[OB] Mayalaran

[ScavellTane]

The adding of gemstones and sending the blade to shadesmar doesn't quite feel right to me. Pattern says that his kind have tried to revive the dead blades, if they're in the Physical Realm, how would the Cryptics access them? Granted we don't know when the spren began the exercise (before or after the gems were added).

When the other KR spren are not it blade form, they're in spren form. Could Renarin perhaps 'see' the dead blades spren form if he looks hard enough?

Edited November 23, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Quickbronze]

Two questions:

1) How do we know mental breakage is required to become a Surgebinder? 

2) If we do know, why is this not mentioned on the Coppermind pages for Surgebinding and the Nahel Bond?

[Aminar]

11 minutes ago, Crimson Not Blood said:

Two questions:

1) How do we know mental breakage is required to become a Surgebinder? 

2) If we do know, why is this not mentioned on the Coppermind pages for Surgebinding and the Nahel Bond?

Multiple in world confirmations and Word of Brandons. 

Relevent quote from Syl. "They all were." 

[Quickbronze]

Could you direct me to some relevant WoBs?

[Aminar]

Just now, Crimson Not Blood said:

Could you direct me to some relevant WoBs?

No. But search for snapping in this forum and there's a whole discussion on the similarities. Not sure what topic. 

[Leyrann]

41 minutes ago, Aminar said:

No. But search for snapping in this forum and there's a whole discussion on the similarities. Not sure what topic. 

I disagree with this, it is good that people ask for WoBs on things, as otherwise sometimes errors will become "common knowledge". I was actually surprised to find that this was the best WoB I could find on the subject (granted, I didn't go through every WoB, but I did go through all WoBs tagged "Nahel bond"):

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/78-shadows-of-self-boston-signing/#e5469

Quote

AndrewStirlingMacDonald (paraphrased)

Is being a little bit crazy a prerequisite to becoming a Knight Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, so, for many of the cosmere magics to work, you have to... it has to get into the soul somehow. Right? Sometimes you ram it in by spiking someone else's soul and ripping off a piece and sticking it into yours. Sometimes, it just seeps in the cracks. Sometimes the bond allows it to kind of bypass some of this, but it's usually traumatic experience. So crazy is not required, but there's got to be a place for the magic to go, to get in.

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Leyrann

[Fulminato]

there is the WoR dust jacket

The Knights Radiant must stand again.

The ancient oaths have at last been spoken; the spren return. Men seek that which was lost. I fear the struggle will destroy them.

It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit.  Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves.  They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures.

The Windrunner, lost in a shattered land, balanced upon the boundary between  vengeance and honor. The Lightweaver, slowly being consumed by her past, searching for the lie that she must become. The Bondsmith, born in blood and death, striving to rebuild what was destroyed. The Explorer, straddling the fates of two peoples, forced to  choose between slow death and a terrible betrayal of all she believes.

It is past time for them to awaken, for the Everstorm looms.

And the Assassin has arrived.

[Calderis]

@Aminar The ability to bond the blades, and therefore be able to dismiss and summon them was added to them accidentally due to someone adding the gemstone as ornamentation.

Navani discusses it with Dalinar when talking about a major discovery about Shardblades. "an accident of ornamentation." 

Prior to the gemstones being added to the blades, they were permanently physical objects that people had to carry around. From the time of the Recreance, to whenever this was discovered the blades were always in the physical. 

The blade bond is also a major source of the lighteyes in Vorin society. Considering the importance of that to Vorinism, the bonds had to have been well established in order for the Hierocracy to take hold, so it unsurprising that its far enough back in time to not be common knowledge to the characters in the book. 

 

[Aminar]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Aminar The ability to bond the blades, and therefore be able to dismiss and summon them was added to them accidentally due to someone adding the gemstone as ornamentation.

Navani discusses it with Dalinar when talking about a major discovery about Shardblades. "an accident of ornamentation." 

Prior to the gemstones being added to the blades, they were permanently physical objects that people had to carry around. From the time of the Recreance, to whenever this was discovered the blades were always in the physical. 

The blade bond is also a major source of the lighteyes in Vorin society. Considering the importance of that to Vorinism, the bonds had to have been well established in order for the Hierocracy to take hold, so it unsurprising that its far enough back in time to not be common knowledge to the characters in the book. 

 

Yes. I get that. But we're talking about why the gems are related to the suffering of the blade's spren. Everything you said isn't especially relevant to my point. 

[Fulminato]

18 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Yes. I get that. But we're talking about why the gems are related to the suffering of the blade's spren. Everything you said isn't especially relevant to my point. 

dalinar's oathbringer don't scream against him when he take after the bridgeman find it. "It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others."

the blade don't had any bond (sadeas is dead), but still the spren is in pain, and had enough awarness to remeber the honorable action of dalinar made that two day.

[Aminar]

2 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

dalinar's oathbringer don't scream against him when he take after the bridgeman find it. "It remembers the day you won it, and better the day you gave it up. It hates you—but less than it hates others."

the blade don't had any bond (sadeas is dead), but still the spren is in pain, and had enough awarness to remeber the honorable action of dalinar made that two day.

It's touching a radiant it once had a bond with. And still had a gem. That changes the circumstances entirely. I don't buy that every shardblade spent centuries suffering before the gem thing was discovered. They had to be reawakened. Breaking the gem should still remove a significant chunk of that pain. 

[Calderis]

48 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Yes. I get that. But we're talking about why the gems are related to the suffering of the blade's spren. Everything you said isn't especially relevant to my point. 

Summoning them returns them to the physical and causes the screams. 

Syl's quote is about returning them to a semblance of life. 

Prior to the gems being added, they were never able to be free of that "semblance of life," they were permanently trapped in that physical form. 

[digitalbusker]

I'm several pages out of sync with this thread, but I wanted to say: any discussion of Adolin's mental state that doesn't include PTSD is incomplete. True, he doesn't display classic symptoms (except his temper and impulsivity), but he's clearly familiar with the condition (his understanding of what Kaladin needed after Kholinar wasn't just from knowing Kal well), and realistically he shouldn't be "fine" after all he's been through.

The Radiants seem to be doing something of a Grand Tour of mental illnesses, so I'd expect to see PTSD represented at some point, even if not via Adolin (Jasnah clearly has some trauma related issues, for instance).

I also think we shouldn't assume the level of brokenness displayed by the first KR is a good gauge of the minimum level necessary. Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, Dalinar, et al are the low hanging fruit, the black swans that were easy for the spren to find without assistance from any mortal organization.

[Stairdweller]

I jumped in at the end, so forgive me if this was already said.  I think it might be relevant.  In chapter 14 of words of radiance, (about page  224) Adolin wins a blade from a man names Salinor.  He pulls the gem off the blade and crushes it, because Rawr! and then gives the blade to Renarin.  Renarin doesn't want to take it, and grimaces when he does take it.

 

I think this indicates that the blade was screaming at him.  There are a lot of things to consider - he didn't react much.  Is this because he's very stoic?  Or because he's not very Bonded yet?

 

 

[Calderis]

@Stairdweller I'm fairly sure that it's just the way Renarin is. He has been bonding Glys for a while. He grimaces similarly the first time he touches his Shardblade too. 

[AerionBFII]

I think Adolins plot is going somewhere; his Shard summoning time was shortened and i think it will be more that just the first guy to revive a Shardblade.

[Calderis]

Just for the purposes of argument, I wanted to bring up the point that "broken" does not necessarily have to mean what everyone always thinks it does. 

It just requires cracks in the Spiritweb. This can be achieved in multiple ways, the harshest of which was in TFE era Mistborn. 

And on that note, here's a non-spoilery bit from the HoA annotations on snapping.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e8025

Quote

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

Taking that into account, I think that the roller-coaster of emotions that Adolin went through in the 4 vs. 1 duel should be enough on its own, let alone everything else he's been through. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Calderis

[WhiteLeeopard]

Nope, he is far too stoic to snap by the everyday war, death and responsibility he faces. Only something truly earth-shaking will snap him. Meaning, he will clearly snap out of joy on his wedding night .

Edited November 24, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Watchcry]

On 11/14/2017 at 8:55 AM, Salkara said:

My personal theory is that he needs greater Connection to Maya in order to revive her. If only he were a duralumin compounder, it would be a cake walk.

Dalinar can fix it. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

@krmdzinklmfl

My grandfather went through Auschwitz after being deported in 1937. (That’s eight years under the Nazis.) 

That grandfather ended up crossing a war zone to get to the Americans, carrying his dead little brother on his back. He went through MUCH more than Kalladin ever did. Yet he remained a kind, good, stable person.

He built a life for himself. He married off his sisters and built a family of his own. Despite everything he retained his joy for life. He didn’t let the horrors he experienced destroy who he was. People didn’t realize what he went through until they saw the numbers on his arm. 

If spending eight years in hell, seeing your mother and baby brother die, your other brother surviving only to die after liberation, your father vanishing without a trace, and crossing a war zone isn’t considered enough emotional trauma to be broken enough for a Nahel bond, then I don’t think Kalladin deserves his.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[thegatorgirl00]

13 hours ago, Crimson Not Blood said:

2) If we do know, why is this not mentioned on the Coppermind pages for Surgebinding and the Nahel Bond?

Because there is a small number of Coppermind editors and a large number of things to do on the wiki, so sometimes things don't get updated right away. We always welcome new editors, if you want to come help out. 

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

Summoning them returns them to the physical and causes the screams. 

Syl's quote is about returning them to a semblance of life. 

Prior to the gems being added, they were never able to be free of that "semblance of life," they were permanently trapped in that physical form. 

To support your point, Maya screams when Adolin tries to summon her while they are in Shadesmar, but not at any other point they are there. 

Quote

“Smart,” Adolin said. He put his hand to the side to summon his own Shardblade.

The woman with the scratched eyes stretched her head toward him in an unnatural way, then screeched with a loud, piercing howl.

 

[KC Hammer]

While Adolin has shown a couple instances of remembering those who have been forgotten, in general I don't think he fits the personality required for an Edgedancer. Perhaps another order. Even if he revives Maya I don't think he will actually bond her. I have no backing for this just a feeling.

[Aleksiel]

12 minutes ago, KC Hammer said:

While Adolin has shown a couple instances of remembering those who have been forgotten, in general I don't think he fits the personality required for an Edgedancer. Perhaps another order. Even if he revives Maya I don't think he will actually bond her. I have no backing for this just a feeling.

Adolin is so refined he wears cologne in prison. He is a deadly warrior with supreme fashion sense.

All jokes aside, Adolin is a very caring person, whose main motivation is his love for his family. Only he stepped help the prostitute (Kal being the only other who thought about that), he is very friendly and caring towards his people and strangers. He fits the little we know about ED, surgebinders of the same order weren't copies of each other. 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

All jokes aside, Adolin is a very caring person, whose main motivation is his love for his family. Only he stepped help the prostitute (Kal being the only other who thought about that), he is very friendly and caring towards his people and strangers. He fits the little we know about ED, surgebinders of the same order weren't copies of each other. 

They weren't copies of each other. But if you read the sections of the in-world Words of Radiance, Adolin fits the description better than Lift. 

The things that He and Lift have in common are the things that fit the Oaths we've seen lift speak. As far as their demeanor, and poise... There's a reason that "Darkness" calls her a disgrace to her order.

Add in that the only thing that should be capable of reviving a dead Nahel Spren is a new bond... And I see no way for Maya to be reviving other than Adolin becoming an Edgedancer.

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

They weren't copies of each other. But if you read the sections of the in-world Words of Radiance, Adolin fits the description better than Lift. 

The things that He and Lift have in common are the things that fit the Oaths we've seen lift speak. As far as their demeanor, and poise... There's a reason that "Darkness" calls her a disgrace to her order.

Add in that the only thing that should be capable of reviving a dead Nahel Spren is a new bond... And I see no way for Maya to be reviving other than Adolin becoming an Edgedancer.

Yes, that's what I said - they weren't copies of each other. My post is about Adolin fitting  the little we know about them. I've been in favor of Adolin becoming ED and reviving his Blade for years, so there's some confusion regarding my post. Let me know how I can improve it, because we are basically saying the same thing.