Leyrann

[OB] Mayalaran

440 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think simply forming a nahel bond with her should be what is required to restore her,, no extra investiture required.

It's plausible that she'll have some lingering "scars" from the whole thing, but I don't think it'll change her basic nature.

 

Based on the various WoB about the difficulty of reviving dead radiant spren I had the impression that they needed to be fixed *before* a nahel bond can form.  Reviving a dead spren should be more then just like bonding a regular one but more so.  On the meta level I would personally prefer if Adolin didn't become a radiant.  I like the idea of a well liked character that isn't a radiant or has special powers that is important to the story.  He doesn't need to be radiant to be awesome.

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1 hour ago, Arondell said:

Based on the various WoB about the difficulty of reviving dead radiant spren I had the impression that they needed to be fixed *before* a nahel bond can form.  Reviving a dead spren should be more then just like bonding a regular one but more so. 

And I feel it's the opposite. A bond would fix them, but how do you forge a bond with a spren who has been rendered essentially mindless? 

I think Adolin supports this, because Maya is healing. She's summoned in under the ten heartbeats, and she's spoken even if that communication is somewhat rudimentary. 

Adolin fits the Edgedancer model well, and if Maya were whole, she may have chosen to bond him as he is. 

Quote

CrazyRioter [PENDING REVIEW]

Would Maya have wanted to bond with Adolin if she were alive?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I think so.

source

All of that added together, and I think it's happening. 

1 hour ago, Arondell said:

On the meta level I would personally prefer if Adolin didn't become a radiant.  I like the idea of a well liked character that isn't a radiant or has special powers that is important to the story.  He doesn't need to be radiant to be awesome.

I understand the sentiment of this part, but I honestly just don't think it's feasible. Adolin is just about the best non-radiant fighter in the books, and he would be dead twice over if it weren't for Maya, and again if not for being healed. 

And the strongest of the Fused haven't woken yet. And up to this point if you look at things, Odium was playing a game he was certain he'd won. The fighting hasn't actually started yet. 

With what's coming, I think if you're not a Radiant, you had better stay out of the line of fire. 

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9 hours ago, Calderis said:

And I feel it's the opposite. A bond would fix them, but how do you forge a bond with a spren who has been rendered essentially mindless? 

I think Adolin supports this, because Maya is healing. She's summoned in under the ten heartbeats, and she's spoken even if that communication is somewhat rudimentary.

I’m thinking all of his interactions with her (from talking to her long before he ever knew she was a dead spren, right upto her revealing her name and so on) created a spiritual connection to her. Brandon’s has said that breaking the bond could be compared to ripping out wet ware, but she is a being of investiture, and so that damage would be done to her spirit web. My thoughts are leaning in the direction that connection is what is repairing the vast damage to her soul.

Connection is investiture

Investiture can be used to fill the cracks in the spiritweb.

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So I'm on the fence.

Like the idea of a spren coming back from oblivion and unlife is very interesting, and I do think Adolin has the potential for Radiance. What I'm not sure I feel from him is an aspiration towards the Divine Attributes of Loving and Healing outside of feeling a connection to Maya.

Is that just me? All the others I feel like seek to embody the attributes associated with their Order in general, they also all seem to battle in some sense the antithesis of those Attributes, so take Shallan, she strives for creativity and honesty (when she has to come clean about things she usually feels good about it, and she dislikes not being truthful) and she's constantly in a battle against her own dishonesty.

In some way I can see it, but I also think it would require more character growth in that direction.

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11 hours ago, Rakei said:

So I'm on the fence.

Like the idea of a spren coming back from oblivion and unlife is very interesting, and I do think Adolin has the potential for Radiance. What I'm not sure I feel from him is an aspiration towards the Divine Attributes of Loving and Healing outside of feeling a connection to Maya.

Is that just me? All the others I feel like seek to embody the attributes associated with their Order in general, they also all seem to battle in some sense the antithesis of those Attributes, so take Shallan, she strives for creativity and honesty (when she has to come clean about things she usually feels good about it, and she dislikes not being truthful) and she's constantly in a battle against her own dishonesty.

In some way I can see it, but I also think it would require more character growth in that direction.

It's not just you. I know that many people have pointed out the elements of Adolin which are consistent with the edgedancers but I agree it doesn't fit with the character as a whole. 

While I wouldn't have said it before Oathbringer, I am coming around to the Adolin stoneward theory. We consistently see him taking on impossible odds and prevailing - just. We know this to be a characteristic of Talenel who is said to embody the stonewards. We know that the stonewards emphasise self sacrifice from the chapter prefaces in oathbringer and this is also something that is very consistent with Adolin. He was even willing to (erroneously) "step aside" for Shallan to be with Kaladin if that made her happier. His murder of Sadeas can also be seen in this light - Adolin sacrificing himself via expected punishment for the greater good (perhaps). He is also determined in the face of his father and social pressure from his peers. That and Dalinar often refers to him as "solid dependable Adolin" or similar.  

There are also a lot of little things in oathbringer - when he is in Kholinar he feels like he walks straighter when he is wearing his uniform. He feels more at place wearing the outfit in shadesmar. I think this speaks to him embracing that "soldier" element of his personality and putting the "fop" part behind him. Something that may or may not speak to him embracing the "role" of the stonewards by reference to the notion of Talnelel as herald of war. I think that may have been some of the character growth we did see in Adolin though oathbringer; that and the humility gained in Kholinar and Shadesmar; however this would be equally applicable growth to both Stonewards and Edgedancers I suspect. Stonewards because he recognises that he is just another soldier, edgedancers because he gains insight into what it is like to be powerless. There also could be significance to his distaste for flying - preferring to keep his feet on the ground.

That said, we don't know enough about the stonewards to be certain of this - all of what I have said is extrapolation and speculation. The stonewards could be completely different to what we have seen so far and this theorising is bupkis. But from what we have seen about them - self sacrifice, determination, courage - Adolin fits them very well. 

There is a real problem in how stonewards fit in though. Self sacrifice is very much tied to protection which is more of a windrunner thing. However, that could also explain why we see the windrunner and stonewards operating together so often in the books. It would also present an interesting interaction between Adolin and Kaladin; both driven to "protect" in different ways and for different motivations. 

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See that was my sense of Adolin, he's working on improving himself, from WoK where he was a foppish mess, who couldn't really be depended upon for much. But he's been progressing in a direction of being available and steady for his father, his brother, Shallan and everyone. The killing of Sadeas is inline with it to some extend but I also think it is a deviation from the right path like letting Elhokar be killed deviated Kaladin from his path.

We don't know much about Stonewards, and Selfsacrifice might be part of it, but it also seems there is some latitude in what qualifies a person on their path, Like Szeth choosing a different kind of Justice to seek and follow.

The one  or two edgedancers we know of both seem to embrace a sort of selflessness and a deep love of life. I don't see much similarity between Lift and Adolin, and though I said there was some latitude in how you take the oaths, I just feel like Adolin has been built more for towards dependable, even though he's also shown some selfless actions.

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13 hours ago, Rakei said:

So I'm on the fence.

Like the idea of a spren coming back from oblivion and unlife is very interesting, and I do think Adolin has the potential for Radiance. What I'm not sure I feel from him is an aspiration towards the Divine Attributes of Loving and Healing outside of feeling a connection to Maya.

Is that just me? All the others I feel like seek to embody the attributes associated with their Order in general, they also all seem to battle in some sense the antithesis of those Attributes, so take Shallan, she strives for creativity and honesty (when she has to come clean about things she usually feels good about it, and she dislikes not being truthful) and she's constantly in a battle against her own dishonesty.

In some way I can see it, but I also think it would require more character growth in that direction.

Part of that could be from seeing Radiants already on the journey that is the bond while we see Adolin at the unbonded stage.

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1 hour ago, Rakei said:

See that was my sense of Adolin, he's working on improving himself, from WoK where he was a foppish mess, who couldn't really be depended upon for much. But he's been progressing in a direction of being available and steady for his father, his brother, Shallan and everyone. The killing of Sadeas is inline with it to some extend but I also think it is a deviation from the right path like letting Elhokar be killed deviated Kaladin from his path.

We don't know much about Stonewards, and Selfsacrifice might be part of it, but it also seems there is some latitude in what qualifies a person on their path, Like Szeth choosing a different kind of Justice to seek and follow.

The one  or two edgedancers we know of both seem to embrace a sort of selflessness and a deep love of life. I don't see much similarity between Lift and Adolin, and though I said there was some latitude in how you take the oaths, I just feel like Adolin has been built more for towards dependable, even though he's also shown some selfless actions.

The sacrifice bit mostly comes from this:

Quote

As a Stoneward, I spent my entire life looking to sacrifice myself. I secretly worry that is the cowardly way. The easy way out. —From drawer 29-5, topaz

I think selflessness and love of life is very consistent with Adolin though. I'm just not sure that is entirely what the edgedancers are about. 

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For one thing, it's possible to fit into multiple orders. 

For another, the only Edgedancer we've seen is Lift, and as has been pointed out a few times, Adolin and Lift's motivations are not as wildly different as the characters seem at first. 

I can't think of anything to say he would fit as an Edgedancer better than this

Quote

CrazyRioter [PENDING REVIEW]

Would Maya have wanted to bond with Adolin if she were alive?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I think so.

source

That's not to say that a spren of a different type couldn't also be drawn to him... But his actions of the course of the series fit best with her in my opinion. 

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It is possible to fit into multiple orders I think the most important aspect is what the person strives and aspires to be, not so much the thing they inherently are?

I find it telling that the WoB is I think so, cause it just seems like it's not decided yet.

It's an interesting thing because many of the others struggle against a character flaw that's the opposite of whatever they're striving for. Some more so than others, but I'd like to see more of Adolin's internal struggles, maybe it's been too long since I read the first two books.

The one thing that's for sure is that something interesting is bound to happen with the whole situation. It would be fascinating if a shardblade could be brought back without having to be bonded to the one who brought it back. If I'm correct Adolin hasn't even sworn the first general Radience Ideal, so he might not become a Radient at all, plot twist. 

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1 hour ago, Rakei said:

It would be fascinating if a shardblade could be brought back without having to be bonded to the one who brought it back.

A bond is what was torn out, I don't think you can fix them without building a new one in its place. 

1 hour ago, Rakei said:

If I'm correct Adolin hasn't even sworn the first general Radience Ideal, so he might not become a Radient at all, plot twist. 

He hasn't, and how could he? He has no whole spren to swear those oaths to. 

I think that Adolin will essentially have to be living as a third oath Edgedancer, without the benefit of a Spren's input and guidance to reach that point. Building the bond to a point that revives them is exactly what makes it so nearly impossible. 

1 hour ago, Rakei said:

It's an interesting thing because many of the others struggle against a character flaw that's the opposite of whatever they're striving for. Some more so than others, but I'd like to see more of Adolin's internal struggles, maybe it's been too long since I read the first two books.

The Divine Attributes of an Edgedancer are Loving and Healing. I see no issues with Adolin for the first, he loves fiercely. His family in particular. Healing he needs to wok on, and there's you conflict. 

As far as the Oaths are concerned, the first oath... Can mean whatever someone believes it to... 

Spoilered for length 

Spoiler
Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Footnote: A follow up question was asked in the signing line.
source
Quote

AndrewHB

I wondered if I could follow up to that Machiavelli question. Would Elsecallers be a-- one of those other, uh-- one of those...

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah. Elsecallers are fairly compatible. Like, Elsecallers feel like the journey is... the journey is the entire species, right? And that the journey is the destination. *inaudible*

Footnote: Referenced question was asked in the General Q&A.
source

 

As for the second, I think he's already got that down. 

Quote

 

I will remember those who have been forgotten.

The first example is easily arguable because it's his mother, but He and Renarin are the only people we see with any real acknowledgement of Evi before Dalinar begins remembering her again. 

He is the only high ranking Lighteyes we see interact with anyone of the lower classes in any way that is remotely positive, be it the prostitute, or laughing with darkeyed children. 

And of course, everyone else tries quickly to move on from the loses at the tower, and Adolin doesn't. He latches onto it and it is, in my opinion at least, the main reason for Sadeas murder in the first place. 

Now the third... 

Quote

 

I will listen to those who have been ignored.

Here he's got some work to do. I think though, that his relationship with Kaladin will facilitate that progression. 

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Anyone could swear the first ideal, it's just a general one, I don't think any of the Bridge crew had a certain spren interested in them, and the Skybreakers swear that one before, it's like a statement of intent? The Skybreakers name it the Ideal of Radiance. It's like a precursor to everything, like I'm willing to try to become a Radiant.

I think at the very least Adolin would have to speak those words, put it out in the world.

Just so we're clear I have no issue either way.

Adolin does love his family and those close to him, but is that enough? The Second Ideal (Lift swears, they all seem rather fluid about what works) is remembering those who are forgotten, the question is does Adolin try to remember more than just his Mom and those close to him? And is it something he wants to do?

The Healing attribute is a little harder to deal with, is it a wish to be able to heal? is it a commitment to provide healing? physical, mental or spiritual, all three or just one?

Well I certainly hope we actually get to see some of the struggles and we don't timeskip to a place where anything is just handwaved.

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I think the loving part of Adolin is pretty clear. He loves his family and loves Shallan. It's a big part of his motivations.

If we are looking for healing in Adolin's story, we see it in his interactions with Shallan and Maya. With Shallan he is helping heal her fractured psyche. With Maya he is helping heal her identity. 

I don't think there is any problem with him being an Edgedancer; even if I think others might suit him better. 

I like the Maya revival story and agree that it would probably be the best path to Adolin's radiance if it occurs. I just think a more interesting variation of that story would be if the process of revival caused a fundamental shift in Maya's identity, causing her to become a different spren.

This would, in my opinion, give credence to the significance of her "death"; that you just can't fix things so they go back to the way they were. Instead, you overcome problems by moving forward and changing; a theme which is very consistent with the fundamental ideas in the stormlight archive. 

I could imagine a scene where Adolin becomes radiant and he speaks to his spren:

"Maya?"

"Mayalaran is who I was. I can't be her any longer. Not if I want to move forward. Now I am <name>"

 

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We know from the WoB I got (which I am very very smug about) that Maya probably would have been willing to bond with him i she were alive, so I'd say that's good evidence that Adolin would make a good Edgedancer. I think he's got a ways to go to realize that about himself though, he's very hung up on being what people expect him to be, and I think that's causing him to not notice some of his other strengths, or not value them.

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6 hours ago, Calderis said:

He is the only high ranking Lighteyes we see interact with anyone of the lower classes in any way that is remotely positive, be it the prostitute, or laughing with darkeyed children. 

Another example of this I enjoy, which seems specifically made to highlight this trait of his, is that scene during WoR I believe when they are marching across the plateaus. Kaladin is talking smack about Adolin to Shallan, and she sarcastically says something to the effect of, "Oh, you mean that horrible, condescending guy over there?". Pan camera to Adolin, who is laughing and joking with the common darkeyed soldiers in the group. It might be a stretch, but that could fall into "listen to those who have been ignored" territory.

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I do think an interesting plot twist at this point would be if a living spren came along and started the bonding process.

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45 minutes ago, Solant said:

Another example of this I enjoy, which seems specifically made to highlight this trait of his, is that scene during WoR I believe when they are marching across the plateaus. Kaladin is talking smack about Adolin to Shallan, and she sarcastically says something to the effect of, "Oh, you mean that horrible, condescending guy over there?". Pan camera to Adolin, who is laughing and joking with the common darkeyed soldiers in the group. It might be a stretch, but that could fall into "listen to those who have been ignored" territory.

There are also the references in Oathbringer how Adolin is an old drinking buddy of Skar and Drehy. Although, I agree with you - it is not really "listen to those who have been ignored".

I would say there are sufficient inferences to establish Adolin as a potential Edgedancer. That shouldn't be in question.

I would say that there are sufficient inferences to establish Adolin as other orders, which isn't particularly controversial either. I think that there are more fitting orders for Adolin than the Edgedancers.

Further, as I suggested above the storyline of "Maya gets fixed and goes back to what she always was" is not consistent with the overall themes of the Stormlight Archive. For such a major storyline point, it would seem to be inconsistent that it would go against theme. Instead, I would argue that a transformation arc would be more consistent with those themes and more dramatic and impactful on the universe; while the spren are coming back, they are coming back as *something different*.

Imagine if this is so: Do the spren tribes even *want* their deadeyes to be brought back to life? How do they reconcile the place of these new spren? This preserves the impact of the Recreance, albeit in different form.

The reason I point this out is not to try and undermine the "Adolin Edgedancer" argument. The argument is there and sound (and has been largely discussed to death). If Maya comes back the way she was, then in all likelihood Adolin will go Edgedancer. I think the interesting question - specifically why I mentioned it in the thread about Mayalaran is going to be revived as a Cultivationspren or something else.

Edited by Jaelin
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5 hours ago, Jaelin said:

There are also the references in Oathbringer how Adolin is an old drinking buddy of Skar and Drehy. Although, I agree with you - it is not really "listen to those who have been ignored".

I would say there are sufficient inferences to establish Adolin as a potential Edgedancer. That shouldn't be in question.

I would say that there are sufficient inferences to establish Adolin as other orders, which isn't particularly controversial either. I think that there are more fitting orders for Adolin than the Edgedancers.

Further, as I suggested above the storyline of "Maya gets fixed and goes back to what she always was" is not consistent with the overall themes of the Stormlight Archive. For such a major storyline point, it would seem to be inconsistent that it would go against theme. Instead, I would argue that a transformation arc would be more consistent with those themes and more dramatic and impactful on the universe; while the spren are coming back, they are coming back as *something different*.

Imagine if this is so: Do the spren tribes even *want* their deadeyes to be brought back to life? How do they reconcile the place of these new spren? This preserves the impact of the Recreance, albeit in different form.

The reason I point this out is not to try and undermine the "Adolin Edgedancer" argument. The argument is there and sound (and has been largely discussed to death). If Maya comes back the way she was, then in all likelihood Adolin will go Edgedancer. I think the interesting question - specifically why I mentioned it in the thread about Mayalaran is going to be revived as a Cultivationspren or something else.

When men die, they become something else. Something is missing. When spren die, they are still spren.

I think death is only tearing apart the "human" part of spren. Like personality, memories and mind. But "DNA" is still same. When chinese guy goes crazy and is healed, he doesn't become european guy. He is maybe changed, but only in soul.

 

Ps: not racist, this is the best explanation I found out.

Edited by NoiseSpren
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5 hours ago, Jaelin said:
6 hours ago, Solant said:

Another example of this I enjoy, which seems specifically made to highlight this trait of his, is that scene during WoR I believe when they are marching across the plateaus. Kaladin is talking smack about Adolin to Shallan, and she sarcastically says something to the effect of, "Oh, you mean that horrible, condescending guy over there?". Pan camera to Adolin, who is laughing and joking with the common darkeyed soldiers in the group. It might be a stretch, but that could fall into "listen to those who have been ignored" territory.

There are also the references in Oathbringer how Adolin is an old drinking buddy of Skar and Drehy. Although, I agree with you - it is not really "listen to those who have been ignored

I see your point, but the oaths don't always translate verbatim between members of the same order. Contextually, as a member of the noble class, I feel like darkeyes would absolutely be considered those who have been ignored. For almost anyone else of his social status to readily and easily fraternize with commoners would be highly unusual. I could just be reading too far into it, but in hindsight it seems like a very specific moment BS was trying to call attention to.

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Yeah, Adolin's treatment of darkeyes is VERY notable, considering how most lighteyes, especially of his station, treat them.

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21 hours ago, NoiseSpren said:

When men die, they become something else. Something is missing. When spren die, they are still spren.

I think death is only tearing apart the "human" part of spren. Like personality, memories and mind. But "DNA" is still same. When chinese guy goes crazy and is healed, he doesn't become european guy. He is maybe changed, but only in soul.

Ps: not racist, this is the best explanation I found out.

I'm not sure your analogy is the best one. Spren are inhabitants of the cognitive realm, literally ideas given life. Their personality and mind are fundamental to their identity; it is both shaped by and shapes who they are. The distinction between physical body and cognitive mind for spren is not present. 

A good example of this is Mayalaran herself. When Adolin first meets her in the cognitive realm her she is described as:

Quote

strange spren woman with the scratched-out eyes and the skin made of rough cloth.

But later in the book she is referred to as:

Quote

A figure in tattered clothing, a scrabbling, angry woman with brown vines instead of skin and scratched-out eyes.

The restoration of Maya's mind is affecting her 'physical' form. Ergo, for spren the cognitive affects the physical. 

(Further examples could probably be made from Sja-Anat's creations)

So, if Maya's mind were to be substantially changed by the restoration there seems to be no reason she wouldn't  become another type of Spren. 

There exists another possibility in this case - that Adolin restores Maya, she becomes something new and we get another Renarin situation where we have a Radiant who doesn't fit existing paradigmns. 

Edited by Jaelin
remove mobile shenannigans
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I don't interpret that as her changing, just him being more observant about her appearance. As a dead cultivationspren she looks like she's made of dead vines, but Adolin wasn't observing her closely at the start due to being spooked.

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2 hours ago, Jaelin said:

I'm not sure your analogy is the best one. Spren are inhabitants of the cognitive realm, literally ideas given life. Their personality and mind are fundamental to their identity; it is both shaped by and shapes who they are. The distinction between physical body and cognitive mind for spren is not present. 

But they are solid and nonchanging. Yes, they can develop their personality more when bonded or die. But the exact idea of them is not changing. They are born of thought and they live like that, die like that, bond like than and - revive like that. They are spren. As Syl said, spren don't change. They are like rock.

Or A STICK. Stick hasn't changed, ever.

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2 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't interpret that as her changing, just him being more observant about her appearance. As a dead cultivationspren she looks like she's made of dead vines, but Adolin wasn't observing her closely at the start due to being spooked.

That doesn't make sense to me. 

If Adolin is spooked and not paying attention to details, then no details would be mentioned. Not to mention, in the early stages of Shadesmar, Adolin (despite his internal misgivings) is one of the most composed people in the group. Not only does he keep it together for himself, he looks after Kaladin while he is struggling 

Instead, a detail is specifically mentioned. I would say that is relevant. Especially since the transition from "rough cloth" to "brown vines" is in line with the general regeneration of Mayalaram that we see at the end of Oathbringer, where she starts "talking" with Adolin.

What the brown vines means is hard to say. It could be that they are a step towards green vines in the progression of no characteristics > dead characteristics > living characteristics. Or, it could be that they are her old vines, from when she is was a cultivationspren, now dead and ready to fall, as dead branches fall from a tree; potentially revealing something else inside.

1 minute ago, NoiseSpren said:

But they are solid and nonchanging. Yes, they can develop their personality more when bonded or die. But the exact idea of them is not changing. They are born of thought and they live like that, die like that, bond like than and - revive like that. They are spren. As Syl said, spren don't change. They are like rock.

Or A STICK. Stick hasn't changed, ever.

Except when they aren't. We know spren can change form and (arguably) purpose because of Sja-anat. 

We don't know how much damage severing the nahel bond does to a spren's internal makeup. We don't know if they come back the same. 

We do know that the nahel bond makes spren effectively mindless. Ico's provides a good demonstration of this - 

Quote

“Can’t have them on deck,” Ico said. “They don’t watch where they’re walking and fall off. I’m not going to spend days trying to fish out a lost deadeye.”

We do know that spren are creatures of the cognitive realm. We have examples of this directly affecting their physical composition. We cannot know what rebuilding the severe psychological trauma from a severed nahel bond will do with a spren. Because (to the best of our knowledge) it has never been done before. 

There is a *reasonable possibility* that the restoration of the nahel bond could change Mayalaram on a fundamental level. To claim otherwise is simply willful ignorance. 

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1 minute ago, Jaelin said:

There is a *reasonable possibility* that the restoration of the nahel bond could change Mayalaram on a fundamental level. To claim otherwise is simply willful ignorance. 

Yes, there is *reasonable possibility*.

You are right.

But I personaly think it is improbable. At least without Sja-anat or Mother interaction. But considering this option...

Mother or at least Nightwatcher would be pleased - Adolin reviving cultivationspren... Yes definitively pleased. So, interaction...

:huh:

Just dreaming.

Considering it all: yes it is possible, but we don't know complexity or requirements for such thing.

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