[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[GoddessIMHO]

I personally find this idea terrible (I love Shallan and Adolin) together: but we don't see a wedding, we only see a wedding about to happen.They could be attacked by Voidbringers, the Ghostbloods could pull Shallan at the last minute, any number of disasters could happen, this could be the prelude in the next book

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

On the Shadolin side, I feel like there is SO MUCH hate for Shalladin. 

Because of the Adolin cult. Sorry, but there isn't another word for it. He is literally flawless and worshipped.

Edited November 27, 2017 by SLNC

[analyticaposteriori]

4 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I personally find this idea terrible (I love Shallan and Adolin) together: but we don't see a wedding, we only see a wedding about to happen.They could be attacked by Voidbringers, the Ghostbloods could pull Shallan at the last minute, any number of disasters could happen, this could be the prelude in the next book

I think Dalinar's last POV says Adolin's already married. I guess some horizontal tango's already going on by the time he pens down the title of Oathbringer.

Edited November 27, 2017 by analyticaposteriori

[mariapapadia]

8 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I personally find this idea terrible (I love Shallan and Adolin) together: but we don't see a wedding, we only see a wedding about to happen.They could be attacked by Voidbringers, the Ghostbloods could pull Shallan at the last minute, any number of disasters could happen, this could be the prelude in the next book

I am pretty sure the wedding happened, we also have that ketek at the end of the book, written by Jasnah on the "ocasion of her ward Shallan Davar wedding celebration"( I am surprised no one picked that apart) . Which makes it even more frustrating that we were deprived of yet another moment, after all the skipped reunions, reaction to Elhokar's death and Szeth appearance. 

 

On another note...This brings me to another point.. I started thinking since yesterday that if there is a one year break we'll again be deprived of other moments : Shallan telling Adolin about the Ghostbloods, Shallan telling her brothers about her journey, Adolin and Renarin finding out about what Dalinar did and these are just a few. I have no idea how we'll see these, as I doubt none of them will come up in the span of one year. Anyway, this is beside the point of this thread and I am sorry, but let's be honest at this point this has reached some other topics that I don't feel that bad 

Edited November 27, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mariapapadia said:

This brings me to another point.. I started thinking since yesterday that if there is a one year break we'll again be deprived of other moments : Shallan telling Adolin about the Ghostbloods, Shallan telling her brothers about her journey, Adolin and Renarin finding out about what Dalinar did and these are just a few. I have no idea how we'll see these, as I doubt none of them will come up in the span of one year. Anyway, this is beside the point of this thread and I am sorry, but let's be honest at this point this has reached some other topics that I don't feel that bad 

No it is alright. I don't get the timeskip either, when so many juicy threads are still hanging in the air, but Brandon knows what he does I guess.

[Ailvara]

10 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I will be incredibly impressed if this happens.  On the Shalladin side, there's just so much foreshadowing, that if what we have now is all that comes of the love triangle, I can't imagine this crew being satisfied.  On the Shadolin side, I feel like there is SO MUCH hate for Shalladin.  (I actually only got involved on these forums in the first place after I read the books for the first time this summer, and in googling around I didn't understand the animosity towards the Kaladin/Shallan pairing, which seemed to be set up in WoR as the end game.  Still don't get it the extreme hatred.)  So yeah, I'm finding it hard to think only a few readers will be disappointed.  But I haven't been involved in other "shipping wars" to see how they resolve themselves....

1

I don't think the hatred is just about the ship itself, it's the nature of shipping overall. No matter what the story or pairing, people start with some preference and then they radicalize as the discussions get more heated. 

27 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

 

While I do agree that the "braided roses method" is textbook Shalladin and the "make the characters go on a trip/quest together" also supports that clain and Brandon himself says it's fun to read about character that "rub eachother the wrong way", there is also the part of him saying how real life relationship works + doing mundane stuff together which implies Shallan and Adolin. 

As I have said before, I think a strong case can be made for Shallan and Adolin as well and.. yeah some of us will read either of the pairs with more or less chemistry. I liked them both for diffent reasons that have been rehearsed by others through the thread. 

That being said, I don't think the Kaladin and Shallan angle will be explored more and personally, even though it's fun and they have chemistry, I am a bit wary of the mental gymnastics that would require and the drama it would create. If at one point I thought that Kaladin and Adolin could still be friends despite Shallan choosing one or the other, Shallan going back to Kaladin after she married Adolin, would be wrong for multiple reasons and I think that would really break the friendship between Kaladin and Adolin, which I don't want to see. Plus if for some reason Shallan discovers that Kaladin is her true love ( beyond how cheesy that will be), I think it would be more realistic for her to realise that she blew her chance when she rushed into something else. At this point I only pray that this is not the end of Shallan's mental problems and her recovery will be realistic and won't have Adolin as a main plotpoint. I don't feel like there is more room for Kaladin there and no point, since Shallan is still not well. 

I totally get where you're coming from. Shadolin has its upsides and I am really glad we got to explore it more, I just don't see it as endgame. Basically, both Adolin and Kaladin are quite good for her, my main issue is that I feel Shalladin was foreshadowed and promised (and also a bit better still). I also don't want any antagonism between Kaladin and Adolin, but I'm still a believer in this, Brandon made her choose one guy without making anyone hate each anyone, which is more than some people expected from this before OB, so I'm willing to trust him on this some further.

Sidenote: Do you remember the times when this thread was chasing the overall book reactions?

[GoddessIMHO]

6 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

I think Dalinar's last POV says Adolin's already married. I guess some horizontal tango's already going on by the time he pens down the title of Oathbringer.

Ah, you're right. I just went back to look. Dalinar is just back from the wedding feast.

[analyticaposteriori]

I wouldn't be too surprised if Brandon, no matter how well he has plotted Stormlight out at this point, ran into the similar timeskip problems many other authors did when actually writing the book (cough GRRM).

[mariapapadia]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

No it is alright. I don't get the timeskip either, when so many juicy threads are still hanging in the air, but Brandon knows what he does I guess.

This reminded me of how dissapointed I was that .. Mistborn spoiler

Spoiler

We didn't get to see Elend coming to terms with his powers and learning them with Vin, instead we skipped to him being in full control and a badass. Which was nice, but yeah.. I would've like to see some of those scenes. 

 

[Ailvara]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

No it is alright. I don't get the timeskip either, when so many juicy threads are still hanging in the air, but Brandon knows what he does I guess.

I hope this just means, that they won't deal with any of this stuff and it will be all on the verge of exploding. Because if it all magically untangles off-page, I'll be so mad. And ever since I read this on Kindle, I can't throw the book on the wall.

Do I remember correctly, that there is a proof-readers q&a tomorrow? Maybe we could brainstorm a bit on how to sneakily ask questions in order to get to whatever secret stuff they know?

[DeployParachute]

5 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Do I remember correctly, that there is a proof-readers q&a tomorrow? Maybe we could brainstorm a bit on how to sneakily ask questions in order to get to whatever secret stuff they know?

Someone should ask them if there was originally a scene where Kaladin and Shallan are flying to Thaylen City, and if it was removed due to reasons...

...I just don't understand why the second person to go had to be Shallan?  I thought for sure we would get that scene with Shallan working so hard to "escape" Urithuru for a few days.  If it wasn't Brandon's intention for them to have an opportunity to interact alone, then why did she go at all?  To me, it makes no sense unless he had originally outlined it there...

Edited November 27, 2017 by DeployParachute

[Dreamstorm]

5 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I don't think the hatred is just about the ship itself, it's the nature of shipping overall. No matter what the story or pairing, people start with some preference and then they radicalize as the discussions get more heated. 

Sidetrack (and @PhineasGage when back may have an opinion), but do these "shipping wars" tend to end up with some people hating the book because their ship doesn't win or does everyone tend to come together in the end?  Or maybe it's actually only a small fraction of readers that actually care so it become a non-issue. 

[Ailvara]

2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Sidetrack (and @PhineasGage when back may have an opinion), but do these "shipping wars" tend to end up with some people hating the book because their ship doesn't win or does everyone tend to come together in the end?  Or maybe it's actually only a small fraction of readers that actually care so it become a non-issue. 

1

I am no expert, but that reminded me of my friend, who usually doesn't care about shipping at all, but she still sometimes recalls how the Sakura/Sasuke pairing mostly ruined Naruto for her after all those years of reading. And yeah, it was also something about how it eventually ruined character development more than about the ship itself.

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

(I don't know which jobs are still available on the ship, but I'm quite good with knots)

I just promoted myself from boatswain to first mate, so you're welcome to have my role. Beware of the "cat," she seems much too smart, and also talks. I don't trust her, but she seems to know where the ship is headed.

I don't really want to start listing the crew of the Good Ship Shalladin, but I totally do I'm a terrible liar ALL ABOARD!

[Valand]

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I also didn't get other foreshadowing elements like situations where Shallan changes clothes in the streets of Kharbranth, wonders if "anyone" had ever seen her naked then "shivered in the wind's kiss". Why put that in given how heavily Kaladin is associated with the wind? Why even make the scene vaguely sexual in nature? What about the way Kaladin's climb into the hollow in the chasm is written which also has a vaguely sexual feel to it. He may not write romantic arcs that well, but then it should be easy to avoid those kinds of descriptions surely?

 

That reminds me -ship on which Shallan travels in The Way of Kings was named "Wind's Pleasure". 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

41 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Because of the Adolin cult. Sorry, but there isn't another word for it. He is literally flawless and worshipped.

I kinda agree. The Mayalaran thread especially, but it seems like Adolin has become something of a Sacred Cow for some people.

 

7 minutes ago, Rainier said:

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

(I don't know which jobs are still available on the ship, but I'm quite good with knots)

I just promoted myself from boatswain to first mate, so you're welcome to have my role. Beware of the "cat," she seems much too smart, and also talks. I don't trust her, but she seems to know where the ship is headed.

I don't really want to start listing the crew of the Good Ship Shalladin, but I totally do I'm a terrible liar ALL ABOARD!

I never got consensus that I get to be the Captain's Chicken. If anyone wants that position, they gotta fight me for it. 

[mariapapadia]

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Sidetrack (and @PhineasGage when back may have an opinion), but do these "shipping wars" tend to end up with some people hating the book because their ship doesn't win or does everyone tend to come together in the end?  Or maybe it's actually only a small fraction of readers that actually care so it become a non-issue. 

This reminds me of something I said a while ago. IMO the shipping wars become cancer because of the fandon getting to hot headed and irrational. But so far this has been pretty civiliezed and people have made good arguments on both sides. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that this revoled mostly around Shallan's mental health issues and  we're not all 12 year old girls  No offence to any 12 year olds out there. But yeah, I don't know about other platforms, I've seen a lot of people saying tumblr and reddit are over the moon with how things pay out. 

[DeployParachute]

55 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Because of the Adolin cult. Sorry, but there isn't another word for it. He is literally flawless and worshipped.

Yeah, the only explanation I can think of is that Adolin's perfection as an individual is the reason why so many have a preference for him. He is the idealized version of what an attractive male partner should be. 

He is devastatingly handsome, compassionate, friendly, funny, charming, empathetic, understanding, and honorable. He is also an excellent fighter, can stand up for others, is a protector, a provider, sound military tactician, and heir to a kingdom to boot. What's not to like?

Every man wants to be him, and every woman wants to be with him.  Readers are no exception to this appeal, and they can do so without any pesky character flaws to get in the way. 

I really thought I was going to get more interesting development with him, more flaws to this character that would make him more interesting and less a personification of the perfect individual. He had two this book, that I pretty much boiled down to

1. Everyone else is getting super powers and I'm not, how am I going to deal with this?

2. I just murdered someone in cold blood, and I don't feel bad about it. How am I going to tell anyone? 

Neither of these I felt was resolved in a satisfying way. His resolution for these potential issues and avenues for growth were essentially boiled down to "don't worry about it, it all worked out, guy, no consequences, you get to keep being awesome, and everyone still loves you."

I just don't find that appealing, or relatable. But to each their own.

Edited November 27, 2017 by DeployParachute

[Dreamstorm]

15 minutes ago, Valand said:

That reminds me -ship on which Shallan travels in The Way of Kings was named "Wind's Pleasure".

I'm on a WoK re-read, and this stuff is everywhere.  Subtle, but almost so prevalent is makes you feel like us readers are being trolled.

8 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I kinda agree. The Mayalaran thread especially, but it seems like Adolin has become something of a Sacred Cow for some people.

I wonder why this is...  Not to take this a place we don't want to go... but I wonder if it's mostly women who are like that.  When I told my non-forum friend about this Adolin obsession (and sent her screenshots of some choice posts), her reaction was along the lines of, I didn't realize SA was so popular with teenage girls.  (Nothing against teenage girls!  But as Brandon said in that video, they do have intense sometimes disproportionate passions )  It seems like major wish fulfillment going on... like, I wish I had a man like Adolin <heart> <heart> <heart>  I don't want to cheapen Adolin, I think he's a great character, but he is also a well-written Disney prince.  But I guess there is a reason the princess always wants the Disney prince!

ETA @mariapapadia and @DeployParachute already were addressing this while I was typing!

Edited November 27, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[mariapapadia]

15 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I kinda agree. The Mayalaran thread especially, but it seems like Adolin has become something of a Sacred Cow for some people.

 

7 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I wonder why this is...  Not to take this a place we don't want to go... but I wonder if it's mostly women who are like that.  When I told my non-forum friend about this Adolin obsession (and sent her screenshots of some choice posts), her reaction was along the lines of, I didn't realize SA was so popular with teenage girls.  (Nothing against teenage girls!  But as Brandon said in that video, they do have intense sometimes disproportionate passions )  It seems like major wish fulfillment going on... like, I wish I had a man like Adolin <heart> <heart> <heart>  I don't want to cheapen Adolin, I think he's a great character, but he is also a well-written Disney prince.  But I guess there is a reason the princess always wants the Disney prince!

 

12 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Yeah, the only explanation I can think of is that Adolin's perfection as an individual is the reason why so many have a preference for him. He is the idealized version of what an attractive male partner should be. 

He is devastatingly handsome, compassionate, friendly, funny, charming, empathetic, understanding, and honorable. He is also an excellent fighter, can stand up for others, is a protector, a provider, sound military tactician, and heir to a kingdom to boot. What's not to like?

Every man wants to be him, and every woman wants to be with him.  Readers are no reception to this appeal, and they can do so without any pesky character flaws to get in the way. 

I really thought I was going to get more interesting development with him, more flaws to this character that would make him more interesting and less a personification of the perfect individual. He had two this book, that I pretty much boiled down to

1. Everyone else is getting super powers and I'm not, how am I going to deal with this?

2. I just murdered someone in cold blood, and I don't feel bad about it. How am I going to tell anyone? 

Neither of these I felt was resolved in a satisfying way. His resolution for these potential issues and avenues for growth were essentially boiled down to "don't worry about it, it all worked out, guy, no consequences, you get to keep being awesome, and everyone still loves you."

I just don't find that appealing, or relatable. But to each their own.

To be fair I do think Adolin is a great character and is more than your typical pretty boy. And there were plenty of people pointing out how he is more than just ordinary. My problem comes when some feel the need to victimize him and see him as the underdog, while he's clearly not. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

To be fair I do think Adolin is a great character and is more than your typical pretty boy. And there were plenty of people pointing out how he is more than just ordinary. My problem comes when some feel the need to victimize him and see him as the underdog, while he's clearly not. 

Yes, he is extraordinary in his flawlessness. The one thing he had was his temper, which of course had no consequences for him and his problem with women, but of course the One(tm) comes along and fixes that.

[DeployParachute]

12 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

To be fair I do think Adolin is a great character and is more than your typical pretty boy. And there were plenty of people pointing out how he is more than just ordinary. My problem comes when some feel the need to victimize him and see him as the underdog, while he's clearly not. 

But that's the thing, even a "typical pretty boy" in the literary or media sense has something wrong:  They're a jerk, or they are not intelligent, or they are secretly the villain.  Whatever the case may be, usually the perceived "perfection" by us as the media consumer is revealed to be masking some other issues.  And yet, here is Adolin, who is obviously more than a typical pretty boy, and that is my exact problem with him.

Quote

Yes, he is extraordinary in his flawlessness. The one thing he had was his temper, which of course had no consequences for him and his problem with women, but of course the One(tm) comes along and fixes that.

^this

Sorry, not trying to dump all over Adolin as a "person" in the comere, but I am dumping on the character of him from a literary sense.  If I was living in the world of Roshar, of course I would like him as a person, who wouldn't (and in fact everyone does).  But from a reader perspective, a literary sense, perhaps you @mariapapadia can clarify for me why you find him to be a great character to read?

Edited November 27, 2017 by DeployParachute

[Stormlightning]

Quote

Hey, thanks for writing this  @Stormlightning I appreciate it. I'd like to clarify a few things if you don't mind.

1) You mentioned that you think Adolin "knows enough" of Shallan and I can somewhat get behind that in terms of her past actions , but I find it difficult to reconcile with the fact that that he doesn't see Veil and Radiant as being part of the "real" Shallan. I got the impression you think those are part of her core personality, in which case how does this work with him knowing enough? "Shallan" is a dominant alt, but Veil is at least as big a fragment. Merging them back together might have interesting ramifications - a bit like resonanance between two surges makes the handling of those surges different. I got the impression that Adolin doesn't feel anything romantic for Veil - how would you say this might be handled going forward if Veil and Shallan merge? If he doesn't find Veil attractive, even when wearing Shallan's face, then wouldn't that make it awkward?

2) I agree that Adolin is a stable person. He is probably the least broken person we've seen in any of the books. It doesnt automatically make him good for Shallan of course, but she could do worse in terms of his genuine desire to help her.

3) I actually think that Shallan and Kaladin having opposite ways of coping are what would make it both interesting and beneficial for them both. They could both do with learning a bit of each other's thought processes so that they get a wider variety of coping mechanisms each. Adolin currently seems to be allowing Shallan to hide imo. This is the opposite of what she allegedly wanted at the end of WoR. 

4) Not to be mean, but there weren't any complicated ideas for Adolin to have to keep up with. He knew who the killer was in the Sadeas investigation so he gets no props for spotting the copy-cat killer thing. Were there any academic subjects brought up that he contributed to? He wasn't even in the driving seat for Elhokar's plans to get an army to storm the palace. There is nothing wrong with being average, but lets not pretend he is clever. Jasnah is clever, Shallan is clever, Renarin is clever, Kaladin is clever. Adolin, according to all the in-book evidence we have, is ordinary.

So I do see your point regarding the idea that the relationship was already working, but I think it smacks a little too much of the idea of "Love the one you're with". Shallan is young enough that she doesn't need to rush things and can take her time making sure she's the right choice. I do think that Adolin forced her into it a little bit because he tried to break it off, so she felt she had to convince him not to. Then they ended up getting married moments later (well thats what it felt like). I just feel that if you are seriously contemplating another person, then its not ok to go and marry the person you are with. You shouldn't have to convince yourself that they are right.

All very good points, @PhineasGage. 

1) I guess I see it like when Wit told Shallan that she can change her personality without changing who she actually is. She got in this weird frame of mind where she thought that in order to act a certain way, she had to go be that person in every way. Ultimately, I think that Veil and Radiant need to stop existing and allow Shallan to be all of them. To use her Veil-like skills while still being Shallan, and changing the way she thinks about things (when pertinent) without becoming Radiant. In the face of that, I think Adolin can still be attracted to Shallan when she's indulging in a Veil moment at the bar. Maybe I have a totally different opinion that the men do on this, but I don't think I have a problem with treating your significant other like a drinking buddy once in a while when you are out drinking. Probably...

2) It doesn't automatically make him good for Shallan, but...well, I think he's good for Shallan.

3) I don't feel like Adolin is letting her hide. He's latching onto her true self and stopping her from switching personas. While Shallan discovers who she really is, that seems important. Toward the end of the book--and all through it, really--she was throwing Shallan out the window in favor of the other two because they have distinctive roles and purposes, and she couldn't find that for her true self. He is really good at buoying her up and telling her she is valued and giving her reasons, because he really does see value in the normal her. Kal does too, but I think he's less good at dispensing his appreciation for others and I can just see him getting into one of his moods and her going into one of her stupors...and they can't pull each other out. Then he lashes out with thoughtless commentary and she avoids it by switching identities...yeah. Bad. If Kal and Shallan were to end up together instead, it would be more important that they figure these things out then get hitched. I think Shallan and Adolin are a bit more of a capable pairing in terms of figuring it out while together.

4) Hey now! He was thoughtful enough to bring her books! I actually wasn't referring to this sort of thing, haha, more to the witty banter. He always came up with something to say in response, even if it was "What...Shallan!" This is where his social competence and humility come in handy. I think other people could be rather intimidated by her sense of humor and just have nothing to say.

Yeah, you have a point. She's young and there's no reason not to consider looking around. But I don't think he forced her into it; she was already pretty attached to the idea in my mind. I don't think she was ever seriously contemplating Kaladin, more just infatuated with a certain side of him. I don't think she ever actually thought, "Hey, I could marry that guy." It's kinda like that girl that's happily in a relationship but adores Matt Damon. Not that I'm comparing him in any way to Kal:P

[Darvys]

Come on guys, let's not turn this into an Adolin (+fandom) bashing contest. Try to rein in the condescension.

[mariapapadia]

13 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yes, he is extraordinary in his flawlessness. The one thing he had was his temper, which of course had no consequences for him and his problem with women, but of course the One(tm) comes along and fixes that.

Yes, this annoys me mostly because one of my biggest pet peeves is the existence of "the one". I feel like people get so hung up on that and the idea that "THE ONE" will swipe you of your feet, fireworks will spark, music will play and unicorns will jump, that is nothing of those things happens then it's not "THE ONE". Ughhh! It annoyed me that neither of his problems (murder and commitment issues) had any payout in this book. 

10 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

But that's the thing, even a "typical pretty boy" in the literary or media sense has something wrong:  They're a jerk, or they are not intelligent, or they are secretly the villain.  Whatever the case may be, usually the perceived "perfection" by us as the media consumer is revealed to be masking some other issues.  And yet, here is Adolin, who is obviously more than a typical pretty boy, and that is my exact problem with him.

^this

You know, in the beginning while reading WoK I really tried to find things to pick Adolin apart, a reason for me dislikeing him, but as the story progressed I had to admit, that I like him being the kind one and even if he's a pretty boy, he doesn't have one of the typical bad traits. I don't know, I guess it's just a matter of taste, but for me is coming to the realisation that he makes me feel good. Sometimes there is no need for a deeper meaning. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by mariapapadia