[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Guest]

The thing with Adolin is, that I probably would like him in real life, but in a literary sense, he just makes for a boring character.

I was really beginning to warm up to him, but then I saw the fandom again, squealing over everything he did and immediately was reminded again why I find him boring. He is just too slick (pun not intended) and perfect.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[Prelude]

I don’t dislike Andolin as a character as he can be unwittingly adorable and has a heart of gold. I did think we were heading to a darker Andolin with the ending of Wor. Maybe still? Anyone have any thoughts how he will respond if Dalinar ( does the right thing) and comes clean with his boys how their mom died?  Surely surely this won’t just be glossed over as the murder of Sadeas. 

[Ailvara]

I think it's kind of intentional. Adolin is surrounded by supermen, so he needs to be the very best version of a normal guy to keep up. And there are people I know IRL that are quite close to his sort of perfection (at least as much as I know them - and we don't know Adolin any better), so I don't mind it in fiction either.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

I would like to preface this by saying I do not mean this to be directed as an attack at anyone, whether on or off this thread. Rather, my problem is with human nature. It is apparently hard-wired into our brains to ignore facts that do not support our opinions. Our natural inclination seems to be to ignore anyone who disagrees with us. We seem to disregard logical argument in favour of ostriching. There is blessedly little of that in this thread, but some is still there. On both sides. I'm feeling a bit of burnout. You can only relive the painful nuances of OSDD treatment falling on deaf ears before it becomes painful. And this is so true on Reddit and Tumblr. This thread isn't really about Shalladin or Shadolin. It's about whether we think Shallan has progressed or regressed. The majority of this thread seems to be in the regression camp. As a result, not all of the people in the progression camp are necessarily jumping to explain WHY they feel she has progressed. This is opposite on places like reddit. I don't know the purpose of this rant, and I apologize for it, but can we not just discuss things civilly? I mean that not for this thread, but for the people on reddit and tumblr who attempt to gut whoever isn't on their side with a wooden spoon, the people who state their opinions as fact and don't even consider arguments for the opposition. At the risk of sounding like the most cliched idiot on the Shard, Can't we all just get along?

Again, I apoligize for this rant. It's been a bad day, and I don't like it when people are mean to each other, or refuse to listen. If I have crossed any lines with this post, please let me know and I will delete it immediately. Goodnight, sweet dreams. 

[Guest]

Yeah, I got carried away with ranting against Adolin. I'm sorry, but I'm already constantly repressing expressing my opinion, because I don't want to offend anyone, that it sometimes just... bubbles out.

And I really need some shut-eye. Good night.

[DeployParachute]

21 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I don't know, I guess it's just a matter of taste, but for me is coming to the realisation that he makes me feel good. Sometimes there is no need for a deeper meaning.

Well, this at least is very honest, and I can respect that.  Perhaps that is also part of his appeal, his lack of flaws just makes people feel good while reading, and that's not something to sneer at.  His value to the narrative is not found in what he does to the plot, or what kind of arc his character travels upon, but is simply to make the unfolding of the story more enjoyable to readers by being...well, who he is.  I can still find it a bit irksome that everything works out for him, but at the same time recognize that the story would be lessened with his absence from it.

[mariapapadia]

5 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I would like to preface this by saying I do not mean this to be directed as an attack at anyone, whether on or off this thread. Rather, my problem is with human nature. It is apparently hard-wired into our brains to ignore facts that do not support our opinions. Our natural inclination seems to be to ignore anyone who disagrees with us. We seem to disregard logical argument in favour of ostriching. There is blessedly little of that in this thread, but some is still there. On both sides. I'm feeling a bit of burnout. You can only relive the painful nuances of OSDD treatment falling on deaf ears before it becomes painful. And this is so true on Reddit and Tumblr. This thread isn't really about Shalladin or Shadolin. It's about whether we think Shallan has progressed or regressed. The majority of this thread seems to be in the regression camp. As a result, not all of the people in the progression camp are necessarily jumping to explain WHY they feel she has progressed. This is opposite on places like reddit. I don't know the purpose of this rant, and I apologize for it, but can we not just discuss things civilly? I mean that not for this thread, but for the people on reddit and tumblr who attempt to gut whoever isn't on their side with a wooden spoon, the people who state their opinions as fact and don't even consider arguments for the opposition. At the risk of sounding like the most cliched idiot on the Shard, Can't we all just get along?

Again, I apoligize for this rant. It's been a bad day, and I don't like it when people are mean to each other, or refuse to listen. If I have crossed any lines with this post, please let me know and I will delete it immediately. Goodnight, sweet dreams. 

Well.. to be completly honest, I do agree with the majority of the people is this thread, but I couldn't help but notice that whenever someone expressed a different opinion than the general consensuss, we kind of tended to jump on that certain person(to be fair, myself included). That being said, I don't think is nothing wrong with asking for people to provide arguments for their claims, since all this has been a long debate, but as you said it's normal for people who are satisfied with this plot to go where others will be more simpathetic with them, as it's normal for you,me and the majority to enjoy this more than other platforms. So far, I think this thread has been pretty civilized. A more tense response here and there, but I think we can all agree that we are rational, grown up people and there is no need for pettiness. And your post wasn't offensive in any way

[Walin]

I haven’t been following this thread very much, but any accusation throwing seemed to be pretty passive (-aggressive?). As in “Hey you know, that’s a completely false interpretation of that passage.” Rather than, “You didn’t even read what you just quoted. I can’t trust shipping threads anymore.”

Though given that the Shard is always that calm-ish, it has the same effect or worse than on reddit, where angermongering and trolls are expected.

 To me personally though, I think SLNC was expressing a strong opinion in an unharsh way; I’m referring to his post at the top of this page, since I haven’t read any more than about 6 pages tops on this thread and can’t say for sure about the other 33 unless I read them. There have been some far more flamey posts that haven’t antagonized me, but I’m not the same as anybody.

Okay, to throw in my two cents to bring the thread back to KaladShallAdol—in/an/in: I think Shallan is probably best off alone for the gap between Oathbringer and Book Four. She’s way too unstable to commit to a relationship, and both Kaladin and Adolin aren’t good for her except platonically, imo. Once she stabilizes her personalities and maybe even speaks the Fifth Truth, then she might get one.

[GoddessIMHO]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

Yeah, the only explanation I can think of is that Adolin's perfection as an individual is the reason why so many have a preference for him. He is the idealized version of what an attractive male partner should be. 

He is devastatingly handsome, compassionate, friendly, funny, charming, empathetic, understanding, and honorable. He is also an excellent fighter, can stand up for others, is a protector, a provider, sound military tactician, and heir to a kingdom to boot. What's not to like?

Every man wants to be him, and every woman wants to be with him.  Readers are no exception to this appeal, and they can do so without any pesky character flaws to get in the way. 

I really thought I was going to get more interesting development with him, more flaws to this character that would make him more interesting and less a personification of the perfect individual. He had two this book, that I pretty much boiled down to

1. Everyone else is getting super powers and I'm not, how am I going to deal with this?

2. I just murdered someone in cold blood, and I don't feel bad about it. How am I going to tell anyone? 

Neither of these I felt was resolved in a satisfying way. His resolution for these potential issues and avenues for growth were essentially boiled down to "don't worry about it, it all worked out, guy, no consequences, you get to keep being awesome, and everyone still loves you."

I just don't find that appealing, or relatable. But to each their own.

We LOVES our precious.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

To be fair I do think Adolin is a great character and is more than your typical pretty boy. And there were plenty of people pointing out how he is more than just ordinary. My problem comes when some feel the need to victimize him and see him as the underdog, while he's clearly not. 

I didn't mean that query as at all an attack on the Adolin character (though I can see why the Disney prince bit could be taken negatively), but more I don't understand the, um, intensity of the Adolin fanbase.  I read this WoB (from reddit I believe) before OB came out where an Adolin fan was berating Brandon over the lack of Adolin in the book outline (that excel spreadsheet thing), and Brandon's first response was along the lines of, he's been a secondary character with limited viewpoints to this point and you seem to like him very much anyway, so why don't you see how this goes.  The Adolin fan then started saying how they would be incredibly disappointed if Adolin didn't get more screen time and let down by the book, etc., etc., and Brandon's response was (because where else can you go), well, not everyone can be happy.  I've read a lot of WoB's, and I've never seen that level of intensity about any of the other characters.  (I don't see that level of intensity about anyone but Adolin on this forum too.  I think part of the reason this thread isn't actually going to pieces is because people are disappointed, but still rational about their disappointment.  I can't imagine the response it it was the other way around!)  Anyway, long way of saying that my question wasn't to knock Adolin, but just addressing an long-standing puzzlement of mine.  (My first substantive post on this forum was about my confusion for the hatred of Shalladin, and my number one thought about that was that Adolin was by far the more popular character than Kaladin.  Apparently multiple polls disagree with that, but you wouldn't know it by a general read!)

28 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Perhaps that is also part of his appeal, his lack of flaws just makes people feel good while reading, and that's not something to sneer at.  His value to the narrative is not found in what he does to the plot, or what kind of arc his character travels upon, but is simply to make the unfolding of the story more enjoyable to readers by being...well, who he is.  I can still find it a bit irksome that everything works out for him, but at the same time recognize that the story would be lessened with his absence from it.

I think this a good analysis - he definitely makes me feel this way.  His supporting Kaladin in Shadesmar and his realizing Renarin could fight are two of my favorite moments in OB.  He definitely does make me feel good.  Sometimes, it is good to have an uncomplicated character so it's not SO angsty.  His lack of angst is probably part of his popularity (but, see above for my  on the intensity of that popularity.)

36 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I would like to preface this by saying I do not mean this to be directed as an attack at anyone, whether on or off this thread. Rather, my problem is with human nature. It is apparently hard-wired into our brains to ignore facts that do not support our opinions. Our natural inclination seems to be to ignore anyone who disagrees with us. We seem to disregard logical argument in favour of ostriching. There is blessedly little of that in this thread, but some is still there. On both sides. I'm feeling a bit of burnout. You can only relive the painful nuances of OSDD treatment falling on deaf ears before it becomes painful. And this is so true on Reddit and Tumblr. This thread isn't really about Shalladin or Shadolin. It's about whether we think Shallan has progressed or regressed. The majority of this thread seems to be in the regression camp. As a result, not all of the people in the progression camp are necessarily jumping to explain WHY they feel she has progressed. This is opposite on places like reddit. I don't know the purpose of this rant, and I apologize for it, but can we not just discuss things civilly? I mean that not for this thread, but for the people on reddit and tumblr who attempt to gut whoever isn't on their side with a wooden spoon, the people who state their opinions as fact and don't even consider arguments for the opposition. At the risk of sounding like the most cliched idiot on the Shard, Can't we all just get along?

Again, I apoligize for this rant. It's been a bad day, and I don't like it when people are mean to each other, or refuse to listen. If I have crossed any lines with this post, please let me know and I will delete it immediately. Goodnight, sweet dreams. 

No line crossed, and I totally get where you're coming from.  I really enjoy when people like @Stormlightning are willing to come on and explain their position.  (And thank you for that!)  I think many people don't really care about the romance, and they see this topic as solely a romance thread, rather than what I bolded - about the state of Shallan.  I also think there is (at least here) a sense of being "in" the community or "out", and I notice that posters with thousands of posts seem to shoot down the ideas of newer posters with one line answers that don't address the original post.  I definitely get a feeling of, I've been here longer and so I know better.  But I don't think this is unique about any community, and probably definitely all fan communities where many of the mega-fans see these as "their" books and Sanderson as "their" author.  Anyways, not to excuse anyone's behavior, but there a lot of (fascinating!) fandom dynamics at play that make the atmosphere more hostile.  And I don't even look on reddit and tumblr, lol (mainly because I don't know how to work them.)

25 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Well.. to be completly honest, I do agree with the majority of the people is this thread, but I couldn't help but notice that whenever someone expressed a different opinion than the general consensuss, we kind of tended to jump on that certain person(to be fair, myself included). That being said, I don't think is nothing wrong with asking for people to provide arguments for their claims, since all this has been a long debate, but as you said it's normal for people who are satisfied with this plot to go where others will be more simpathetic with them, as it's normal for you,me and the majority to enjoy this more than other platforms. So far, I think this thread has been pretty civilized. A more tense response here and there, but I think we can all agree that we are rational, grown up people and there is no need for pettiness. And your post wasn't offensive in any way

This!  You are able to express things so well, I almost always agree with how you express things even if I'm not always agreeing with your underlying point!

[Starla]

Regarding whether the “Shallan” we've seen so far in the first three books is the real Shallan, I came across this quote in my reread near the end of Part 1, when Shallan is fighting Re-Shephir:

Quote

Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck. She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

I remember when I read this for the first time, I cheered out loud that Shallan’s fierce inner warrior was coming out. She growled. I looked forward to seeing more of this as the book progressed. Alas, we didn’t get more of it. Perhaps Veil and/or Radiant embody some of these raw grittier aspects of Shallan’s nature, but I don’t think we saw it this close to the surface again before the end. Maybe this is part of why I feel a little disappointed in her progress in this book... I really want to see more of the Shallan that is not so nice and sweet and clever, and can send an Unmade fleeing in terror. 

@Stormlightning I haven’t had much time to post the last couple of days, but I wanted to thank you for responding to my questions a few pages back about whether Shallan was ready for marriage, and how she was doing at the end of the book. I don’t agree with all of your points, but I like getting different perspectives on how people interpret the text. I hope you continue to post, it’s nice to have a variety of view points. 

As a random side note, I am really happy to finally know where @SLNC avatar comes from. That has been driving me nuts. How could I forget that movie? Johnny Depp might rival Adolin for perfection. 

[mariapapadia]

33 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I didn't mean that query as at all an attack on the Adolin character (though I can see why the Disney prince bit could be taken negatively), but more I don't understand the, um, intensity of the Adolin fanbase.  I read this WoB (from reddit I believe) before OB came out where an Adolin fan was berating Brandon over the lack of Adolin in the book outline (that excel spreadsheet thing), and Brandon's first response was along the lines of, he's been a secondary character with limited viewpoints to this point and you seem to like him very much anyway, so why don't you see how this goes.  The Adolin fan then started saying how they would be incredibly disappointed if Adolin didn't get more screen time and let down by the book, etc., etc., and Brandon's response was (because where else can you go), well, not everyone can be happy.  I've read a lot of WoB's, and I've never seen that level of intensity about any of the other characters.  (I don't see that level of intensity about anyone but Adolin on this forum too.  I think part of the reason this thread isn't actually going to pieces is because people are disappointed, but still rational about their disappointment.  I can't imagine the response it it was the other way around!)  Anyway, long way of saying that my question wasn't to knock Adolin, but just addressing an long-standing puzzlement of mine.  (My first substantive post on this forum was about my confusion for the hatred of Shalladin, and my number one thought about that was that Adolin was by far the more popular character than Kaladin.  Apparently multiple polls disagree with that, but you wouldn't know it by a general read!)

Well to be honest that's exactly the kind of thing that put me off this character for a while after I joined the 17Shard. And once I started to see that happening I stopped following any kind of Adolin related threads or theories and my enjoyment of him came back while re-reading WoK and WoR. I don't fall in the idolising Adolin camp and I don't think he's God's gift on Roshar, so I get a bit tired of those threads/points praising him to incredible extents. Though through some of those I noticed some things about him that I missed first. As I said, for me he's mostly making me feel good and I don't feel the need of looking for a deeper meaning or simbolism. Also I completly dissagree with people harassing an author, despite how much they love a certain character. 

EDIT: haha! I actually remember that thread and your post. I guess as relatively new sharders we don't get how much others had to fight for him over the years. Probably in 3-4 years, when the 4th book is released and new people will come, others won't understand out anticipation for seeing Shallan in a worse state than she was before and we'll have to pull out this thread from 17 shard's basement. 

33 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

This!  You are able to express things so well, I almost always agree with how you express things even if I'm not always agreeing with your underlying point!

Haha ! Thank you, I am trying not to let this go to my head  I am mostly on the same page (haha, see what I did there? )  with the points you've made both on this thread and others (Especially the Jasnah one )

Edited November 28, 2017 by mariapapadia

[GoddessIMHO]

Here is one of the places where we learn more about the relationship. I was rereading and found the sentence where Shallan says she has to tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods. It's where she and Dalinar are making a map and has her set all the parts conquered by Odium in gold. I can't figure out how to cut and paste from the Kindle cloud reader. She says it would be a relief to have someone she could talk to about it.

She supports Adolin in not wanting to be king. Adolin keeps looking back at her as he argues it with Dalinar. He is using HER for support. It is not one sided.

And Adolin is scandalizing the Alethi with PDA.

[kaellok]

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I really enjoy when people like @Stormlightning are willing to come on and explain their position.  (And thank you for that!)  I think many people don't really care about the romance, and they see this topic as solely a romance thread, rather than what I bolded - about the state of Shallan. 

Also @FuzzyWordsmith

I've been looking at this thread every now and then, but haven't voiced my opinions because of a few different reasons:

1. The conversation moves fast, with lots of active updates.  Why am I going to drag the conversation back to something that was active 3 days ago, and 9 days ago, and 2 weeks ago, but is on something completely different right now?

2. There are a lot of people that are anti-Shallan on this thread.  They have different reasons for it, whether based on the writing, or the romance, or just not liking her as a person, or what have you.  How they feel is fine.  But I fought this fight in WoR to get people to have a better understanding of what was occurring with Shallan, and I just don't feel like fighting it again, certainly not when the feeling is as entrenched as it seems to be at this point in this thread.

3. The most active posters have generally the same opinion, with only disagreements on relatively small things.  I have not read the entirety of the thread, so maybe I am getting that wrong.  There are entire pages that I didn't even glance at.  From what I can recall, though, the people still actively posting in this thread are by and large the ones that have been throughout, and there hasn't been any major change in thought throughout.  Nobody is going to change their mind.  No sudden understanding will occur to make them look at things in a different light. 

4.  People probably really do see this as primarily a romance thread because that's what the title HEAVILY implies.

5.  Looking at how heavily upvoted many posts are makes it harder to make counter-arguments, especially weeks after the fact.

In case it wasn't clear, I'm not faulting anybody for anything at all--y'all are doing nothing at all wrong.  I'm just explaining why I have been reluctant to post in this thread, and since I'm insanely self-centered, I assume others not posting or not posting much in this thread are doing so for similar reasons. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Here is one of the places where we learn more about the relationship. I was rereading and found the sentence where Shallan says she has to tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods. It's where she and Dalinar are making a map and has her set all the parts conquered by Odium in gold. I can't figure out how to cut and paste from the Kindle cloud reader. She says it would be a relief to have someone she could talk to about it.

She supports Adolin in not wanting to be king. Adolin keeps looking back at her as he argues it with Dalinar. He is using HER for support. It is not one sided.

And Adolin is scandalizing the Alethi with PDA.

And yet, she's pushing the responsibility off to Veil.

And you could make a case for Shallan just being terrified to become queen. I think, if she wanted to it would have looked differently and she'd probably have been not as supportive. And I don't really get a feeling of pride from Shallan, which would be appropriate when Adolin finally speaks out against Dalinar... just relief. Shallan even is the one who considers Jasnah.

Edited November 28, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

@kaellok great points!  This definitely ventures off the topic, but I'm so intrigued by fandom dynamics    I was just saying to a friend of mine that I'm sure many people have written sociology theses on fandoms which I need to search out.  A couple comments:

1 hour ago, kaellok said:

2. There are a lot of people that are anti-Shallan on this thread.  They have different reasons for it, whether based on the writing, or the romance, or just not liking her as a person, or what have you.  How they feel is fine.  But I fought this fight in WoR to get people to have a better understanding of what was occurring with Shallan, and I just don't feel like fighting it again, certainly not when the feeling is as entrenched as it seems to be at this point in this thread.

This intrigues me, because I see myself (and this thread in general) as pro-Shallan.  What makes you see it as anti-Shallan?  I think (maybe) I know what you're getting at, but I'd rather not put words in your mouth.  I wasn't around to hear your WoR Shallan arguments, so I'd love to hear them here.  (Or PM me if you don't want to add that to the wider discussion.)

1 hour ago, kaellok said:

4.  People probably really do see this as primarily a romance thread because that's what the title HEAVILY implies.

This is a really good point.  I'm probably different than your typical fantasy fan, as this is the first "high" fantasy series I've really invested in (and Sanderson the first high fantasy author), mainly because what gets me is the characters and not the magic.  I'm also a romance fan.  So (like I know some have felt) part of the reason I started contributing to the thread is to help me work through why I felt so disappointed.  So it did start (for me) as a "didn't like the romance" thing (not who was chosen but how), and though discussion, I realized I didn't like the romance because I didn't like what the romance implied about Shallan's character development.  So anyways, my feelings on this tie into your anti-Shallan point (I think), so again very curious on your point of view there!

Btw, I think a big reason there seems to be a cohesive viewpoint is because if you're happy about the outcome or don't care too much one way or another, you're not going to have the impetus to contribute.  (Like me with the Maya thread - obviously quite popular, but I'm happy with spren revival or non-spren revival, so I don't have strong feelings one way or another.)  Obviously this does lead to entrenchment on viewpoint (the other way that happens is being the lone warrior on the other side of the debate), which seems to me, for better or for worse, one of the primary outcomes of fandoms in the internet age.

[maxal]

I can't believe how condescending and sickening this thread has become: this idiotic assumption there is an "Adolin cult" merely because a bunch of people have liked talking about his character for the past four years is plain insane, ridiculous and quite frankly sickening. Just as the accusation of how the Mayalaran thread, the ONE thread among how MANY (for who dares to actually bother to count before making baseless accusations?) is awful because "oh tragedy" it talks about Adolin reviving his Blade!

Do not wonder why everyone is this thread is within perfect agreement, everyone who disagrees is not interested into barging in because they will be faced with judgmental condescending posts of how the few readers loving Adolin are destroying the fandom, ruining other posters appreciation of the series because they can't stand people not agreeing with them.

Also, attacking this poor poster on Reddit who was disappointed by Brandon not giving Adolin something resembling like a story arc, according to the plan he posted, is just lame. A lot of people have expressed disagreement to Brandon or have pestered him to write more of this or that, but I don't see anyone rounding on them, but the one person who actually asked about Adolin is getting trashed? This is beyond lame. Stop attacking people who aren't there to defend themselves.

It is quite simple, some of us really like Adolin, like some other people really like Kaladin, like this whole thread really loves the Kaladin/Shallan's pairing: it is everyone's prerogative to get out of these books what they want to get out of them and to talk about their topic of interests. I however NEVER read people start to accuse the Kaladin/Shallan pairing for destroying was several thought was an adorable story nor do I see people barge in other thread trashing on this one because it does not express an opinion they like.

Like Adolin, hate Adolin, I don't personally care, but stop accusing the "Adolin cult" and stop saying that's because he is a "Sacred Cow" and stop trashing the few people who've actually liked talking about this character. Ignore those posts if they make you hate the books so much, but stop judging those people just because you either disagree or don't understand. This is terribly condescending.

I'm done with this thread. Three pages of condescending posts made against the readers who've loved Adolin is just too sick for me. And the mention of the Mayalaran thread. ONE thread. And all of this ruckus.

[Guest]

Case in point, why I'm most of the time trying to shut up about expressing my opinion on Adolin and his fandom.

Bye.

[Chaos]

I'm so disappointed people can't be respectful to others. Oh well, guess I'll lock this topic. 

Seriously, come on guys. 

[Chaos]

Okay, we're reopening this topic. Is everyone chilled out now? No? Well, if you don't want to be chill, then just don't respond in the thread.

We're not having any condescension towards people who like Adolin, or towards people who dislike Adolin, or anything other characters. I am well aware people have very strong opinions, but I want everyone to look at their posts and say, "am I coming on too strong?" If so, go and revise it. Opinions are not fact. You don't get to attack anyone. If you must attack something, attack opinions, but do so with grace and humility.

If you see someone being a jerk, report the post and go have a drink of your beverage of choice. Do not go and say "I definitely want to have the last word!" 

No more attacking. I will be upset if any such things continue, and I will likely just hand out short-term suspensions for people where relevant. 

Let's take everything from a 9/10 and de-escalate everything to a 1/10. 

[Guest]

Well then. Looks like we have our refuge back.

[PhineasGage]

@Chaos Thank you very much for this and I second your suggestion to keep it civil. 

I am not sure whether to address the points made before - I don't want to bring the arguments back up. I was thinking that perhaps anyone who wants to comment on this again, use any relevant and safe comments from your last post and start again? That way we can continue the debate without allowing emotions to raise their ugly heads?

I do want to point this out in case no-one else has seen it: courtesy of @Dreamstorm

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Shallan's personas. How would they be viewed in the Spiritual Realm? Would they be an individual? Or would they be seen as being slightly separate?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

They would be seen as an individual

So to me this is really important. It means that OSDD is still the best fit for Shallan - and that her choice of Adolin may not be ideal for her at this time. If Adolin stops treating her alts as individuals it could still work, but that seems unlikely to happen if she seems to stabilise in the timeskip.

I foresee the following scenario as a possible means to achieve this whilst not losing sight of how OSDD actually works.

• The "Shallan" persona becomes dominant around Adolin because he anchors it and undermines the other aspects. The others likely appear when he is not around to engage "Shallan". Eg, at night when he is asleep or if he goes away.
•  Shallan believes she is better - maybe not 100% but on the way. She switches persona less and less over time, or only switches by choice.
• Shallan's situation is (almost) entirely stress free (EDIT: during the timeskip). She is able to fill the "perfect wife" role well and the stresses of it are negligible in comparison with the horrors she has in her past. Perhaps "Shallan" becomes an ANP and has pushed the emotional stuff into a 4th EP. Or perhaps she remains an EP and just continues to suppress her own memories. 
• Adolin/Shallan are happy. There may be minor disagreements but chances are Shallan yields to Adolin on all conflicts. He probably has no problem with this. Its not negative, but that seems to be how Evi would have presented her relationship with Dalinar to her children so Adolin would expect it. 
• Perhaps towards the end of SA4, Shallan has to deal with something that requires a stress test of Shallan's identity. I think she fractures again and loses control. In so doing she realises that she has only papererd over her cracks rather than actually fix the problem. It happens very suddenly and likely mirrors Kaladin's "failure" to say his 4th ideal.
• She will continue to struggle with this into book 5, but is gradually starting to accept the truth.
• She'll be forced to confront the truth that her marriage to Adolin is essentially a sham because she hasn't fully embraced it.  I suspect Wit will be involved on some level. She will have to work to meld her personalities into 1 identity and thus accept the truth. She will then have a period of getting to know herself again as a single core personality. Once this is complete and she is "standing up" then she can make a real choice regarding her future.

Ok so there are loads of options about how it might work - and timing in particular is very fluid I think. I have a suspicion that Shallan won't hit level 5 until book 5 because she still has to accept her 4th truth properly and get to her 5th truth; That's going to take a lot of work.

Thoughts?

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by PhineasGage
clarification

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

• The "Shallan" persona becomes dominant around Adolin because he anchors it and undermines the other aspects. The others likely appear when he is not around to engage "Shallan". Eg, at night when he is asleep or if he goes away.
•  Shallan believes she is better - maybe not 100% but on the way. She switches persona less and less over time, or only switches by choice.
• Shallan's situation is (almost) entirely stress free. She is able to fill the "perfect wife" role well and the stresses of it are negligible in comparison with the horrors she has in her past. Perhaps "Shallan" becomes an ANP and has pushed the emotional stuff into a 4th EP. Or perhaps she remains an EP and just continues to suppress her own memories. 

Agreed, but I don't think, that Shallan's situation will be stress-free. She'll have to still be a KR and the "Shallan" persona is not equipped for that. That is the biggest thing I see, how her marriage, or more how she has chosen to approach it, and being a KR will interfere.

26 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Adolin/Shallan are happy. There may be minor disagreements but chances are Shallan yields to Adolin on all conflicts. He probably has no problem with this. Its not negative, but that seems to be how Evi would have presented her relationship with Dalinar to her children so Adolin would expect it. 

I'm expecting, that Adolin will yield to Shallan in all conflicts. Nothing has convinced me so far, that Adolin has a spine when it comes to interpersonal conflicts. And he is handling Shallan with silk gloves, like an expensive piece of china.

26 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

• Perhaps towards the end of SA4, Shallan has to deal with something that requires a stress test of Shallan's identity. I think she fractures again and loses control. In so doing she realises that she has only papererd over her cracks rather than actually fix the problem. It happens very suddenly and likely mirrors Kaladin's "failure" to say his 4th ideal.
• She will continue to struggle with this into book 5, but is gradually starting to accept the truth.
• She'll be forced to confront the truth that her marriage to Adolin is essentially a sham because she hasn't fully embraced it.  I suspect Wit will be involved on some level. She will have to work to meld her personalities into 1 identity and thus accept the truth. She will then have a period of getting to know herself again as a single core personality. Once this is complete and she is "standing up" then she can make a real choice regarding her future.

I think, that the course of the events makes sense, but that the timeline is a bit too long. Book 5 is supposed to be the end of this particular story arc, so I'd expect for Shallan to reach level 5 by the end of SA4.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Agreed, but I don't think, that Shallan's situation will be stress-free. She'll have to still be a KR and the "Shallan" persona is not equipped for that. That is the biggest thing I see, how her marriage, or more how she has chosen to approach it, and being a KR will interfere.

I meant during the time-skip specifically - sorry - I'll add that in - my point was that we have an in-world year where from our point of view very little of importance will happen. I don't see us opening up SA4 to a divorce. 

 

13 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'm expecting, that Adolin will yield to Shallan in all conflicts. Nothing has convinced me so far, that Adolin has a spine when it comes to interpersonal conflicts. And he is handling Shallan with silk gloves, like an expensive piece of china.

That could work - I am envisaging a scenario where "perfect wife Shallan" almost avoids conflict in the marriage. Adolin can have a spine (he confronts Dalinar in tWoK after all) but I don't think either of them would even realise this was happening until it starts getting under their skins that they are always capitulating. I thought Shallan might do this because Veil will resent it and that would cause intrasystem conflict. But if Adolin is getting annoyed, it could eventually lead to a serious clash between them.

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I think, that the course of the events makes sense, but that the timeline is a bit too long. Book 5 is supposed to be the end of this particular story arc, so I'd expect for Shallan to reach level 5 by the end of SA4.

That could work too - I am just worried that having too many level 5s might make the humans a bit OP and that makes it less interesting a read. As long as the level 5s aren't OP it is ok, but given how OP Kaladin and Shallan already are, it is something that worries me. You can only continue to have the other side level up with them before it actually starts becoming a bit ridiculous. As long as there is sufficient struggle in Shallan's arc (I see her as being sort of level 3 and level 4 simultaneously because I don't think she's fully accepted her 4th truth) then it doesn't matter how long it takes.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I meant during the time-skip specifically - sorry - I'll add that in - my point was that we have an in-world year where from our point of view very little of importance will happen. I don't see us opening up SA4 to a divorce. 

Oh, yes. I agree, maybe there will be some tension built up, but nothing too final yet.

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

That could work - I am envisaging a scenario where "perfect wife Shallan" almost avoids conflict in the marriage. Adolin can have a spine (he confronts Dalinar in tWoK after all) but I don't think either of them would even realise this was happening until it starts getting under their skins that they are always capitulating. I thought Shallan might do this because Veil will resent it and that would cause intrasystem conflict. But if Adolin is getting annoyed, it could eventually lead to a serious clash between them.

Yes, I think, that the conflict avoidance will be a big thing. I think, that Adolin might get annoyed, but say nothing, because, like I said, I think, that he'll handle Shallan with silk gloves. I know, that Adolin can have a spine, but he also is a bit of a yes man, which is why I think, that he won't willingly engage in conflict with Shallan. Well, and there is also his fear of loss. He might surprise me though.

I really like the bolded idea though. I hope Veil will be rebellous.

10 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

As long as the level 5s aren't OP it is ok, but given how OP Kaladin and Shallan already are, it is something that worries me.

Hm. I felt like, that there were pretty damnation overwhelmed by the Battle at TC. The Fused and the Unmade are no piece of cake. Especially if Ba-Ado-Mishram is back.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC