[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Harbour]

Quote

She wanted to shrink from it.

-Mmm, - Pattern said. -This is a good you, Shallan.

A good me. She breathed out.

-We're decided upon this, - Shallan said.

-This is good, Shallan.

-A celebration, - Veil said. - A celebration of you.

-Its okay for me to enjoy this, - Shallan said, as if discovering something precious. - Its all right to celebrate. Even if things are terrible in the world, Its all right.

She smiled.

-I deserve this.

It was all right to be happy.

Someone have already mentioned this scene, and i decided to reread it closer.

That inner dialogue could have been read from the two perspectives: literal and given the subtext. From literal perspective  its all okay, even if cheesy. She encourages herself. But givent the subtext and context its all the different story.

1) Pattern usually uses his "Mmmm" with "This is a good lie". And he usually likes when Shallan does a good lie. Here he said "Mmmm, this is the good you", with emphasis on "you". It looks like he implies that she is lying good again.

2) A good me. Emphasis again and then she breathed out. It looks like she got what Pattern mean and breathed out because subconsciously she knows its a bitter truth.

3)Then she decided to go further. Why? Ill mention that later.

4)Veil and Radiant encourage her too. Again, they repeat that its the celebration of who Shallan is. The celebration of the liar. It becomes so clear.

5)What Shallan says after that just solidify my confidence. Its all right to celebrate the lie. Even if everything is terrible its okay to ignore it. Its all right. In fact here she accepts the lie as the wall to hide behind.

6)Its all right to be happy. Again the emphasis. Here Shallan basically says that by lying to herself she tries to be happy. Thats why she decide to go further. She wants to be happy. Will she be happy lying? Who knows?

In fact Sanderson did a good job showing us how Shallan surround herself with the wall of lie to ignore terrible things.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Harbour

[Marns]

6 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Someone have already mentioned this scene, and i decided to reread it closer.

That inner dialogue could have been read from the two perspectives: literal and given the subtext. From literal perspective  its all okay, even if cheesy. She encourages herself. But givent the subtext and context its all the different story.

1) Pattern usually uses his "Mmmm" with "This is a good lie". And he usually likes when Shallan does a good lie. Here he said "Mmmm, this is the good you", with emphasis on "you". It looks like he implies that she is lying good again.

2) A good me. Emphasis again and then she breathed out. It looks like she got what Pattern mean and breathed out because subconsciously she knows its a bitter truth.

3)Then she decided to go further. Why? Ill mention that later.

4)Veil and Radiant encourage her too. Again, they repeat that its the celebration of who Shallan is. The celebration of the liar. It becomes so clear.

5)What Shallan says after that just solidify my confidence. Its all right to celebrate the lie. Even if everything is terrible its okay to ignore it. Its all right. In fact here she accepts the lie as the wall to hide behind.

6)Its all right to be happy. Again the emphasis. Here Shallan basically says that by lying to herself she tries to be happy. Thats why she decide to go further. She wants to be happy. Will she be happy lying? Who knows?

In fact Sanderson did a good job showing us how Shallan surround herself with the wall of lie to ignore terrible things.

I completly agree with you, and it breaks my heart.  

[PhineasGage]

11 minutes ago, Harbour said:

2) A good me. Emphasis again and then she breathed out. It looks like she got what Pattern mean and breathed out because subconsciously she knows its a bitter truth.

Doesn't she breathe out to complete a lightweaving usually? Has she created a "perfect wife Shallan by mistake?

[Ziggo]

I'm glad this struck others off beat as well. Kaladin and Shallan don't have live the happily ever after for me to be satisfied but I really dislike the Shallan/Adolin relationship as presented, and maybe thats intentional by BS. Kaladin is the only person around that least recgonizes that the "Shallan" we have seen is just another mask. Adolin doesn't recognize her, he just recgonizes the Shallan mask, and worse, validates the personality split by treating veil differently. This is just wrong on so many levels, he doesn't love her, faults and all, he loves the Shallan mask.

 

I do think Kaladin was drawn to her because of his brother. There was a mention somewhere in the book about another proto-radiant being among Amarams army, but that they had perished before they needed to be dealt with. I think Tien was a proto-lightweaver, remember his beautiful horse carving (when he should have been making a chair) and it's implied that Kaladin thinks that similarity is what he felt in his connection with Shallan, so maybe a strong friendship is all there is there, and that is ok. But the Adolin/Shallan thing... Ick.  

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, Ziggo said:

I think Tien was a proto-lightweaver,

Great catch, I totally missed that - I was wondering who it might be and didnt even consider Tien as a possible option. He might have been "broken" by his time in the army and certainly saw the beauty in things that others couldn't see. I also agree that whilst I still feel Kaladin/Shallan is a better fit, I am not anti-Adolin/Shallan - but I dont think the current situation is good for Adolin or Shallan. If Shallan can get over her issues then I am happy to get behind them!

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I am not anti-Adolin/Shallan

I am, unless their relationship gets some meaning and not just some Star Wars Prequel level dialogue and swooning. Otherwise, yeah, why not.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

gets some meaning and not just some Star Wars Prequel level dialogue

Sorry I should have been more specific - i meant exactly this. If I have to read more nauseating stuff I might just let my SO read it and redact the soppiness for me before I read it! Or have a shower after each icky moment.

Side note, am about 2/3rds way through second read now and the kaladin/shallan stuff is literally everywhere. I am tempted to type out the book without them and see how long it is! 

Edited November 17, 2017 by PhineasGage
extra thoughts

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

This is my first real post on the forums. Hopefully I can make my thoughts coherent.

I think what bothered me most about the "resolution" to this triangle was not so much the choice Shallan makes - but that she makes a choice at all. She makes two choices at the end of OB, choices that she treats as if they were very important and necessary, but I strongly feel that they were choices that she didn't need to make.

The first choice, obviously, is between Kaladin and Adolin. While I have long been a Shalladin shipper myself, the reason I disagree with her choice is not because I think Adolin is the wrong choice, exactly. I think he was a choice she was clearly not ready to make.

 

The reason I think this is because of the other choice she makes - she chooses the persona of "Shallan." Not the actual Shallan that she is, but the persona she built that Adolin "knows" and "recognizes." The real Shallan, as is made clear throughout the book by bother her inner monologue and her conversations with Wit, is all three personas. She knows this too, yet at the end, she chooses, instead, to commit wholly to the persona of "Shallan" rather than do the work of examining the feelings, needs and roles of all three of her selves. It seemed like she arbitrarily choose "Shalllan" because that's who she was the moment Adolin squeezed her hand. It's possible that Adolin did actually recognize that persona, but to me it felt almost as if it was coincidence - like she was a spinning roulette wheel, and he simply stopped her. It felt like she clung to that. 

 

Almost immediately afterwards, fully 2/3 of her selves were set on Kaladin, for wildly different reasons. I feel like she really needed to take the time to examine that further. Those are the real Shallan's feelings, she just pretends that they belong to Veil and Radiant. She was absolutely correct to walk away from them, I think. Starting something with Kaladin at that point would have been terrible if she was only 66% sure of it, and still fractured. However, she turned away not because she wasn't ready to make that choice, but because the other 33% of her was set on Adolin. 

 

Shallan fails to consider a third option - herself. Adolin, the gentleman that he is, can plainly see that she's conflicted and fractured. He gives her an out - which he phrases clumsily and which rightfully pisses her off. Adolin, too, frames this choice as binary - Adolin or Kaladin. Instead of taking this as an opportunity to be alone with her selves and stitch them back together, she instead pushes forward and chooses Adolin. Honestly, her whole speech at that moment really read to me like she was convincing herself. I'm also a little disappointed in Adolin that he gives in and allows this choice, but I can't blame him too much.

 

It's clear, in the final chapters, that this choice didn't actually resolve anything for her. In fact, it seems to have worsened her condition. No longer are her personas merely faces she wears, now that are distinct individuals that she has conversations with. The fact that Adolin is apparently drinking buddies with Veil seems to mean that not only is Adolin aware of this, but that he is enabling it. He seems to be a rock she has anchored the "Shallan" persona to. Nauseatingly sappy as the "Without you, I fade" line reads - I think she was being literal. Without him to ground the "Shallan" persona, she would be forced to confront her  fractured selves.

 

I also think it's very telling that Shallan gave no more Truths in this book. These choices are going to bite her hard in the future.

[PhineasGage]

Welcome @Elsvette Mintyfresh. I'm pretty new too

I agree with basically everything you said in your post. I recently re-read the section where Shallan and Wit tell the story of the girl who looked up together and Wit says something very important;

"Accept the pain but don't accept that you deserve it" (chapter 82, italics in book)

I feel this has a ring of a sensible truth for Shallan to tell herself but she hasn't managed it yet. Later, she goes on to fight with the Heart of the Revel and fails to drive it away. While she is communicating with it she hears Wit's voice and he says:

"You're all of them, Shallan. Why must you be only one emotion? One set of sensations? One role? One life?" (Chapter 84)

Shallan tells him that her personas rule her and although that is a truth it isnt something that leads her to greater self-awareness so wont be a truth that will help her progress. A better one would be to accept that all her personas are her and that she became a radiant because she broke but that she didn't deserve to be broken. There is likely a better way to phrase it. I'm pretty sure we won;t see Shallan progress in book 4 - she is the furthest on the path already I believe and she needs so much work done before she can accept it. It is a common feeling amongst victims of abuse that they did something to deserve the damage done to them and it can take years (indeed many never manage it) to get over that and accept that they were in fact blameless all along.

I

[Naerin]

I see a lot of people arguing that the romantic arc is not really finished, based on some aspects of the wedding scene or based on inconsistencies in Shallan's logic/reactions. I get where you all are coming from, believe me. But I would point out that to my knowledge there has never been a failed marriage depicted in any BS work (between main characters at least; I may have missed something among side characters). Marriage is always used as the closure of the romantic arc. Elantris literally culminates in a wedding, as a way of also showing that there will be a brighter future for the kingdom. Warbreaker starts with an arranged marriage, but the one romantic arc is solely contained within that marriage, and the character arc of the two sisters is resolved by the end as Siri takes on the role of queen for real. The Vin/Elend/Zane...thing, is resolved after Vin kills crazy-not-crazy dude and then immediately marries Elend (like, IIRC, still wounded from the fight), in order to make extra sure that readers understand that killing that corner of the triangle means that she is choosing Elend. The Bands of Morning culminates in a wedding to show that Wax has resolved his issues and is ready to love again. There are "false-start" weddings in two books (and arguably Warbreaker as well) where an initial ceremony is interrupted, but this only serves to parallel the later, real wedding that goes smoothly and resolves the romantic arc. 

Let's face it, BS uses weddings to close-out romantic arcs. If he decides to do something different with Shallan/Adolin it will literally be a first. I would be thrilled if this happened, because as I've mentioned I don't like how this arc was handled, but I'd be surprised.  

Edited November 17, 2017 by Naerin

[sylblade]

17 minutes ago, Naerin said:

I see a lot of people arguing that the romantic arc is not really finished, based on some aspects of the wedding scene or based on inconsistencies in Shallan's logic/reactions. I get where you all are coming from, believe me. But I would point out that to my knowledge there has never been a failed marriage depicted in any BS work (between main characters at least; I may have missed something among side characters). Marriage is always used as the closure of the romantic arc. Elantris literally culminates in a wedding, as a way of also showing that there will be a brighter future for the kingdom. Warbreaker starts with an arranged marriage, but the one romantic arc is solely contained within that marriage, and the character arc of the two sisters is resolved by the end as Siri takes on the role of queen for real. The Vin/Elend/Zane...thing, is resolved after Vin kills crazy-not-crazy dude and then immediately marries Elend (like, IIRC, still wounded from the fight), in order to make extra sure that readers understand that killing that corner of the triangle means that she is choosing Elend. The Bands of Morning culminates in a wedding to show that Wax has resolved his issues and is ready to love again. There are "false-start" weddings in two books (and arguably Warbreaker as well) where an initial ceremony is interrupted, but this only serves to parallel the later, real wedding that goes smoothly and resolves the romantic arc. 

Let's face it, BS uses weddings to close-out romantic arcs. If he decides to do something different with Shallan/Adolin it will literally be a first. I would be thrilled if this happened, because as I've mentioned I don't like how this arc was handled, but I'd be surprised.  

God I hope you are wrong.Such a stupid way to end a love triangle.But I think you are right.I do hope Adolin dies though.

Edited November 17, 2017 by sylblade

[Naerin]

@sylblade I really hope I'm wrong too! 
 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Naerin said:

Let's face it, BS uses weddings to close-out romantic arcs. If he decides to do something different with Shallan/Adolin it will literally be a first. I would be thrilled if this happened, because as I've mentioned I don't like how this arc was handled, but I'd be surprised.  

Oh, I haven't forgot this. But, on the other hand, all of these marriages really felt like the romantic arc was closed or matured. Adolin / Shallan does not feel like that for reasons already supplied in plenty.

Still, I think it is wise to not get your hopes up.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

47 minutes ago, Naerin said:

Let's face it, BS uses weddings to close-out romantic arcs. If he decides to do something different with Shallan/Adolin it will literally be a first. I would be thrilled if this happened, because as I've mentioned I don't like how this arc was handled, but I'd be surprised.  

On this note, as well, I recall that Brandon said somewhere that the KSA triangle was meant to mirror something else - which I read as the Gavilar-Navani-Dalinar triangle. Sure, Navani and Gavilar failed due to death (which could be Adolin's fate, but I hope not), but, obviously, that triangle had a different resolution many decades later. 

What this really makes me wonder, though, what was Navani's logic for marrying Gavilar? I mean, aside from Dalinar's apparently scary intensity. Does it mirror Shallan's in any way?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Elsvette Mintyfresh
clarification

[RShara]

On 11/15/2017 at 11:38 PM, Harbour said:

As i posted before, here is the intention on BS part to show the different reactions of Shallan on both Adolin and Kaladin.

 

Some assumptions:

1) Adolin comforts her in the minutes of weakness and make her feel protected and let to forget about the problems.

2) Kaladin rises her up, makes firm and strong, and inspires her.

Basically with Adolin Shallan can be an ostrich to hide her head under the ground to ignore the inner and outer problems. With Kaladin she can be the woman who fight the inner and outer problems.

Its funny because she can live keeping the "Journey before Destination" Oath choosing any of the two options. She can hide from problems and do her stuff as LW towards the victory with Adolin or fight them on her way with Kaladin.

Still i remember:

In my opinion, feelings Adolin get out of Shallan wont make her better if to put her in the context of Dalinar's words.

Kaladin can make Shallan so much better than she is.

The way I see it is this:  In order to deal with her issues, Shallan has to feel safe, and secure, and confident in *herself* rather than using Veil or Radiant.  Adolin is willing to accept her flaws and she knows he will be there and be supportive of her as she tries to work through her issues. He can also recognize her, Shallan, rather than Veil/Radiant.

Kaladin would likely be horrified or angry, possibly even repudiate her if he knew some of the things she has done, and might need to do in the future.  Heck, has he even noticed that she has three personalities?  Also, Kaladin has a LOT of his own issues to work through, himself.  The two of them together would be realllllly messy.

Edited November 17, 2017 by RShara
More thoughts

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, RShara said:

In order to deal with her issues, Shallan has to feel safe, and secure, and confident in *herself* rather than using Veil or Radiant.  Adolin is willing to accept her flaws and she knows he will be there and be supportive of her as she tries to work through her issues. He can also recognize her, Shallan, rather than Veil/Radiant.

Everything indicates, that she isn't even trying as she seems to use/be Veil in front of Adolin. Being supportive means to also challenge and not be blindly accepting. Instead Adolin chooses to befriend Veil, but interacting with her as a different person, and thus confirms Shallan's dissociation from her Veil side.

 

17 minutes ago, RShara said:

Kaladin would likely be horrified or angry, possibly even repudiate her if he knew some of the things she has done, and might need to do in the future.  Heck, has he even noticed that she has three personalities?  Also, Kaladin has a LOT of his own issues to work through, himself.  The two of them together would be realllllly messy.

We don't know, because their angle wasn't even really explored, which is something many of us here criticise.

Unfair, considering Adolin and Shallan spend way more time together. Which is, once again, being criticised. Adolin only noticed it right at the end, while looking deeply into her eyes. Did Kaladin have a chance to do that?

Fair enough, could be, but also could result in them supporting each other, because they understand better.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

I also have to say, I felt a little cheated. Didn't Brandon promise Shalladin "moments"? I felt like they never had any. I was pretty excited when they were planning to fly to Thaylena together. I was interested to see how they'd interact while alone again, especially as it was after her finally knowing the truth about Heleran. And then it was just sort of skipped?

 

Throughout OB they barely interacted with each other onscreen. Their entire relationship, such as it was, was played out entirely within their separate heads.

[Amended]

Jumping in here. Personally, I think Shallan needs BOTH Adolin and Kaladin in her life.

The thought in my head is stress and rest: Kaladin, being Kaladin, pushes her to grow, improve, be better. That’s fine, but when it goes too far for too long, Shallan shatters. Her coping mechanism for excessive stress is to create a persona that isn’t stressed over the issue, and in OB it started to spiral out of control to the point of being detrimental.

Adolin, on the other hand, allows here to rest and recover. He’s a plainer, simpler man, with gifts of empathy and understanding. Shallan doesn’t stress around him. There’s room to recover mental and emotional strength, letting her recover to face and handle new stress. 

This leaves the choice between them somewhat less dramatic. Kaladin does have chemistry with her, but he’s also going to stress her, which is hard on a relationship/family. Adolin doesn’t solve the problems, but he also doesn’t make them worse. His situation is also pretty good for a relationship/family. This makes Adolin the better romantic partner to settle down with.

Now, because Adolin and Kaladin didn’t try to fight over Shallan and make moves against each other, the trio still works. Shallan can still be friends with Kaladin and get the same results, while settling down and establishing roots with Adolin. 

My only issue with this train of thought is that I’m not certain how Veil views adultry. Marriage may not have ended the triangle...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Amended said:

Adolin doesn’t solve the problems, but he also doesn’t make them worse.

I beg to differ. Since she has chosen to marry Adolin, she has been reverting into old patterns of pushing away unwanted thoughts and confrontations/hiding behind Veil to handle them, further dissociating herself from the other parts of her personality, that she split off.

 

[RShara]

14 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I beg to differ. Since she has chosen to marry Adolin, she has been reverting into old patterns of pushing away unwanted thoughts and confrontations/hiding behind Veil to handle them, further dissociating herself from the other parts of her personality, that she split off.

 

I think that has more to do with the pressure of the Ghostbloods' threat, the Unmade stalking the halls, the Everstorm, the need for Radiants, and the expectations of Jasnah, than because of Adolin's presence.

 

Like, everybody has these high expectations of her that she's not sure she can accomplish, so she creates these personas that can.  Adolin, however, thinks that she, herself, can handle these things, helping her to re-assimilate them.

Edited November 17, 2017 by RShara

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think that has more to do with the pressure of the Ghostbloods' threat, the Unmade stalking the halls, the Everstorm, the need for Radiants, and the expectations of Jasnah, than because of Adolin's presence.

To be clear, I mean since she made the decision at the end of Oathbringer.

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

Adolin, however, thinks that she, herself, can handle these things, helping her to re-assimilate them.

There is no evidence for that. He actually does the opposite by treating Veil as a different person and becoming buddies with her.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC

[Elsvette Mintyfresh]

8 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think that has more to do with the pressure of the Ghostbloods' threat, the Unmade stalking the halls, the Everstorm, the need for Radiants, and the expectations of Jasnah, than because of Adolin's presence.

But she was fracturing herself even further before her brothers arrived. She was checking out her dress in the mirror, chit-chatting with Veil and Radiant as though they were her bridesmaids. This was something she had never done before. They had always been different faces that she wore; they didn't exist independently. Now they hang out, sip wine, and talk about boys.

EDIT - I misread you as saying the letter from Mraize was at fault for her worsening, but I see you actually meant the Ghostbloods in general.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Elsvette Mintyfresh
my poor reading comprehension

[RShara]

I'm just reminded of the movie Sybil.  Where, at the end, as a sign of her enormous progress, she was able to meet and interact with her other personalities, and give herself/them comfort and acceptance.

[RShara]

Staying Shallan, while being able to draw on Veil and Radiant's abilities and knowledge (even vocally or with mental words), I think is actually a sign of progress. 

 

It also reminds me of Brandon's other series, Legion.  He seems to have researched Dissociative Personality Disorder quite extensively.

Edited November 17, 2017 by RShara

[Amended]

@SLNC Yup. That’s default, classic Shallan right there. She puts on different faces and becomes someone she isn’t so that “that person” can handle it. That’s what I feel is roughly the baseline for her. There are clear flaws with that method of coping, and requires growth from her to overcome. She’s stabilized into 3 main personas, and she’s still settling into her recovery from the downward spiral.

What it is NOT is the downward spiral she spent a good chunk of OB in where if a persona couldn’t handle a issue in a certain way Shallan would create a new persona or intermix them, leading to an excess that was leading to her to not having a clue of any unifying features or what made her her. No new persona was made to handle this particular situation.

Also, typing on phone is slow. Sorry if I’m not caught up on the 3-4 comments since.

My guess on growth would be Shallan understanding why she picks a persona for a particular reason, and using the decision making to help point out the underlying bedrock character traits that she has overall.

Not getting better, not getting worse, but a chance to catch her breath and recover so she can seek elsewhere growth. I feel my comments still apply.

also slow typing is slow.