[OB] Mayalaran

[CrazyRioter]

I'd also like to note that Adolin identified her as being made of dead vines after having seen living cultivationspren in Celebrant. So he might also have simply misinterpreted her appearance due to not knowing what kind of spren she is and what they look like when they're alive.

[Jaelin]

On 10/30/2018 at 4:26 AM, NoiseSpren said:

Yes, there is *reasonable possibility*.

You are right.

But I personaly think it is improbable. At least without Sja-anat or Mother interaction. But considering this option...

Mother or at least Nightwatcher would be pleased - Adolin reviving cultivationspren... Yes definitively pleased. So, interaction...

Just dreaming.

Considering it all: yes it is possible, but we don't know complexity or requirements for such thing.

I'm not sure probability matters. Brandon will write the story he wants to write (and I am sure it will be enjoyable whatever it is). 

In my opinion speculation like this is about considering possibilities and exploring them. Right now we can only consider "what if"s. 

If Mayalaran revives as a cultivation spren I expect there will be a lot of changes in opinion. Cultivation will no doubt be happy. Spren society will be overjoyed. Although it would be questionable if other shardblade wielders will go to the same process that Adolin is going through. 

If she revives as something else, a whole lot of different questions would be raised. What would this mean to spren socIety. How would they react to the "dead" coming back as a "different person". 

What if Adolin has to give up some of himself to bring back Maya? I think he would do it. But what would that mean? I suspect that act of sacrifice would be significant in reshaping Maya. I think that if this were the route chosen it would be supportive of a transformation process. 

 

On 10/30/2018 at 4:42 AM, CrazyRioter said:

I'd also like to note that Adolin identified her as being made of dead vines after having seen living cultivationspren in Celebrant. So he might also have simply misinterpreted her appearance due to not knowing what kind of spren she is and what they look like when they're alive.

I don't think that interpretation is correct. I found another reference about Maya's appearance at first that I missed previously. 

Quote

Another spren stood beside her, with ashen brown features that seemed to be made of tight cords, the thickness of hair. She wore ragged clothing, and her eyes had been scratched out, like a canvas that someone had taken a knife to.

This description is too detailed to be explained as confusion on Adolin's part. I don't see any way you could misinterpret vines as "tight cords the thickness of hair". Instead we have evidence of Maya's "physical" form actively changing during her travel in shadesmar with Adolin. 

As I noted earlier, what this means is inconclusive. It could just be that Adolin is " healing" Maya back to her original form. Or, it could be that she is becoming something else. The only thing we can take from this for certain is that contact with Adolin is somehow changing Maya's "physical" form. 

[Rakei]

That's actually rather interesting and it might be the other way around.

So it could be that the Recreance and the breaking of oaths ripped identity from the spren, we haven't seen another deadeye to contrast and compare I think? So if they all become similar, with "ragged clothing" it could be that Mayalaran is becoming a cultivationspren in response to Adolin. Which could mean that all the dead Blades are like blank slates onto which the bearer needs to pour identity so they can gain life anew.

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Rakei said:

That's actually rather interesting and it might be the other way around.

So it could be that the Recreance and the breaking of oaths ripped identity from the spren, we haven't seen another deadeye to contrast and compare I think? So if they all become similar, with "ragged clothing" it could be that Mayalaran is becoming a cultivationspren in response to Adolin. Which could mean that all the dead Blades are like blank slates onto which the bearer needs to pour identity so they can gain life anew.

I doubt it, we know that she was a cultivationspren before. This WoB is pre-OB

Quote

Kaladin al'Thor

I noticed my last time reading Words of Radiance that there were several times-- vines that were on Adolin's shardblade as he summoned it. So I was wondering if maybe the Radiant who used it had was an Edgedancer?

Brandon Sanderson

You are right.

Kaladin al'Thor

You mentioned before that it would be possible to revive a dead shard[blade], but it would be very difficult--

Brandon Sanderson

Very difficult.

Kaladin al'Thor

Like I think what you said is that it would have to be the same person that broke the bond?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be the-- Yeah.

Kaladin al'Thor

So if it was an Edgedancer's blade if he made those same oaths could potentially he…

Brandon Sanderson

That would most likely not be enough. Something else would have to happen. Good guess though.

source

 

[Jaelin]

16 minutes ago, Rakei said:

That's actually rather interesting and it might be the other way around.

So it could be that the Recreance and the breaking of oaths ripped identity from the spren, we haven't seen another deadeye to contrast and compare I think? So if they all become similar, with "ragged clothing" it could be that Mayalaran is becoming a cultivationspren in response to Adolin. Which could mean that all the dead Blades are like blank slates onto which the bearer needs to pour identity so they can gain life anew.

That's a possibility too. However, I think it would be a very strange coincidence that Maya was a Cultivation spren and just happened to find someone who would make her into a Cultivation spren again.

I think that if she ends up as a cultivation spren the more straightforward explanation is that Adolin's investment in her helped her to recover herself. If she becomes something different, then she is a product of what she once was and Adolin's investment. 

[Solant]

On 10/30/2018 at 8:24 PM, Jaelin said:

That's a possibility too. However, I think it would be a very strange coincidence that Maya was a Cultivation spren and just happened to find someone who would make her into a Cultivation spren again.

Which is why, over the entire history of dead shard blades no-one has ever revived one to our knowledge. 

It also seems like an eventuality that it will happen to someone. That someone possessing a shard blade would not only be KR material, but also align with the ideals of the order of the dead blade, and accidentally or otherwise initiate the process to revive its spren. Considering all the blades in the world, and all the hands those blades have passed through, it has to happen eventually, if in fact that is what is happening now.

[Jaelin]

3 hours ago, Solant said:

Which is why, over the entire history of dead shard blades no-one has ever revived one to our knowledge. 

It also seems like an eventuality that it will happen to someone. That someone possessing a shard blade would not only be KR material, but also align with the ideals of the order of the dead blade, and accidentally or otherwise initiate the process to revive its spren. Considering all the blades in the world, and all the hands those blades have passed through, it has to happen eventually, if in fact that is what is happening now.

Yeah... like I said:

On ‎31‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:24 AM, Jaelin said:

I think that if she ends up as a cultivation spren the more straightforward explanation is that Adolin's investment in her helped her to recover herself.

The post I was responding to however was suggesting (as I understand it) that she had lost her entire identity and that she was becoming a cultivation spren because of Adolin's impact.

Of course, I am not wholly convinced that she is necessarily becoming a Cultivation spren again. She might be, but she might be changing into something else. I've already pointed out that changes in a Spren's mental facilities are reflected in their "physical" representation (the change from strands of hair/cloth to vines). It follows that were Mayalaram's identity to be changed by Adolin's investment in her then she may well change her "physical" nature to reflect that change.

This is possible because as we know, that much of their identity and mind has been ripped out by the severing of the Nahel bond:

Quote

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

That and as far as we know, no other shardbearer (ie: dead spren shardblade) has been to Shadesmar, met with their spren directly and understood the nature of the weapon that they carry.

So, while it *could* be that Adolin is just the right person to bond an edgedancer blade (and yes, Brandon has said that she would bond him if alive; but I think that could be taken in a few ways)  it could also be that the regeneration of Mayalaran is principally because, due to their shared experiences, she is willing to let him "fill the gaps" in her identity with parts of his; which may mean that she instead becomes something different. Possibly another type of spren entirely, as her mental composition and/or attitudes are no longer in keeping with a Cultivationspren.

I prefer the latter course because it is a lot less deus ex machina coincidence (ie: "oh, he just happened to win the exact right shardblade in some random duel many years ago to fit his personality") and instead is more an organic growth of the relationship, stemming from the respect that he has shown her over the years.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Jaelin

[Calderis]

As my participation in the 18 pages of this thread have shown, I have feelings regarding this topic.  So I apologize of this is long winded, but it's me so... 

Adolin happening to receive the right type of blade isn't Deus Ex Machina. It's just chance. Those aren't the same thing. There are 8 types of blades available to be had. No Skybreaker blades, because they didn't take part, and no bondsmith blades obviously. So assuming roughly equal numbers that's a 12.5% chance of your blade being an Edgedancer blade. Not terribly good, but not anywhere near an unreasonable longshot either. 

As far as Maya's healing goes... No, I really don't think she can become something else than a Cultivationspren. I don't think the bond works that way. Let me explain. 

Yes, the bond "ripped something out of them" but I don't think that's what it sounds like. I don't think something is actually missing, so much as it's been repurposed,and left them in a state that they can't function. Spren slowly merge with their radiant Spiritually. 

Quote

yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

source

What I think this accomplishes, for a spren to become a blade, is that essentially the spren is piggybacking on the Radiants connection to the Physical Realm, which allows them to manifest as a weapon. We have yet to see a blade appear or change shape when not in physical contact with their Radiant. Syl rushes to Kaladin  a couple of times in anticipation of being summoned. I don't think it's possible for them to simply become fully physical on their own... And yet Shardblade are, and were never meant to be. 

What I think the bond breaking did to them, in my opinion, is left them in a state where they are supposed to have a Physical Aspect available, but without the Investiture necessary to do so. So their innate investiture has been redistributed, allow for physical manifestation at the cost of the Cognitive being that they are by nature. 

Even in the Cognitive Realm, when dismissed, this reallocation would remain. Just as a person there physically can step back into the Physical Realm while a Cognitive Shadow cannot, because they lack that Connection, the Spren are still forced to have the Connection (and the ability to be summoned back) even when it is not being utilized. 

Restoring a bond with a person should give them back a secondary physical aspect with which to manifest and allow the Investiture that they are composed of to return to their Cognitive Aspect where it belongs so that they can function properly.

Basically, I think what was ripped out with the bond itself, was that secondary Connection. This shouldn't require anything to be put into the spren from a new bond other than what was there in the first one. I don't think any piece of them actually remained in the radiant to which they were bonded.

In order for the spren to be effectively changed would require, again in my opinion, more Investiture than a human has to give. 

[+Extesian]

I generally avoid this thread because it's less about realmatics than personalities, and because adolin is a nice guy who I don't find particularly interesting nor care much about, but that's a really boss post @Calderis .

I'll have to think about whether i agree realmatically, but it's a cool way to look at it. I'm tentatively inclined to agree. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Extesian
Felt the need to emphasize my ambivalence to Adolin ;)

[CrazyRioter]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

In order for the spren to be effectively changed would require, again in my opinion, more Investiture than a human has to give. 

 

I agree. I don't think a human soul has the power to add enough Investiture to a being of pure Investiture to change its nature in a significant way. Spren do become somewhat more human-like in thought processes when bonded, but that does not, and cannot change their basic nature.

[cantabile21]

Just wanted to note that after all this time, the argument has finally shifted from "Is Adolin good enough / broken enough to be a Radiant?" to "What Order of Radiant should Adolin be?" And when Brandon first agreed that Maya would have wanted to bond with Adolin anyway, that made my day...

Jaelin, your theory is intriguing, and i do like the idea of it. It opens up a whole new world of possibilities not just for Adolin and Maya's character development, but for the general worldbuilding of Stormlight Archive. i agree that with the world in such turmoil, who's to say that such changes couldn't happen? We have a long time before we'll get canon confirmation of any of our theories, so we might as well pass the time with... more theories. Some will be proven true, some won't, and Brandon could still blow us away with something none of us ever expected. Anyway, it's fiction, and it's fun! 

i personally see Adolin as an Edgedancer, and would love to see how he might come to lead the Edgedancer Order eventually. He's a natural leader and people look up to him, and yet he has this personal touch and connection with the individual that a big picture leader like Dalinar may not have. Lift has the personal connection with the individual in spades, but she is not a leader. 

[Rakei]

I agree, I find it very sad that we would have an argument about is "Adolin good enough/broken enough to be a Radiant?" especially with what Oathbringer revealed about the past he has lived. I think perhaps people are confused about what it means to be broken?

We've been shown over and over that there doesn't have to be any outward sign of it like both Shallan and Jashnah are for the most part outwardly fine, the same goes for the Bridgemen now. If as I suspect you only need one trauma to get broken and not necessarily a clinically identifiable condition, Adolin fits the bill. He's just been molded by the patriarchal structure not to show exactly what's wrong with him. 

How is he broken? We for starters for most of his youth and young adult life his father was an addict and a drunk with quick shifts in temper. Adolin was the older of the two children with a mother who was considered not a good Alethi woman, so he'd have to shoulder a lot of responsibility, especially after Evi's death which also would have come as a trauma to him, losing his mother to what he believes are assassins and having to deal with Dalinars drinking and trying to maintain outward calm and dealing with being in the spotlight as well.

We're never shown how Adolin feels about these things except once when he's in a heated argument with was it Gavilar and Elhokar? Elhokar and Jashnah? anyway about his drinking which Dalinar overhears in the past. But we haven't seen any of those things from Adolins PoV.

It's possible that one could leverage his shallow distractions as the anti-thesis of his pursuit of the Divine attributes associated with an Edgedancer Loving and Healing, it just needs more meat I think. Tefts third ideal deals with his feelings about himself, Adolin could have a similar personal issue to swear about.

I just think it's impossible to revive Maya fully without intervention by Cultivation, I'd fully expect Adolin might seek the Nightwatcher to see if Maya can be brought back. I suspect it will be painful as hell to meld together with a puzzle piece that doesn't fit you. But I can see Adolin being willing to do that.

[CrazyRioter]

 We've  even had a WoB that implies that being "broken" is not strictly necessary in the first place.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Adolin and his sword that wants to kind of wake up a little bit. Most of the Knights Radiant have some sort of break in their mind, mental <a little> problem. Where Adolin appears to be the person in Stormlight that's most comfortable with himself. Is that going to cause a problem, or is maybe the fact that he, at least in his mind, murdered Sadeas, going to help bring that to fruition or give us a way towards something like that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's, first off, say I'm not going to repeat this one because it's super spoilery. So let's try to talk around the spoilers.

In the Stormlight Archive, there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant that certain traumas and/or psychological handicaps are effective in drawing the attention of a spren. I haven't actually said if that is true or if that's [just] a tradition of theirs. But there is a tradition among the Knights Radiant. that they have noticed something consistent.

Does it mean that you have to in order to be a Knight Radiant? Well, there is somebody that I would call extremely psychologically well-adjusted, that by the end of the third book is well on the way to Knighthood.

There is something going on there, they are noticing something true. But it might not be as exclusionary as they think it is.

Footnote: Brandon clarified this question in this exchange.
source

So I think discussing over and over again whether he's "broken" is kind of a waste of time. And it also kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth, tbh.

Also, while I think Cultivation could fix her, I don't think it's necessary, and from an out-of-story POV it feels like kind of a cop-out. I also disagree that they don't fit together. We've had WoB that she might have wanted to bond with him if she were alive, so I think they do fit together.

Edited November 3, 2018 by CrazyRioter

[Rakei]

I honestly think it makes the most sense, especially since it's a cultivation spren, and it's a definite sacrifice. Like do you really want a curse to revive this dead spren when you're likely to be able to attract a living one.

I also think you misunderstood my meaning when I said fit? I meant literally she was bound together with a person with a spiritweb that's unique to that person, whatever bits are missing it's still never gonna be the same as the one she bonded to before.

[CrazyRioter]

(super belated but I like this thread) Still think it's a better story for them to grow together and for her to be revived organically rather than Cultivation just fixing it.

Cultivation doesn't seem to be the "ix everything" type anyway, she's much more into giving things a nudge and letting them grow on their own.