[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

30 minutes ago, brandondash said:

In that case let me respectfully yet vociferously disagree with the majority of voices in this thread. Shallan and Kaladin don't know each other. 

Respectfully, neither do Adolin and Shallan. How much time - even off screen have they actually spent together? It is very little - other than a few walks and chats at the beginning, we don;t see any real realtionship development until the "poop" scene, a brief interaction after a duel, the carriage ride and menagerie but then Adolin goes and lands himself in prison for a couple of weeks. All of their interactions are heavily structured because of the way Vorin society divides men and women. They don't interact in any great detail during the march into the centre of the shattered plains because Shallan is too busy researching, and it is clear Adolin doesn't know her when she gets out of the chasms because she viscerally hisses at him when he talks about protecting her. Do we see any serious improvement in their understanding of each other in OB. I do not believe so. And, neither do a great many people, even Shadolin shippers.

I am not suggesting she knows Kaladin better. I am suggesting that she's rushed into a relationship with a man she barely knows and does not really understand and, most importantly he doesn't know or understand her either. Kaladin is essentially irrelevant to this problem. Whether or not I prefer Shalladin as a concept does not matter if I think she shouldn't have chosen either of them.

30 minutes ago, brandondash said:

They have a real relationship

If we haven't seen it, then how do you know? There is no evidence of understanding. Someone claiming something in their PoV doesn't make it true - especially Shallan who has this terrible case of not knowing who she really is. That makes her the ultimate unreliable narrator in OB.

 

30 minutes ago, brandondash said:

Literally every character in the series who has met Kaladin has been greatly affected in one way or another.

True, but that also doesn't automatically mean that it isn't real. Who else, besides Shallan's brothers, knows she killed her father? She has, to my knowledge, told only one person other than Pattern and that is Kaladin. That isn't simply getting caught up in his wake. No-one else is rushing to spill their secrets to him - he has to pry them out of every one of Bridge 4, and even then some of them still are hiding things (looking at you Rock).

 

29 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Problem with that line of thinking though is that I do not see another love interest being introduced for Kaladin in the rest of the 5 book arc, if at all

I don't know that he needs one. He's had Tarah as a good, solid, stable romance that he uses as a benchmark. She seems to have pretty great so he probably has quite a high bar when it comes to getting involved with someone. He won't just go for transient things, he's looking for someone who gets him like she did.

26 minutes ago, Phalanx said:

Just because something is a "trope" doesn't mean that subverting it is automatically a good thing or good writing

This is very important. Humans also like to see patterns, even when they don't exist so we will make things fit a "trope" if we really want to see them that way.

12 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

But I haven't heard anyone arguing that Shallan should have took Adolin's "out" and ran to Kaladin and immediately started a serious relationship.  I would be just as annoyed with that ending.

I agree - after the chasm sequence it would have felt exceedingly hollow.

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

was keeping track of him (we always learned of his reports to Urithiru through Shallan.

Great call - you are absolutely right. She isn not as disinterested as she'd like us to think.

Edited November 20, 2017 by PhineasGage
Because keeping up with posts is hard.

[Harbour]

1 hour ago, AubreyWrites said:

 

then the trip to Thaylen - it's just the 2 of them- perfect  opportunity for some sort of interaction. ANY interaction. Completely skipped over. 

On that moment i felt like i smashed into the wall BS built instantly. "Here are the moment", - i thought.

Yeah, sure.

1 hour ago, AubreyWrites said:

 

Not only is much of his own character issues not dealt with (wandering eyes/ big fish little pond swap/ self styled murderer...)

Another thing i felt was completely wasted. We all wasnt that glad we saw almost zero reflection on Adolin's part about Sadeas murder. We expected he gonna blow up everything with revelation.

WHO??? could have even expected that this line will be compeltely skipped and brought only as a tool to bring Shallan and Adolin together (it was pretty boring reveal actually) and a tool to end the line itself after the reveal to Dalinar (who suddenly was completely okay with it).

And thats it! BS just wasted potential conflict for Adolin to struggle and be important for the plot.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Harbour

[Egomere]

8 minutes ago, Harbour said:

On that moment i felt like i smashed into the wall BS built instantly. "Here are the moment", - i thought.

Yeah, sure.

Yaep know how you feel... like running out of stormlight after running the highstorm... that plummeting feeling when you realise it's never going to happen (it being meaningful interaction between Kal and Shal...

Edited November 20, 2017 by Egomere

[Arch]

An average evening in the Kholin/Davar Household

Adolin: My gemstone, my back from a long day of drilling the troops!..Shallan are you here?
Veil: No, it's Veil today.
Adolin: Oh...well wanna go get a drink?
Radiant: Can't allow that, brightlord.
Adolin: Your turn, huh.
Radiant: Think of the implications of a married man regularly going out drinking with some woman.
Adolin: My wife?

 

Edit: I imagine it as bitter marriage because I'm a bad person.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Arch

[Egomere]

1 minute ago, Arch said:

An average evening in the Kholin/Davar Household

Adolin: My gemstone, my back from a long day of drilling the troops!..Shallan are you here?
Veil: No, it's Veil today.
Adolin: Oh...well wanna go get a drink?
Radiant: Can't allow that, brightlord.
Adolin: Your turn, huh.
Radiant: Think of the implications of a married man regularly going out drinking with some woman.
Adolin: My wife?

Radient : "But I'm not your wife"

Adolin : "Well send out Shallan"

Veil : "She's doing her hair... very important stuff"

Adolin : "Well is dinner ready at least?"

Radient : "It was logical for me to eat alone earlier as Veil has work to do tonight"...

[Guest]

I know that this is meant jokingly, but it is still better than backrubs and "without you I fade"

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Arch said:

An average evening in the Kholin/Davar Household

Adolin: My gemstone, my back from a long day of drilling the troops!..Shallan are you here?
Veil: No, it's Veil today.
Adolin: Oh...well wanna go get a drink?
Radiant: Can't allow that, brightlord.
Adolin: Your turn, huh.
Radiant: Think of the implications of a married man regularly going out drinking with some woman.
Adolin: My wife?

What a wonderful safe, consistent, regular household to bring up children in.  They'd be sooooooo lucky...... /s

On the other hand, it could be a very interesting set of scenes to write. I mean, what is Adolin going to do if he and Shallan are holding audiences (or whatever highprinces do) with others in the court and she is fluctuating between her alts?

1 minute ago, Egomere said:

Radient : "But I'm not your wife"

Adolin : "Well send out Shallan"

Veil : "She's doing her hair... very important stuff"

Adolin : "Well is dinner ready at least?"

Radient : "It was logical for me to eat alone earlier as Veil has work to do tonight"...

Adolin: (sighs) Will I ever actually get to see the real Shallan?

Veil: Probably - how's your schedule next week?

Adolin: Next week??! What does man have to do to get to some attention from the woman he married?

Veil: (cheekily) Fly? 

 

On second thoughts, this has a serious undercurrent of pain to it......

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

On second thoughts, this has a serious undercurrent of pain to it......

The most shocking thing is that it doesn't even seem that unrealistic... *cough* Veil becoming drinking buddies with Adolin. *cough*

[Harbour]

Im still amazed by how Shallan yelled at Adolin that she is not his prize just to make him look like a prize for her ten seconds later. Poor man.

[DeployParachute]

6 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Adolin: (sighs) Will I ever actually get to see the real Shallan?

Veil: Probably - how's your schedule next week?

Adolin: Next week??! What does man have to do to get to some attention from the woman he married?

Veil: (cheekily) Fly?

Ok, I legit LOLd at that

[Awesomness]

Ok I'm going to go full edge dancer now and confort you all poor souls: 

This Is Not Over. 

Sallan made a decision, and she seems decided because she is an unreliable narrator. She still has a long way to go before being mature and mentally stable, and its clear she took all her attraction for Kal and threw it under the carpet.

I wouldn't like her to be with Kaladin right now, I don't want her with Adolin either, on account of her being deranged. (Anyway courting the guy who unwillingly killed your brother is not simple thing). We will see what happens when she resolves her issues. 

Shaladin is Mostly Dead - we shall have some sort of closure.

 Wait and Hope.

 

[Ailvara]

43 minutes ago, Phalanx said:

So many good comments, I ran out of reputation and am not allowed to give any more today! I want to thumbs up almost all of you. Perfectly expressing how I feel about this.

It's the execution that was so sloppy. It was ridiculously bad, and honestly even if it's a "bait & switch" that will be reversed in the next 2 books somehow, that doesn't make this ending ok. That's just cheap writing, you can put any words you want down on a page. The tricky part is *justifying* those words through making your characters behave realistically, like humans.

And as for the discussion on "tropes," I'm just going to leave this here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreTools

Just because something is a "trope" doesn't mean that subverting it is automatically a good thing or good writing. The subversion *can* be a good thing, but it requires good writing just as much as playing it straight would.

If we assumed, that the surface of it all is the conclusion - that Shallan did get over her issues and made an educated decision as she thinks - it'd be terrible writing. Not just bad, but so bad that completely impossible coming from Brandon. But if we acknowledge all the hints, this isn't sloppy, but well justified, possibly excellent and very brave.

I think most of us assumed, that Shallan would put herself together and make a reasonable decision. But people don't usually get out of such huge mess as easily as fictional heroines. She made a few missteps in managing her psychological condition; ones that seemed fairly minor at the time she took them, and in line with how she is used to deal with problems. Oh well, just suppressing one more memory for a moment. Or putting up a face she needed for the job anyway.

Now she is in a fractured condition without realizing it, disconnected from her key character traits and feelings (including any feelings she has for Kaladin), lacks social experience (arguably even for her age, considering her messed-up family), she is understandably stressed and in desperate need for safety. She is already engaged to Adolin and expected to marry him - which puts on her some pressure, let's not pretend it doesn't - and, how luckily, he's a really good guy and they genuinely like each other, which is probably more than she could expect in a society where arranged marriages are normal. 

Now, who in her situation and state of mind would genuinely do something different, hands up, please. 

So, while current state of events is possibly a huge mistake on the young lovebirds part, it's not a mistake of the author. It's all justified. And there is no chance, that it won't be explored. And I think, that people who say this is all over, actually mean, that the further development will be done just between Adolin and Shallan. 

What I think we see here then, is Brandon purposefully setting up a very troubling situation, planning to address some quite heavy stuff. After cooling down a bit, I genuinely think, the if the trio would acknowledge and resolve their issues now, it would be... Too easy. And we still have 2(7) huge books to go.

Now, in this new level of mess, seeing Shallan wake up one day and having to decide between being herself (f.ex. possibly saving Pattern's life) and her marriage, her lies getting out, or any other tough situation that this may lead to... Well, this will be a challenge. Basically, by getting this inconclusive conclusion now, I think we're not stood up, but quite clearly promised much more emotional struggle that we ever anticipated. And whichever relationship prevails will be so much more genuine and mature than if it was all resolved now. 

That being said, there IS still tons of Shalladin hints out there which need to be acknowledged. And that's why I believe - although of this I'm understandably les confident, than of the sole fact, that this is not over - that this mess will eventually include Kaladin. For this moment, I don't want neither the divorce, Adolin's death nor Kal being the third wheel. But I trust Brandon with resolving this much more than myself, so this might as well be done in the satisfying way. This might require bending his comfort zone some more, but we've seen him done it, so I would anticipate it from the major romantic subplot in his grandest series.

[GoddessIMHO]

Putting aside the RL reality that an 18 year old girl with a personality illness is not a good candidate for a relationship.

Adolin, as a proto Edgedancer, is a good partner for Shallan.  He is a healer for her. The question is what can she give him when he breaks, as he likely will when he learns how his mother died. I can see him not being torn apart about killing Sadeas.  Has ANYONE in the Kholn camp thought anything but "good riddance" when they heard the news? He has issues because he broke the codes but not about what he did being a bad thing. It's not like he would kill just anyone like that.

The death of Sadeas is directly related to the troops being taken over by the Thrill so it does affect the story even though it wasn't how any of us guessed it would. 

Shallan still has to get past how she feels about Kaladin killing her brother.  I think that is behind her cutting remarks to Kaladin.  Logically, she knows he was just performing his duty during an attack.  Emotionally,  she still resents him for it. Then Veil comes out leering at Kaladin and wanting a physical relationship with him.

Face it, both Kaladin and Adolin are hunks and she is physically drawn to both. Can you say hormones? Given the circumstances I'm thinking all of them may have spent a private time on this issue.  They are all at prime mating time in human life cycle. 

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Adolin, as a proto Edgedancer, is a good partner for Shallan.  He is a healer for her.

Just listening doesn't constitute healing. He is not a healer but an anchor for the Shallan, that Shallan shows him, which I argue is not the real Shallan.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

What a wonderful safe, consistent, regular household to bring up children in.  They'd be sooooooo lucky...... /s

On the other hand, it could be a very interesting set of scenes to write. I mean, what is Adolin going to do if he and Shallan are holding audiences (or whatever highprinces do) with others in the court and she is fluctuating between her alts?

Adolin: (sighs) Will I ever actually get to see the real Shallan?

Veil: Probably - how's your schedule next week?

Adolin: Next week??! What does man have to do to get to some attention from the woman he married?

Veil: (cheekily) Fly? 

Ok so I seriously laughed when I read this

21 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

If we assumed, that the surface of it all is the conclusion - that Shallan did get over her issues and made an educated decision as she thinks - it'd be terrible writing. Not just bad, but so bad that completely impossible coming from Brandon. But if we acknowledge all the hints, this isn't sloppy, but well justified, possibly excellent and very brave.

I think most of us assumed, that Shallan would put herself together and make a reasonable decision. But people don't usually get out of such huge mess as easily as fictional heroines. She made a few missteps in managing her psychological condition; ones that seemed fairly minor at the time she took them, and in line with how she is used to deal with problems. Oh well, just suppressing one more memory for a moment. Or putting up a face she needed for the job anyway.

Now she is in a fractured condition without realizing it, disconnected from her key character traits and feelings (including any feelings she has for Kaladin), lacks social experience (arguably even for her age, considering her messed-up family), she is understandably stressed and in desperate need for safety. She is already engaged to Adolin and expected to marry him - which puts on her some pressure, let's not pretend it doesn't - and, how luckily, he's a really good guy and they genuinely like each other, which is probably more than she could expect in a society where arranged marriages are normal. 

Now, who in her situation and state of mind would genuinely do something different, hands up, please. 

So, while current state of events is possibly a huge mistake on the young lovebirds part, it's not a mistake of the author. It's all justified. And there is no chance, that it won't be explored. And I think, that people who say this is all over, actually mean, that the further development will be done just between Adolin and Shallan. 

What I think we see here then, is Brandon purposefully setting up a very troubling situation, planning to address some quite heavy stuff. After cooling down a bit, I genuinely think, the if the trio would acknowledge and resolve their issues now, it would be... Too easy. And we still have 2(7) huge books to go.

Now, in this new level of mess, seeing Shallan wake up one day and having to decide between being herself (f.ex. possibly saving Pattern's life) and her marriage, her lies getting out, or any other tough situation that this may lead to... Well, this will be a challenge. Basically, by getting this inconclusive conclusion now, I think we're not stood up, but quite clearly promised much more emotional struggle that we ever anticipated. And whichever relationship prevails will be so much more genuine and mature than if it was all resolved now. 

That being said, there IS still tons of Shalladin hints out there which need to be acknowledged. And that's why I believe - although of this I'm understandably les confident, than of the sole fact, that this is not over - that this mess will eventually include Kaladin. For this moment, I don't want neither the divorce, Adolin's death nor Kal being the third wheel. But I trust Brandon with resolving this much more than myself, so this might as well be done in the satisfying way. This might require bending his comfort zone some more, but we've seen him done it, so I would anticipate it from the major romantic subplot in his grandest series.

My negative reaction had less to do with Shallan making the wrong choice (or the right choice for some) or even bemoaning the seeming liklihood of this particular plot thread being wrapped up like a present then it does with this thread feeling like it was wrapped like a present from a 3 year old. I think many of us is are afraid that yes this WAS the wrap up of this plot thread. 

I don't honestly care at this point which one she chooses (or at all for that matter - girl needs some serious 'me' time) even though in eventuality at this point with all the build up and hints and interactions I still prefer Shalladin as endgame. I don't even mind if this is just one of those bad decisions (for many reasons) that every that everybody grows/changes from. Bad decisions are still decisions that factor into the growth of a character. 

What worries me is what I feel as broken promises to the reader in the form of skipping all these potentially character growing interactions that either A) where skipped over completely or B ) happened off screen and are just referred to - thus hanging the reader out to draw in terms of any sort of emotional payout. 

I can wait until the next book(s) to get some sort of closure or development - it's the worry that since scenes we THOUGHT would  would be banking in that meaniful interaction were cut/nonissue/off screen ( I.e. Sadeas murder/ Kaladin return and Shallan reaction to heleran/ flight to Thaylen/Shallan response to  Kaladin losing it in Shadesmar/ Adolin thoughts AT ALL in regards Shallan...) in the FUTURE this may not be addressed as an issue

Granted this book is enormous, not everything can make it in. I get that. But a well crafted scene doesn't have be pages and pages long. And these hints and build ups implied a payoff in some form that Just. Didn't. Happen. 

=Frustrated 

feeling a little like a childlike Syl when Kaladin starts breaking his Oaths- still trust BS but bond is a little bruised right now.

[mariapapadia]

3 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Putting aside the RL reality that an 18 year old girl with a personality illness is not a good candidate for a relationship.

Adolin, as a proto Edgedancer, is a good partner for Shallan.  He is a healer for her. The question is what can she give him when he breaks, as he likely will when he learns how his mother died.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I don't understand how this is healthy, RL or not. I've seen others being ok with it because of this reason and I really don't get it. It's about the message that is sent. I don't think in any kind of circumstances(books, fantasy, real life, vitual life whatever kind of life)  reinforcing the idea of healing through a romantic relationship is a good thing. It's also unfair to the other person to use them as a fixer. There is a difference in having a support in a partner and putting it all on him/her, which I feel Shallan does in this instance. 

I think there could;ve been other things explored in their relationship or other motivations for them being together, rather than "he is stable for her" as one of the main focuses. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Just a random thought...

It occurs to me that it feels like there's a thematic similarity between Kaladin's 3 main moods and having/holding/using Stormlight.

calm Kaladin: like Stormlight held in a gem

stormy Kaladin: like Stormlight being held in the body - gives one a strong impulse to take action.

gloomy Kaladin: that deflated feeling when you've consumed all your Stormlight.

 

(I don't mean to imply anything more than there been a certain thematic similarity here. I don't mean anything deep by it either. I just thought it was an interesting similarity)

[Nef]

8 hours ago, Harbour said:

Boom! My mind is blown. Only now i realized that it might be Shallan's personality (one of the three) who said this. Person itself isnt able to "fade away", but the "illusion" of the girl Adolin knows able.

She meant it not figuratively, but literally.

What looks like the SW prequel level of cringeworthy line might be one of the most obvious hints on Shallan' fragmentation.

Yep, I've also chosen to interpret Shallan's words literally as well.

That said, I wouldn't call that Shallan persona an illusion as it implies it's fake, which I disagree with. My opinion is that that persona is actually her anchor persona that she has to somehow consolidate her other personas into. I think the more she represses the Shallan personality (which she does because she hates herself) the more erratic her personality shifts become.

Hence, why I think Adolin is the right partner for her as he helps her anchor the Shallan personality as a starting point to her journey of integration. I think a gentle hand of support and acceptance is what Adolin will provide. He can be there to whisper sweet nothings into Shallan's ear so that she fill self worth. On the other hand, I don't think Kaladin would have delicacy or patience to be a good help to Shallan. When Kaladin sees a problem he tends to want it fixed instantly and can tend to take a figurative hammer to the situation.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Nef

[Starla]

1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Putting aside the RL reality that an 18 year old girl with a personality illness is not a good candidate for a relationship.

@GoddessIMHO This is what I'm having trouble putting aside. 

I care about Shallan's well being and sincerely want her to heal. I know she is strong, she has proven that multiple times in the first two books. However it is clear she has been falling apart since she acknowledged her involvement in her mother's death. It's only been two Rosharan months full of non-stop action since that huge truth, and she needs time to heal and ground herself. It appears that she has decided to look to Adolin to find her ground. The line "without you I fade" is so concerning. It means she is relying on him to be able to function properly. I know it is common for people to look for strength and comfort in relationships, but Shallan is not some random normal person. She is our main female protagonist, a Knight Radiant, and we want her to be awesome. 

As a female, I relate to her and want her to be strong and capable and to stand on her own two feet. Kaladin and Dalinar have had such growth. Nobody saved them, they saved themselves. I want Shallan to have the same strength, but as of the end of this book, I feel like she has just given all of her power away to another person. She is relying on Adolin to prop her up, to keep her from fading. Note that I would have felt just as disappointed if she chosen Kaladin in her current state. I'm all for romance, but not at the expense of the individual character development. Perhaps she can find her power within the marriage without relying on Adolin for it, but my hopes for Shallan's development as a Bad chull Super Radiant Woman are greatly diminished. (<---yes! another "chull." I love those. )

 

[AubreyWrites]

23 minutes ago, Nef said:

Yep, I've also chosen to interpret Shallan's words literally as well.

That said, I wouldn't call that Shallan persona an illusion as it implies it's fake, which I disagree with. My opinion is that that persona is actually her anchor persona that she has to somehow consolidate her other personas into. I think the more she represses the Shallan personality (which she does because she hates herself) the more erratic her personality shifts become.

Hence, why I think Adolin is the right partner for her as he helps her anchor the Shallan personality as a starting point to her journey of integration. I think a gentle hand of support and acceptance is what Adolin will provide. He can be there to whisper sweet nothings into Shallan's ear so that she fill self worth. On the other hand, I don't think Kaladin would have delicacy or patience to be a good help to Shallan. When Kaladin sees a problem he tends to want it fixed instantly and can tend to take a figurative hammer to the situation.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that Kaladin doesn't have the patience/empathy to deal with Shallan's issues Regardless of romantic connection. 

We have ample proof in both WoK and WoR of both patience and empathy and a discerning ability to help other people. Bridge 4 is perhaps the largest sample size. Through patience and determination he pulled them back from dispair. Just the act of instituting a daily meal shared together is one example of nudging them in the right direction rather than forcing cohesion. Just because we normally see him as character in motion and in midst of awesome choreography doesn't mean he is the hammer whose every problem is a nail. He is a fairly self aware person who is not afraid of conflict even when that conflict is internal. (That doesn't mean he solves it - just that he isnt afraid of confronting it) 

i took the fade comment as layered, both a soggy teenage profession of love and has maybe an unconscious self truth that the Shallan he knows - the incomplete fragmentation of her psyche that she has chosen to cling to as her main persona is not stable enough to remain in control unless Adolin is here to enable it. Not counting how wrong this is on so many levels this isn't going to work long term. 

If a wooden box breaks you can glue it back together and set it in clamps until the glue drys and the box is usable again. It's ok for Adolin to be the clamps- the support/comfort she needs while she glues herself back together ....but she wants ADOLIN to be the glue. That's not gonna fly for long- especially when Adolin  doesn't even know how many pieces he is supposed to be holding together 

[+Bliev]

After this thread i had to reread WOR to see what so many seemed to have seen between Shallan and Kal that i missed beyond her admitting she killed her father to him. She comes out of the chasm and immediately turns to Adolin for support. Even in the chasm she is thinking of Adolin. And when Adolin claims he’s going to protect her etc etc she gets mad and is honest with him, and he listens to her. I guess i never really saw Kal and her as “thing” in the same way as obviously so many did. I’ve been taken aback by it, i guess. I think I’ll re read even more trying to see it thru a different lens...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

After this thread i had to reread WOR to see what so many seemed to have seen between Shallan and Kal that i missed beyond her admitting she killed her father to him. She comes out of the chasm and immediately turns to Adolin for support. Even in the chasm she is thinking of Adolin. And when Adolin claims he’s going to protect her etc etc she gets mad and is honest with him, and he listens to her. I guess i never really saw Kal and her as “thing” in the same way as obviously so many did. I’ve been taken aback by it, i guess. I think I’ll re read even more trying to see it thru a different lens...

She was doing what she was expected to. Plus no need to stay with Kal. His broken leg was being fixed.

[Greywatch]

Speaking as someone who is not thrilled by either ship, I feel like Shallan and Adolin had more going for them.

The chasm scene had them admitting some amount of truth to each other, but not on the core level. The big Moment for me was Kaladin seeing Shallan's smile - but it meant totally different things to each of them. It was powerful to Kaladin because for him to be able to smile like that would be immense. If Kaladin could manage to smile like that, it would be incredible evidence of far he's come in his healing process. But for Shallan, who can put on a face very easily, that smile doesn't equal healing. Especially at the point she was back then, Shallan was approaching her nadir - whereas Kaladin was on his way up. Shallan's ability to smile isn't evidence of her healing, but her denying reality. I didn't find it a powerful moment of connection between the two of them; I thought it was a powerful moment of realization for Kaladin to realize that it was possible to heal and move on, and I also thought it wasn't healthy for Shallan to pretend that she was fine when she wasn't. 

To Kaladin, she always tried to present herself as whole and complete, and beyond the myriad other issues I have with this ship, her inability to be actually vulnerable with Kaladin is a point I can't get past. She was mad attracted to him, but never in a way where she really cared what he thought of her. She never tried to imagine what he went through, or how he thought about things, and in almost all of their interactions, she condescends to him - even if it's in a funny way. One moment of connection in the chasm doesn't undo that for me.

Whereas with Adolin, on the surface they seem more shallow, but she is really occupied with their relationship and actually making that work. No matter how deep or shallow anyone thinks their relationship is, her intention to work on her relationship with Adolin and make real sacrifices is what makes a relationship work for real.

At the beginning of OB, I thought for sure Adolin and Shallan weren't going to work out, mainly because neither was being honest with each other. But they surprised me - they admitted the deep truth they were scared to show the other. They told each other things they hadn't told anyone else - not Kaladin, or Dalinar, or Renarin, or anyone - and that was exactly when I knew - that at least for Oathbringer - this is the relationship that works. Shallan and Kaladin don't even have a flirtation, never mind anything stable enough to base a stable relationship on. It is at the level of a crush, and yeah, they could have something enough to start a relationship on... But they both choose not to. 

Lastly is that Adolin focuses a lot on Shallan enough to let Shallan relax and not have to have a persona with him. I do not think Kaladin was able to past the fronts she put on and in all of his POV, we see him just accepting whatever Shallan is putting forward. I see no textual evidence to support the idea that Kaladin knows her better than Adolin does. Whether he's unable to see past her facades, or whether he doesn't enough emotional connection with to her to try and get past her personas, the canonical evidence is that Adolin actively makes that attempt to get to know Shallan and Kaladin doesn't.

Lastly, this was something I thought was more under the radar, but I think it's a sign of success that Adolin and Veil are friends rather than that being a sign of lack in their relationship. The entire thing was Shallan being afraid to even let Adolin know that Veil existed, and even though this is a version of Shallan so distant he doesn't see her the same person as his fiancée/wife... Not only is Adolin completely unperturbed by Veil's existence, but he finds a way to share his life with this facet of Shallan, instead of Veil being an outsider to their relationship. That was the nail in the coffin for me to realize that they really were serious about each other. 

Adolin and Shallan have shared deep intense secrets about themselves with each other, allowed themselves emotional vulnerability and security even though their deep dark secrets were really deep and dark, and moved forward together after that, continually committing themselves to each other over and over again. All three of these kids have a ton of chemistry with each other, but romantic relationships aren't about that One Moment of connection or rosy feelings of exhilaration - but choosing to be with another person even if there are other options.

[wannabeninja]

Hey everyone

Firstly, I think Adolin has really shone in this book. However, as the story arc between him, shallan, and kaladin unfolded I saw that Adolin’s role in this three way relationship as not as shallan’s fiance/boyfriend. Rather he was an emotional anchor for BOTH Shallan and Kaladin almost a babysitter of sorts. Remember throughout this book Shallan has slowly degraded in her DID as she continued pushing uncomfortable thoughts into the back of her mind. Kaladin’s reservations about the nature of warring with voidbringers culminated into a extremely severe bout of depression/ptsd caused by the most horrifying circumstances. In both of these cases Adolin was there to pick BOTH of them back up and keep them going. Such as keeping up to make sure Kaladin was keeping up with the group after entering Shadesmar, or helping Shallan regain herself (or at least a semblance of herself) whenever she was having a bout of extreme DID. However, Adolin seems to only be able to help them deal with the “symptoms” of their problems not the “source” of it. With Kaladin, if Kaladin were to ever “freeze” he would be there to help pull him out of it however, when it comes to dealing with Kaladin’s anxiety and and depressive episodes he is either is oblivious or probably doesn’t know what to do. With Shallan we already know that Shallan is using him as essentially a mental haven whenever uncomfortable thoughts or her DID are starting to overwhelm her however, although he tries to talk to her about this issue she always just brushing it off. To me this shows that Adolin is a GOOD FRIEND who wants to and can occasionally help them, however, he doesn’t truly understand what they are going through and can only relate so much to not just shallan but also Kaladin.

 

Secondly, my theory that Shallan and Adolin are going to break up/”divorce” in the next book is not because of a personal distaste of the Shadolin ship (there are some great scenes in OB like when Adolin starts teaching Shallan about fighting with a shard blade and the dinner scene at the beginning of the book) but rather feel their relationship is not going to last because of one major thing. This wedding has established that Shallan has essentially connected and equated her relationship with Adolin to her delusion that “everything is alright” when it is clearly not. Her relationship with Adolin is now directly tied to that delusion. So when she confronts that delusion she will also have to confront her true feelings for Adolin and they are probably not as she initially thought. However, this brings the other point that people think this will cause angsty Love-Triangle Drama. However, I think that this break up might be more amicable. Adolin has had a surprising streak of always taking things in stride, it will definitely be disheartening and sad but not drama-filled. I think that the Shadolin ship will ultimately be a learning experience for Shallan, a lesson that will help her realize herself. That’s also why I think it won’t end with Adolin dying, because if he does then it takes all of the agency of Shallan’s story away and nobody wants that and I’m pretty sure BS is a good enough author to realize that. As dalinar said at the very end of OB “A Journey will have pain and failure...The knowledge that we will fail. That we will hurt those around us...if we accept the person we are when we fall. The Journey ends...To Love the Journey is to accept no such end...The most important step a person can take is always the next one.” Dalinar learned this lesson at the end of this book and I think Shallan is about to have a very interesting yet familiar lesson in the next one.

 

Lastly, maybe it’s just me but everybody seems to think the Shalladin story seems to be just some side plot attached to the overall story arcs of Kaladin and Shallan. However, after reading the books several times I’ve come to realize that the Shalladin arc has actually been there from the very beginning. The Shalladin story is very much heavily tied to Kaladin and Shallan’s story. There’s a duality between them that’s been there from the very beginning, especially when it comes to their respective love lives. In the Way of Kings we explore Kaladin’s first childhood romance with Laral, a young lighteyed girl who lives with her family in a small estate in the countryside (boy doesn’t that sound familiar). With Shallan we have her first experiences at romance with Kabsal, a student ardent studying in the schools of Kharbranth (where was Kaladin going to again before the whole Army debacle?) Both of these romances were short-lived and ended in tragic ways (Laral ends up married to Roshone, and Kabsal turns out to be an assassin who dies in his attempt at Jasnah’s life). The second book we get more overt references to the duality between Kaladin and Shallan’s story. First there’s the slight nod to them riding the same cart into the shattered plains. Then Shallan becomes betrothed to Adolin. Her second romance. From here, although we got glimpses of it in the first book, we start to get a more solid picture of Kaladin’s previous relationship with Tarah. Kaladin’s second romance. Then of course there’s the chasm sequence. Finally OB, Shallan’s relationship with Adolin starts to get more serious, and we suddenly get a straight up vivid flashback to Kaladin’s relationship with Tarah as he tries to deal with his feelings for Shallan. From all these observations this has shown me that these two possibly have/or can have a deep connection. They’ve shared extremely similar life experiences and you can tell that it’s there when they interact with each other (at least it is from how I interpret it). That’s why I have grown to like this Shalladin ship so much. @PhineasGage  pointed out that a big theme of Stormlight is symmetry. Not only do we see that in their respective back stories but that actually has reinforced me more towards thinking that I think they will end up together now. One of the biggest unexplored factors in the Shalladin relationship is that we haven’t really seen if Kaladin can connect with and help Shallan on the level that she helped him. Yes Shallan has connected with Kaladin and helped him. Kaladin refers to his relationship with shallan as “A lightening of burdens,” she doesn’t “fix” Kaladin’s depression and deep seated issues, but she does make it more easier to live with. She's taught him that maybe always being "brightlord-brooding eyes" isn't the best way to go about ilfe. That's what she showed him in the chasm and that lesson has culminated at the end of OB Kaladin learning that it’s okay to be happy and that there can be brightness in the world. Kaladin has grown as a person from his relationship with Shallan. How does this relate to the theme of symmetry? Well like I said in my last post I think Shallan is about to have a very familiar predicament to us readers in Stormlight 4. Stuck between two Oaths she can’t keep slowly killing a spren, with the way she is right now she’s probably going to need some help and to talk to someone who’s had a similar experience and I think it about time Kaladin’s going to return the favor. Perhaps a chasm-toned sequence where the roles are reversed? Many people seem to be disappointed by the way this romance has panned out but for me I’m excited. I feel that what many people thought as simple side story that ended abruptly without resolution in this book is actually a slow romantic burn that began from the very first book and is going to span the entire first five story arc. That what seems like an abrupt end with no answers is actually a crescendo like turning point of this story. I may not have changed anyone’s mind about this issue but nonetheless, for me this is why I can’t wait for Stormlight 4…

 

P.S. i know that the Shalladin story is probably extremely trope fillled but with that line of thinking you’re focusing on the destination remember the journey is what makes it interesting

 

P.P.S. My wishful thinking theory is this leads to a Radiant battle couple 

 

 

 

[Nef]

3 hours ago, AubreyWrites said:

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that Kaladin doesn't have the patience/empathy to deal with Shallan's issues Regardless of romantic connection. 

We have ample proof in both WoK and WoR of both patience and empathy and a discerning ability to help other people. Bridge 4 is perhaps the largest sample size. Through patience and determination he pulled them back from dispair. Just the act of instituting a daily meal shared together is one example of nudging them in the right direction rather than forcing cohesion. Just because we normally see him as character in motion and in midst of awesome choreography doesn't mean he is the hammer whose every problem is a nail. He is a fairly self aware person who is not afraid of conflict even when that conflict is internal. (That doesn't mean he solves it - just that he isnt afraid of confronting it) 

I agree with you, Kaladin has empathy in spades and I definitely didn't mean to imply he was lacking in that area. When I describe Kaladin as a hammer I guess I mean he tends to directly confront a problem with all his energy. I just don'i imagine him giving Shallan much space if he were realise the extent of her mental issues/how much she hates herself. I can easily see a situation where he ends up blaming himself for her problems, which in turns makes Shallan feel bad about herself, and the result being some sort of negative spiral of mental issues.