[OB] Mayalaran

[+Invocation]

On 11/15/2017 at 3:08 PM, Ryshadium said:

Like Cam Jansen...though I may be dating myself with that reference. 

I haven't thought about Cam Jansen in years.

[CrazyRioter]

I agree with @Calderis that people tend to underestimate Adolin's issues and overestimate how broken you need to be to have 'cracks" in your soul.

I do think he might not progress with Maya until he can overcome some of his inadequacy issues because he won't say the Ideals when he feels so unworthy.

[cantabile21]

On 8/24/2018 at 9:53 PM, CrazyRioter said:

I do think he might not progress with Maya until he can overcome some of his inadequacy issues because he won't say the Ideals when he feels so unworthy.

Actually, i think it's precisely this inadequacy that will lead Maya to reach out to him, to tell him that she accepts him regardless of how he feels about himself, much like how Syl admired Kaladin even in the midst of his depression and saw him as a hero. 

Granted Maya didn't choose Adolin like how a spren normally chooses a human; she was stuck with him because he won her in a duel and then bonded her. But judging by how protective of him she had grown by the later parts of Oathbringer, physically taking hits for him and warning him and forcibly reviving herself before the requisite ten heartbeats just to save him, she has definitely grown attached to him and feels some sort of admiration for him, even though he feels crap about himself. And now that Adolin has probably taken on the title of highprince, there are ample more reasons for him to feel even more crap about himself as he learns to deal with all the politics and headaches of the Alethi court while trying to run a princedom with a fallen capital city. And then there's Shallan and her personalities to deal with. And the revelation that his father, whom he worshipped, was actually the one who had killed his mother and destroyed his world... 

In the midst of all this stress, i can imagine Maya starting to reach out to him more overtly, slowly reviving as she sees all these cracks form in his soul and tries to fill them. i can see Adolin escaping to the training grounds occasionally to work off all the craziness going on around him - here, in the grounds that he loves, it's just him and Maya, flowing together in the joy and passion of the art of the sword. Here, in his mind, Maya encourages him and affirms his worth and place in the world, even as he sees himself as nothing. Here, Maya slowly grows whole.

And then, in yet another battle that Adolin simply can't win, as he drowns in despair and self-loathing and comes to the verge of death yet again, Maya offers him a chance to live a better life and to be a better man, to be worthy. To do that, he needs to say these Words...

Well, that's how i dream it anyway. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by cantabile21

[MountainKing]

15 minutes ago, cantabile21 said:

Actually, i think it's precisely this inadequacy that will lead Maya to reach out to him, to tell him that she accepts him regardless of how he feels about himself, much like how Syl admired Kaladin even in the midst of his depression and saw him as a hero. 

Granted Maya didn't choose Adolin like how a spren normally chooses a human; she was stuck with him because he won her in a duel and then bonded her. But judging by how protective of him she had grown by the later parts of Oathbringer, physically taking hits for him and warning him and forcibly reviving herself before the requisite ten heartbeats just to save him, she has definitely grown attached to him and feels some sort of admiration for him, even though he feels crap about himself. And now that Adolin has probably taken on the title of highprince, there are ample more reasons for him to feel even more crap about himself as he learns to deal with all the politics and headaches of the Alethi court while trying to run a princedom with a fallen capital city. And then there's Shallan and her personalities to deal with. And the revelation that his father, whom he worshipped, was actually the one who had killed his mother and destroyed his world... 

In the midst of all this stress, i can imagine Maya starting to reach out to him more overtly, slowly reviving as she sees all these cracks form in his soul and tries to fill them. i can see Adolin escaping to the training grounds occasionally to work off all the craziness going on around him - here, in the grounds that he loves, it's just him and Maya, flowing together in the joy and passion of the art of the sword. Here, in his mind, Maya encourages him and affirms his worth and place in the world, even as he sees himself as nothing. Here, Maya slowly grows whole.

And then, in yet another battle that Adolin simply can't win, as he drowns in despair and self-loathing and comes to the verge of death yet again, Maya offers him a chance to live a better life and to be a better man, to be worthy. To do that, he needs to say these Words...

Well, that's how i dream it anyway. 

I want that to happen.

[NoiseSpren]

23 minutes ago, cantabile21 said:

Actually, i think it's precisely this inadequacy that will lead Maya to reach out to him, to tell him that she accepts him regardless of how he feels about himself, much like how Syl admired Kaladin even in the midst of his depression and saw him as a hero. 

Granted Maya didn't choose Adolin like how a spren normally chooses a human; she was stuck with him because he won her in a duel and then bonded her. But judging by how protective of him she had grown by the later parts of Oathbringer, physically taking hits for him and warning him and forcibly reviving herself before the requisite ten heartbeats just to save him, she has definitely grown attached to him and feels some sort of admiration for him, even though he feels crap about himself. And now that Adolin has probably taken on the title of highprince, there are ample more reasons for him to feel even more crap about himself as he learns to deal with all the politics and headaches of the Alethi court while trying to run a princedom with a fallen capital city. And then there's Shallan and her personalities to deal with. And the revelation that his father, whom he worshipped, was actually the one who had killed his mother and destroyed his world... 

In the midst of all this stress, i can imagine Maya starting to reach out to him more overtly, slowly reviving as she sees all these cracks form in his soul and tries to fill them. i can see Adolin escaping to the training grounds occasionally to work off all the craziness going on around him - here, in the grounds that he loves, it's just him and Maya, flowing together in the joy and passion of the art of the sword. Here, in his mind, Maya encourages him and affirms his worth and place in the world, even as he sees himself as nothing. Here, Maya slowly grows whole.

And then, in yet another battle that Adolin simply can't win, as he drowns in despair and self-loathing and comes to the verge of death yet again, Maya offers him a chance to live a better life and to be a better man, to be worthy. To do that, he needs to say these Words...

Well, that's how i dream it anyway. 

That was beautifully described.

[CrazyRioter]

I do like the idea of her managing to get through to him when he's hitting rock bottom and encouraging him to pick himself up and continue on and not give up on himself.

[StrikerEZ]

On 8/25/2018 at 9:16 PM, CrazyRioter said:

I do like the idea of her managing to get through to him when he's hitting rock bottom and encouraging him to pick himself up and continue on and not give up on himself.

It'd be so perfect because the Edgedancer Oaths are all about rembering those forgotten. Adolin often forgets himself and his own wants and desires to help others. Bonding Maya would help him care more for himself.

[tmnsquirtle]

On 8/25/2018 at 3:03 PM, cantabile21 said:

Actually, i think it's precisely this inadequacy that will lead Maya to reach out to him, to tell him that she accepts him regardless of how he feels about himself, much like how Syl admired Kaladin even in the midst of his depression and saw him as a hero. 

Granted Maya didn't choose Adolin like how a spren normally chooses a human; she was stuck with him because he won her in a duel and then bonded her. But judging by how protective of him she had grown by the later parts of Oathbringer, physically taking hits for him and warning him and forcibly reviving herself before the requisite ten heartbeats just to save him, she has definitely grown attached to him and feels some sort of admiration for him, even though he feels crap about himself. And now that Adolin has probably taken on the title of highprince, there are ample more reasons for him to feel even more crap about himself as he learns to deal with all the politics and headaches of the Alethi court while trying to run a princedom with a fallen capital city. And then there's Shallan and her personalities to deal with. And the revelation that his father, whom he worshipped, was actually the one who had killed his mother and destroyed his world... 

In the midst of all this stress, i can imagine Maya starting to reach out to him more overtly, slowly reviving as she sees all these cracks form in his soul and tries to fill them. i can see Adolin escaping to the training grounds occasionally to work off all the craziness going on around him - here, in the grounds that he loves, it's just him and Maya, flowing together in the joy and passion of the art of the sword. Here, in his mind, Maya encourages him and affirms his worth and place in the world, even as he sees himself as nothing. Here, Maya slowly grows whole.

And then, in yet another battle that Adolin simply can't win, as he drowns in despair and self-loathing and comes to the verge of death yet again, Maya offers him a chance to live a better life and to be a better man, to be worthy. To do that, he needs to say these Words...

Well, that's how i dream it anyway. 

Have you ever considered writing a romance novel? Because that was downright cute.

(congrats to you, btw, if you just got through reading this massive thread!)

Edited August 29, 2018 by tmnsquirtle

[cantabile21]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:31 AM, tmnsquirtle said:

Have you ever considered writing a romance novel? Because that was downright cute.

(congrats to you, btw, if you just got through reading this massive thread!)

Haha thanks tmnsquirtle. Though i think i love reading too much to actually try writing! And there's just so much out there to read... 

[Veiled]

I haven't been through the last 8/16 pages yet but, so far, in the debate about if Adolin is "broken enough", no one has mentioned how he constantly berates himself for not being good enough. Do you realize what has to happen to a person for such persistent self-loathing to set in and, moreover, how it eats a person alive once it has? Brokenness is individual. The importance of perspective comes up several times throughout SA. It isn't our perspective of his brokenness that matters, it is his own.

Also, the way he isn't able to stick to one woman until it's someone he feels he doesn't have to have a special connection to (and then he does form that connection accidentally with that person) speaks to some subconscious intimacy issues, probably revolving around his mother's death and his father's emotional abuse. That's indicative of trauma rather than, as some have suggested, something he doesn't have bitterness about.

Furthermore, people can be very skillful at hiding their emotions, even from themselves. Why do you think he understands Shallan so well? You think because Sanderson doesn't spell it out as clearly he can't be going through what is actually a very common coping mechanism? His outburst is easily read as convincing himself he doesn't feel guilty for the murder that -don't forget- he thinks about every time we get his POV and is very quick to write off, like he doesn't want to think about it. Same for the other things he's been through. As soon as he thinks about them he dismisses them like he would a Shardblade. That kind of repression can cause very deep cracks in a person's psyche. 

And finally.... Some will feel threatened by this, some few may feel liberated, most will simply feel that it should not exist. I needed to write it anyway... I know we're just talking about a work of fiction here but studies have shown that reading literature increases empathy. This talk of if Adolin is "broken enough" exemplifies not empathy but almost callousness and I would ask that those of you making such arguments pay close attention to not just what you read but how you read. And also that you be grateful that you, ostensibly, haven't had the kind of personal struggles that would allow you insight into this topic. Clearly you devoted a great deal of time and thought to these books. Why expend so much on something if it doesn't change you, doesn't make you a better person? Isn't that the whole point of this saga?

 

On 8/25/2018 at 3:03 PM, cantabile21 said:

here, in the grounds that he loves, it's just him and Maya, flowing together in the joy and passion of the art of the sword. Here, in his mind, Maya encourages him and affirms his worth and place in the world, even as he sees himself as nothing. Here, Maya slowly grows whole.

And then, in yet another battle that Adolin simply can't win, as he drowns in despair and self-loathing and comes to the verge of death yet again, Maya offers him a chance to live a better life and to be a better man, to be worthy. To do that, he needs to say these Words...

Literally crying actual tears. My soul needed this. Why can't real life be like literature? Also, I agree with the previous commenter that you should write. Though, I'd call this "moving" rather than "cute". 

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:17 PM, maxal said:

Thus, can a character such as Adolin welcome the Nahel Bond despite potentially not having a "broken mind"? I think not, because even with this new WoB, he does not meet the "willingness" criteria it seems to add. In short, Adolin does not believe he is worthy of becoming a Radiant, he does not believe he is good enough for it: he is not actively seeking it. Chances of him starting to genuinely want it currently are slim to none. 

This isn't consistent with what we've seen from other characters. Windrunners, at least, seem to outright contradict it. Kal, Teft, Sig, their moments come not when they feel like they deserve it but at moments of self-doubt when they focus instead on doing what they can to help others.

[Ashertliden]

Mayalaran is actually a stick

Edited September 11, 2018 by A stick

[tmnsquirtle]

5 hours ago, Veiled said:

Literally crying actual tears. My soul needed this. Why can't real life be like literature? Also, I agree with the previous commenter that you should write. Though, I'd call this "moving" rather than "cute". 

Why not both? 

[CrazyRioter]

I think all our Radiants, except maybe Lift and Lopen have had at least moments of that kind of self-doubt. Teft especially feels unworthy. Didn't stop him in the end. Won't (necessarily) stop Adolin. It's something he'll have to struggle with, but he's not the only one.

Also

9 hours ago, A stick said:

Mayalaran is actually a stick

Maya is actually a vine, or a bunch of vines, that's sort of like a stick

[Angsos]

So you mean Stick is a shardblade

[Ashertliden]

Stick is a shardblade, stick is the black sphere, stick is the cosmere as a whole.

 

But he isn't fire.

Edited September 12, 2018 by A stick

[cantabile21]

On 9/11/2018 at 4:39 PM, Veiled said:

Literally crying actual tears. My soul needed this.

Wow... thanks for your encouraging words, Veiled! i'm really surprised and rather gratified that my fangirling piece actually touched your heart. But i guess that's why words hold more power than we would think, and this reminds me that we gotta be careful with what we say, online or offline. A few casual words could profoundly impact someone's life. 

On 9/11/2018 at 4:39 PM, Veiled said:

His outburst is easily read as convincing himself he doesn't feel guilty for the murder that -don't forget- he thinks about every time we get his POV and is very quick to write off, like he doesn't want to think about it. Same for the other things he's been through. As soon as he thinks about them he dismisses them like he would a Shardblade. That kind of repression can cause very deep cracks in a person's psyche. 

Yep, i also noticed that he actually thinks about the murder a lot, even as he puts on a happy face for everyone else. He does feel guilty, not so much for actually killing Sadeas, but for the dishonourable way he did it. He would much rather have killed Sadeas in the duelling arena, in front of witnesses and with his father's blessing. And like you said, living with this kind of hidden guilt can destroy a person within. Shallan is proof of that.

On 9/11/2018 at 4:39 PM, Veiled said:

This talk of if Adolin is "broken enough"

i think that of all our characters, Adolin seems to attract much more argument in this area because (a) he's a prince and has lived a more comfortable life than the others, and (b) his POV passages are meant to show us his thought processes and therefore reflect how he chooses not to dwell on the things that are actually eating him up inside. (b) has been discussed here before, so let's talk about (a). The very word 'prince' brings to mind certain images, whether of a Disney Prince Charming type or of modern day royalty and the privileges they enjoy just because they are royalty. It's easy to just focus on the public image and forget that behind that princely persona lies a real person just like any of us, with thoughts and feelings and hopes and dreams, though admittedly the struggles are different and of a different level than that of a working class person struggling to make ends meet.

So sometimes, it's easy to focus on how Adolin grew up in luxury, surrounded by rich and powerful people and given the very best that his father's wealth could afford, and forget that he also spent his teenage years missing his mother while dealing with his alcoholic father who could not look at him without pain in his eyes, on top of all the expectations put upon him as the firstborn son and heir of the storming Blackthorn. Even before the events of Oathbringer, nothing he did was good enough, for his father had done it all and more. Even his duelling prowess was seen as something he inherited from his father, to be compared with his father's achievements. And even if his father no longer publicly criticises him for his shortcomings, Adolin still does it to himself in his head. These are the sort of wounds that people carry for life. Maybe not the sort of wounds that Kaladin and Shallan carry, but wounds nevertheless. They still hurt. And this is before all the feelings of unworthiness come into play. 

[CrazyRioter]

Adolin may be a prince, but he hasn't exactly lived an ideal life, with his mother being dead, and his father being absent or drunk for much of his childhood and adolescence. Add that to the fact that he's gone from being one of the most formidable warriors in the world to being in over his head facing enemies that outclass him, the invasion of his homeland, etc etc and he's got plenty of reason to be "broken" at this point.

But it doesn't actually matter, because the idea that you need to be broken to become a Radiant is an in-world belief, that isn't completely true.

[Marethyu316]

There are some good arguments in the last few posts for why Adolin could be considered broken. I think of how he was as a little boy in Dalinar's flashbacks and there is clearly some issues with how ready he is to please his father, which then extends to other relationships. It makes him a great guy to be around, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't damage there. He's certainly gone through enough to warrant being broken.

That said, I am still drawn by the possibility of this theory: 

On 11/15/2017 at 6:33 PM, TheGoodyShop said:

What if instead of him speaking the words of the Edgedancers, Mayalaran has to speak the words to be revived and create the Nahel bond? It is clear that Maya is regaining some semblance of consciousness and quite frankly I find the symmetry appealing. Also I factored in the fact that Adolin didn't have anything to do with Maya's initial death.

As Goodyshop says, the symmetry is appealing. 

 

On 11/19/2017 at 11:31 AM, Dryone_2 said:

I think Maya might already be alive:

1) when Adolin interrupts the summoning because he's hit by stones, "Maya brushes against his mind" 

2) Adolin lends Maya to Hrdalm for fighting the thunderclast. AFAIK that's only possible with dead blades when the owner intentionally breaks the bond. Adolin doesn't do that:

 

Another hint of something "bond-like" going on, is on page 1169, where "...he felt something -- a faint panic on the wind. He forced himself to roll to the side, and a Fused swept past, its lance barely missing him." If I remember correctly, Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan (when rediscovering her bond) would get these sorts of premonitions of danger early in the bonding process.

[+robardin]

On 8/25/2018 at 4:03 PM, cantabile21 said:

...I can imagine Maya starting to reach out to him more overtly, slowly reviving as she sees all these cracks form in his soul and tries to fill them. ...in yet another battle that Adolin simply can't win, as he drowns in despair and self-loathing and comes to the verge of death yet again, Maya offers him a chance to live a better life and to be a better man, to be worthy. To do that, he needs to say these Words...

Well, that's how i dream it anyway. 

Very pretty!

Saying the Words is not really a carrot of sorts from a spren to a proto-Radiant, though, at least not with a normal (fully "living") spren; it's a progression on the part of the person. And as we've seen from Teft and Lopen's Windrunner Ideals, the nature of the progression will differ from Radiant to Radiant, depending on their particular way to express the Ideal. 

We've seen Lift say what for her were the Second and Third Ideals of the Edgedancers:

I will remember those who have been forgotten, she said, as she healed Gawx from a fatal wound.

I will listen to those who have been ignored, she said (to Nalan!), as she gained the ability to summon Wyndle as a Shardblade.

What then might Adolin have to do?

I think it's clear from Adolin's nature, plus his hanging around all these Radiants already, that he would well fit the Immortal Words of the First Ideal, which is normally the "first step" in a spren bonding a person. It's how all the Radiants first start to use Stormlight, to heal and to start working with their primary Surge, even at an unconscious level.

I wouldn't be surprised if, off-screen, Adolin had tried saying the Immortal Words out loud, hoping to attract a spren. But it didn't work. And we see no evidence of Stormlight use yet from Adolin.

So, I have this theory that Adolin bonding a revived Mayalaran will be a kind of REVERSE Ideal progression, because Maya is ALREADY a Shardblade (Third Ideal or beyond) who is is beginning to form a bond with Adolin, in a way that's never happened before.

It's reflective of him "listening to those who have been ignored", and "remembering those who have been forgotten", in reference to Maya herself.

Listening to those who have been ignored: he's probably the only person since the Recreance who's held a Shardblade and NOT named it anew as any other weapon might be, or used its traditional name ("Oathbringer"), but respectfully waited for the spren to reveal its own name, even though he never actually expected to hear it. And regularly talked to his Blade, too.

Remembering those who have been forgotten: He talked to Maya about how fighting the Thunderclast was "what you were designed for, isn't it? ... It reminds you of when you were alive", and that's when she told him her name. 

I think that is the moment when she even REMEMBERED her name at all. Though she'd already begun to revive some amount of independent will in Shadesmar, when she leapt to Adolin's defense against the Fused (that might have been factor in her revivial, as well - that Adolin "met" her Cognitively, something probably never done before between a deadeye Shardblade and its wielder).

I think he might fully awaken Maya at some point by, somewhat counterintuitively, saying the FIRST Ideal while holding her... To immediately become an Edgedancer of the Third Ideal!

[Jaelin]

The idea of Adolin reviving Mayalaran is interesting. However I am not sure it is the justification that Adolin would become an Edgedancer that people think it is. 

There is a quote form WoB about the severing of the Nahel bond being something like the ripping out of wetware. This does substantial damage to the spren. 

Why do we assume that even if she is revived Mayalaran will be the same that she was before. Perhaps in reviving her Adolin will change Mayalaran. Perhaps the experience will change her. It may be that she will revive as a very different spren than what she once was. 

This would be consistent with the notion that spren are "ideas given life" as discussed at the start of WoR. Adolin heals Mayalaran by giving her some of himself and in doing so changes her nature. Or, her time as a Shardblade has changed her nature. She may no longer be a cultivation-spren focused on giving life but instead a spren of battle, war or protection; because that is all she has known since the Recreance; or that is the idea that Adolin has rebuilt her with. 

I think that would be an even more interesting story than that of Adolin returning her to what she once was; instead the bond changed her into something completely different. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Jaelin

[CrazyRioter]

I think a spren's fundamental nature is fixed by the nature of the Investiture that created them, unless something like Sja-anat comes along and throws a whole lot of other Investiture at them. So I definitely don't think her fundamental nature can be changed in that way.

Also I object to the idea that all cultivationspren are peaceful, because Cultivation herself has said that her nature encompasses the "thorns" as well.

[Jaelin]

I would think that you would require a whole lot of investiture to repair the damage done to a spren with a broken nahel bond.

There was no implication that cultivation spren are peaceful. Pruning is required for cultivation. 

However, existence as solely a sword for centuries (with a shattered mind) is not conducive to the self identity as a grower of things.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Jaelin

[Solant]

12 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think a spren's fundamental nature is fixed by the nature of the Investiture that created them, unless something like Sja-anat comes along and throws a whole lot of other Investiture at them. So I definitely don't think her fundamental nature can be changed in that way.

I believe this to be true. I'm on mobile, so can't get the wob right now, but I remember reading that while they can change and grow as personalities, at their core they are ideas made sentient, and will always remain true to that nature.

[The Invested Beard]

On my latest read through of the books I'm getting the feeling more and more that being considered as a radiant isn't just about having cracks in your soul. I think every single person has them to an extent and I don't believe the severity is the gauge by which the spren measure who is worthy. Remember, you have to actively say the first oath and not only say it, but mean it. I think it has to do with realizing and working through what that means somehow. Not sure exactly how to put it into words but that's where I'm at with the whole thing.

[CrazyRioter]

On 10/21/2018 at 11:44 PM, Jaelin said:

I would think that you would require a whole lot of investiture to repair the damage done to a spren with a broken nahel bond.

There was no implication that cultivation spren are peaceful. Pruning is required for cultivation. 

However, existence as solely a sword for centuries (with a shattered mind) is not conducive to the self identity as a grower of things.

I think simply forming a nahel bond with her should be what is required to restore her,, no extra investiture required.

It's plausible that she'll have some lingering "scars" from the whole thing, but I don't think it'll change her basic nature.