[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Closest I could find so far.

Good job - I think that is plenty to prove the idea the beyond reasonable doubt that our basis to assume she had progressed quite far as a child - I am not sure how relevant it is to the story now. She has repressed so much that she may never recover those memories - indeed Pattern says something about her needing to learn again if she can't remember how to surgebind fully in WoR. Repression may not be the best coping mechanism, but unless it gets out of hand, it can work to keep someone functioning. It isn't as inherently problematic as the Shallan's dissociation. 

7 hours ago, Elena said:

Honestly, I feel a bit toyed with and definitely don't want any more of this arc. I'm all for analysing Shallan's mental state, but as soon as I even start to have thoughts about the state of her marriage I feel exhausted. No more.

Totally fair enough! Tho, I would respectfully suggest that you stay out if this thread - for you own good! I mean, I for one can't seem to stop scratching at the wound and making it bleed all over again. I don't want to bring others down with me! 

7 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Finally, Adolin was relieved at the betrothal.  He didn't really know what he was doing wrong.

I agree completely with this - he wants to help Shallan and it isn't his fault if he actually can't. I am concerned that she will blame him though and he definitely doesn't deserve that.

 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I know we have two more books in the "front five," but with Eshonai/Venli and Szeth being the main POV characters, I don't see Shallan getting the space she needs to actually deal with who she is and what she wants. It's much easier to play house with the pretty boy who says nice things than to change. And I think she does need to change.

Empahasis mine: I agree it is much  easier to lay down the burden of trying to change than accept the need to change. But this fundamentally breaks the "journey before destination" element of the oaths. I believe Dalinar points this out. Now I think Shallan does need a break, and I suspect the time-lapse will give her the necesary space - possibly book 4 as a whole will give her the space as well so I don't expect to see much development from her in the next book. 

On the other hand, just because it is Szeth and Eshonai's books does not mean she can't get much screen time. OB was Dalinar's book but Shallan gets a huge amount of screentime regardless. Kaladin got a huge amount of cover in WoR and ob was his "mini-flashback" book (for want of a better term). I do not think Kaladin got much progression in Book 4, but he did make some serious strides - I mean, for one thing, he's almost at the 4th Ideal. His flashbacks in OB were actually the most important part of his development. It would be entirely reasonable (esp given the way Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other in other sections of the books) for Shallan to have a "slow-burn" progression with minor flashbacks, most likely in Book 4, so that she can start to get to the point where her final ideal becomes a real possibility in book 5. I posted some WoB from Reddit earlier and in that BS specifically states that he expects Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan to keep getting a good proportion of the coverage, their individual arcs seem to be so tied to each other and the direction of the series. 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

It's hard now that they're married though. If it does go south, spren don't look to kindly on oath-breaking. On the other hand, if Brandon does decide to explore her issues, maybe it will make her and Adolin stronger as a couple!

Of all of the spren, the cryptics seem to be the most likely to accept oathbreaking (external to the Ideals of course) as long as it leads to self-awareness. I would be more inclined to worry that she would lose the trust of Dalinar and Kaladin because they and their spren cannot handle oathbreaking. 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I feel bad ending it on that note. Kaladin isn't perfect either. In real life, the broodiness and doom and gloom attitude would get annoying. As a character in a fantasy epic, he is just so good. And smart and funny and very insightful and sensitive. As someone with depression, I like seeing a character who seriously struggles with it and never gives up. Adolin doesn't have that emotional draw for me. He's a good guy, but his defining character trait for this book was "fashionable," which I found quite disappointing.

Doom and gloom would get annoying but he is much lighter around Shallan. I agree with finding Adolin irritating. But then, I'm one of those people who is finds the idea of a partner who takes much longer than me to get ready really annoying. Its a good device to give humourous moments to the books, but living with it would get very old very quickly imo.

2 hours ago, wannabeninja said:

I think Shallan’s wedding is partly to juxtapose to that scene

I agree fully with this. Mirroring is a major part of the books - symmettry is vitally important on Roshar and the SA books all have massive elements of this throughout them. If you look at a compare/contrast of the Dalinar/Navani vs Adoin/Shallan wedding the contrasts are striking - Shallan even points some of this out.

1) Speed: Navani and Dalinar spend ages in an unrecognised but committed relationship. They rush the formal ceremony associated with Vorin weddings because, in a way, it is the least important bit to them - they are already committed. The words, whilst important to both of them, are essentially something they were already living.  Contrast this with Adolin/Shallan; they are in a formal but uncommitted relationship for 99% of the time they have known each other (I know the causal is less official than a full betrothal but it does lend a great deal of structure). Once the decision is made to marry, they rush the time to get to the "main event" of the wedding but take a huge amount of time to actually do the ceremony. The ceremony is, in some way, more important than the entering into the full betrothal.

2) The ceremony itself; Firstly, we, as the reader, see Navani/Dalinar's wedding. It is important from Dalinar's perspective to narrate it. On the other hand, we only see Shallan's buildup. I know it is Dalinar's book, but Shallan gets a huge amount of screentime elsewhere - but this bit is glossed over. Secondly, Navani and Dalinar have a small, private wedding - only the most important people to them are invited. Now I know some of this is political/religious in nature because of the condemnation of their marriage by the Vorin church, but some of it is because they only see the need to have those they love there for this important moment in their lives. the Adolin/Shallan wedding, in comparison is this major "royal wedding" where all the great and the good are invited - full of pomp and circumstance. They are required to go through all kinds of rituals and things before-hand. We don't know if Dalinar and Navani do this to the same extent- because from Dalinar's perspective those are much less important than the wedding itself. Shallan, on the other only shows the bit where she is alone. 

3) The glyphwards; I don't think we can be sure that Navani burned a glyphward prior to marrying Dalinar, but can anyone really imagine that she didn't? Navani is religious, devout and a genuine believer - despite marrying a confirmed heretic. Shallan, in contrast, never gets round to burning a glyphward before she leaves her chamber - she burns Mraize's letter instead. She seems to think Shallan is religious but we see very little actual evidence of this. The first thing we see Navani do when she thinks Dalinar is dead after Sadeas' betrayal is paint and burn a giant glyphward. How many do we see Shallan actually burn throughout the books? She says she should but she doesn't actually do that many from what I recall, and at a lifechanging moment, she neglects to do so.

4) Colours - ok so i've addressed this before but Navani wears "the traditional red", whereas Shallan wears "sapphire". Now even if we just assume this is simply blue because of the Kholin element, it isn't traditional otherwise although the rest of the ceremony seems to be following strictly to the traditional path of a Vorin ceremony. It's a minor point but very visual, appropriately for a lightweaver I suppose

5) Emotions. Dalinar feels nervous and is practically shaking. Shallan goes from feeling annoyed, tired, stressed, and disgruntled and put upon to suddenly feeling bright, cheerful and happy.She doesn't mention nerves - although we see her get nervous in loads of other situations - sometime without needs. She goes out of her solitude "to celebrate herself" - Dalinar in contrast only achieves proper joy once the wedding is complete - He cannot quite let himself believe it because it was something "he hadn't even allowed himself to dream". 

6) Gifts. This takes a while in the run-up to Shallan's wedding and we see several gifts. Navani and Dalinar skip the gift giving - it is explicitly stated that they insist no gifts were needed. Now again, some of this is political but it also shows that Navani and Dalinar need no gifts because they are getting each other. Shallan might have found the pre-wedding gift giving ceremony a trial, but it seems to be because she doesn't feel worthy to have the attention, not because she cannot wait for for the actual wedding to Adolin. 

It is these kinds of reverse symmetry elements that I truly love about Sanderson's writing, and why, despite feeling the end of OB (from the Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan perspective) was lacklustre, that I will continue to read his books. Now, obviously, until the front 5 are finished, this symmetry may indicate less than I currently believe, but for the time being, I am very prepared to look for symmetry in the books because these are the kind of devices that Sanderson loves to use. 

 

On an unrelated note, I do aologise for continually writing epic length posts - I feel like I am taking over this thread  sorry.

Edited November 20, 2017 by PhineasGage
typos

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Speed: Navani and Dalinar spend ages in an unrecognised but committed relationship. They rush the formal ceremony associated with Vorin weddings because, in a way, it is the least important bit to them - they are already committed. The words, whilst important to both of them, are essentially something they were already living.  Contrast this with Adolin/Shallan; they are in a formal but uncommitted relationship for 99% of the time they have known each other (I know the causal is less official than a full betrothal but it does lend a great deal of structure). Once the decision is made to marry, they rush the time to get to the "main event" of the wedding but take a huge amount of time to actually do the ceremony. The ceremony is, in some way, more important than the entering into the full betrothal.

Another thing is... it is highly implied, that Shallan is looking forward to the wedding, because she can finally have sex with Adolin then...

Quote

It was finally time. The wedding date had been set for only one week away--once the Alethi put their minds to something, they made it happen. Well, that was good. Shallan wouldn't want to go too far in a relationship without oaths, and storms, even one week was starting to sound like an eternity.

On one hand, I can understand it. She's young, still a virgin and excited for it, but shouldn't you be looking forward to something else when you're marrying the supposed love of your life? Does she even understand the importance of the wedding? Is sex the highest expression of love?

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Emotions. Dalinar feels nervous and is practically shaking. Shallan goes from feeling annoyed, tired, stressed, and disgruntled and put upon to suddenly feeling bright, cheerful and happy.She doesn't mention nerves - although we see her get nervous in loads of other situations - sometime without needs. She goes out of her solitude "to celebrate herself" - Dalinar in contrast only achieves proper joy once the wedding is complete - He cannot quite let himself believe it because it was something "he hadn't even allowed himself to dream". 

Funny thing is, that she sees all of that as a celebration of herself, Veil tells her so, when weddings normally are supposed to be celebrations of the couple. She completely forgets Adolin the process. Also the fact that Veil again doesn't associate herself with Shallan.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't think we can be sure that Navani burned a glyphward prior to marrying Dalinar, but can anyone really imagine that she didn't? Navani is religious, devout and a genuine believer - despite marrying a confirmed heretic. Shallan, in contrast, never gets round to burning a glyphward before she leaves her chamber - she burns Mraize's letter instead. She seems to think Shallan is religious but we see very little actual evidence of this. The first thing we see Navani do when she thinks Dalinar is dead after Sadeas' betrayal is paint and burn a giant glyphward. How many do we see Shallan actually burn throughout the books? She says she should but she doesn't actually do that many from what I recall, and at a lifechanging moment, she neglects to do so.

Radiant even reminds her, she still forgets.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

@SLNC I had missed the sexual element - although frankly I should be ashamed because that honestly seems to be the whole basis for their bloody relationship (thinking about how she persuades him that flying is the least of her concerns about a life mate). I mean, don't get me wrong, Flying probably should not be the first thing you look for in a partner, but perhaps, wanting to rip their clothes off shouldn't be either?

Another thing I forgot to mention was that she is excited about the wedding. Dalinar is excited about the marriage. Perhaps I'm old fashioned but isn't the marriage the important bit? I mean a wedding is basically just an expensive party and an excuse for your friends to get drunk at your expense. I am strongly reminded of a Friends scene (showing my age) where Chandler says he doesnt want to spend all his money of the wedding because he wants to spend it on the marriage.  (for the record - this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1eaQem6kZk)

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by PhineasGage
typo

[Ailvara]

Quote

Fortunately, Veil was running this operation. Shallan... Shallan got lost in things. She'd get focused on details, or stick her head in the clouds and dream about the big picture. 

Now I'll just purposefully leave it here in the middle of the conversation about the wedding. 

[Guest]

@PhineasGage

The way I see it:

There is a lot of passion on Shallan's side, but love? Love is a different matter.

Passion is a feeling of ecstasy and euphoria. The stuff, she feels when being all cuddly and kissing with Adolin. And passion doesn't last. It is a state of being.

Love is a state of living. Shared principles and values, respect, honesty, kindness, support, problem solving skills and communication. A deep understanding of your partner’s needs and wants in order for them to be pleased. To learn the desires of each other, the ability to help one another achieve their goals, and to have the willingness to love each other and keep the love going.

All parts of what true love constitutes. The stuff, that should be in place, when marrying. Not all of it, of course. But atleast some.

Passion is not love. It is a part of love. She says, that she loves Adolin, but many young couples mistake passion for love.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Now I'll just purposefully leave it here in the middle of the conversation about the wedding. 

I feel stupid but you are obviously trying to make an important point here but I don't understand what it is (sorry) please explain to my poor befuddled brain?

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

She says, that she loves Adolin, but many young couples mistake passion for love.

I would suggest that, perhaps, most do? It is, at least believable. The difference is that I don't have to watch/hear real life teenagers being sickening to each other.  From this perspective alone I am glad there is a planned time-break to the beginning of book 4. They will likely have gotten over the worst of it.

....."without you I fade"...... ugh. Worst. Line. Ever.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I would suggest that, perhaps, most do? It is, at least believable. The difference is that I don't have to watch/hear real life teenagers being sickening to each other.  From this perspective alone I am glad there is a planned time-break to the beginning of book 4. They will likely have gotten over the worst of it.

....."without you I fade"...... ugh. Worst. Line. Ever.

I agree, but what I meant is that I don't see her ready to fully give herself to Adolin. To fully commit herself. Which would be signs of true love. Shallan seeks passion and safety and mistakes it for love.

I wonder how she will react if Adolin suddenly wants something from her for once. Because right now, Adolin is the only one making sacrifices.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Ailvara]

12 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I feel stupid but you are obviously trying to make an important point here but I don't understand what it is (sorry) please explain to my poor befuddled brain?

Sorry about that! I just linked it to Shallan's reasons for marrying Adolin and attitude to the wedding that was just discussed. How she concentrates on lust, rituals and so on (details) and when it comes to the big picture (love, marriage) she has her head in the clouds. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Ailvara

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

Sorry about that! I just linked it to Shallan's reasons for marrying Adolin and attitude to the wedding that was just discussed. How she concentrates on lust, rituals and so on (details) and the big picture she sees (love, marriage) is largely a product of her wishful thinking. 

Thank you. I was up late (reading this forum) so I'm exhausted! I blame the 17th Shard for my stupidity today. 

I do agree with you essentially showing how she wont manage the day-to-day problems of  a serious committed relatiosnhip.

12 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Adolin is the only one making sacrifices

Indeed, I doubt very much that he left his chamber thinking that the wedding was a celebration of him! Adolin can be a bit self-centred but he's getting better. More importantly, given that he could easily have let himself be trapped into a marriage of convenience before and chose not to, I think he takes the idea of marriage seriously. Given that Shallan's family life seems to have been very messed up, she likely has little understanding of what a happy healthy marriage actually looks like.

[ScavellTane]

Well, they do have Dalinar and Navani to emulate, sort of.

[Nef]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Totally fair enough! Tho, I would respectfully suggest that you stay out if this thread - for you own good! I mean, I for one can't seem to stop scratching at the wound and making it bleed all over again. I don't want to bring others down with me! 

@PhineasGage I'm totally identifying with you right now. I know I could save a lot of emotional energy and accept the relationship statuses at face value and intially that was what I was ready to do at the end of OB. But nope I find myself back on the Shalladin ship. It's mainly because the facts that have been presented as foreshadowing of a continuation of the Shalladin ship have been so convincing to me.

4 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Besides tell me there wasn't more chemistry in that one Kaladin/Jasnah interaction than the whole damnation triangle. 

I do find myself seeing the beauty in Shallan and Kaladin ending up together after experiencing of a journey of significant relationships with other people. After all, I will maintain that the two of them aren't ready for one another in their current states. So given that Adolin is Shallan's "significant relationship", the question is who is Kaladin's? And I'm really starting to like the idea of Jasnah being that person, age difference aside.

They barely know another at the moment, but we do know that what Kaladin is attracted to; a high-functioning, resilient version of Shallan that she hasn't developed into yet. In my mind Jasnah actually fits this bill and the fact that Shallan often tries to emulate Jasnah reinforces my assertion I think. The reveal that Jasnah has a compassionate and merciful side tells me they could be compatible on an emotional level as well. 

HOnestly, I really want an ultimate Radiant couple! Jasnah and Kaladin can be that couple; the two of them possess the most will and drive out of all the Urithiru crew, they're both relentless in their passion to "save the world".

Edited November 20, 2017 by Nef

[the_archduke]

Amazing how no one here seems to want Shallan and Adolin to be happy together.   You are ignoring Shallan's heartfelt explanation of why she chose Adolin and doesn't want Kaladin.   Ten pages of over-analyzing how, even though Adolin and Shallan are married, she is still somehow going to end up with Kaladin.  Give it up people.  The SS Shalladin has been sunk.  

[Nef]

@the_archduke I expect and hope that Shallan and Adolin will be happy together. What I will maintain is that Shallan and Kaladin have/had an attraction to one another and I don't think OB resolved how this attraction could disappear from book 4 onwards. My hope is that the attraction will just be a minor undercurrent going forwards with Kaladin and Shallan maturing their separate ways, only for it to resurface later on.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Nef

[Oberyn]

32 minutes ago, Nef said:

 

I do find myself seeing the beauty in Shallan and Kaladin ending up together after experiencing of a journey of significant relationships with other people. After all, I will maintain that the two of them aren't ready for one another in their current states. So given that Adolin is Shallan's "significant relationship", the question is who is Kaladin's? And I'm really starting to like the idea of Jasnah being that person, age difference aside.

They barely know another at the moment, but we do know that what Kaladin is attracted to; a high-functioning, resilient version of Shallan that she hasn't developed into yet. 

This would actually be a super interesting way to go about the romance with Kaladin and Shalan maturing more and could be one those very rare amazing couples in fantasy series.

Although I agree with your idea of why Shalan and Kal could work very well together, one of the few thing I never had faith in Brandon is his ability to do a nice complex romance in his series. Anyway I do believe that the main romance from mistborn 2 era is the best he has ever written so maybe Mr. Sanderson will surprise me yet again.

[Darvys]

33 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Amazing how no one here seems to want Shallan and Adolin to be happy together.   You are ignoring Shallan's heartfelt explanation of why she chose Adolin and doesn't want Kaladin.   Ten pages of over-analyzing how, even though Adolin and Shallan are married, she is still somehow going to end up with Kaladin.  Give it up people.  The SS Shalladin has been sunk.  

It was a submarine all along, it'll emerge again when the time is right.

Still, there's too many oddities with how the plot was handled to assume this is the end, the point isn't whether she ends up with Kal or not, some of us here are happy that he got away from the mess that is Shallan currently, the point is that we're not buying that Shallan has reached some semblance of ballance in the end of OB and we believe that her marriage is bound to fail or at least hit multiple walls before this is through. We'd be ok with the two of them being happy together, but only if the issues preventing that were addressed and not just magically erased.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Oberyn said:

Anyway I do believe that the main romance from mistborn 2 era is the best he has ever written so maybe Mr. Sanderson will surprise me yet again.

Reckoners spoilers:

Spoiler

Megan and David take the cake. Truly a beautiful couple. 

Steris and Wax are great though.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[discorat]

18 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

 

He doesnt mind killing main characters. He killed off Vin and Elend. He killed off Lightsong in Warbreaker. He killed off Kelsier and quite alot of his crew in the Mistborn trilogy. And no, Kelsier was dead for the purposes of that story so I'm not going to allow his Resurrection to be considered as an out here. The characters in that story thought he was dead and had to get on with it.  We only found out he hadnt passed on long after the trilogy was completed. Hell, Eshonai is dead, she's pretty main and is possibly the flashback candidate for book 5.

Adolin dying is definitely a possibility. Honestly, I don't want him to but if he has to I'd rather he died on the right side than accidentally goes all Odium on us.

 

3

True, but all those seem like..exceptions. Kelsier died early on- and when he did, I felt like Vin was more of the main. Lightson died in the very end, like Vin+Elend. Adolin feels like a proper main, or that could just be because we got so much material of him bc stormlight is so big.

I wouldn't want Adolin to die either; but him dying on the 'wrong' side would be exciting, imo. It would add drama and angs which i love. Even though i love Adolin. But I _never_ imagined Dalinar to be odiums champion, but everyone could see Adolin becoming his champion- if Dalinar was so close to becoming odiums champion, why not Adolin? 

[discorat]

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Reckoners spoilers:

  Hide contents

Megan and David take the cake. Truly a beautiful couple. 

Steris and Wax are great though.

Honestly, i didn't really like the reckoners couple. They were to teenage-y for me. Steris+Wax were The couple that learned to become friends first, before they became romantically involved. Ideal relationship.

[Oberyn]

Just now, Discofrish said:

Honestly, i didn't really like the reckoners couple. They were to teenage-y for me. Steris+Wax were The couple that learned to become friends first, before they became romantically involved. Ideal relationship.

Yes that is my main line of thinking talking about Wax+Steris. I kind of see the apeal of the reckoners guys but I do prefer mature romance in general, as I feel they usually make for better complexity in the relationship itself which is both more realistic and interesting to me. 

One of the very good things about the mistborn couple is that Brandon manage to do it without overwhelming the story with it, which is very typical.

[discorat]

Just now, Oberyn said:

Yes that is my main line of thinking talking about Wax+Steris. I kind of see the apeal of the reckoners guys but I do prefer mature romance in general, as I feel they usually make for better complexity in the relationship itself which is both more realistic and interesting to me. 

One of the very good things about the mistborn couple is that Brandon manage to do it without overwhelming the story with it, which is very typical.

Exactly, mature romance>>>everything else. Which is why i prefer Shallan/Kaladin.

And yes, Sanderson is great with romance in that it never overshadows the main plot (which is why everyone reads his books in the first place, anyways).

[Harbour]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

....."without you I fade"...... ugh. Worst. Line. Ever.

Boom! My mind is blown. Only now i realized that it might be Shallan's personality (one of the three) who said this. Person itself isnt able to "fade away", but the "illusion" of the girl Adolin knows able.

She meant it not figuratively, but literally.

What looks like the SW prequel level of cringeworthy line might be one of the most obvious hints on Shallan' fragmentation.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Harbour

[Bacon]

I really, really hope Kaladin and Shallan don't get together. It's so tropey and predictable that I really want the series to NOT do the thing everyone obviously knew was definitely going to happen since the first few chapters of book 1

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

I really, really hope Kaladin and Shallan don't get together. It's so tropey and predictable that I really want the series to NOT do the thing everyone obviously knew was definitely going to happen since the first few chapters of book 1

Shallan and Adolin are just as tropey.

[AbsentKeeper]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Shallan and Adolin are just as tropey.

I agree, which is why I'm not a huge fan of either pairing. I really like both Shallan and Adolin as separate characters, but their relationship is just another 'arranged marriage turns out to be perfect' trope.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Bacon]

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Shallan and Adolin are just as tropey.

They're tropey, but nowhere near to those levels. They start as utterly unrelated PoV characters in the first book, they both discover their surgebinding at the same time, they have inborn prejudices against each other (lighteyes and darkeyes), they're always accidentally running into each other, the list goes on. Every step of the way, the narrative is practically screaming "THESE TWO WILL BE TOGETHER!". Even when Shalan and Adolin started seeing each other, there was a constant undertone of "yeah, but just until she falls in love with Kaladin"