[OB] Mayalaran

[Mulk]

The more likely explanation for Adolin's brokenness lies in his past - that it has something to do with being raised by Dalinar and losing his mother; it's far enough past that he's dealt with it and recovered enough to lead a normal life but that doesn't mean he wasn't broken.  Or perhaps being broken enough to get a Nahel bond is in the near future, when he finds out his dad is responsible for his mom's death.  Either way works.

Not all broken people suffer visibly. Nor do they all suffer as you'd expect.  I know an older woman who was racked by cancer, unable to walk anymore and in pain day by day. Was she broken enough for this? Probably.  Yet she never showed that she suffered. She greeted people as a friend, refused to discuss her pain and health, wanting instead to hear how you are, what's up with you, because her days were repetitive and loaded with pain.  She was that way up to the very end, always an utter joy to be around.  Just because you aren't angsty and emo doesn't mean you're not broken.  Some just learn to deal with it with more gracefully than others. I think she broke, but once she broke, she picked up the pieces and moved on from it - she was broken, but it did not define her.

[Aleksiel]

@PhineasGage I was thinking of a different quote, which I remember as Adolin saying he used to be jealous of Renarin for the attention he got, but I either can't find it or confused it with something else. You are right Adolin worships Dalinar, who said he hated his sons for a while after Eve's death - children tend to blame themselves for not being good enough, and being what his father wants him to be was part of Adolin's arch until recently where he says he isn't as good as Dalinar thinks he is, which also has a certain self-blame ring (if that's the right word) to it. Just because Adolin wasn't highprince doesn't mean he didn't have huge responsibilities for someone that age. About his relationships I mean come on, yes Renarin is his brother and his friend, but you sound like Hesina pretending she doesn't get what Kal meant when he said he had no friends - people need friends outside of their family, too. Not being able to make friends is worrisome. His alleged best friend joined the other side in the 4vs1, that's pretty harsh...

@Fulminato you are right, I edited it. Thanks!

Edited November 20, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Fulminato]

2 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

 His alleged best friend joined the other side in the 5vs1, that's pretty harsh...

4 vs 1

Relis, Elit, Abrobadar and Jakamav

[krmdzinklmfl]

1 hour ago, Aleksiel said:

And don't you guys who keep saying Adolin isn't broken enough. How do you measure that? Do you think someone should be near dysfunctional in order to qualify for radianthood? 

As long as someone isn't in a spiritual wheelchair, they aren't broken enough for me

[PhineasGage]

43 minutes ago, Mulk said:

I think she broke, but once she broke, she picked up the pieces and moved on from it - she was broken, but it did not define her

Not necessarily.Not sure how much experience you've had with end of life care, but in my experience (which is pretty reasonable) different people handle it differently. They will certainly have low days but end-of-life doesnt have to break you. In fact the most important thing you can do when working in end-of-life care is ensure that they maintain as normal a view of themselves as possible by maintaining dignity and managing pain vs maintaining awareness according to how the patient wants to manage it. Most people feel better if they have the opportunity to speak to loved ones and arrange things like wills and other financial issues so that they feel like they arent leaving things undone. Most importantly, are you broken if you put yourself back together? Doesn't that make you mended?

22 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

but you sound like Hesina pretending she doesn't get what Kal meant when he said he had no friends - people need friends outside of their family, too.

And he had them - but there is nothing wrong with being best friends with a sibling. He doesn't need many close friends because he knows his brother will always have his back. My point is that he can form lasting bonds with people. Renarin, in contrast seems to have no friends other than Adolin which is more concerning for him. Adolin though, I don't think he shows an inability to form lasting sensible relationships simply because he has friends with his brother. I think dismissing Hesina's point misses the fact that Kaladi  and Tien were  close and that shows an ability to connect with another person. Plenty of people arent close with their siblings, it isnt a given you have to be friends.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Ari said:

The issue is that Adolin has shown no obvious pain, or signs of trying to hide his pain, about any of these things. Compared with my earlier MB example, who had a less severe experience, but clearly suffered by it.

And again I bring up The Lopen. Obvious pain is not a requirement. Just because Adolin deals well does not mean he has not been broken. 

The list of all the things that he's gone through has been posted multiple times so I'm not going to repeat it again. 

Losing his mother as a teenager should be enough by itself. The Tower, which emotionally broke him enough to be the cause of his murdering Sadeas, should be enough by itself. 

It feels like people are minimizing what he's been through because we either haven't seen it directly, or they just don't want him to be a Radiant. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Calderis

[PhineasGage]

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And again I bring up The Lopen. Obvious pain is not a requirement.

Interestingly, I always thought Lopen was a candidate because he was obviously trying too hard. I never felt that about Adolin. 

That being said, I would prefer him to stay as a non-radiant because he is more interesting this way - it adds a sense of risk when he fights for example. I mean I doubt if anyone thought Kaladin would die but Adolin facing that thunderclast had genuine risk to it. I personally think it would be most interesting if he awakens Amaya but doesn't become a radiant -  either they work together in a mutual respect relationship but not one that forges a link between them that forces them both to behave in certain ways, or even if he awakens her and then she chooses to leave him anyway because she needs time to recover and get used to living again. 

Bear in mind, this isn't the first time we see something other than a scream from a dead blade - Oathbringer whimpers to Dalinar, and if he had understood it better as a distinct individual, perhaps it too would start waking up.

[Calderis]

Here's a WoB that is a big part of my reasoning. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6053

Quote

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond let's them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that'swhat's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

The deadeyes have had a chunk of their soul ripped out by the oath being broken. The Nahel bond is what is required to restore that chunk. This is precisely why it was "easier" for their Radiant to do. They didn't have to build a bond, they just had to fix what they did. 

But Maya... Maya is already showing improvement. For that to happen... It has to be a Nahel bond forming. Otherwise that chunk of her is still missing. Just treating the sword with respect and understanding it isn't enough. 

[thegatorgirl00]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Most importantly, are you broken if you put yourself back together? Doesn't that make you mended?

I guess the question is whether or not spirit web injuries can be healed on their own. I've always thought no. The spirit web has been described as the perfect or ideal version of something, and I think once something happens to break that perfection, you can never fully go back to how you were before. The trauma will always be a part of you in some way. We don't know much about the spirit realm though, so I could be wrong. 

 

55 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The deadeyes have had a chunk of their soul ripped out by the oath being broken. The Nahel bond is what is required to restore that chunk. This is precisely why it was "easier" for their Radiant to do. They didn't have to build a bond, they just had to fix what they did. 

Interesting. The Nahel bond is the mixing of two souls, and you need cracks as an entryway to start that process. I wonder if having a chunk missing on the spren's side would work as an entryway, so the mixing would start when a person's soul fills in that spot. 

[The Invested Beard]

7 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I guess the question is whether or not spirit web injuries can be healed on their own. I've always thought no. The spirit web has been described as the perfect or ideal version of something, and I think once something happens to break that perfection, you can never fully go back to how you were before. The trauma will always be a part of you in some way. We don't know much about the spirit realm though, so I could be wrong. 

 

Interesting. The Nahel bond is the mixing of two souls, and you need cracks as an entryway to start that process. I wonder if having a chunk missing on the spren's side would work as an entryway, so the mixing would start when a person's soul fills in that spot. 

Ooooh yeah all we've seen with bonds is a spren reaching out to a human to grow the bond. With Adolin it's been the opposite. He's been reaching out to his blade instead. Reverse Nahel Bond GO!

[Seerow]

14 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Ooooh yeah all we've seen with bonds is a spren reaching out to a human to grow the bond. With Adolin it's been the opposite. He's been reaching out to his blade instead. Reverse Nahel Bond GO!

Oh man now I'm imagining a world where instead of adolin getting super powers, Maya does instead. What do you expect would happen with a spren gaining more from the reverse bond? I am imagining her manifesting fully on the physical realm as she would appear in the cognitive. Could be potentially awesome.

[Darvys]

13 minutes ago, Seerow said:

Oh man now I'm imagining a world where instead of adolin getting super powers, Maya does instead. What do you expect would happen with a spren gaining more from the reverse bond? I am imagining her manifesting fully on the physical realm as she would appear in the cognitive. Could be potentially awesome.

Pff, limited imagination, i can already see Maya swinging her Adolinblade at fused and voidspren in Shadesmar.

[The Invested Beard]

9 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Pff, limited imagination, i can already see Maya swinging her Adolinblade at fused and voidspren in Shadesmar.

I would pay good money to see this happen. One second Adolin and Shallan are getting all smoochy in the PR, the next second he gets pulled into the CR and is being swung into an angerspren.

[thegatorgirl00]

21 minutes ago, Seerow said:

Oh man now I'm imagining a world where instead of adolin getting super powers, Maya does instead. What do you expect would happen with a spren gaining more from the reverse bond? I am imagining her manifesting fully on the physical realm as she would appear in the cognitive. Could be potentially awesome.

I don't think that's how it works. The Nahel bond is when two souls--one spren, one human--becoming one through understanding and living various Ideals. No matter how the process starts, the end result iand abilities granted s the same. 

 

12 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Pff, limited imagination, i can already see Maya swinging her Adolinblade at fused and voidspren in Shadesmar.

That is very fun to think about, though. 

[gbazz4]

On 11/17/2017 at 5:36 AM, jofwu said:

I'm NOT entirely sure how I feel about the idea of Adolin being a Knight Radiant...

But did anyone else notice how Adolin paused in the middle of his thunderclast battle to save a little boy?

If Adolin his headed towards Knighthood, I'm betting it's because amidst all of the god-like Radiant-tier battles we'll see him take time for the little people. Adolin's whole finale was basically, "I can't solve the big problems like them, but I can help a few."

I just got done with the book this morning. When i saw this thread and what was being said i immediately thought of that moment. In the middle of crashing through buildings fighting a thunderclast he stops to grab a little boy and save him. Maybe it is just wishful thinking because i am in the camp that wants him to revive his blade, but I thought that scene fit in with the Edgedancer ideal of in remembering those that have been forgotten. The little boy was all alone because nobody remembered him and yet Adolin did. 

It seems to me from various incidents that Adolin is moving toward reviving his blade and becoming an Edgedancer. In Shadesmar his blade attacks the fused trying to kill him, the blade tells him her name in the middle of the thunderclast battle, he saves the little boy left by himself to save him, and he helps save and rally the regular soldiers while the Radiants all take on huge bigger threats (to me the last two seem like they fit Edgedancer ideals through actions versus words). I thought it all just fit so that this is where he is heading as a character. 

[Dryone_2]

Adolin has a suppressed love/hate relationship to his father. When his mother was killed, he was old enough to realize that Dalinar was lying about the circumstances. Dalinars drinking and distance to his sons because they reminded him of Evi didn't help. As a consequence, Adolin has severe commitment phobia, as proven by his many short relationships and his try to break up with Shallan.

[Egomere]

On 15/11/2017 at 1:49 PM, lookingglass said:

As we all know "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead."

So all Adolin needs is a miracle gemstone pill and a trip to Shadesmar? He can do that... and it;s obvious that Maya is not fully dead anyways - I mean remeber the fact that she actively attacked one of the Fuzed in Shadesmar on her own free will to save Adolin from being cremling chow. 

[Cuda]

First post here, but I haven't seen anything in regards to Adolins souls being broken enough for a bond.  I think that reaction will be dealing with his fathers lies and memory of his mothers death.

Quote

"Assassinated by rebels.  Her death drove my father into a fury." Page 914.

Quote from Adolin, while in Shadesmar.  On my phone, and it's a long paragraph to quote.  Not sure it was ever addressed post-Dalinar ascending and he (Dalinar) accepting his role in what happened.  Seeing Adolins hard reaction just to the name Rathalas makes me think something more will happen on that front. We know he didn't spend a ton of time with the kids growing up, and them (Renarin/Adolin) being fed a lie about their mothers death will be a topic I hope they explore more.  If this has been discussed in more depth, I would appreciate a helpful link.

[gbazz4]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

And again I bring up The Lopen. Obvious pain is not a requirement. Just because Adolin deals well does not mean he has not been broken. 

The list of all the things that he's gone through has been posted multiple times so I'm not going to repeat it again. 

Losing his mother as a teenager should be enough by itself. The Tower, which emotionally broke him enough to be the cause of his murdering Sadeas, should be enough by itself. 

It feels like people are minimizing what he's been through because we either haven't seen it directly, or they just don't want him to be a Radiant. 

I tend to agree that there are different levels of how broken someone can be to become a KR. People have mentioned Adolin's mother dying while he was young, being abandoned at the tower and losing a lot of friends/soldiers, and his killing of Sadeas (it seemed to me in Oathbringer that he did feel conflicted about this but ultimately came to accept it at the end of the book, but i think he struggled there). I also think a few other items could be mentioned that i haven't really seen that might contribute to being broken. I would add in Elhokar dying in front of him in Kholinar and he suppressed it while traveling in Shadesmar and didn't let it out until he and Navani mourn together. I took it as him feeling partly responsible for not protecting Elhokar and that could contribute to brokenness (IIRC all of those key moments hinting at a growing bond with Maya happened after Elhokar died). I would also add in what appears to be him not knowing where he stands in the world. For his whole life he was at the top of the societal structure, he was the great duelist/soldier and people looked to him for leadership and depended on him. Now tons of people around him are becoming KR and he doesn't know how he fits in. It came off to me that he was struggling to an extend with his identity and his place which is something he hasn't really faced before. I think that can contribute to brokenness. Add those in with other things people have mentioned and i think cumulatively there is plenty of issues that would make Adolin broken, just maybe not to the extent of the Dalinar, Kaladin, or Shallan. 

11 hours ago, bleeder said:

I really hope Adolin saves Maya and becomes an Edgedancer. Just imagine the Adolin/Lift training montage.

I would love to see this. "Ok Lift, hold your shardblade like this...wait is that a shardfork?"

On 11/19/2017 at 0:34 PM, humanchaos said:

So I don't agree that you have to be "broken enough" to form the bond. Everyone jumps to Kalladin and Shallan, but Shallan obviously started her bond WAY before she was broken. She was a kid, life wasn't so bad, then her mom saw her already showing the signs, and then gets her friends to try to kill her, to which she was killed by pattern as a shardblade. And I also remember Syl referencing her remembering Kal pretty early on before Tien died. And what about Jasnah? Her recollection of the night her father died shows signs that the spren were already interested in her, and I wouldn't call her broken.

 

Regarding Jasnah i feel like there was some mention in Oathbringer of her being young and troubled as a child. I can't remember where i saw it but i thought there was a mention of her being locked away because of her trouble. Does anyone else remember reading something like this (Not sure if it was in a Dalinar, Jasnah, or Navani POV, but i think i remember something like this)? Maybe that is a hint that she has something in her past that broker her when she was younger. Mabye she learned to deal with whatever broke her a long time ago while the main characters we are seeing now are dealing with their brokenness because they are newer to radianthood than Jasnah is.

[Siaun Sanche]

On 11/15/2017 at 3:22 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

I think book 4 is planned to be set 1 year after the end of book 3, so this should give more time for the bond develop enough for Adolin to say the Words.

Is that official?

[Shuffel]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet. Adolin hears a faint screaming when he summons his blade and enters the palace near the end of part 4. The screaming is drowned out by the sound of war.

[Ari]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

And again I bring up The Lopen. Obvious pain is not a requirement. Just because Adolin deals well does not mean he has not been broken. 

The list of all the things that he's gone through has been posted multiple times so I'm not going to repeat it again. 

Losing his mother as a teenager should be enough by itself. The Tower, which emotionally broke him enough to be the cause of his murdering Sadeas, should be enough by itself. 

It feels like people are minimizing what he's been through because we either haven't seen it directly, or they just don't want him to be a Radiant. 

I'm open to it, but Brandon really does need to let us into his head a bit more when he's feeling that way if the pain is already there, because he never seems emotional about any of it.

Lopen you can tell he's overcompensating pretty easily, lol.

[Calcium]

I like the idea of Maya being restored by Adolin and him becoming an edgedancer. It may be cliche but people keep talking about character growth. That's good growth to become a Radiant so I don't see what the fuss is. Also, they need stacks more Radiants anyways. But he'd fit with his graceful movements being described a number of times as an Edgedancer. AND, he gets on with everyone. So he could and would fight for those no one else would. Like the boy at the end of OB, and fighting politically for Kaladin by volunteering to go to prison too. I think he fits, and his caring for people (especially seeing Maya in Shadesmere will make him care more about her) makes him the perfect character to revive a Blade and become an Edgedancer.

[mosaab]

Adolin becoming an Edgedancer has nothing to do with growth, and everything to do with this fandom thinking that if adolin becomes a radiant he is going to be more of a main character. 

And even if he is an edgedancer, what do you all think is going to happen? That he will have long stretches of chapters where he bonds,banter & discuss the nature of oath with his spren? That he will have training montages? That he will have epic saving the day moments?

It won't happen. He will always be secondary to lift.

And enough with self projecting into adolin about how he resent his father, he doesn't. 

Or how hard his life was, he  straight up admits to himself that his life has always been easy because he is the son of the black Thorne. 

 

 

 

[ericth]

I wonder if Adolin will manage to reawaken Maya but, not being broken or the normal Edgedancer type, will be some sort of hybrid.