[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

27 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I'm very skeptical about the chances of Adolin/Shallan marriage to survive or to survive in that form through the 7 books left given that it itself was based on confusing details and probably wrong foundation. 

I agree completely. I went back and re-read some of the interactions between Adolin and Shallan after she chose him. They are so mushy and frankly nauseating! Now they havent actually known each other that long so I suppose it is reasonable - but Shallan describes it as love and honestly (imo) it isn't. It is lust/passion/crush type feelings. They are perfectly normal and natural for the type of relationship they are having but it isnt love (yet). This actually echoes what Kaladin says about Shallan. Of course he wasn't in love with her - he hadn't known her long enough. Love doesn't work like that.

Anyway to give some quotes about what I'm getting at (from chapter 122 - I'm on Kindle so don't have page numbers, sorry)
 

Quote

 

"Adolin wrapped his arms around Shallan from behind. "It looks beautiful."

"You look beautiful," she replied.

"You are beautiful."

"Only because you're here. Without you, I fade."

 

 Ugh, sickening. Anyway, there are other moments where she feels "giddy" and "silly". Although she does say "something had changed. Something incredible" which is at least a little heartening. But we still see a huge amount of focus on the superficial aspects. Anyway I don't blame Teshav for rolling her eyes at them.

Now I hope they grow together but given my other thoughts on the matter I am genuinely worried about it. Love takes time and understanding. As far as I know, Adolin doesn't know anything about Shallan's personal history. Does he even know her father is dead? She told Dalinar so presumably Adolin does, but it seems unlikely that she told him that she killed her dad, let alone that she also killed her mother. We don't know if she goes ahead and tells him of the Ghostbloods, though it's implied she might well have done by the time the next book comes out. That's a huge amount of personal history that I for one would like to know before I committed to someone. Hell of a wedding present otherwise....

Anyway, my point is that it is normal early in a relationship to feel the way Shallan feels, but it seems to be much more like infatuation than love. 

Psychology Today did an article on this ( https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201404/20-questions-will-tell-you-if-its-love) now obviously Psychology struggles to model human behaviour because of its complexity, and no individual fits the model perfectly anyhow because it averages human behaviours from many individuals, so assume some flaws in this, but its the best model I could find that was easy to interpret for a lay-person.

That being said, I (of course) tried to score Shallan using this at the end of the book based on how I interpreted how she was feeling and came up with some figures. In set 1 (infatuation) she scores somewhere in the low-mid forties. On attachment, she scores a little higher, low-mid 50s. Based on my own interpretation (and I'd be interested in knowing how others score her) I would suggest she most aligns with the group who "were not yet in a romantic relationship with the object of their desire". This suggests that she has not yet formed a full attachment to Adolin but this does not mean that she won't in the future. Attachment grows over time and is the best indicator for happiness in the long term. Higher infatuation scores are aligned with unhappiness.  Just as a comparison, I'm in a long term happy cohabiting relationship. I score only 14 on infatuation and 62 on attachment. Whilst I am regularly silly with my SO, he doesnt make me feel silly, we act in a silly manner together and feel perfectly sensible when we do it. I'm nearer Jasnah's age than Shallan's though.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Love takes time and understanding. As far as I know, Adolin doesn't know anything about Shallan's personal history. Does he even know her father is dead? She told Dalinar so presumably Adolin does, but it seems unlikely that she told him that she killed her dad, let alone that she also killed her mother. We don't know if she goes ahead and tells him of the Ghostbloods, though it's implied she might well have done by the time the next book comes out. That's a huge amount of personal history that I for one would like to know before I committed to someone. Hell of a wedding present otherwise....

First of all, I agree with finding their cheesy dialogue straight out of a bad YA romance novel nauseating,,, I sincerely hope, that they soon grow out of that, because I don't know, if I can take a whole Stormlight book of that. But personal opinion.

Now regarding what I quoted. This is so important. Adolin doesn't know rust about her. He doesn't understand her. He doesn't understand why she has her problems. And he doesn't even challenge her on them. Hell, he's becoming drinking buddies with Veil. Veil. This suggests that Shallan keeps becoming Veil and Adolin is completely okay with it? Does Shallan have any inclination to even tell him about her past? Well, considering, that she plans to leave the Ghostblood explanation to Veil (hence the bold part), I'd be very surprised, if she did. The important thing in the implication is, that she wants Veil to tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods. She herself has not even spent a thought on that, quite the opposite she pushes it away again, when it comes up.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Hell, he's becoming drinking buddies with Veil. Veil.

Exactly this, its straight up wrong. Its great to be friends with your SO as well as more, but you shouldn't be more friends than anything else. Most importantly, Adolin "wouldn't" be intimate with her - like he could tell when Veil was in play and not only did he recognise that she wasn't interested in him, but he presumably wasn't interested in her either. Great, what a fantastic basis for a relationship. And Veil has no specific need to tell Adolin beyond Shallan wanting her to. When she is Veil, perhaps she won't tell him after all, although I suspect she will - it builds conflict in the relationship for one thing.

This is where I feel that Shallan's eventual progression as a Radiant has to be with resuming a full identity rather than using somewhat 2D personas that fit each aspect of her life. Most people don't have the option of choosing what situations to face so they just have to cope. Shallan avoids unpleasant situations by retreating to a persona so she doesnt have to deal with things, at some point she'll have to acknowledge this if she wants to progress to a "full" Radiant.

[sylblade]

I heard time skip between this and fourth book is 1 year.Is this true?I was hoping the marriage won't happen somehow!

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Most importantly, Adolin "wouldn't" be intimate with her - like he could tell when Veil was in play and not only did he recognise that she wasn't interested in him, but he presumably wasn't interested in her either. Great, what a fantastic basis for a relationship. And Veil has no specific need to tell Adolin beyond Shallan wanting her to.

Another thing is, that he doesn't even understand Veil.

Quote

"That's worrisome, Shallan.", [Adolin said.]

"I won't let her act on it. I promise.", [Shallan said; regarding that Veil was keen on Kaladin]

"I didn't mean that," Adolin said, "I meant... you, Shallan. Becoming other people."

Veil is not another person. Veil is a part of Shallan.

Though I agree, that Veil will probably tell him about the Ghostbloods, if Shallan tells her to.

[PhineasGage]

37 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Veil is not another person. Veil is a part of Shallan.

100% although as you say neither Shallan nor Adolin seem to recognise this. And, again as you say, he doesn't understand Veil and that means he cannot understand Shallan. Even if he did understand the individual personas perfectly I'm not sure he'd understand Shallan because he still wouldnt really understand how they fit together because he doesnt know/understand what caused them.

As a side note, its not clear to me that Adolin is definitely going Radiant. From Dalinar's flashbacks he seems to have had a pretty decent upbringing, despite his mother's death (which he presumably doesnt actually know the truth about anyway) and his father's alcoholism because he had some stability from his mum prior to her death and from his aunt and uncle. Anyway he knew his father loved him - something Renarin could not actually have been sure of, at least as a kid (which is presumably when he bonded - he's had his "epilepsy" since then anyway). This means we can't really be sure that he is "broken" indeed he is probably the only sane PoV character we get. I am more concerned that his murder of Sadeas, as a crime of passion, could be something that leads us to wonder if he's a potential for Odium? Shallan's situation could very well lead him down that route

[Harbour]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Anyway to give some quotes about what I'm getting at (from chapter 122 - I'm on Kindle so don't have page numbers, sorry)
 

Thats sounds like something directly borrowed from SW prequels (RotS is my favourite SW movie though). And we all know that BS fully aware of prequel trilogy flaws, including cheesy dialogues.

Just direct quote from RotS:

Quote

ANAKIN: You are so beautiful!
PADME: It's only because I'm so in love . . .
ANAKIN: No, it's because I'm so in love with you.
PADME: So love has blinded you?
ANAKIN: Well, that's not exactly what I meant . . .
PADME: But it's probably true!

Also, Shallan hillariously sound like that girl who told her boyfriend not to worry about "that" guy.

Quote

-Im an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one. Doesnt mean I want to pull it off the hook and go get intimate.

and follow up dialogue too.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Harbour

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Harbour said:

Thats sounds like something directly borrowed from SW prequels

Oh dear, that's not exactly encouraging, given the way Anakin ends up going...... Although given the whole Dalinar being essentially an aspect of Honour now if Adolin does go dark it also sets up a cheesy "I am you're father" moment.... *goes away to try and pretend I didn't just think that*

BS is so much better than that so he is not going to do that to us.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I am more concerned that his murder of Sadeas, as a crime of passion, could be something that leads us to wonder if he's a potential for Odium?

Adolin murdering Sadeas already helped (to be fair, he didn't know, couldn't know) Odium btw. It made the Sadeas soldiers more susceptible to the Thrill at the Battle of Thaylen City, which Odium then used to turn them.

[sylblade]

1 minute ago, PhineasGage said:

BS is so much better than that so he is not going to do that to us.

Is he though?I don't fell that after how he handled the ending of the love triangle.Remember same guy made both OG Star Wars and prequels

[PhineasGage]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It made the Sadeas soldiers more susceptible to the Thrill

I totally missed this but you are right. That is concerning - the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Not that Adolin's intentions regarding Sadeas were good, but it was at least something that was understandable though not something anyone would condone. 

 

1 minute ago, sylblade said:

Is he though?I don't fell that after how he handled the ending of the love triangle

I know what you mean but I am not prepared to dispute his skill as a writer on the basis of a storyline that is not certainly completed yet. I remember feeling off about the 2nd Mistborn book but having it work much better when I'd read the 3rd. This is the middle book of the 5 book arc. When the first 5 books are completed I'm assuming most of these character arcs will be completed (because the back 5 are going to be some time after the front 5). If the arcs of the relationships stay where they are then I'll agree with you, but Adolin has had very little evolution as a character - he maybe is less of a cad when it comes to eyeing up other women, but just because we haven't seen it as much as we did in WoR doesn't mean its gone yet. I'm assuming he'll evolve over the next 2 books as the major changes in his life are actually coming now - becoming Highprince and getting married. That means his relationships with everyone will evolve.

[sylblade]

3 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I totally missed this but you are right. That is concerning - the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Not that Adolin's intentions regarding Sadeas were good, but it was at least something that was understandable though not something anyone would condone. 

 

I know what you mean but I am not prepared to dispute his skill as a writer on the basis of a storyline that is not certainly completed yet. I remember feeling off about the 2nd Mistborn book but having it work much better when I'd read the 3rd. This is the middle book of the 5 book arc. When the first 5 books are completed I'm assuming most of these character arcs will be completed (because the back 5 are going to be some time after the front 5). If the arcs of the relationships stay where they are then I'll agree with you, but Adolin has had very little evolution as a character - he maybe is less of a cad when it comes to eyeing up other women, but just because we haven't seen it as much as we did in WoR doesn't mean its gone yet. I'm assuming he'll evolve over the next 2 books as the major changes in his life are actually coming now - becoming Highprince and getting married. That means his relationships with everyone will evolve.

The marriage felt like BS's way of saying the Love Triangle has ended.I don't think this story line is going to continue unless adolin dies which I don't think will happen.

[PhineasGage]

6 minutes ago, sylblade said:

The marriage felt like BS's way of saying the Love Triangle has ended

To be fair, that is your opinion and it may well be right. I'm honestly not convinced. He is really good at foreshadowing. 

In WoR when Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin all get in the carriage ride before going to the menagerie Wit says something to Adolin about "Here comes your almost-but-not-quite bride". This is exactly the kind of thing Sanderson puts in to foreshadow things. Indeed, it is layered because at that point, Adolin and Shallan are still in the causal but it also foreshadows the element that Adolin is only really married to a part of Shallan - he certainly doesnt seem to see Veil (as SNLC pointed out) as his wife but more of a drinking buddy.

As an additional thought - the triangle may be over but that doesnt mean there wont be relationship development.

Edited November 17, 2017 by PhineasGage
Additional thought

[sylblade]

1 minute ago, PhineasGage said:

To be fair, that is your opinion and it may well be right. I'm honestly not convinced. He is really good at foreshadowing. 

In WoR when Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin all get in the carriage ride before going to the menagerie Wit says something to Adolin about "Here comes your almost-but-not-quite bride". This is exactly the kind of thing Sanderson puts in to foreshadow things. Indeed, it is layered because at that point, Adolin and Shallan are still in the causal but it also foreshadows the element that Adolin is only really married to a part of Shallan - he certainly doesnt seem to see Veil (as SNLC pointed out) as his wife but more of a drinking buddy.

Hope so.BTW I am new to to fantasy novels and I am quite depressed about kaladin right now.How do you deal with it?

[PhineasGage]

11 minutes ago, sylblade said:

I am quite depressed about kaladin right now.How do you deal with it?

Honestly? I'm a bit Shallan-ish myself so probably not that healthily!

I felt really low at the end of OB also mostly about Kaladin but I'm slowly getting over it. My re-read has helped a bit because I can see the hope that it still has. I also look at the final scene where he is not berating himself as much as he usually would have done which is definitely a good thing.

Finally, I mentally started mentally mapping a fan-fic out where he finds someone decent, crazy but not lying-type crazy and who shares his love of healing - probably a less Lift-like edgedancer type person - still fun but not so.... well Lift (I love Lift but Kaladin needs someone who can actually be understood etc). I probably won't write it but at the end of OB I could see him starting to get to a point where he could have a sensible relationship with someone that doesnt make him go mad trying to divide himself as a protector amongst everyone he has ever loved. That helped me massively because I couldnt have done that at the end of WoR because he still had such a tendency to beat himself up for stuff he wasnt to blame for. He seems to be getting better at that and it will result in him managing to get to the 4th ideal of the WR. Kaladin really needs an equal he can talk to - not someone he feels responsible for and I can now see him managing that. Not that he definitely will find that kind of relationship, just that he now is starting to show that he could actually manage it.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

In WoR when Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin all get in the carriage ride before going to the menagerie Wit says something to Adolin about "Here comes your almost-but-not-quite bride". This is exactly the kind of thing Sanderson puts in to foreshadow things. Indeed, it is layered because at that point, Adolin and Shallan are still in the causal but it also foreshadows the element that Adolin is only really married to a part of Shallan - he certainly doesnt seem to see Veil (as SNLC pointed out) as his wife but more of a drinking buddy.

*facepalm*

Such a blatant piece of foreshadowing, that I've been referencing a few times reading the preview chapters and it, of course, gets relevant again

Words of Radiance, Chapter 34:

Quote

“But here’s the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they’re not real. We can’t let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn.” [Tyn] turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. “When a good con woman dies, it’s usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps it going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then . . .”

Yeah. Shallan finds something good (Adolin) and wants to keep it going. She lies to herself, that everything will end well.

The way I see it, by splitting parts of her personality to Veil and Radiant and further dissociating herself from them, she created a lie of Shallan (Pattern saying: "a good you"). The Shallan, who marries Adolin and becomes the loving perfect wife. The Shallan, who pushed away every other feelings, she might have for other men to Veil. The Shallan, who constantly smiles. She found something good with Adolin, a sense of false security and constant happiness, and wants to keep it and, as a result, created this lie of herself, pushing away unwanted feelings to her other personalities. And yet, those personalities are part of her and will keep trying to reemerge (qed. Veil appearing before Adolin). She tries to juggle it... And will continue to try. What will happen? We'll see.

Edited November 17, 2017 by SLNC
Elaborated my argument further.

[Info_Drone-0451]

33 minutes ago, sylblade said:

Hope so.BTW I am new to to fantasy novels and I am quite depressed about kaladin right now.How do you deal with it?

I know exactly how you feel.

My personal solution to this is to take a step back, read something else( preferably something very different), settle for the long wait until the next book where I hope things will get better for Kaladin. At the same time I keep making possible scenarios in my head (basically fan-fic that I'll never write because I'm not much of a writer at all) of how it'll play out for the best in my opinion.

First post by the way...

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by DimChatz

[Harbour]

Well, i think that triangle was solved, but BS clearly (for me at least) isn't done with Shallan-Adolin-Kaladin thing, because of how it was solved. Their basis of official wedding in a nutshell:

Quote

 

Adolin: I hardly know you but i see you crush on Kaladin. I give up on you.

Shallan: Damnation, just ignore that. I know you totally and love you. Now lets get married. 

 

Its not a healthy foundation to end that topic.

Personally i think that marriage is another challenge for Shallan (and Adolin, and Kaladin too) to get through, and the tool to make her better and more matured. Then she will either return to Adolin to finally do everything right, or she'll go to Kaladin, or she'll even prefer to be single (which is most unlikely since the humans tend to be the creatures an absolutely collective in their nature).

But from details, foreshadowing and hints i definitely think BS isn't done with Kaladin-Shallan things. He won't stop teasing them, i bet it. I can hardly imagine Adolin and Shallan staying in the same status without any changes, conflicts and stuff.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Harbour

[PhineasGage]

37 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah. Shallan finds something good (Adolin) and wants to keep it going. She lies to herself, that everything will end well.

Good catch from Tyn's lines - I'd forgotten that one. So in theory this could foreshadow Shallan's death more than anything else but obviously leads to potential upset it her relationship with Adolin. I'm going to have to read over my essay and see what else comes out of that. Then I'll have to rewrite it with the OB stuff in it. Good thing I dont have a job, or degree to finish... oh wait....

On another note with Tyn's lines, I see why you referenced it regarding the preview chapters - Shallan constantly tries to hide Veil from Adolin - and he only finds out by accident. I don't think she'd have told him otherwise. Does he even know about Radiant?

I agree with @Harbour as well regarding that the triangle element is finished. I think the classic triangle is the choice element with 2 people fighting over one person they both want. That didnt happen here anyway - Kaladin never really fought and Adolin was prepared to step away. Shallan is the one fighting - mostly with herself and that is the thing that seems likely to continue. She needs to find out who she really is before she can decide who her life partner should be. That may be Adolin after all, but until she knows who she is, how can we really be sure?

I just can't see how all the foreshadowing (arriving at Shattered Plains in same caravan, meeting outside the warcamps, the whole boots thing, understanding each other on an intellectual level, the entire chasm sequence, Shallan's thoughts on how Kaladin resembles rocks/wind etc whilst adolin is a fine sculpture - nb she chose natural history over art as her calling, let alone the more heavy handed stuff in OB) could really lead to absolutely nothing. If you cut it out, both WoR and OB probably shorten by a fifth of their current size. That means we could have had other stuff in there instead! Perhaps more Renarin or Jasnah - which would have been amazing. If it is just padding I might decide go full Odium.

[Harbour]

14 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Shallan's thoughts on how Kaladin resembles rocks/wind etc whilst adolin is a fine sculpture - nb she chose natural history over art as her calling,

Hell, that thing just hit me hard, i never noticed that before.

Its funny how Shallan found Kaladin more of a person of nature, wild and raw beauty, while Adolin is more of an artwork, and then turn everything upside down comparing Kaladin to an artwork to justify her choice. Ironic.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Harbour

[PhineasGage]

15 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Hell, that thing just hit me hard, i never noticed that before.

Did I mention that I'm obsessive?  

[Mr Horrible]

I have to disagree with the you guys who are saying this subplot isn't over, I would be extremely surprised if Shallan and Adolin were to get divorced (does it even exist on Roshar?) just going from Brandon's previous works. Now there's the possibility Adolin dies, but I personally think Shallan or Kaladin are much more likely to kick the bucket first, indeed the chances of Dalinar/Shallan/Kaladin all surviving book 5 are really low imo. 

However, that doesn't mean I can't comment on the execution again, as apparently I can't seem to stop myself. My big issue that it feels rushed, there were threads to this subplot that I was sure would be explored and they are mostly just left hanging or have a sentence dealing with them.

These include:

• Kaladin killing Helaran. This is less clear than the others as it's possible it's still an issue, however Shallan *really* didn't like Amaram when she thought he was responsible in a time when everyone aside from Kaladin respected Amaram. It was addressed in a paragraph early in OB where Shallan reminded herself that Kaladin was protecting his brightlord, however there's still a disconnect there for me as Amaram would have been defending his life as well. I don't know, it seemed resolved too quickly considering what was saw in WoR imo.
• Adolin's fickleness with women - I *really* hate the trope of a female main character being so interesting/charming/whatever that a previously womanising male character immediately changes his ways upon meeting her. This plot point felt simply abandoned, it wasn't addressed anywhere outside of in WoR when the relationship was new and Adolin would still be interested in any of his previous relationships at that point in them. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diminish Adolin's character here, just that it's a trait of his that went out the window upon meeting Shallan.
• I really hate how the deciding factor - Adolin knowing the 'real' Shallan, was a solution to a problem that was almost completely confined to this book. People theorised about Kaladin liking Veil or vice versa but that wasn't well supported at all in WoR and was a guess at what might happen. It's more annoying because prior to this book no one really contested that Kaladin had a better understanding of Shallan than Adolin did. Shallan was explicitly wearing a false persona around Adolin for almost the entirety of WoR and Kaladin saw right through it even before the chasm scene (admittedly Kaladin's distrust of all lighteyes helped with that). Heck even in OB Kaladin was the only one to work out what Shallan was doing with her safehand in Kholinar. This ties in with @Naerin's post about how the roles seem very forced.
• Kaladin's quote about not actually liking Shallan romantically just seems... Odd. We have viewpoints of him being attracted to her and Syl (his closest companion) has shipped the heck out of it for some time, but then Brandon throws in that line? It's fine for Shallan to choose Adolin even though Kaladin likes her too, I don't think you need to backtrack on that.

Admittedly yes I would have preferred to see Shallan and Kaladin, but my biggest issue is in the handling which felt extremely rushed, particularly at the end. This book introduced some great reasons why Adolin was the better choice for Shallan, but a lack of time makes some of them feel forced to me.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Mr Horrible

[Harbour]

54 minutes ago, Mr Horrible said:

Heck even in OB Kaladin was the only one to work out what Shallan was doing with her safehand in Kholinar.

Btw i like that scene. Seemed Brandon just brought it to show again that Kaladin is just smarter than Adolin (and Elhokar), not to show that he and Shallan are extremely compatible on mental level.

[Jofwu]

1 hour ago, Mr Horrible said:

a previously womanising male character immediately changes his ways upon meeting her

Adolin was never womanising. He was just flighty and noncommittal. 

[Mr Horrible]

Yeah my bad, was the wrong phrasing.

 

He was however flightly enough to go through almost every woman available in the shattered plains :P.