposed to root for -- happily embracing the concept of teenage marriage (and possibly teenage motherhood), with language and themes that the author has chosen which implicitly suggest he thinks it's a good thing for the character?

Sanderson has gone out of his way in every way to portray how awful slavery and the caste system are in this world, and to have the main characters think nuanced thoughts about them. The sole thing he DOESN'T seem interested in overthrowing is the patriarchal system. Why is that the ONLY thing he's totally okay with keeping the same and having the main characters accept without much critical thought?

I see the difference. I just don't agree explaining this as applying modern standards to modern books is what makes it different. I also don't agree with the rest of your statement either - women are now warriors and Jasnah is king. I won't further draw the thread offtopic and will agree to disagree.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Who says without any feelings. As I'm in the "this marriage won't end well" camp, I'd rather see this as a source of disagreement between Shallan and Adolin. They might overlook some of their key differences for the honeymoon, but when Adolin, being his loving and compassionate self, sees, for example, how Shallan turns out to be career-oriented and even selfish around the baby, it would get to him more than if she neglected himself. This is pure speculation, but it could go this way and make sense for the story. 

Sure, there are many ways that could go. I think, that there are many more points of conflict that could arise.

I'm still against it because it would feature child neglect. Children are a bit of a weak point for me, I'll admit.

And everyone saying how Evi used babysitters: sure, but Renarin and Adolin were still primarily raised by her, which is the point. Shallan can't fit that role in the narrative, because she already is a Radiant. She can't commit the time for it. Adolin? Maybe, but I do think, that he too will have an integral part in the war against Odium. Should their child be completely raised by wet nurses? Is that a good picture to show?

[firegazer]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

I also don't agree with the rest of your statement either - women are now warriors and Jasnah is king. I won't further draw the thread offtopic and will agree to disagree.

You may agree to disagree, but please be aware that I have further thoughts on all of these comments and why they are not logical rebuttals. If you ever want to discuss more in-depth, I am here by PMs.

[insert_anagram_here]

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

it would feature child neglect.

Not necessarily.

[Dreamstorm]

13 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Yes, I am very much looking forward to you analysis of this. I think it likely has intersting things in other places too. I'll probably go back and see if there is other input elsewhere in WoR/tWoK that might also fit with this idea. Unless of course you are doing that too?

I hadn't considered it pre-the Wit advice, but will see what I can find.  I'm definitely going to it for the second half of OB, and I'l post it here 

13 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I think it would be easier if we had concrete "foreshadowing" like we have identified for Shalladin. I think light and sunlight should probably be our guiding star (pun intended) on this one. See when Shallan sepcifically thinks about the sun. The only other aspect that I can think of is natural history vs art.

I always associated Adolin with whitespines, given his WoR chapter called Whitespine Uncaged when he starts the 4v1 duel.  A brief look at this just where I think it could be of reference though as I do a search I'm less certain about the Adolin symbolism.  Or more certain that Adolin will go dark if I believe the symbolism   I took a stab at interpreting what these could mean....

• WoK
  • Ch 39 Burned Into Her: Shallan notes scholars like to study "big, dynamic animals, like greatshells or whitespines" though she is interested in the shalebark/cremling symbiosis. 
    • Uh, this is easy, Shallan is not that into whitespines.
• WoR
  • Ch 20 Coldness of Clarity: Shallan thinks the bandits see her as a mink wandering into the whitespine's den.
    • Shallan is soon to be the mink wandering into the Kholin court.
  • Ch 43 The Ghostbloods: Shallan likens visiting the Ghostbloods to walking into a whitespine's den. 
    • This is like going to the Kholin court for the first time.  In both she is wearing Lightwoven disguises too.
  • Ch 55 The Rules of the Game: Adolin compares Shallan hugging Wit to her hugging a whitespine.  This is when they visit the captive whitespine and Shallan notes to Kaladin that whitespines don't do well in captivity. 
    • Shallan hugs Wit, just like Shallan hugs Adolin the whitespine.
    • Adolin doesn't do well in captivity.  (Dark Adolin....)
  • Ch 56 Whitespine Uncaged:  "Adolin attacked.  He lept forward, sweeping with a barrage of strikes at Relis.  Elit jumped away to curse as he did so.  They were like men with spears prodding at a whitespine.  And this whitespine was not yet caged."
    • Obvious tying Adolin to whitespine
  • Ch 64 Treasures:  Kaladin imagines himself caged like the whitespine in the menagerie.
    • Adolin is also in jail with Kaladin
  • Ch 70 From a Nightmare:  Shallan likens the chasm fiend to a whitespine as it exudes power, only more enormous and alien.
    • I could way far out here about how Kaladin is the chasm fiend (which they see together) and Adolin is the whitespine (which those two see together) and both are powerful and Kaladin is more enormous and alien.  This might be stretching it even for me   But more seriously, Adolin does exude power.
  • Ch The Four:  Sadeas tells Adolin he and Dalinar are two whitespines circling each other ("it's me or him") right before Adolin kills him.
    • Adolin is actually the whitespine who made the kill.
• OB
  • Ch 22 The Darkness Within:  Ialai mentions whitespine behavior in reference to who killed Sadeas as someone who would be lurking nearby.  Shallan notes this means "Why have you returned to the scene of the kill, Kholin?"
    • This was when I really linked whitespine and Adolin since it was done explicitly again.  Obviously Adolin is the one who killed Sadeas so this is him.  He is actually lurking nearby.
  • Ch 63 Within the Mirror:  Shallan notes cities are not civilized places, no more than a whitespine was domesticated just because a collar is around its neck.
    • More Adolin going dark symbolism
  • Ch 83 Crimson to Break:  Adolin compares going into Kholinar palace with its spearman like a whitespine's den.
    • Well, he is taking back his own den...

Let me know what you think.  There are two extremely obvious places where Adolin is overtly referenced as a whitespine, so that does say to me this is something intentional.  However, I don't know how much I believe it unless Adolin is going to go dark...

 

I apologize for double-posting but I don't know how to do quotes from posts of multiple pages... @Ookla the Grey can you combine me?  (And feel free to educate me!)

12 hours ago, Ailvara said:

It just hit me, how neatly many of our complaints would be addressed if only leaving Sadeas' murder plot aside was intentional. Wouldn't that leave Adolin somewhat in the place of all those who gave up the guilt for their actions and fell to Odium as a result. "I will take responsibility for what I have done" just sounds so bitter in the context of Adolin.

I'm so torn.  I read Adolin as sweetness and light, a non-dramatic person in this story who won't go dark.  But stuff like this, and my possibly quite tenuous whitespine symbolism investigation, leave me thinking that there is something to this...  This is a pretty big about face from what we're slapped in the face with so many times - one must take responsibility for one's actions...  Do not have my mind made up here.

8 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Casually stopping by without reading much, but I saw baby being mentioned. Without discussing whether it would be good or not for Shallan, I think it's the natural course unless she and Adolin decided to not have one during Desolation. She has already wondered what their children's hair would look like, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see a child next book. May be a girl we'll ship with Oroden in the second five 

I don't have many opinions in the Shallan baby fight (maybe just because I feel like it's so unlikely?  I feel this way about the Syladin stuff too), but I wanted to point out that so far Brandon hasn't gone this route.  Vin and Elend marry end of WoA, there's a one-year time skip and then all of HoA and nary a mention of possible baby or a baby made.  That's two years of sex!  Same for Breeze and Allariane (who Brandon notes in annotations are married in spirit since Scadrial at that time didn't really have marriage - neatly avoiding premarital sex, lol), and we've got three years of sex going on there.  It may be a natural progression IRL, but so far (that I've read) it doesn't seem to be something Brandon has explored or necessarily even sees as the assumed next step after marriage.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Greywatch]

@Dreamstorm I gotchu. I think editing them in should work, but I guess I'd need to try it myself to figure out the steps.

Edit: Also I merged the posts before I read them in full, so after that I've gotta say I really like that. I don't think that's the full picture of Adolin, but that's the kind of analysis I love. I think I wanna write at least a partial response/chip in to it; I'm working on a post for that Adolin topic, I may fold it in. Very very neat.

[Meghan1Q84]

Well I have a question. I am not married, but to those of you who are.  The day you got married did you think to yourself "This is really great, a day just to celebrate me accepting me!"

Or did you think, "I'm so in love with XY, this is the first day of the rest of our lives together, what a wonderful day to celebrate us being us!"

On the one hand, people talk about the wedding day being "the bride's day" and I freely admit that I am without practical experience. But I sense that the first response should be celebrated with a really great birthday party or actually anything rather than a marriage. Especially when you're celebrating the relative integration of 3 dissociative identities. The fact that she was not thinking about being in love with Adolin in that closing paragraph was troubling. Such a contrast between that and D&N's wedding. 

 

Whitespine connection. I could definitely see this but maybe in another manifestation. Adolin likes having his ego stroked and he hasn't been...domesticated before Shallan. He has not enjoyed sharing Shallan with the bridge boy. I could see him stepping out for some drinks and just a little consolation if she continues to leer a little too often. Who is that one scribe Shallan particularly dislikes? Good eye for metaphor!

[Awesomness]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

13 hours ago, Ailvara said:

It just hit me, how neatly many of our complaints would be addressed if only leaving Sadeas' murder plot aside was intentional. Wouldn't that leave Adolin somewhat in the place of all those who gave up the guilt for their actions and fell to Odium as a result. "I will take responsibility for what I have done" just sounds so bitter in the context of Adolin.

I'm so torn.  I read Adolin as sweetness and light, a non-dramatic person in this story who won't go dark.  But stuff like this, and my possibly quite tenuous whitespine symbolism investigation, leave me thinking that there is something to this...  This is a pretty big about face from what we're slapped in the face with so many times - one must take responsibility for one's actions...  Do not have my mind made up here.

I think this issue about Sadeas´s murder and responsability mirrors Rock´s feelings about killing Amaram. He knows he was justified, but doesn´t make him feel any better. Adolin avoiding his responsability, in the context of Odium tanking away the fault and guilt can´t be coincidence. The only other characters that we see avoiding responsability are Moash and Amaram...

3 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

I see the difference. I just don't agree explaining this as applying modern standards to modern books is what makes it different.

Not that I want any child, but I think the chronologically accurate take would be to have children, as many as possible. There is a Desolation right now, people are dying at great and increasing rates. If they want to secure the future of the species, they should star producing...

This is how it used to be in the past, when peopla had many children and some of them died before adulthood...

[Mulk]

2 hours ago, Meghan1Q84 said:

Well I have a question. I am not married, but to those of you who are.  The day you got married did you think to yourself "This is really great, a day just to celebrate me accepting me!"

Or did you think, "I'm so in love with XY, this is the first day of the rest of our lives together, what a wonderful day to celebrate us being us!"

On the one hand, people talk about the wedding day being "the bride's day" and I freely admit that I am without practical experience. But I sense that the first response should be celebrated with a really great birthday party or actually anything rather than a marriage. Especially when you're celebrating the relative integration of 3 dissociative identities. The fact that she was not thinking about being in love with Adolin in that closing paragraph was troubling. Such a contrast between that and D&N's wedding.

I was 19 when I married.  Now, given I am the guy so I'm not the focus of the thing  (a fact I got to hear many times before and after the wedding), but I was mostly saying to myself don't lock your knees, don't faint, don't mess up the words.  And a whole hell of a lot of holy crap it's TODAY. OMG I'M GETTING MARRIED.  It wasn't the most enlightened or romantic of thoughts. However...

I'm 43 and still married, same woman, three kids and more than half my life later.  Make of that what you will.

[Agewalker]

Personally, I find it highly unlikely that Shallan and Adolin will ever have children.

Not because of infertility, but because everytime things start to get frisky, Pattern will probably some remark along the lines of "Facinating! You two do it differently then Dalinar and Navani" and kill the mood completely.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Meghan1Q84 said:

Well I have a question. I am not married, but to those of you who are.  The day you got married did you think to yourself "This is really great, a day just to celebrate me accepting me!"

Or did you think, "I'm so in love with XY, this is the first day of the rest of our lives together, what a wonderful day to celebrate us being us!"

On the one hand, people talk about the wedding day being "the bride's day" and I freely admit that I am without practical experience. But I sense that the first response should be celebrated with a really great birthday party or actually anything rather than a marriage. Especially when you're celebrating the relative integration of 3 dissociative identities. The fact that she was not thinking about being in love with Adolin in that closing paragraph was troubling. Such a contrast between that and D&N's wedding. 

 

Whitespine connection. I could definitely see this but maybe in another manifestation. Adolin likes having his ego stroked and he hasn't been...domesticated before Shallan. He has not enjoyed sharing Shallan with the bridge boy. I could see him stepping out for some drinks and just a little consolation if she continues to leer a little too often. Who is that one scribe Shallan particularly dislikes? Good eye for metaphor!

Ask 10 different women and they will tell you 10 different tales. There is no right nor wrong mindset on the day of your marriage. I just thought: "My dress is pretty and I look gorgeous", which many could take as an ill-sign because it is not deep and a tad silly, but I'm still married and I have two kids.

I have always associated Adolin to whitespines because I felt, if caged, he would wither like them, whereas if put onto the battle ground, he would fight until death comes if needs be. I am not linking this to the romance or anything, just something about Adolin's character I wish the author would explore.

[Meghan1Q84]

@Ookla the Mulkfather

Thank you for sharing your story! That's just the sort of real world answer that Mr. Sanderson would know and I appreciate your sharing it with me : )

@maxal , you're are quite right--there are many answers in real life and in real life the question is probably meaningless because as Mulkfather points out, he has had a happy life relationship and his nerves on the wedding day had no impact on it for the worse. You have both convinced me that in the real world it would be reading far too much into trivialities to try to analyze Shallan's priorities as she begins marriage. And as a sidenote, I was so happy for her that she finally found a measure of self acceptance, forgiveness, and joy in being herself.

But in literature, the first moments in a marriage almost always foreshadow how the relationship will turn out with examples from Anna Karenina to The Thornbirds to Dr. Thorne to even mush (sorry Twihards) like Twilight (notably, Wax and Steris have been a strange, but very! refreshing exception to the rule).

Nevertheless it is due diligence in literature to critically analyze the new couple's initial reactions, thoughts, and priorities.  For Dalinar it was 100% about Navani and for Navani it was about Dalinar. 

 I find it strikingly ominous that at no point does Shallan appear to be head over heels in love... in a fantasy novel... written by a notoriously incurable romantic. It's just not a good sign when the voices in your head sternly remind you that you could do worse...and that you probably couldn't do *much* better than him. That particular moment made me physically wince. 

Whitespines-- @maxal I like how you phrased your perspective re: the general alignment of WS with Adolin. It works without Adolin necessarily going dark. And I recall a moment in WOR where Kal, Shal, and Ad go to the menagerie where there was supposed to be a white spine. It wasn't doing well and Kal both respected and pitied it as one killer and former slave to another. One could easily align Kaladin with Whitespines as well--perhaps highlighting similarities between Adolin and himself. He made quite a point on the honor ship to mention how he languishes in imprisonment. And how many times does Shal liken him unto an impassioned or a confined "beast"?   Perhaps we are meant to see both men as wild creatures at heart.  Perhaps there is an even larger picture that I am missing as yet : ) 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Meghan1Q84

[Guest]

8 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Not necessarily.

Sure, if babysitters raise their child, it wouldn't necessarily be neglect in the physical/medical/educational sense, but in the emotional sense. A child needs their true parents or at least one of them (e.g. Evi). There can be a lot of feelings of not being loved by their parents, if they are not there for them. Note, I'm not talking about tutors or anything, but really babysitters. It would essentially be an uninvolved parenting style, which can lead to issues in the childs development.

Like @Dreamstorm already said, Brandon never really did those storylines. For instance, Vin and Elend never had a child and they were in a similar situation as Shallan and Adolin. They both were involved in a struggle against a Shard and the world was seemingly ending, so they both really have no time for pregnancies and parenting. Others might disagree, but on a whole, I think, that Vin and Shallan have more in common, than you might think. They just come from completely opposite backgrounds. Shallan came from a sheltered life of a noble, Vin came from the streets. Shallan needed to find her more street-like side with Veil, Vin needed to find her more noble-like side with Valette. If Vin and Elend made the choice to not have children (IIRC we have a WoB, that there were contraceptives during the Final Empire, so I wouldn't be surprised, if Roshar had something similar), I think Shallan and Adolin can do this too. Not the current "Shallan", but she still seems to confer with Veil and Radiant, who, I think, would be opposed to Shallan getting pregnant atm, since they both are a bit more pragmatic and seem to be aware, that they share a body. Radiant would probably say something like, "While it would be expected from you, Shallan, I think, it would be better to refrain from getting pregnant during the Desolation". Veil would probably say something like, "Are you stupid? The world is ending and you want to have children?"

Wouldn't it also be the natural course for Vin and Elend or Breeze and Allrianne to immediately have children after they were married?

And hell, Rosharan society is getting turned on its head anyway, so why even talk about expectations or natural courses?

Natural courses is something, that bugs me anyway. We are still reading a book. A book with a plotline, that is being followed. This isn't life, where a story gets written through multiple contingencies and branching paths, but rather by what the author intends to do.

Sure, there is the possibility of a child, but I don't see Brandon should opt to do something like this. It would add nothing to the main narrative (the conflict with Odium) and if he wanted to create conflict in Shallan's and Adolin's marriage, there is plently of other plot points, that he can pick up. For instance, that Veil still doesn't accept Adolin, only seeing him as a drinking buddy, which, if we're honest, is even below a normal friend, and probably still will have eyes for Kaladin. Those feelings won't be suddenly gone, because Shallan chose to push them away to Veil. Especially because she chose to push them off to Veil. We have the WoB, that he wanted to show, that a woman can love two men at the same time, which implies, that the choice Shallan made is not final yet. The way Veil talks about Adolin at the end ("He's good for you, I suppose."), indicates something similar. I'm sure, I hope, that there will be other conflict, but please don't drag an innocent child into this. It is cheap, emotional bait. Nothing more.

What would be interesting, would be to see how a child would grow up during such a time, but for that we still have Oroden and Gavinor. It is not like, that we don't already have children, that have connections to our MCs.

46 minutes ago, Meghan1Q84 said:

One could easily align Kaladin with Whitespines as well--perhaps highlighting similarities between Adolin and himself. He made quite a point on the honor ship to mention how he languishes in imprisonment. And how many times does Shal liken him unto an impassioned or a confined "beast"?   Perhaps we are meant to see both men as wild creatures at heart.  Perhaps there is an even larger picture that I am missing as yet : ) 

While it is true, that Kaladin hates imprisonment and really gets depressive in the prison, unlike the Whitespine Kaladin is no predator or someone, who likes to kill. He had a lot of qualms about killing those singers (his enemies) to the point, that he froze in combat. He is a soldier, yes, but a protector and not a killer. Shallan says, that Kaladin is very passionate, yes, but also, that he handles it with calm measure and control. Kaladin's passion isn't being caged, but he rather has it under control and applies it in doses. He can get impulsive at times, but calms down just as easily (e.g. the conversation with Jasnah, about what to do with the singers and the Heralds).

Adolin, I think, is just as passionate, but bottles it up, until it finally gets out. He does feel protective of his loved ones, but he doesn't feel protective of everyone. (Kind of like a lion would feel protective of his cubs, but not every cub.) He had no qualms slaughtering thousands of Parshendi during the War of Reckoning. Nor does he feel remorse for killing Sadeas. He reflects upon it, yes, but he doesn't feel remorse. (Hence, the predator killing its prey analogy) While I don't think, that he likes killing, I also don't think, that he hates it.

Edited December 6, 2017 by SLNC

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6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Let me know what you think.  There are two extremely obvious places where Adolin is overtly referenced as a whitespine, so that does say to me this is something intentional.  However, I don't know how much I believe it unless Adolin is going to go dark...

@Dreamstorm Good job!!! I've totally missed the whitespine as a persistent metaphor for Adolin, but as soon as you noted it, it started making sense. Now that's a good foreshadowing element I'd love to re-discover as I'm re-reading the books again. Thank you for sharing!

 

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Ask 10 different women and they will tell you 10 different tales. There is no right nor wrong mindset on the day of your marriage.

Yep. Society highlights the wedding day so much that people have raised their expectations on what to expect about it. In real life, it's nothing like a fairy tale ending. It's just another day, a formality, you go through to establish that your relationship with the person you are already set upon is someone you are willing to spend the rest of your life with. The wedding day itself isn't the day you decided you love that said person, but it takes a process to reach that point. Also, even if you do have the most perfect of days on your wedding day, just because you feel 'the happiest day of your life' it doesn't mean that you'll have a happy marriage. 

 

@SLNC I appreciate that you are a lot more receptive this morning than last night and I'm sorry if I seem set on having her go through a teenage pregnancy.

I assure you I am not, exactly because I have personal experience on the matter. (not me personally, but someone very close). 

But sometimes a story needs to have a 'worst case scenario' to prove a point. 

I'm mostly thinking 'what does it serve to the narrative for Adolin and Shallan to get married in the middle of the books?'. We've already witnessed young children being introduced in the story (Elhokar's son, Kaladin's baby brother, an abandoned child in Kholinar) so if there will be a huge time lapse between books 5 and 6, is the narrative leading us into a new generation of characters? If yes, I'd love to see Shallan's baby a part of it, although looking at all the foreshadowing surfacing about Adolin, I'm not sure how much he will be part of it.  

On a lighter note, my possible narrative could be subconsciously affected by the star wars hype these days...

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

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2 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I assure you I am not exactly because I have personal experience on the matter. (not me personally, but someone very close). 

Don't worry. It is the same for me, too. I have spent a few years in the German youth aid system and have seen a lot of... cases of children being emotionally neglected by their parents, often by teenage parents. That is why I am so vehemently against it. Then again, you do have a point, that it is 'just' a story.

4 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm mostly thinking 'what does it serve to the narrative for Adolin and Shallan to get married in the middle of the books?'. We've already witnessed young children being introduced in the story (Elhokar's son, Kaladin's baby brother, an abandoned child in Kholinar) so if there will be a huge time lapse between books 5 and 6, is the narrative leading us into a new generation of characters? If yes, I'd love to see Shallan's baby a part of it, although looking at all the foreshadowing surfacing about Adolin, I'm not sure how much he will be part of it.  

If Adolin's and Shallan's relationship seemed final and closed, I would probably have less of a problem with it. I'd still have the problem of voluntarily setting a child into this kind of world, not to mention I would find it irresponsible, because both Shallan and Adolin have integral parts in the conflict and could leave the child orphaned, but it doesn't seem to be like that. At all. And the thought of Shallan being a mother in her current state of mind is just disturbing to me. Imagine how the child must feel if its mother's personality has these heavy changes sometimes.

And yes, Adolin just can't stay like how he is right now. He either gets killed off or does become Odium's champion, which would coincide with what Dalinar saw in his vision. I know, that there still is the Maya revival story arc, but I think @DeployParachute has it right. Is it really important for the main narrative, if Maya gets revived? Or Adolin becomes an Edgedancer? We already have our Edgedancer with Lift. Sure, there can be more, but it isn't important.

[aemetha]

1 hour ago, Meghan1Q84 said:

He made quite a point on the honor ship to mention how he languishes in imprisonment. And how many times does Shal liken him unto an impassioned or a confined "beast"?   Perhaps we are meant to see both men as wild creatures at heart.  Perhaps there is an even larger picture that I am missing as yet : ) 

Kaladin has a severe case of seasonal affective disorder, which is caused by a lack of exposure to sunlight. He doesn't understand what seasonal affective disorder is, and so he links his confinement to his depression, when in reality it is his being held out of sunlight that is the primary cause of the depression he feels. The same thing can be seen in the weeping, and when he enters shadesmar - no sun, depression.