[OB] Dalinar after Oathbringer

[Leyrann]

In Part 5 we see Dalinar managing to gather enough power (presumably through his bond with the Stormfather a.k.a. Honor's Cognitive Shadow?) to force Honor's Perpendicularity to manifest in Thaylen City. If he can gather that much power by saying an Ideal and defying Odium, then would it be possible for him to, however it may work, gather Honor's different splinters and actually take them all up together, thereby mending Honor's Splintering and becoming Honor? We know, after all, that Splintering can be undone.

This may even be what Honor means with "Unite them", though I would argue that is open for debate, as we also know that Honor could barely/not at all see into the future, though of course Cultivation might have seen it happening. We did get a RAFO on that, after all.

[Steeldancer]

He's very powerful. It was dope as frick. 

[Salkara]

Yeah, based on Odium taking Vargo that Dalinar Ascended... it sounds like Dalinar may be a mini-Honor now.

[Mulk]

Yeah, I immediately took that scene to mean Dalinar has Ascended because Odium recognized him as Honor.  "We killed you" or something like that was his response.  Whether he holds ALL of Honor's power that Tanavast held...I kinda doubt that; Stormfather probably retains those pieces of Honor that he is merged with, as an example.  But he has enough to cause Odium some real trouble.

[Kingsdaughter613]

I think creating the Perpendicularity was more a short term, (much weaker) Well of Ascension type burst. The difference being that Dalinar can repeat this effect. 

And it’s almost certainly one of those things Honor prevented Bondsmiths from doing while he lived.

[Seloun]

I think there may be a parallel between the dead spren and Honor's death. Specifically, I think Honor (and his Shard) was essentially the spren of the Oathpact bond with the Heralds. Honor apparently losing his mind near the Recreance is somewhat reminiscent with what happens with Syl and Pattern when Kaladin and Shallan stray from their oaths.

If this analogue is accurate, figuring out how to restore the dead KR spren may be the key to figuring out how to restore Honor (or at least his Shard). I think what Dalinar has right now is essentially the Honor Shard equivalent of a dead Shardblade - still powerful, but missing the essential nature of what really made it special.

[Leyrann]

32 minutes ago, Seloun said:

I think there may be a parallel between the dead spren and Honor's death. Specifically, I think Honor (and his Shard) was essentially the spren of the Oathpact bond with the Heralds. Honor apparently losing his mind near the Recreance is somewhat reminiscent with what happens with Syl and Pattern when Kaladin and Shallan stray from their oaths.

If this analogue is accurate, figuring out how to restore the dead KR spren may be the key to figuring out how to restore Honor (or at least his Shard). I think what Dalinar has right now is essentially the Honor Shard equivalent of a dead Shardblade - still powerful, but missing the essential nature of what really made it special.

We have WoB that Honor is Splintered by Odium though. Like, tons of WoBs.

[blackcatw81]

From the Coppermind we know that the Stormfather existed before the shattering of Adonalsium. Then Tanavast came to Roshar and [...] Rayse killed him, splintering Honor. As per Dalinar words in Oathbringer, now Dalinar is something different: Unity, made of Dalinar body and will (his part of Intent?), the Sliver of Honor (the Stormfather) he's still bonding to (soul), and part of the "mind" of the previous full Shard (the other part of Intent, Honor).

[Leyrann]

10 minutes ago, blackcatw81 said:

From the Coppermind we know that the Stormfather existed before the shattering of Adonalsium. Then Tanavast came to Roshar and [...] Rayse killed him, splintering Honor. As per Dalinar words in Oathbringer, now Dalinar is something different: Unity, made of Dalinar body and will (his part of Intent?), the Sliver of Honor (the Stormfather) he's still bonding to (soul), and part of the "mind" of the previous full Shard (the other part of Intent, Honor).

I wouldn't truly call Dalinar "something different", but I do think he indeed kind-of sorta ascended on a much smaller scale than what happens in Mistborn. I also touched upon it in this thread, and honestly it's my fault for creating two threads that are so similar...

I'd argue we're still looking at Dalinar here, but he's gotten a bit of a powerup.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Leyrann

[blackcatw81]

He expressly said so, but I can't write the quote now, sorry

[Leyrann]

He said "I am Unity", but I felt like that referred more to the moment and combining the Three Realms to form the Perpendicularity than anything else.

[Seloun]

On 11/16/2017 at 4:48 AM, Leyrann said:

We have WoB that Honor is Splintered by Odium though. Like, tons of WoBs.

Right, I don't suggest that the bond is what actually Splintered Honor (Odium also states that 'we killed you' to Dalinar while he's channeling the Perpendicularity). I'm suggesting that Honor may have been bonded with the Heralds in a similar fashion as the spren are bonded to the KR, and Honor's apparent loss of faculties during the Recreance may have been due to the same reason as e.g. Syl and Pattern's loss of faculties - their bondmates started to stray from their oaths.

Basically this is in reaction to 'why did Honor apparently go crazy during the Recreance?' I'm suggesting it's due to the Heralds, and that if it works like the spren bond, figuring out how to restore the spren bond might also lead to figuring out how to re-form Honor, or his Shard.

[bo.montier]

On 11/15/2017 at 7:45 AM, Salkara said:

Yeah, based on Odium taking Vargo that Dalinar Ascended... it sounds like Dalinar may be a mini-Honor now.

I guess I completely misunderstood this. When Odium said "Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend..." I took it to mean that Dalinar was not actually supposed to be the champion, but that this was part of the ruse, especially with the discussion of Renarin. I thought it meant that Renarin was going to be the eventual champion. 

Quote

Somebody had to make the difficult decisions. He slipped off his golden seat as Odium studied another portion of the Diagram. There. Behind where the bed had stood. A section of words that had faded from golden to black. What was that? As he drew near, Taravangian saw that the words were blacked out into eternity starting from this point on the wall. As if something had happened here. A ripple in what Odium could see... At its root, a name, Renarin Kholin.

"Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend," Odium said, stepping up behind Taravangian.

As I continue reading...Well I'm confused, I guess. I don't understand what Renarin has to do with all this since it's the only mention of him in the passage, and Taravangian goes on to bargain with Odium. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

11 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I guess I completely misunderstood this. When Odium said "Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend..." I took it to mean that Dalinar was not actually supposed to be the champion, but that this was part of the ruse, especially with the discussion of Renarin. I thought it meant that Renarin was going to be the eventual champion. 

As I continue reading...Well I'm confused, I guess. I don't understand what Renarin has to do with all this since it's the only mention of him in the passage, and Taravangian goes on to bargain with Odium. 

What it means is that Dalinar surprised everyone trying to predict events (Odium and Diagram) by Ascending. Not to full god, but likely to a Splinter. Odium always meant for Dalinar to be his champion. And it wouldn't be surprising if the Diagram also predicted the Blackthorn would be the champion. After all the Diagramists were having a fight over how wrong the Diagram was been recently just before the Everstorm hit. However, while inspecting the Diagram with Odium T saw that there was a part of the Diagram which Odium couldn't see. That part was related to Renarin.

[bo.montier]

6 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

What it means is that Dalinar surprised everyone trying to predict events (Odium and Diagram) by Ascending. Not to full god, but likely to a Splinter. Odium always meant for Dalinar to be his champion. And it wouldn't be surprising if the Diagram also predicted the Blackthorn would be the champion. After all the Diagramists were having a fight over how wrong the Diagram was been recently just before the Everstorm hit. However, while inspecting the Diagram with Odium T saw that there was a part of the Diagram which Odium couldn't see. That part was related to Renarin.

I just don't understand what Renarin had to do with it. He wasn't nearby during Dalinar's struggle with Odium; he wasn't in Dalinar's thoughts so far as I can remember. 
This passage confused me more than any other in the book. Does the fact that part of the diagram went black, instead of golden, mean that Odium couldn't see that part? Does that section remain accurate?

The next section...

Quote

Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.
He read them out loud. "you have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me."

I can't tell if that's from the darkened part of the diagram, from the description...

I don't know, this part, like I said, it's all just so confusing. Is Taravangian playing Odium using advice from the Diagram, or is he really throwing himself on Odium's side?

[WhiteLeeopard]

5 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I just don't understand what Renarin had to do with it. He wasn't nearby during Dalinar's struggle with Odium; he wasn't in Dalinar's thoughts so far as I can remember.

Renarin has nothing to do with Dalinar and the Ascension. What the passage means is that there is something about Renarin that the Diagram predicted that Odium is incapable of seing. What that may be, we don't know.

5 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I don't know, this part, like I said, it's all just so confusing. Is Taravangian playing Odium using advice from the Diagram, or is he really throwing himself on Odium's side?

T did indeed get on his knees before Odium, he just used the Diagram to be able to talk to Odium, because the Diagram predicted T would be so dumb on the day Odium talked to him that T would not be able to do even basic negotiations.

Edited November 17, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[MoS03]

Didn't Dalinar attract a metric ton of Gloryspren just before doing this? I thought of it all as him using the power of all those Spren to open the perpendicularity, by focusing, "binding", all the power all those Spren represented. Thus was enough to link all 3 realms, and so some of the pure power of the Spiritual was able to funnel through, much how the storms function, to refill gems, and allow passage across.

Like Dalinar had just brute forced the Cosmere out of sheer force of will, and the glory that came with that.

Edit: Dalinar was told he would be a Radiant without shards, plural. Maybe this is his trade-off for Plate? He gathered a LOT of Gloryspren.

Edited November 17, 2017 by MoS03

[C1-10P (Chopper)]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 4:26 AM, Seloun said:

Right, I don't suggest that the bond is what actually Splintered Honor (Odium also states that 'we killed you' to Dalinar while he's channeling the Perpendicularity). I'm suggesting that Honor may have been bonded with the Heralds in a similar fashion as the spren are bonded to the KR, and Honor's apparent loss of faculties during the Recreance may have been due to the same reason as e.g. Syl and Pattern's loss of faculties - their bondmates started to stray from their oaths.

Basically this is in reaction to 'why did Honor apparently go crazy during the Recreance?' I'm suggesting it's due to the Heralds, and that if it works like the spren bond, figuring out how to restore the spren bond might also lead to figuring out how to re-form Honor, or his Shard.

Hmm, reading this sparked a thought. "Odium states that 'we killed you' right..."  We???  Did Odium have help to kill Honor from another Shard?  Or...  could he be meaning 'we killed Adonalsium'?  Together those that became the shards splintered Adonalsium, 'killing' him.  Could Dalinar represent something even greater than a single shard?  Could "Unity" be a force that will seek to bring the shards back together?  "Unite Them!"  takes on a new meaning when it means the Shards of Adonalsium.

[Blazenella]

Something interesting on Dalinar not being Honor, and instead being Unity.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

We know <Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was> a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing... I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not.

 

#intent #shards

Unity is pretty much a synonym to Honors whole bonds shtick

[Leyrann]

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Variable said:

Something interesting on Dalinar not being Honor, and instead being Unity.

Unity is pretty much a synonym to Honors whole bonds shtick

Probably even more interesting, that would probably naturally make Unity (with Dalinar being the Vessel) inclined to take up other Shards; creating Unity.

Maybe that's Adonalsiums play all along; if he gets shattered, he'll just reassemble over time.

[Sunbringer]

I think that Dalinar is ascending to a new shard kinda like harmony, just combining bits and pieces of Cultivation and Odium from their influence on him, along with a large piece of Honor.

[Scion of the Mists]

12 hours ago, Sunbringer said:

I think that Dalinar is ascending to a new shard kinda like harmony, just combining bits and pieces of Cultivation and Odium from their influence on him, along with a large piece of Honor.

Cultivation and Odium are still whole Shards, and thus can't be "stolen" to make a new Shard.  The influences of Cultivation/Odium, could affect how Dalinar behaves as a Vessel, if he were to take up Honor, but there aren't bits and pieces of the other shards just lying around to be absorbed.  

[Tglassy]

I think the "Unite Them" that Dalinar keeps hearing is in reference to the pieces of Honor, not the people of Roshar or the nations or anything like that.  I think it's the same as when the statue pleaded to be united again.  Honor's shattered form is begging the Bondsmith to Unite Them.  

 

It also makes me wonder what Glory Spren are.  They come to people when they feel accomplishment, but they started coming to Dalinar while he was in the depths of his despair.  Odium was trying got swat them away.  It makes sense why they would come to him once he said his oath, but why would they come to Dalinar when his heart was breaking?  Shouldn't they have been shamespren?  

[Solarserpent]

With each oath sworn, the tighter a spren and radiant spiritweb becomes and I feel that if Dalinar is able to say the fifth oath then he will have full Connection to Honor.

[goody153]

15 minutes ago, Solarserpent said:

With each oath sworn, the tighter a spren and radiant spiritweb becomes and I feel that if Dalinar is able to say the fifth oath then he will have full Connection to Honor.

He already represent the name and power of honor ( Odium mentioning it, him ascending briefly and the perpendicularity thing made that clear ). He is literally the more important than the heralds( he can release Odium)