Windrunner

theory
[OB] Ba-Ado-Mishram's Location

37 posts in this topic

Fascinating theory. 

3 years until we find out anything more. 

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I'm personally wondering if Ba-Ado-Mishram is in Gavilar's sphere.

Didn't the journal excerpts mention that one of the consistent legends surrounding it was that you had to swallow a sphere in order to gain the 10 surges?

I like your idea of there being a secret under Kholinar, but I feel like trapping an unmade under such a huge population center wouldn't really have cut it as a plan.  I'm wondering if it's something even older than an unmade, possibly related to the patterned architecture of Kholinar.  Maybe something related to the dawnsingers?

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The problem with your theory is that the singers have had their ability to change form restored and Fused don't seem to be limited in the amount of Voidlight available. So Ba-Ado-Mishram must have already been freed. I'd posit that she is the spren of the Everstorm, and the Stormform listeners freed her at the end of WoR.

Also, the thing they were looking for at the palace could just as well have been Elhokar's spren.

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Agree 100%. Those were basically my impressions as well, but I hadn't made the last connection about Gavilar getting his Voidlight from her and hiding her in Kholinar. The size of that Dalinar used at the end of Oathbringer makes me think that the normal spheres are too small to hold an Unmade, and it also evidences that a perfectly cut gem is not a sphere. My initial impression of the last scene was that Odium's forces were after the Cryptic that Hoid rescued, since he recovered it from the same location. But I like your interpretation better.

13 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

Didn't the journal excerpts mention that one of the consistent legends surrounding it was that you had to swallow a sphere in order to gain the 10 surges?

That was swallowing a gemstone, for Yelig-Nar. Which is what we saw happen on-screen with Amaram and the small amethyst, and referenced off-screen with Aesudan.

13 hours ago, Xenolith said:

The problem with your theory is that the singers have had their ability to change form restored and Fused don't seem to be limited in the amount of Voidlight available. So Ba-Ado-Mishram must have already been freed. I'd posit that she is the spren of the Everstorm, and the Stormform listeners freed her at the end of WoR.

Also, the thing they were looking for at the palace could just as well have been Elhokar's spren.

Ba-Ado-Mishram provided Forms and Voidlight during the False Desolation, as referenced in the stormlight archive epigraphs. (Or is that not a good name for the gemstone library in Urithiru?) Odium normally provided both, but Ba-Ado was able to fill in for a period of time, resulting in the war that was happening during the Feverstone Keep visions. With Odium returned through a proper Desolation, they can take on forms without Ba-Ado. But she still has a big role to play as a commander,

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Someone help me out. I've heard about the False Desolation before, but I cannot find any information about it, not even on google (the literally only hit I got was this thread).

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45 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Someone help me out. I've heard about the False Desolation before, but I cannot find any information about it, not even on google (the literally only hit I got was this thread).

Jasnah first mentions it in Chapter 56, as her theory for what the Radiants were fighting at the time of the Recreance. We apparently had parshmen taking on voidforms outside of an actual Desolation (so, presumably they didn't have Fused or Thunderclasts or anything like that.) The Chapter 80 epigraph is what I think connects Ba-Ado to that, since the other gemstone recordings were set shortly before the abandonment of Urithiru and the Recreance.

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Good theory, I like it.

If I may, I think I can add a little bit of extra evidence towards it, though it's minor and speculative.

Chapter 83: Crimson to Break's epigraph reads the following:

Quote

As the duly appointed keepers of the perfect gems, we of the Elsecallers have taken the burden of protecting the ruby nicknamed Honor’s Drop. Let it be recorded.

Later, Dalinar imprisons Nergaoul inside the King's Drop, a large ruby that hasn't leaked Stormlight in over 2,000 thousand years - a pretty good candidate for a perfect gem, and a pretty good candidate for Honor's Drop (whose name got lost in time).

I find it likely that another perfect gemstone was used to trap Ba-Ado-Mishram. And if they are as rare and precious to warrant storage in Thaylen City's reserve, then it's entirely possible that Kholinar's own reserve has had another one. Probably not an emerald though, as there were no mentions of anything weird in the emerald reserve Kaladin & co. were lugging around.

 

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I think that this is a very interesting theory, but I think that the destruction of the palace is for another (possibly additional) reason.  I think it was instead to retrieve the Cryptic that Elhokar summoned and that Hoid saved.  For what purpose they wanted it, I don't know.

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14 hours ago, FirstSelector said:

I think that this is a very interesting theory, but I think that the destruction of the palace is for another (possibly additional) reason.  I think it was instead to retrieve the Cryptic that Elhokar summoned and that Hoid saved.  For what purpose they wanted it, I don't know.

Perhaps there is something special about this Cryptic, as there is something special about Syl and Glys. The ones who come over are often very important individuals/spren.

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On 11/15/2017 at 1:38 AM, Windrunner said:

Gavilar's dark spheres have long been a subject of discussion. Some have considered the possibility that those spheres contain Unmade. Given what we've seen this book, I consider that to be unlikely.

Are you saying that sphere is another perfect gem then? Because otherwise the voidlight should have evaporated already. Well, that and regular spheres don't seem to hold voidlight judging how the everstorm passed Kaladin in the beginning and his spheres remained dun, but that's inconclusive, we didn't see anyone attempting to charge spheres in the everstorm. Still, it's suspicious it glows dark after so much time.

It could hold the missing unmade, the one that was lost to even myth and legends. I, too, was under the impression the fused in Kholinar were looking for the Cryptic Hoid rescued. I wonder if Ba-Ado-Mishram's disappearance and Honor's death are connected, but it doesn't fit well into the timeline we have.

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On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 6:38 PM, Windrunner said:

I'm making the assumption that [Gavilar] bonded the Stormfather because there is no evidence so far of a connection between Gavilar and the Nightwatcher and the Sibling remains elusive

The Stormfather sends visions to whomever he wants, it doesn't require a bond and Odium told Dalinar that he is the first to bond the Stormfather in his "current form" (i.e. since the Recreance / Death of Honor).

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On 11/15/2017 at 9:42 AM, Pagerunner said:

Ba-Ado-Mishram provided Forms and Voidlight during the False Desolation, as referenced in the stormlight archive epigraphs. (Or is that not a good name for the gemstone library in Urithiru?) Odium normally provided both, but Ba-Ado was able to fill in for a period of time, resulting in the war that was happening during the Feverstone Keep visions. With Odium returned through a proper Desolation, they can take on forms without Ba-Ado. But she still has a big role to play as a commander,

Exactly my thoughts as well!

 

1 hour ago, Aleksiel said:

Are you saying that sphere is another perfect gem then? Because otherwise the voidlight should have evaporated already. Well, that and regular spheres don't seem to hold voidlight judging how the everstorm passed Kaladin in the beginning and his spheres remained dun, but that's inconclusive, we didn't see anyone attempting to charge spheres in the everstorm. Still, it's suspicious it glows dark after so much time.

I would point out that we don't know how long the Voidlight was in those spheres. Gavilar has them on hand and gives them away casually. We've not seen Szeth's or Eshonai's since. It's possible that they've gone dun in the intervening period. In my mind, if they were perfect gems or Unmade trapped in a gem, Gavilar would not be handing them out like party favors, in my opinion. A regular old sphere full of Voidlight is much less valuable. 

 

1 hour ago, KidWayne said:

The Stormfather sends visions to whomever he wants, it doesn't require a bond and Odium told Dalinar that he is the first to bond the Stormfather in his "current form" (i.e. since the Recreance / Death of Honor).

The Stormfather specifically mentions what the visions are for.

Quote

I was given this leave: to choose those who would best be served by the visions. He paused, then grudgingly continued. To choose a Bondsmith.

Oathbringer chapter 28

Gavilar may not have gotten as far along in his bond, he may not have sworn any oaths yet, but there is no doubt in my mind that he was a nascent Bondsmith.

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If Odium and Ba-Ado-Mishram can connect directly with Singers as Odium does, what use would there be to keep Voidlight in spheres? We've seen no evidence that the fused need to be able to transport Voidlight, so what would be the point? How would you remove the Voidlight without removing the unmade from the prison? 

 

Plus, Aesudan basically tells us that Gavilar found Yalig-Nar.

Quote

“I continued your father’s work! I found the secret, Elhokar. Spren, ancient spren. You can bond with them!”

“Bond…” Elhokar’s mouth worked, as if he couldn’t understand the very word he spoke.

“Have you seen my Radiants?” Aesudan asked. She grinned. “The Queen’s Guard? I’ve done what your father could not. Oh, he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it. But I, I have solved the riddle.”

...

“I have outgrown you, Elhokar. I have taken the gemstone into me, and have harnessed Yelig-nar’s power.” Something started to twist around her, a black smoke, blown as if from an unseen wind.

84 The One You Can Save

There's also no reason to hide the other one from the Parshendi if it's just Voidlight. They've been given sphere A, why would gavilar care if they also then have sphere B that has been tied to a chain if it's just Voidlight?

Quote

“The Parshendi? That makes no sense.” Gavilar coughed, hand quivering, reaching toward his chest and fumbling at a pocket. He pulled out a small crystalline sphere tied to a chain. “You must take this. They must not get it.”

WoK Prologue

There are far too many inconsistencies for me to believe it's just Voidlight in those.

Edited by Fifth of Daybreak
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When Dalinar gives the Kings drop to Navani, she tells him she has seen something like it before only much smaller like a sphere. "Gavilar made it."

Chapter 121 Ideals page 1123 thanks @Fifth of Daybreak

Edited by FollowYourMuse
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24 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

When Dalinar gives the Kings drop to Navani, she tells him she has seen something like it before only much smaller like a sphere. "Gavilar made it."

 

Nice! Chapter 121 Ideals page 1123

 

18 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

So, how does gavilar make a perfect sphere out of a crystal?

Surges?

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1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Nice! Chapter 121 Ideals page 1123

 

Surges?

Thanks for locating that.

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Just now, FollowYourMuse said:

Thanks for locating that.

You located it, that's the hard part. Finding quotes on an ebook is easy once I know what to look for. All the kudos go to you. 

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Honor in is vision talk clearly of the everstorm.

“But why?” Dalinar asked. “Please. Why did they abandon their duty?” The figure seemed to study him. “I have said that cannot be of much help to you. The Night of Sorrows will come, and the True Desolation. The Everstorm.”

WotK Chapter 52 "highway of the sun"

 

and for the gavilar's sphere give to szeth

That tale always discomforted Szeth, as it reminded him of the strange black sphere Gavilar had given him. He’d hidden that carefully in Jah Keved. He didn’t know what it was, but he didn’t want to risk a master taking it from him.

WotK Chapter I-3 "The Glory of Ignorance"

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I really like Windrunner's theory. 

I think all captured Unmade were transferred to Kholinar when Urithiru was abandoned. Then one Alethi king (Sunmaker?) decided to free the Thrill to give him an edge. The empty ruby ended in Thaylenar. All other perfect gems were embedded in Kholinar's palace walls. 

The Unmade were released with the Everstorm, together with the parshmen. Getting hold of the perfect gems is still prio#1 for Odium's and the Fused because they are a danger for the Unmade. The location of Elokhar's spren was a coincidence in my opinion. 

I'm unsure about the black spheres. Possibilities:

- they contain lesser sprens like Ulim

- they are conjoined with perfect gems and act as a key for those perfect gems

- ...? 

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Interesting theory but I feel like some of the conversation has kind of poked holes in it. If Bo-Ado-Mishram (BAM) was trapped in a gemstone then why would they just be free to roam out onto Hoid's hand from the wall? Furthermore why would it be a Cryptic? That doesn't at all fit the established theme of the Unmade.

 

I think this evidence definitely points towards BAM being present in Kholinar, at least prior to Gavilar's assassination; his access to voidlight is a strong indicator. But I don't think the spren in the wall is one in the same. If you recall, it was trembling after escaping with Hoid. Why would it be scared of the Fused if it was their Unmade commander, and why would it go with Hoid rather than wait to be found by it's supposed own soldiers?

 

With Navani mentioning late in OB that Gavilar had made something similar to King's Drop, it sounds much more like it's prison was elsewhere. While I think the black spheres are spheres of voidlight, perhaps the one he gives to Szeth (notably on a chain instead of being loose) was BAM's prison. It was the only one he seemed scared of falling into the wrong hands. As Windrunner said in this thread, the rest he gave out "like party favors".

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As far as the Parshendi knew, Gavilar still had the black sphere, the same for the sons of honor. So naturally assumed he must have hidden it in the palace. Only the truthless knew it's true location.

 

i wonder if the sons of honor, in their search for the knights and void bringers, they discovered other bits of lore or items.

 

this unmade is a source of void light, I wonder if that can be used to trap other unmade.

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8 hours ago, RonaldinhoReagan said:

Interesting theory but I feel like some of the conversation has kind of poked holes in it. If Bo-Ado-Mishram (BAM) was trapped in a gemstone then why would they just be free to roam out onto Hoid's hand from the wall? Furthermore why would it be a Cryptic? That doesn't at all fit the established theme of the Unmade.

Sorry not sure where you are getting this? I don’t think anyone said the Spren Hoid took was Bo-Ado-Mishram. That was clearly Elhokar‘s spren. The OP is saying the fused are destroying the palace searching for Bo-Ado-Mishram hidden somewherethere. The bit with Hoid was just happenstance. 

I honestly thought that they were destroying the palace for the Spren too but now that I think of it would they go to that much trouble for a Spren? I don’t know maybe but I like the OPs theory. Makes a lot of sense why Kholinar was where they struck first. 

Edit: Also I think I remember there was a WoB that said something like that we will know for sure what the black sphere was after OB. I believe he said to ask him if we do not which I don’t feel like we do 100%. So if anyone sees him ask!

Edited by StormingTexan
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On 11/18/2017 at 8:26 AM, frozndevl said:

So, how does gavilar make a perfect sphere out of a crystal?

I bet that they are Parshendi gemhearts, but that is just random speculation.

I'm fifty-fifty on the black spheres being unmade/voidlight.

On one hand Aesudan says that Gavilar had found one Unmade, but he has two black spheres. So that seems to imply that the sphere's are not Unmade or that the queen didn't know all of Gavilar's secrets. Also, it seems strange that the Unmade were bound in those spheres before the plot actually explains how they got there in the first place, then have them be set free two books later.

On the other hand why would Gavilar only have two spheres of voidlight? Why stop at two? Why not a hundred and why bother keeping the second one away from the Parshendi?

On 11/18/2017 at 1:00 PM, Dryone_2 said:

Then one Alethi king (Sunmaker?) decided to free the Thrill to give him an edge.

I think it might be the opposite way around. The Thrill/Nergaoul seems to follow where ever that black sphere goes, until the third book anyway. When Gavilar had it, his armies in Alethkar felt the Thrill most strongly. Then, Szeth moves it to Jah Kevad and it is felt more strongly in that country. Mr. T mentions that the Thrill was moving away from Alethkar and towards Jah Keved in WoR. Though I can't remember the exact chapter, here is a line from the coppermind:

Quote

While in Vedenar, Dalinar inspects the remains of the armies. He learns from them that the Thrill grew stronger when fighting in the Civil War. Dalinar realizes that as he felt the Thrill less it became stronger for the people in Jah Kevad.

 

Edited by Varenus
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