[OB] Mayalaran

[lordofsoup]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@SLNC I've never been a fan of the "not broken enough" argument.

Kaladin and Shallan are extreme examples. So is Dalinar. 

Adolin has easily been through as much as Renarin. Just because he puts on a happy face for the world doesn't make his life "peachy." 

He lost his mother. Thousands of men at the Tower. Watched his father descend into a drunken mess. He snapped and killed Sadeas, which while it hasn't had social consequences, has still had mental ones. 

If he's not broken enough, then neither is Lopen, Lopen seems happy too. 

I agree.  If all the Radiants were as broken as Kaladin and Shallan, Urithiru would have been a giant psych ward

[Greywatch]

Quote

“They say you have to be broken,” Lopen said, glancing toward his spren, who made a few loops of excitement, then shot off to hide again. Lopen would need to go looking for the little guy—he did enjoy the game. “You know that tall woman, the king’s sister? The chortana with the glare that could break a Shardblade? She says that the power has to get into your soul somehow. So I’ve been trying to cry a lot, and moan about my life being so terrible, but I think the Stormfather knows I’m lying. Hard to act sad when you’re the Lopen.”

Lopen, seen right here before making his oaths (almost jokingly, just saying the words as explanation to another guy), makes me think that we shouldn't take the example of Kaladin, and Dalinar, and Shallan as the examples of minimum brokenness - if there even is such a thing. 

I don't know, trying to dissect peoples' psyches and saying "well, they don't seem sad or angry all the time, so that's probably not broken enough" seems like a misguided approach to what the spren mean when they talk about brokenness.

[humanchaos]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

To play devil's advocate:

I don't think Adolin broken enough (doesn't have enough cracks in his Spiritweb to be filled by a spren) to form a Nahel bond.

So I don't agree that you have to be "broken enough" to form the bond. Everyone jumps to Kalladin and Shallan, but Shallan obviously started her bond WAY before she was broken. She was a kid, life wasn't so bad, then her mom saw her already showing the signs, and then gets her friends to try to kill her, to which she was killed by pattern as a shardblade. And I also remember Syl referencing her remembering Kal pretty early on before Tien died. And what about Jasnah? Her recollection of the night her father died shows signs that the spren were already interested in her, and I wouldn't call her broken.

My theory is that being broken is only correlated to the bond, but not a causation or requirement. The most important aspect of the bond is the Ideals. The squires who had trouble gaining access to stormlight only had success after having a conversation that helped them acquire the correct mindset to follow the ideals.

The Ideals are what matters, though being "broken" and overcoming a deep struggle that correlates with the Ideal probably results in a more sure and resolute commitment and bond.

[Dryone_2]

59 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

If tou think about it his wounds are not actually that terrible considering the fights he gets himself into. Its just a reminder of how normal people, even the most skilled, would fare on those kind of fights. But you are right Adolin at this stage would gain a huge boost from the ability to draw stormlight just for the healing.I

My comment was partly tongue-in-cheek and basically from a story telling pov. Adolin had to be healed twice in the final battle and he still had to rest at the end. 

 

[Guest]

Just now, humanchaos said:

but Shallan obviously started her bond WAY before she was broken. She was a kid, life wasn't so bad

Shallan has a memory lapse from that time and her flashbacks begin when she is eleven. We don't know how she was considered broken.

Being broken matters, because there needs to be a way for the Investiture to seep through the Spiritweb of the individual. The Nahel bond fills those cracks. This is what happens when Allomancers snap btw. And is also the reason why many nobles beat their children during the Final Empire... to bring their possible Allomancers to snap. Though Harmony later changed how Snapping works in Era 2

[Darvys]

30 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Lopen, seen right here before making his oaths (almost jokingly, just saying the words as explanation to another guy), makes me think that we shouldn't take the example of Kaladin, and Dalinar, and Shallan as the examples of minimum brokenness - if there even is such a thing. 

The ideals are different, as long as your spren (Stormfather in case of Windrunners for whatever reason) deems that you are starting to live by them, you only need to say the words and they'll be accepted. You don't need to be in a specific mood to do that, note that Lopen tried to swear the oath previously in an epic setting but it wasn't accepted as according to the Stormfather he wasn't "quite ready".

All this talk about Adolin not being broken enough seems silly to me, old generations of Radiants numbered what ? a couple thousands ? What kind of horrors do you think they could have gone through living in the silver kingdoms under Honor's guidance ? Knowing that the surges in recruitement happened before the desolations, so the wars themselves weren't the trigger.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Darvys said:

All this talk about Adolin not being broken enough seems silly to me, old generations of Radiants numbered what ? a couple thousands ? What kind of horrors do you think they could have gone through living in the silver kingdoms under Honor's guidance ? Knowing that the surges in recruitement happened before the desolations, so the wars themselves weren't the trigger.

It is all about the Spiritweb (also called Spiritual DNA) being cracked, so the forming Nahel bond can fill in those cracks. Lopen took the path of being a squire to Kaladin... Maybe that somehow rewrites the sDNA of the individual to accept a Nahel bond? Kinda like burning Lerasium rewrites the sDNA to give Mistborn powers without needing the individual to Snap by establishing a direct connection to Preservation (now part of Harmony).

Edited November 19, 2017 by SLNC

[WhiteLeeopard]

7 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

So I don't agree that you have to be "broken enough" to form the bond. Everyone jumps to Kalladin and Shallan, but Shallan obviously started her bond WAY before she was broken. She was a kid, life wasn't so bad, then her mom saw her already showing the signs, and then gets her friends to try to kill her, to which she was killed by pattern as a shardblade. And I also remember Syl referencing her remembering Kal pretty early on before Tien died. And what about Jasnah? Her recollection of the night her father died shows signs that the spren were already interested in her, and I wouldn't call her broken.

My theory is that being broken is only correlated to the bond, but not a causation or requirement. The most important aspect of the bond is the Ideals. The squires who had trouble gaining access to stormlight only had success after having a conversation that helped them acquire the correct mindset to follow the ideals.

The Ideals are what matters, though being "broken" and overcoming a deep struggle that correlates with the Ideal probably results in a more sure and resolute commitment and bond.

No. The brokenness isn't a theory, its a known fact. Its not just for SA either, its for the whole cosmere. You need to be broken so the investure can enter your soul.

Quote

Questioner

Why, in your books, are your characters so often, per say - before they get the powers they become broken first.

Brandon Sanderson

There is a narrative reason and an in-world reason. The narrative reason is characters in pain are more interesting to write about. This is just a rule of thumb for writing. Find the person whose in the most trouble, things are going the worst for and that's generally your easiest character. In the stories, the actual Cosmere, the mechanics of the magic finds, this is only one way to describe it - its not the only way - might not be one hundred per cent accurate but it's an easy metaphor, cracks in the soul allow the magic to seep in and that's how you end up with a lot of the different magic systems.

 

[humanchaos]

5 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

No. The brokenness isn't a theory, its a known fact. Its not just for SA either, its for the whole cosmere. You need to be broken so the investure can enter your soul.

 

Your quote unfortunately includes the phrase from Brandon "this is only one way to describe it - its not the only way - might not be one hundred percent accurate"

The supporting evidence to the contrary of the need to be broken lies in a few places. One of them is Warbreaker. Breathe is breathe and can be transferred to anybody regardless, which would assume a complete disconnect with the need to be broken. Also, the bead that was used to make the first mistborns could be used on anybody and did not require anyone to snap. And again, the characters in White Sand seem to be born with an innate ability and are tested as children to see if they are able to, and how powerful they will be.

And I can't get past the fact that Shallan killed her mom as a child with pattern as a shardblade. Her dad didn't get bad until after the death of her mom, who had no reason to want Shallan dead until AFTER she started exhibiting her powers.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, humanchaos said:

Your quote unfortunately includes the phrase from Brandon "this is only one way to describe it - its not the only way - might not be one hundred percent accurate"

The Spiritual DNA is dependent of the home Shardworld of the individual. The ability to give Breath seems to be built into the Nalthian's default Spiritual DNA.

There are other ways to manipulate one's Spiritual DNA (like burning Lerasium instead of Snapping), but manifesting Investiture is dependent on having certain sequences in the sDNA. Hemalurgy btw works by ripping out certain patches of sDNA from one individual and grafting it into the sDNA of another.

[WhiteLeeopard]

5 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

Your quote unfortunately includes the phrase from Brandon "this is only one way to describe it - its not the only way - might not be one hundred percent accurate"

The supporting evidence to the contrary of the need to be broken lies in a few places. One of them is Warbreaker. Breathe is breathe and can be transferred to anybody regardless, which would assume a complete disconnect with the need to be broken. Also, the bead that was used to make the first mistborns could be used on anybody and did not require anyone to snap. And again, the characters in White Sand seem to be born with an innate ability and are tested as children to see if they are able to, and how powerful they will be.

And I can't get past the fact that Shallan killed her mom as a child with pattern as a shardblade. Her dad didn't get bad until after the death of her mom, who had no reason to want Shallan dead until AFTER she started exhibiting her powers.

Quote

IronCaf

What other magic systems - because it seems unique from what we have seen - what other magic systems have that same, kind of, "If you use it a lot it gets better?"

Brandon Sanderson

So, imagine this way-- You're making a metaphor-- It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the flow come through, and the investiture comes in. 

IronCaf

So it seems that in Allomancy, it seems to maybe enhance those cracks--

Brandon Sanderson

It can open the cracks more.

IronCaf

Are there other magic systems like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Quote

Jeremy (paraphrased)

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others.

Quote

PallonianFire

If a Shard were to heal the cracks in someone's spiritweb, like Sazed did with Spook, and that person who was getting healed has a Nahel bond, would that break the bond?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Nahel bond is already filling in those cracks, so you would have to rip it off to put something else in there.

Quote

KingSloth

Doesn't all 'extra' investiture require a cracked soul? How are Nalthians born with extra breath, if so?

Brandon Sanderson

No. The Scadrians have extra investiture too, on a lesser scale.

 

[Calderis]

@humanchaos have a couple WoBs.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3620

Quote

Faera

So in Mistborn, you have to be 'snapped' to awaken allomantic abilities. Similarly in Stormlight, you have to be 'broken' to release surgebinding powers.

Are there any connections between these two requirements? Does it have anything to do with the 3 realms?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes and yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/145/#e2716

Quote

Jeremy (paraphrased)

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others.

As for breath, it is an exception to the rule. One I specifically asked Brandon about a couple nights ago, but am unable to share my responses on yet. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7932

Quote

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how...

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are considered one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Questioner 2

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they just get the breath.

Rhandric

That's one thing that stood out to me in your magic systems, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some form of snapping to occur, and that's unique...

Brandon Sanderson

Not all of them because, um, let's see...

Questioner 3

BioChroma doesn't.

Brandon Sanderson

BioChroma does not requires snapping.

Rhandric

Actually wait, is there an active magic system on Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call magic. Do spirits coming back to life count as magic? It's science to them, but it's goofy science.

 

[humanchaos]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@humanchaos have a couple WoBs.

Thanks for supplying the quotes there. I'll concede that it does seem pretty clear the the nahel bond requires cracks in the spritweb for the spren to fill. The Shallan story just still seems odd to me as we know it now. It just seems like she started manifesting as a child, and all of the brokenness we see now came after the bond had already been established.

[FollowYourMuse]

 

17 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

 

And I can't get past the fact that Shallan killed her mom as a child with pattern as a shardblade. Her dad didn't get bad until after the death of her mom, who had no reason to want Shallan dead until AFTER she started exhibiting her powers.

2 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

Thanks for supplying the quotes there. I'll concede that it does seem pretty clear the the nahel bond requires cracks in the spritweb for the spren to fill. The Shallan story just still seems odd to me as we know it now. It just seems like she started manifesting as a child, and all of the brokenness we see now came after the bond had already been established.

Yes what we have seen is all related to from the time she killed her mother and her reforming her bond with Pattern. But I think we do not know what Shallans life or experiences were before that and it is quite possible it was not as happy as the few mentions we get of it. 

[Aleksiel]

8 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

Thanks for supplying the quotes there. I'll concede that it does seem pretty clear the the nahel bond requires cracks in the spritweb for the spren to fill. The Shallan story just still seems odd to me as we know it now. It just seems like she started manifesting as a child, and all of the brokenness we see now came after the bond had already been established.

While Shallan was creating that perfect image when talking to Hoid as a small child, the one with all her family happy around her, she said 'mother loves me'. She did not explicitly say this for anyone else. Feeling unloved by your own mother will be soul breaking for anyone. We are yet to see any flashback before her mother tried to murder her and Shallan continues to avoid facing painful memories.

[humanchaos]

5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

While Shallan was creating that perfect image when talking to Hoid as a small child, the one with all her family happy around her, she said 'mother loves me'. She did not explicitly say this for anyone else. Feeling unloved by your own mother will be soul breaking for anyone. We are yet to see any flashback before her mother tried to murder her and Shallan continues to avoid facing painful memories.

Yeah, I think there just some details we are missing. If Brandon ever makes it out my way for a book signing I'm gonna ask him about this.

[Aleksiel]

Just now, humanchaos said:

Yeah, I think there just some details we are missing. If Brandon ever makes it out my way for a book signing I'm gonna ask him about this.

I thought we'd learn about it in her book, so I was initially dissatisfied with WoR for not going far back enough for us to know what broke Shallan, but it befits her character. She's working on her painful memories in reverse chronological order - first her father's murder, then her mother's and we'll see what was before that at a later point. You are right that we are missing very important details, thing is Shallan might be missing those, too.

 

 

On a different, on-topic note, I've been a fan of Adolin revives his Blade theory for years, so you all can imagine how happy all Maya related moments made me, I think next book will be the one to make it canon. I did not expect the scratched eye at all, at first I thought this was somehow Ash. And seeing other spren keeping deadeyes caged to not wander off to their body's locations, this was so... I don't even know how to express what it made me feel. It made Recreance horrible on a whole new level for me. 

[humanchaos]

3 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

 I think next book will be the one to make it canon. 

I agree. I think that the part with him summoning Maya as a sharblade in under 10 heartbeats was huge! Though it happening right at the end of the battle might have pushed it out of his mind to question it. I also wonder, if he summons Maya again, will it remain the same? was it only a special case for her to come in less then 10, or will she now always come in less the 10? If it is the later, then I assume during the next book Adolin will notice it, and it will become a topic of research and be a main plot point. If it was only a special case, then the revival will possibly be more of a surprise moment.

[AbsentKeeper]

13 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

I agree. I think that the part with him summoning Maya as a sharblade in under 10 heartbeats was huge! Though it happening right at the end of the battle might have pushed it out of his mind to question it. I also wonder, if he summons Maya again, will it remain the same? was it only a special case for her to come in less then 10, or will she now always come in less the 10? If it is the later, then I assume during the next book Adolin will notice it, and it will become a topic of research and be a main plot point. If it was only a special case, then the revival will possibly be more of a surprise moment.

I think that he actually summons Maya in under ten heartbeats several times during that fight.

Quote

Adolin dodged to the side, but the monster’s palm smashed the ground with such force that Adolin’s boots left the ground momentarily. He dismissed Maya as he fell, then rolled.
He came up puffing on one knee with his hand out, summoning Maya again. 

There's no way that ten heartbeats passed between him getting knocked into the air and rolling back to his feet. If he had dawdled that long, the Thunderclast would have killed him.

I think he'll realize what happened fairly easily once he thinks about it.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, humanchaos said:

Thanks for supplying the quotes there. I'll concede that it does seem pretty clear the the nahel bond requires cracks in the spritweb for the spren to fill. The Shallan story just still seems odd to me as we know it now. It just seems like she started manifesting as a child, and all of the brokenness we see now came after the bond had already been established.

Yeah. This is precisely why I have said that the image in her mind that her life before her mother's death was sunshine and happiness is her deepest and most strongly rooted lie. 

Every one of her brothers is broken in some way. Balat is hurts things, Jushu compulsively gambles, Wikim was suicidal, and Heleran was at least attempting to join the Skybreakers 

Add in that her mother was willing to kill her, and that everyone was perfectly willing to accept the story that Lin killed his wife and lover in a rage... 

Yeah. Picture perfect family right there. Shallan was absolutely sheltered as a kid. 

[Darvys]

There's something else about Maya, i don't know if i'm reading too much into the line, but does the blade now glow as well ?

"Maya dropped into his hand. Though he was covered in dust, she still shone bright."

Was the sun hidden by the storm at this point ? If not, it could be reflection, don't know.

[Dryone_2]

I think when he ends on one knee, he starts summoning Maya. It does not mean that she falls into his hand immediately. 

After that part the text at least once explicitly states that it takes 10 hesrtbeats for Maya to appear. Then seven seconds, then she warns him about a Fused attack while she is dismissed, then he starts counting but blacks out when the roof crashes, then Maya talks to him again, he says "I'm trying to stand up, Maya! Storming blade". After that it is not said how long it takes to summon Maya, but then Renarin arrives and Adolin asks Maya to go with Hrdalm for now, and she reluctantly agrees. 

I think Maya wakes at the seven seconds moment and then gains the ability to talk to Adolin even when she is not summoned. 

Also see Darvys comment above: Maya shines bright after the seven seconds summons. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Dryone_2

[Aleksiel]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yeah. This is precisely why I have said that the image in her mind that her life before her mother's death was sunshine and happiness is her deepest and most strongly rooted lie. 

She does not think her life was amazing up until her mother tried to kill her. That was an illusion and she recognized it as such:

Quote

It is beautiful because it could have been. It should have been.

You are right to point out it's a lie, but I disagree that she's unaware of that.

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

She does not think her life was amazing up until her mother tried to kill her. That was an illusion and she recognized it as such:

You are right to point out it's a lie, but I disagree that she's unaware of that.

The issue is that she tells herself that's what should have been if her mother lived. We have seen no reference, ever, to what her life was like before, other than from pattern speaking of her illusions. And in those cases, she went dissociative and blanked out. 

[Dryone_2]

Don't you think that Shallan's state of mind is a little OT and might better be discussed in another thread?