Harbour

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

2,388 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Agreed, I would wish for her realizations to come from a more internal place, but frankly, that had not been par for the course from what we have seen for her so far. Confronting hard truths has always seemed to be forced upon her from outside actors. I'd argue that future growth is likely to follow this trend.

So let's go further and talk about plotting support for an Adolin death scenario. Brandon had told us that he specifically worked at showing the reader that Shallan is capable of loving two different men for different reasons. As a Shalladin shipper, I can still recognize that the part of Shallan that loves Adolin is real, and has backing and support from the text. I also don't believe Brandon is the kind of person who believes that there is "the one" for everyone. He is more of "the one you choose" and that ties in heavily to where you are at in life, and what your goals are at that point in time. 

So, if you are Brandon, and you are exploring this facet of relationships and life goals changing over time using your main characters, how do you go about painting a convincing picture of a woman loving two men over the course of her life? Well, you lay out the foundation for feelings to be able to be present for both men, which he has done. Then it's a matter of exploring how one relationship ends, and the next begins. For Brandon, who has very pronounced religious views when it comes to honoring oaths and commitments for marriage, what are your options? I believe that divorce or adultery are still topics that Brandon would find he'd rather avoid for now (but I'm not saying he won't ever). So what is not taboo at this point? Death. Currently a widower being remarried is kosher, a divorcee is not. 

This... is really convincing me.  I really, really like what I bolded, because that helps bridge the contentiousness between the two ships.  (I mean, people will be devastated Adolin died, I will be devastated Adolin died, but it won't be evil Shallan who left poor Adolin or that Shallan's relationship with Adolin was fake.)  I still don't personally love it, but I think you make a very convincing case.  The point that Shallan has to be pushed to confront truths is especially a very good one.

For me (not that this matters to literally anyone else), this is also supported because a friend whose reading I trust, and who is not at all engrossed in the fandom, just finished the book and her reaction on this was (paraphrased): triangle was unconvincing, it's not over, I feel bad for Adolin because his heart is going to be broken, I bet he just dies, unlikely there's divorce in Vorinism anyway.

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14 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Agreed, I would wish for her realizations to come from a more internal place, but frankly, that had not been par for the course from what we have seen for her so far. Confronting hard truths has always seemed to be forced upon her from outside actors. I'd argue that future growth is likely to follow this trend.

So let's go further and talk about plotting support for an Adolin death scenario. Brandon had told us that he specifically worked at showing the reader that Shallan is capable of loving two different men for different reasons. As a Shalladin shipper, I can still recognize that the part of Shallan that loves Adolin is real, and has backing and support from the text. I also don't believe Brandon is the kind of person who believes that there is "the one" for everyone. He is more of "the one you choose" and that ties in heavily to where you are at in life, and what your goals are at that point in time. 

So, if you are Brandon, and you are exploring this facet of relationships and life goals changing over time using your main characters, how do you go about painting a convincing picture of a woman loving two men over the course of her life? Well, you lay out the foundation for feelings to be able to be present for both men, which he has done. Then it's a matter of exploring how one relationship ends, and the next begins. For Brandon, who has very pronounced religious views when it comes to honoring oaths and commitments for marriage, what are your options? I believe that divorce or adultery are still topics that Brandon would find he'd rather avoid for now (but I'm not saying he won't ever). So what is not taboo at this point? Death. Currently a widower being remarried is kosher, a divorcee is not. 

There is an underlying presumption that the marriage ceremony turns out okay. I'm not quite sold on that yet. It might be as simple as Sadeous's wife crashing the party in a breakdown scenario and accusing Adolin of murdering her husband and Dalinar of plotting against her. She was not there when her army and her general were subverted. Distraught,  grieving and in denial she could deny it. The marriage might still proceed but it would make for an interesting conflict among the humans.

 

We also have to understand that Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin will likely take a back seat in the next book with Eshonai and parshmen as the focus so that plot line might be too ambitious for everything else he wants to tell. Sanderson is clearly very picky with the content he develops and is not afraid of leaving important and seemingly very important plot lines undeveloped.

I fear we will get a bland wedding just like the murder of Sadeous had no effect on book 3. His writing style and focus on different characters is great but comes at the cost of continuity. The things you grow to like and become invested in are sidelined for new concepts plot lines and characters. We know what Brandon asked the nightwatcher for tho, don't we. The ability to create and envision elaborate worlds, characters and plot lines with the curse of not being able to finish them just when they get real good.

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35 minutes ago, Rainier said:

He's the one I see as myself in the story (because nobody sees themselves as slaughtered bridgeman #27)

So was he the one wearing the red shirt?

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7 minutes ago, invisbleblue said:

There is an underlying presumption that the marriage ceremony turns out okay.

It does. Dalinar mentions that at the end of the book.

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15 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

unlikely there's divorce in Vorinism anyway.

Well, there are no divorces in Catholic Church either. And yet, if someone would get into a marriage in Shallan's mental state, it would be a matter of formality to have it deemed null and void.

(I'm no expert in church laws, but it's not about accuracy, as these are two different religions anyway) 

Also, I'm turning out to be a terrible devil's advocate, I'll probably keep on sunbathing at the bow and daydreaming thank you very much. 

Edited by Ailvara
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I wanted to throw in this little passage after the meeting between Wit and Shallan:

Quote

"I see only one woman here. The one who is standing up." 

Adolin still held her for a time, as if he needed to reassure himself. "I know, you`r fine, of course" he said. "I mean you`re basically unkillable, right?" OB. p.794.

Then he rambles a bit about Shallan`s outfit, and Shallan thinks: "Oh, Adolin" .After that Kaladin comes along and we se Shallan only having eyes for him.

I think this is significant because in this passage after the meeting with Wit Shallan is arguably the "realest" in all of OB. 

She is clinging onto Adolin in this chapter physically "relaxing" into him. But Adolin completly misses the emotional state in which Shallan, the real one, is right now. By which I mean she is pretty devasted. Instead he just thinks she`s fine. Worse he thinks she`s basically fine all the time. ("of course").    

Still this is not really a decisive pro Shalladin passage. I think Brandon wants to leave real Shallan`s feelings unclear. Instead he leaves us likewise with some pro Shadolin bits. She relaxes into him. This could be read as her finding comfort in the presence of Adolin. Later she thinks to herself "Should I explain?" This refers to her outfit but also could be interpreted as Shallan explaining her emotional state to Adolin. Her just staring at Kaladin is also not a truly decisive argument that she is closer to Kaladin than to Adolin, who is literally holding her right now. 

So I think, Brandon goes to great length to upholding the ambiguity he has set up in OB regarding Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin. He is not going to destroy that ambiguity by some WoB. Nothing has been decided yet. 

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

 Brandon had told us that he specifically worked at showing the reader that Shallan is capable of loving two different men for different reasons. As a Shalladin shipper, I can still recognize that the part of Shallan that loves Adolin is real, and has backing and support from the text. I also don't believe Brandon is the kind of person who believes that there is "the one" for everyone. He is more of "the one you choose" and that ties in heavily to where you are at in life, and what your goals are at that point in time. 

 You nailed it, basically. Though me being a Shalladin shipper think that real Shallan is way closer to Kaladin emotionally than to Adolin.

Edited by Diomedes
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1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

For Brandon, who has very pronounced religious views when it comes to honoring oaths and commitments for marriage, what are your options?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Shallan is the last person who should care about oaths. Hers is the order that doesn't have oaths, after all, but instead powers up with self-awareness. He's got his out already built-in.

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3 hours ago, Awesomness said:

@Starla Regarding this, there was an interesting discussion going on at the Shallan Davar Disgust Thread (xD)

I´ll quote one of the posts, but there was more interesting insight. 

Personally, it gives me a little hope to know this matters were addressed and discussed.

I read this discussion in the other thread. It's good to know the beta readers discussed these topics as avidly than we do, but it doesn't help me understand Shallan's arc in this book. If you read the Reddit AMA, many of the beta readers there seemed satisfied with the resolution of Shallan choosing Adolin for stability (I think a lot of those were non-sharders). They acknowledge that she has a ways to go, but that it was a good step for her to solidify her personalities. This is where I get confused, because my initial gut instinct when I finished the book was to be disturbed at where Shallan ended. I made a post in the thread you quoted from, about how I think Shallan is an emotionally stunted 17 year old who grew up socially isolated, and has had no time to mature. The idea of her marrying a 23 year old man to find stability is a strange direction for her character. We know she is strong. We have seen glimpses of what she is capable of, but she is has a lot of growing up to do. Now she is the wife of a Highprince, probably expected to produce an heir, and she is a Knight Radiant responsible for the fate of the world. I don't see how she can realistically be ready for these responsibilities in her current condition.

 

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

1. BS states here that the romantic angle was tweaked as he was building up the split personality approach. Not that the romantic angle was created to reference the split personality approach. The romantic angle preexisted the split personalities, so the argument that Kaladin's emotions are used as a plot device is null and void. 

(and none of this is new, since the chemistry between Shallan and Kaladin was obvious in the chasm scene in WoR, the the split personas as an issue surfaced in OB)

This is a good point, but it seems like the direction of the narrative changed somewhere between WOR and OB, or at least temporarily sidetracked. It went from hinting/foreshadowing in WOR that there could be a viable relationship between Shallan and Kaladin (the braided rose concept that was discussed earlier in the thread), to Kaladin is not a viable alternative, but simply the object of lust of one Shallan's personas in OB. Yes, Veil existed in WOR, but the Veil persona never interacted with Kaladin that I am aware of, she certainly wasn't in the chasm. So what changed between WOR and OB? I'm not sure, really. Many in this thread have made good arguments that the larger story has yet to be told, and the ending of OB is just a blip on the radar. I'm not yet convinced of that, based on the WOBs we've seen and how a large majority of readers view the text so far, with Adolin and Shallan's marriage being a good step for her.

 

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

 

@Bliev Just wanted to add that your interpretations of the scene and what it meant to Shallan are totally valid, so I don't want to knock them.  My big thing about that scene is that Shallan is sitting down when she talks with Adolin (and he sees the real her or whatever) and then she stands up when Kaladin lands.  This has enormous symbolism for Shallan's character as the author told us (very explicitly) in her chapter with Wit called "The Girl Who Stood Up."  This is the stuff I can't get past - that's such an easy tweak for Brandon to have Shallan standing up when she talks to Adolin and then sit down when Kaladin lands.  The fact it's written the way it is means that it is either intentional (wants us to see this symbolism and know that it means something) or sloppy (forgot he established this symbolism in the first place/doesn't follow through with it.)  I just can't see another way to interpret it, and I choose intentional over sloppy.

Thanks for this statement. I'm going to try to interpret everything we've read so far as intentional. I have the upmost respect for Brandon as a writer and I think a part of my feeling of discomfort comes from the fact my initial reaction to Shallan's arc seems to have diverged so widely from his intent. However, we have only seen three books of a ten books series, so the story is far from over. This is why I normally wait until a series is complete to read, I really suck as loose endings and waiting years to find out what happens. :wacko:

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Hello to all the Shippers! (I've discovered this forum after reading OB and I'm thrilled to find so many great conversation) (...please slap me when I'll accidentally murder english language :D)

I love the way you analize all the stuff. If I may add my few thoughts on this subject:

- maybe the wedding is to show, that when you make so important decisions being so young and so quickly - you can make a mistake? (and it is ok to learn from mistakes)

- considering that Jasnah will be very busy, Shallan and Kal are still the best (and only) tutors for new Radiants - that should put them in a room together 

- Adolin will be busy with Maya for sure, and it is possible, that will distance him from Shallan (who in turn will have to drop the "good wifey" act to be more of a leader for new Lightweavers) and let him grow (not being in someone shadow for once).

 

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3 hours ago, Starla said:

If you read the Reddit AMA, many of the beta readers there seemed satisfied with the resolution of Shallan choosing Adolin for stability

3 hours ago, Starla said:

If you read the Reddit AMA, many of the beta readers there seemed satisfied with the resolution of Shallan choosing Adolin for stability

This! As a marketing professional I cannot but see this as something very deliberate. Of course the AMA is done as one of many promotional events, so of course they should´t start a heated discussion on the  (maybe)most polemic issue of the book. So we have happy shadowing shippers and neutral shalladin shippers.

Note: my innocence has been ruined by mkt and advertising studies and practice, so I don't mean to offend or question anyone´s integrity. This is just how I see things by default. If I am wrong, please feel free to point it out.

On the "Whishful thinking" topic: I think we could differentiate 2 very different readers profile by what ship they are shipping (?). Shadolin shippers seem to be very focussed on interaction. They also seem to be more grounded in how the relationship would work in real life. On the other hand, we clearly haven't seen much interaction between Kal and Shallan, but spent 42 pages of a thread discussing foreshadowing. This different perspectives are even addressed by Brandon in that video shared earlier on this thread about writing romance.

So we have 2 very reasonable, understandable and valid ways of interpreting a fictional work, one more reality-grounded, and one more figurative, more reliant on the suspension of disbelief. If this sociological theory is correct, no wonder why shipping wars escalate and never seem to find common ground. 

@PhineasGage You say there is not Shadolin foreshadowing, well it´s not needed... wether this foreshadowing will pay of, or the story will keep showing a realistic kind of relationships, time will tell.

I personally see myself as an unwilling Shalladin Shipper, I was annoyed when I caught the first hint, but couldn't ignore the clues. 

Edited by Awesomness
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2 hours ago, Awesomness said:

On the "Whishful thinking" topic: I think we could differentiate 2 very different readers profile by what ship they are shipping (?). Shadolin shippers seem to be very focussed on interaction. They also seem to be more grounded in how the relationship would work in real life. On the other hand, we clearly haven't seen much interaction between Kal and Shallan, but spent 42 pages of a thread discussing foreshadowing. This different perspectives are even addressed by Brandon in that video shared earlier on this thread about writing romance.

So we have 2 very reasonable, understandable and valid ways of interpreting a fictional work, one more reality-grounded, and one more figurative, more reliant on the suspension of disbelief. If this sociological theory is correct, no wonder why shipping wars escalate and never seem to find common ground. 

This is a great point. Talking about the Brandon video, he mentions how 3/4 of the True Blood readership was unhappy with the end of the romantic story (there were four love interests there apparently), and that’s something you want to avoid. Given that I think you totally nailed this on the head, how is he working to avoid this here? How can this ever be reconciled? (I guess only by finding a realistic way to break up Adolin and Shallan. Because you’re never going to satisfy us Shalladin crew if you just drop the literary elements completely, so you have to explore that romance in a legimate way which we didn’t get in OB. But I’m not sure the Shadolin shippers will ever be happy with a break up. I guess Adolin dying :mellow:)

My other comment on this is that I do think many readers can find valid, real-world reasons for not supporting the Shadolin ship; a reader could make a reality-based arguments that Kaladin is genuinely the better match for Shallan, regardless of the foreshadowing. Examples of such reasons I’ve seen mentioned include: Adolin and Shallan do not seem to connect on a deep level; Shallan doesn’t open up to Adolin (at least about her big secrets); Adolin is over protective (there are even these moments in OB towards the end one could point to; Ch 110, A Million Stars, “Shallan put her freehand on the frame of the open cargo door and leaned out over the churning depths. Adolin tried to to tug her back, but she remained in place.”), etc. (Cue @SLNC who can probably cite a hundred more.)  There’s been a ton of arguing over this, and I think it’s very personal and thus highly subjective. But I haven’t seen any foreshadowing or symbolism or any of the literary elements supporting Shadolin. (I would love for someone to point them out to me if they exist. I think they are necessary to fully sell even an obvious storyline btw!) If there was none of this for either, I think we would still have this raging debate because readers want different things from a romance, but on one side we have a bunch of reality-based arguments and no support in the extra-literary elements (just made up that term...) and on the other we still have a bunch of reality-based arguments but also plenty of extra-literary elements. So I don’t think it’s solely a certain way of reading fiction versus the other. I think the purest shippers are reading it the same way and debating which ship is best, and then the kicker (which gets you and me on board!) are those who see the literary elements as dispositive. 

Edited by Dreamstorm
Clarified point re Shalladin reality-based arguments
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21 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Adolin and Shallan do not seem to connect on a deep level.

That is you being biased. I've read many shadolin shippers saying they do connect deeply, for different reasons. Anyway, I don't think this is black and white.

Maybe I should make an in depth analysis of both ships arguments to classify and count them down...:unsure:

Edited by Awesomness
autocorrectionspren
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26 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

That is you being biased. I've read many shadolin shippers saying they do connect deeply, for different reasons. Anyway, I don't think this is black and white.

Maybe I should make an in depth analysis of both ships arguments to classify and count them down...:unsure:

No no you misunderstood what I was saying. I’m saying shippers can make reality-based arguments for why they think Shalladin is better than Shadolin even absent the foreshadowing. So there’s reality-based arguments on both sides (ie it’s not all reality vs all literary components.) I’ll revise the post.

ETA: Hopefully how I edited conveys this point better. I would love that in-depth analysis! I mean what else will you do for the next three years....

Edited by Dreamstorm
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United, new beginnings sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!" Sing beginnings, new unity.

So, I've been brooding about Jasnah's ketek on the occasion of Shallan's wedding.

United obviously means, the state Shallan and Adolin are in now. And the new beginnings of that state sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!"

I think that "love" is supposed to be Shallan and is the addressee. Or that their love just defies truth, but I'm still sure, that Shallan is the addressee of the ketek.

Basicially, the marriage, as that is supposed to be the "new beginning", tells Shallan to keep defying the truth, which would correlate with the ending of OB. The imperative ("Truth defy!" or "Defy truth!", I think the switch is a poetic device here to make it form the ketek) is indicative here.

Though I don't know what to make of: "Sing beginnings, new unity." That Shallan needs a new beginning to find new unity within herself? Could that be foreshadowing, that Adolin dies? Because the marriage will keep her from accepting truth? Or is it just, that beginnings sing to the new unity/marriage.

Thoughts? Because, quite frankly, I'm bad at interpreting poetry. :D

Edited by SLNC
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2 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Here is an interesting YouTube video explaining why we all may never agree.  Forget the story,  the quotes, the WOB, we have made up our minds.

transparent_pixel.pngI may have messed up this link.

Just paste the link. YouTube will autoembed.

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3 hours ago, SLNC said:
Quote

United, new beginnings sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!" Sing beginnings, new unity.

So, I've been brooding about Jasnah's ketek on the occasion of Shallan's wedding.

United obviously means, the state Shallan and Adolin are in now. And the new beginnings of that state sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!"

I think that "love" is supposed to be Shallan and is the addressee. Or that their love just defies truth, but I'm still sure, that Shallan is the addressee of the ketek.

Basicially, the marriage, as that is supposed to be the "new beginning", tells Shallan to keep defying the truth, which would correlate with the ending of OB. The imperative ("Truth defy!" or "Defy truth!", I think the switch is a poetic device here to make it form the ketek) is indicative here.

Though I don't know what to make of: "Sing beginnings, new unity." That Shallan needs a new beginning to find new unity within herself? Could that be foreshadowing, that Adolin dies? Because the marriage will keep her from accepting truth? Or is it just, that beginnings sing to the new unity/marriage.

@SLNC You know I'm with you on most foreshadowing points, but apart from the bit that Shallan is love, the rest is both of us having wishful thinking here.

For any person reading this, we do not mean that Jasnah knows anything about the future and thus foreshadowing the marriage, but her intention is to wish a happy marriage to the newly weds. We are just exploring the possibility that through the text itself, BS takes the opportunity to foreshadow the future of the marriage, because it's written in a way that it has a dual interpretation. From the rest of the excerpts in OB, I'm pretty sure he is plainly trolling us.

So, how I interpret it is:

part a :

United (both of you Shallan and Adolin), new beginnings sing (your marriage celebrates): "Defying truth (defy all the problems that reality might raise), love (just love. it is the solution to everything).

part b:

, love (love is powerful). Truth defy (it can defy reality)! " Sing beginnings (promise a beginning) , new unity (of a new unity).

So the part a is for Adolin, part b is for Kalladin, with both of them focusing on the word love, who is obviously Shallan. (back to my theory that women are of cultivation)

 

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@insert_anagram_here

I agree, that that isn't Jasnah's intention, but rather a device Sanderson uses.

How I meant with "love" representing Shallan was like an affectionate nickname (eg. how Navani calls Dalinar "gemheart"), since it is used in quotation marks indicating speech, but I could be wrong.

Then again, your interpretation makes a lot of sense and is more abstract, which seems more correct.

Edited by SLNC
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Hello, everyone! I'm glad to be rejoining the discussion. I see that we've confortably passed 1000 replies! Wonderful!

So here's what I, currently, take issue with. If the whole triangle what set up as a character development through her choice for Shallan, why enter Kaladin's feelings into it? If she had to make a coice regarding which person was "good" for her and that choice had to always be from the beginning Adolin,  because without him she "fades" (I still almost vomit in my mouth when thinking of that line), what was the reasoning for Kaladin to have romantic feelings for her? If he was to vaguely associate her with his brother, so therefore he doesn't really love her (which as a sentiment and phrasing makes absolutely no sense to me), why not have it be like that from the beginning? Why not have something like: "Hey, that lighteyes reminds me somewhat of Tien. I have brotherly feelings toward her and I want to protect her. That's storming strange but I want to protect a lighteyes. Maybe I'm too prejudiced towards them and some are good"? I know that I'm not much of a writter but wouldn't that be a better plot for Kaladin to get through one of his issues? Shallan could still lust after him but in the end she could decide that he isn't for her, since it's just passion from her and he doesn't see her like that. I'd be more that fine with that. Instead what we get is the beginnings of a romantic plot that gets killed within a couple of pages with the weakest of reasoning  from all sides and feels like a complete mishandling of all characters involved, while being written in a very archetypal and uninteresting manner ("Without you I fade" *blergh*). 

Another thing I want to address is that I'm fine with an author intentionally misdirecting me (i.e. the big Mistborn misdirection), but that feels more like deceiving and toying with me. I feel I got teased by promises made with the intention to never be followed through, or at least have a conclusion that hangs together believably which might have disappointed me but I could get behind it in time.

Edited by DimChatz
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2 hours ago, DimChatz said:

So here's what I, currently, take issue with. If the whole triangle what set up as a character development through her choice for Shallan, why enter Kaladin's feelings into it? If she had to make a coice regarding which person was "good" for her and that choice had to always be from the beginning Adolin,  because without him she "fades" (I still almost vomit in my mouth when thinking of that line), what was the reasoning for Kaladin to have romantic feelings for her?

Yes, this is also what I thought! Why put Kaladin's feelings into that and why make a part of Shallan actually feel the same? His acceptance at the end feels so fake, because we already know, that his feelings are completely different (sensing what makes Shallan happy and wanting to give her that happiness, feeling jealous).

2 hours ago, DimChatz said:

Another thing I want to address is that I'm fine with an author intentionally misdirecting me (i.e. the big Mistborn misdirection), but that feels more like deceiving and toying with me. I feel I got teased by promises made with the intention to never be followed through, or at least have a conclusion that hangs together believably which might have disappointed me but I could get behind it in time.

Absolutely agreed. And we know, that Sanderson can pull this off better, like you said, the Mistborn misdirection, so I have to think, that it must have been intentional. I don't believe Sanderson to be so sloppy in his writing.

I know, that his romance writing is something that is often criticized, but this decision Shallan makes is only romantic as a byproduct. She doesn't choose Adolin because she loves him, but because he seems to be good for her mental distress (at least in Shallan's opinion). I know, that she later says to herself, that she does (and I'd argue, that she only thinks that because she thinks, that she is supposed to think that), but her decision is not based on that.

Edited by SLNC
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One quick question, has anyone talked about Shallan losing a decent portion of her soul in the battle in the end? 

How much of her soul did she loose? a quarter, a third, even half? 

The thing is her behaviour in the end does not make sense from the perspective of her arc. Her feelings both for Kaladin and Adolin intesify on the ship to Thaylen. The hints on both side get bigger (leering onto Kaladin and more, the dialogue with Adolin). No developement rejecting Kaladin takes place. 

I think this can be fixed. Dalinar also healed the wounds in his soul by being exposed to the Honorblade. But I think it will take Shallan some time to do that. 

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2 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

One quick question, has anyone talked about Shallan losing a decent portion of her soul in the battle in the end? 

What do you mean? Losing her soul?

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5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Absolutely agreed. And we know, that Sanderson can pull this off better, like you said, the Mistborn misdirection, so I have to think, that it must have been intentional. I don't believe Sanderson to be so sloppy in his writing.

I, too, want to be believe that it's all intentional but I can't for the life of me stop thinking that BS might have just made a  mistake this time and that I should just accept it and move on. Which I simply cannot do, since I'm a fan so I kinda have to point out everything I both like and dislike with the hope that it's fixed. I have more to say on the matter of being a fan but that's neither the point of this thread and I'm afraid that I'll come across as unfair, harsh and presumptuous so I won't publically share my thoughts on this. (PM me if you'd like to hear more).

 

19 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yes, this is also what I thought! Why put Kaladin's feelings into that and why make a part of Shallan actually feel the same? His acceptance at the end feels so fake, because we already know, that his feelings are completely different (sensing what makes Shallan happy and wanting to give her that happiness, feeling jealous).

I hope it's just Kaladin trying, and potentialy failing, to handle his feelings as to avoid future jealousy ( a very negative emotion when directed to friends) and misery, but it just might be a quick way to "kill" the plotline in a presumably satisfying manner (says my pessimistic part).

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8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

What do you mean? Losing her soul?

Quote

She`d made thousands of illusions. Each one.... Each one was her.

A portion of her mind

A portion of her soul.

(...) her illusions resisted when the enemy hit them. (...)

Each one of her illusions, that died.  OB  p.1160. 

The "illusions" are made up of Shallans soul and are dying by the thousands. Thus always a little part of her sould dies.

Edit: it is even clearer here 

Quote

Each one of her illusions that died hit her with a little shock. A sliver of her dying.

 

Edited by Diomedes
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Morning all - ready for another Phin-takes-over-the-page post? I hope so. If not just ignore me and carry on :) I had some problems quoting this morning so if i've missed anyone i'm sorry.

17 hours ago, SLNC said:

He tried not to think of refugees who would be packed into stuffy public shelters, clutching their meager possessions and hoping some of what they were forced to leave behind would survive the storm.

So this is your quote and I just want to point out that Veil has an almost identical thought regarding the refugees (can't find the quote tho). Essentially Shallan has pushed her worries onto the Veil alt. I dont think Adolin is having this kind of thought at all. Perhaps I am denigrating him, but he goes out of his way to buy a new outfit whereas both Kaladin and Shallan go out of their way to help the people of Kholinar whilst doing the reconnaissance required. 

16 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Also, I'm curious to know just how you think Kaladin is OP? His powers have very clearly defined purposes and constraints so far that we've seen. He can do his lashings, and he might be able to control pockets of gaseous pressure soon, but it doesn't seem like we are going to have many more revealing aspects of what he can do additionally to what we have seen. His abilities seem well bounded by rules, and as readers we can pretty much guess at what the inherent limitations will be going into the future.

On the other hand, I feel that both Shallan and Jasnah are super OP. We seem to be constantly discovering new ways their powers can be used and applied, and soulcasting, as powered by sufficient stormlight, has a number of seemingly infinite possibilities not just in battle, but outside of it too. Their abilities seem to be able to be applied to large groups of people, in a variety of ways (especially illumination/transformation together resulting in soulcasted illusions?).  Kaladin's abilities have to be applied directly to people, through touch, and usually one thing/person at a time. I dunno, just my thoughts on the matter.

So I was actually referring to the KR as a whole. That said, I think both Jasnah and Shallan are at least 1 level ahead of Kaladin so they would be more powerful. Remember that adhesion is actually the surge related to air pressure. Imagine if he can essentially suck all the air out of an area. He could suffocate an entire army in theory. That's pretty OP. Or he could massively increase air pressure in an area and make people's lungs burst --> killing them. I don't see Kaladin as a person doing that but there is no reason why he couldn't in theory.

15 hours ago, Starla said:

There was also a WOB that Shallan is getting better at the end of Oathbringer, though she still has a ways to go. This seems to confirm the idea that Shallan has validated, or committed to, a specific persona by choosing the man that particular persona prefers. And now that she has made a choice, she has set her feet on the road to recovery. This bothers me, as I have rambled on about in countless posts. Am I misinterpreting? I am hoping that if I ponder this question long enough, it will become clear at some point.

I actually think it is a little more nuanced than that. Shallan has bought herself time to heal and reintroduce herself to her whole identity. In OSDD there are periods at the beginning that dominating over your alts can be helpful and perhaps this is what BS is aiming at. I think that if Shallan were real she'd actually be past that stage but he has to be allowed a little licence to tell the story the way he wants ;) . She still has to understand how to manage her anxiety (which is still going to cause her problems) and perhaps Adolin can help with that, but once she reintegrates then she will have to really understand that she is all three of her alts. Not just one of them. She may still decide that Adolin is the bet option, but the realisation that approximately 2/3rd of her don't love him is going to be painful for the both of them I think. As she reintegrates, she may realise that enough of her oves him so it doesn't matter. Or she may decide to go another way. I feel the foreshawdowing points away from Adolin, but either way it doesn't actually matter - she has only take the first step and we all know that the most important step is the next one !

14 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

One thing I would love to see from anyone is foreshadowing/literary subtext in support of Shadolin.  I totally feel convinced from what we overtly see on the page that they could have a productive relationship (don't want to argue this point since I know others differ in this view), but I don't feel guided into that conclusion by less obvious means.  Can anyone find something?

I had a go at this when I wrote my WoR essay - and it is really difficult. Firstly, because (for me) Kaladin and the wind are so closely entwined that it is difficult not to see Kaladin when you see the word wind and vice versa. Adolin is not personified in quite the same way though if I had to choose something I'd choose light - especially sunlight, and this is more obvious in OB than it was previously. Indeed I don't think I specifically addressed it. Shallan is also personified by light more than anything so it can be difficult to identify when "light" should be inferred as Adolin or Shallan. That being said, in OB particularly, Shallan might be identified with light, but she is actually drawn to darkness/storms/rain etc. I am still doing my heavy re-read notetaking thing which is looking at everything I think is interesting, not just related to shipping, so it's slow going. Once it is done, I'll pull something more concrete together.

14 hours ago, Bliev said:

Two things that stood out to me:

I think it's interesting that Brandon intended that (a) Adolin saw the "real" Shallan not bc of magic or because of chance but because he was paying so much attention to her. To me, that seems to be the major thing for Shallan, that someone loves her enough (no matter whether that love is mature/fully actualized/whatever) to pay attention to her and her struggles. She didn't have to act for him. And that gives her strength. And (b) that Shallan's ability to (mostly) control her personas and understand them, and to choose, was a big development for her character (and that Wit would agree). This supports my initial interpretation, which I was beginning to doubt after spending days on the forums! haha

I didn't read that WoB the same way at all actually. I get this is your interpretation and it is perfectly valid, but the problem with WoBs is (a) they are not actually proper canon - he reserves the right to change things and (b) because we don't know where he is going, his remarks might work for all kinds of outcmes. They therefore have to be taken with a pinch of salt - or at least be very careful when interpreting them. As soon as we move away from the actual language used we run the possibility of essentially creating new meaning via a kind of chinese-whispers.

I also don't think BS has explicitly states that the "real" Shallan Adolin sees is actually any more real than Veil or Radiant. Indeed he hints at the opposite when he says that she would be seen as one soul, not 3 (can anyone find me the link to this WoB please?)

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

The WoB merely states, that Adolin recognized her, because he picked up visual cues. This merely means, that he was more perceptive right there and that is why Shallan chose Adolin.

I am not sure it matters how Adolin recognises her. Mainly because I am of the opinion that in order to "recognise" one aspect you have to assume the others are essentially products of a diseased mind (ie hallucinations or whatever). Shallan's mind is not diseased, it is broken into pieces but it otherwise functions normally. 

14 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Bliev Just wanted to add that your interpretations of the scene and what it meant to Shallan are totally valid, so I don't want to knock them.  My big thing about that scene is that Shallan is sitting down when she talks with Adolin (and he sees the real her or whatever) and then she stands up when Kaladin lands.  This has enormous symbolism for Shallan's character as the author told us (very explicitly) in her chapter with Wit called "The Girl Who Stood Up."  This is the stuff I can't get past - that's such an easy tweak for Brandon to have Shallan standing up when she talks to Adolin and then sit down when Kaladin lands.  The fact it's written the way it is means that it is either intentional (wants us to see this symbolism and know that it means something) or sloppy (forgot he established this symbolism in the first place/doesn't follow through with it.)  I just can't see another way to interpret it, and I choose intentional over sloppy.

Yes, I am very much looking forward to you analysis of this. I think it likely has intersting things in other places too. I'll probably go back and see if there is other input elsewhere in WoR/tWoK that might also fit with this idea. Unless of course you are doing that too?

13 hours ago, SLNC said:
14 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

But, there IS an absolute truth about where the author is pointing us (or there should be, and based on what Brandon says in lectures, he subscribes to this), and so there is likely a way to objectively, taking one's emotions out of it, tease out that truth.  I don't see any "teasing out" going on with Adolin and I see so storming much with Kaladin, that I was fully won over to the Shalladin side.

Also true. It really is a difficult topic to discuss.

I think it would be easier if we had concrete "foreshadowing" like we have identified for Shalladin. I think light and sunlight should probably be our guiding star (pun intended) on this one. See when Shallan sepcifically thinks about the sun. The only other aspect that I can think of is natural history vs art.

13 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic.

This is part of the reason I was a little distraught over his end state at OB, because without something for him to actively do (especially with regards to himself), it certainly seems a good probability that his days are numbered.

Yes, he was safer not being married to Shallan. Probably would have been better off with May Aladar (who seems to have been introduced randomly frequently in OB?) and just hitting a greater side character role. I think the one thing keeping him alive right now is the Sadeas murder and the lack of ramifications from that. Once that goes, he loses a lot of plot points tying him to life - only the Maya arc is left imo and I'm not sure that is going to be a happy ending - I just can't quite see a cultivationspren going "oh yeah murder thats just fine with me". 

@invisbleblue - Welcome aboard the not-yet-sinking-but-definitely-in-trouble SS Shalladin. We've got great wifi and dental, but the food is all gone and we're out of water too - try not to drink the seawater - it makes you craaaaaaazy. *ahem*.

13 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I would rather expect Adolin's death to be partly influenced by Shallan's revelation; now wouldn't that be tragic (and very interesting). 

Yes I agree. I think he has a serious possibility of being Odium's champion as a result. Note that the idea of a champion is still going according to Mr T at the end. Dalinar "recognised" something in the eyes of the champion he saw in the vision. Whilst I think it also hinted that he could be the champion (and nearly was) I don't think that's it over and done. Renarin is invisible to Odium afaik so it can't be him. That, to me anyway, leaves Kaladin and Adolin. Kaladin isn't going to be destroyed by Odium imo - he's immune to the Thrill so likely safer from Odium than Adolin is (who we know does feel the Thrill) in all kinds of ways. On top of that Adolin can be impulsive and reckless in a way that Kaladin rarely is. If SHallan's revelation hurts Adolin (seems likely) then he could go down that route. 

13 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I see this a lot on the forums on justifying the Shallan - Adolin perspective as a proper ending, but I believe it actually proves the opposite.

1. BS states here that the romantic angle was tweaked as he was building up the split personality approach. Not that the romantic angle was created to reference the split personality approach. The romantic angle preexisted the split personalities, so the argument that Kaladin's emotions are used as a plot device is null and void. 

(and none of this is new, since the chemistry between Shallan and Kaladin was obvious in the chasm scene in WoR, the the split personas as an issue surfaced in OB)

2. The fact that BS has taken such good care building the romantic (tri)angle, proves that he wanted both outcomes to be able to convince the readers. So all the foreshadowing and clues are obviously done deliberately and since nothing really ever happened between Shallan and Kaladin, it's pretty obvious we should expect something to happen there. At some point. I just don't know how soon that will be

1) Good point - he adjusted it to make the split more noticeable but he didn't add it to make it more noticable.

2) Not sure that we can say this for certain. I trust that BS is a good author who hasn't put the foreshadowing in for no reason and therefore I agree with you. BUT I think it is possible that we have read too much into it and could still be disappointed. Thats more a devil's advocacy position, but it needs to be said.

13 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This particular bit reminded me of this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8310

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

As you look at the Double Eye, is there a pattern for Honor and Cultivation's disparate influences on each Surge or Order?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are philosophers who think that there are, but-- it is more straightforward than those philosophers think it is.

Coincidence ? I do not think so...

Sorry, I'm thick so I'm not sure what you are getting at here - please ELI5 for me?

13 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I may be a horrible person for saying/thinking this. But it would be fascinating if Shallan was the one who killed Adolin. There are a few ways that might end up happening too. That would be a fun road to go down.

"Fun" for a given value of fun ;) I think it is going to be Kaladin personally, and he is going to do so only very reluctantly - after all he has spent much of his arc learning to like and value adolin.

13 hours ago, Rainier said:

So maybe not a red herring, but a blue herring.

ROFL. Nominated for Ship's Comedian?

13 hours ago, Rainier said:

But it's #2 that led me to believe that Kaladin wants Shallan. It's the clues about their connection, their subtle similarities despite their obvious differences, that made her into (what I think is) the object of Kaladin's desire. It's #2 that makes me angry because while I'm firmly on Kaladin's side in everything because of #1, it's because of #2 that I'm on Kaladin's side vs Adolin in the Great Shallan Shipping Wars (2014-present). 

Yes this is similar to how i got there too. I also got there because i like Shallan and i think the foreshadowing points this way from that angle too. I have long felt that Adolin wants a relationship for its own sake rather than the specific person.

13 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

So let's go further and talk about plotting support for an Adolin death scenario. Brandon had told us that he specifically worked at showing the reader that Shallan is capable of loving two different men for different reasons. As a Shalladin shipper, I can still recognize that the part of Shallan that loves Adolin is real, and has backing and support from the text. I also don't believe Brandon is the kind of person who believes that there is "the one" for everyone. He is more of "the one you choose" and that ties in heavily to where you are at in life, and what your goals are at that point in time. 

I kinda mentioned my own Adolin death scenario above if you are interested. I am not sure I like Brandon's use of "love" in this WoB tho - I think it was used to ensure we understood that her feelings for both Kaladin and Adolin are not that different in terms of their intensity. I do very much agree that choice is very important to him but that begs the question why he made Shallan choose either one when she could (and probably should) have chosen neither.

12 hours ago, invisbleblue said:

There is an underlying presumption that the marriage ceremony turns out okay. I'm not quite sold on that yet. It might be as simple as Sadeous's wife crashing the party in a breakdown scenario and accusing Adolin of murdering her husband and Dalinar of plotting against her. She was not there when her army and her general were subverted. Distraught,  grieving and in denial she could deny it. The marriage might still proceed but it would make for an interesting conflict among the humans.

As said elsewhere, the wedding goes off without a hitch - we see Dalinar think about it afterwards when he is writing his book. Given we also have a time-skip coming it would be odd not to see that conflict on screen and in real-time.

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Shallan is the last person who should care about oaths. Hers is the order that doesn't have oaths, after all, but instead powers up with self-awareness. He's got his out already built-in.

Yes indeed - at best (in terms of staying married) if she admits that she doesn't love Adolin then she has to stay in a loveless marriage whilst pining for either freedom, the man she loves, or both. Wow wouldn't that be a story of sunshine and cake.... The marriage should only be continued if she does actually love Adolin. Anything else would be detrimental to her story. 

8 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Here is an interesting YouTube video explaining why we all may never agree

I guess this is one referring to confirmation bias? If so it is a very good point. This is why I think we need evidence wherever possible and not just "i feel" kind of stuff. I know there is a lot of stuff that can be seen as foreshadowing for Shalladin - because I can find it. From my perspective, I found much less evidence (in book) for the safety and security of Adolin/Shallan marriage and that this is over. I would love someone to put together a complete list of Shadolin stuff - and argue point for point against the foreshadowing for Shalladin - not just "oh you are just reading too much into it" which is not a valid argument when addressing an author that we all know likes foreshadowing. 

8 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Maybe I should make an in depth analysis of both ships arguments to classify and count them down.

Yes please! You will probably get started on it sooner than i can for one thing but also the more people that do this the better. We will all spot/miss different things and come to different conclusions.

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

So, I've been brooding about Jasnah's ketek on the occasion of Shallan's wedding

Yeah I think this is possibly more important than it appears at first glance. Especially given the "Winds Alight" (Wind = Kal, Light = Shallan) ketek from Navani in WoR. I am not so good at this kind of thing either. Prose I can do, poetry, not so much.

11 hours ago, Starla said:

They acknowledge that she has a ways to go, but that it was a good step for her to solidify her personalities. This is where I get confused, because my initial gut instinct when I finished the book was to be disturbed at where Shallan ended.

Yes I felt this way too. It was very odd. I also felt that the group was almost pushed into consensus at the end (well, more that group dynamics tend to result in consensus)  - Shalladin shippers came round to the idea of Shadolin, and for the life of me I can't understand why. I mean, I can - group dynamics are very important when we form opinions but the group dynamic -> opinion  and the book seem to contradict each other to me.

2 hours ago, DimChatz said:

If the whole triangle what set up as a character development through her choice for Shallan, why enter Kaladin's feelings into it?

I agree - unless it is done explicitly to show that he can (and imo will) go there eventually.

25 minutes ago, SLNC said:

His acceptance at the end feels so fake, because we already know, that his feelings are completely different

Actually I thought his "acceptance" is exactly the same as he had at the end  of WoR. He just doesn't feel worthy (yet) so he isn't going to fight for her. I don't think he'll actually drop the atraction as much as he'd like to make himself believe. I feel we may see Shallan and Kaladin separated in the time skip so each thinks they have gotten over each other and then they get pushed together again and thus sparks fly.

1 minute ago, Diomedes said:

The "illusions" are made up of Shallans soul and are dying by the thousands. Thus always a little part of her sould dies.

Iirc, she then resurrects them as they die. I don't think they are actually being destroyed. I agree tho that she is "doing it wrong" and needs to do more like what Wit does in the epilogue to lightweave safely on Roshar.

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15 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Actually I thought his "acceptance" is exactly the same as he had at the end  of WoR. He just doesn't feel worthy (yet) so he isn't going to fight for her. I don't think he'll actually drop the atraction as much as he'd like to make himself believe. I feel we may see Shallan and Kaladin separated in the time skip so each thinks they have gotten over each other and then they get pushed together again and thus sparks fly.

I agree on this. It is, in a way, Kaladin's coping mechanism for disappointment. Also fits his depression. But what I meant with fake is, that we see, that he doesn't just see her as another Tien. He is genuinely interested in her... and not just in brotherly way.

15 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I also don't think BS has explicitly states that the "real" Shallan Adolin sees is actually any more real than Veil or Radiant. Indeed he hints at the opposite when he says that she would be seen as one soul, not 3 (can anyone find me the link to this WoB please?)

You're correct.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan's personas. How would they be viewed in the Spiritual Realm? Would they be an individual? Or would they be seen as being slightly separate?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They would be seen as an individual.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8785

17 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

The "illusions" are made up of Shallans soul and are dying by the thousands. Thus always a little part of her sould dies.

Hm. Afaik those illusions she sent were all different alters of herself, that she had been envisioning and drawing. It could easily be figurative speech, but we shouldn't dismiss it as impossible, that there is a realmatic background to it.

Edited by SLNC
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