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[OB] Mayalaran


Leyrann

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2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Can't be - Skar isn't glowing in the Rock PoV chapter and neither is Rock himself (he does so for the first time in that chapter).

Sorry, I couldn't just let it slide. :D Had to check this!

Quote

“Kaladin stopped in line near Lopen. The captain seemed in good spirits today, for which Lunamor took credit. He had, after all, made Kaladin’s breakfast.
“The first step will be to speak the Ideal,” Kaladin said. “I suspect a few of you have already said it. But for the rest, if you wish to be a squire to the Windrunners, you will need to swear it.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer” Pg 808. iBooks. 

Quote

“Teft nodded to himself, chewing on his own chouta. Finally, Skar started into his. It was good, not spicy like a lot of Alethi food, but still good. Flavorful.
“Everyone keeps telling me that I’ll ‘get it soon,’ ” Skar said. “But what if I don’t? There won’t be room in the Windrunners for a lieutenant who has to walk everywhere. I’ll end up cooking lunch with Rock.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer” Pg.995. iBooks. 

Quote

“Stop,” he said, taking the emerald and holding it before her again. “Stop right there. You want to be a Windrunner?”
“More than anything,” she whispered.
“Why?”
“Because I want to soar.”
“Not good enough. Kaladin, he wasn’t thinking about being left out, or how great it would be to fly. He was thinking about saving the rest of us. Saving me. Why do you want to be in the Windrunners?”
“Because I want to help! I want to do something other than stand around, waiting for the enemy to come to us!”
“Well, you have a chance, Lyn. A chance nobody has had for ages, a chance in millions. Either you seize it, and in so doing decide you’re worthy, or you leave and give up.” He pressed the gemstone back down into her hand. “But if you leave, you don’t get to complain. As long as you ”

“keep trying, there’s a chance. When you give up? That’s when the dream dies.”
She met his eyes, closed her fist around the gemstone, and breathed in with a sharp, distinct breath.
Then started glowing.”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer”Pg. 1013. iBooks. 

Quote

“Skar turned around and leaned one hand on the table, watching Lyn’s enthusiasm as her squad of scouts ran up to her. He felt good about what he’d done—strangely good. Excited, even.
“I think I’m going to have to get used to smelly Horneaters, Rock,” Skar said. “I’m thinking of joining your support team.”
“You think I will let you anywhere near cook pot?”
“I might not ever learn to fly.” He squished the part of him that whimpered at that. “I need to come to terms with the fact. So, I’ll have to find another way to help out.”
“Ha. And the fact that you are glowing with Stormlight right now is not at all consideration in decision?”

Fragmento de: Brandon Sanderson. “Oathbringer” Pg. 1014. iBooks. 

So, we can see that, besides being "adopted" by a Radiant and saying the first oath, you need to have the right mindset to reach the stormlight.

In fact, now that I remember, some Bridge 4 members became squires the moment Kaladin said the 3rd oath and flew to the Shattered Plains, so the saying may not be as important as the living. Lopen, Teft, Sigzil, Peet are among the first.

I´ll have to check the moment when Vathah becomes squire to see how it works in different orders. I think he just starts lightweaving...

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56 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I wonder, is it possible that adolin may revive the spren without becoming a radiant? it would make him something different from the others.

I don't see how that's plausible and even if it was, I hope it doesn't happen and he's a normal surgebinder. No need to constantly add things to an already special cast. Radiants are supposed to be amazing and powerful on their own and we already have three with added buffs - Lift, Renarin and Dalinar. Adding to that will only make the average KR feel cheap.

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2 hours ago, Darvys said:

Adolin the youth doesn't quite match the Adolin "i'm only good at swords" we've been seeing, but i guess that's what growing up in Alethkar as a soldier does to you. Still, i get annoyed when Brandon goes out of his way to portray him as slow of thought ( the reaction to Kaladin's joke, really ? ). Not easy to portray varying levels of intellect convincingly, i was glad when he skipped Jasnah's essay and just gave us the readers' reactions.

Young Adolin came across as a very bright, earnest, interested little boy who caught on things very quickly: he is very far from the chull minded simpleton Kaladin describes in WoR. I would however argue this is part of Kaladin being purposefully detrimental towards Adolin in WoR.

There are a lot of things within young Adolin which do not match his older self. For instance, back in WoK, Adolin specifically says he never wanted to be soldier (he says it again in WoR) and he only decided to do so because he wanted to kill enough Parshendis so his father would feel Gavilar's death was avenged and thus go back to whom he was before. Really? First, how can Adolin want Dalinar to be the drunken father he was before? How can he yearn for this? Second, we see in the flashbacks Adolin was soldier since youth. Years prior to Gavilar's death, he already was a soldier. This is in direct contradiction of WoK. It also contradicts Dalinar who says he wished he hadn't been forced to turn Adolin into a soldier as he realized the boy never wanted to be one. This too does not match the flashbacks.

And do not get me started on the age as Adolin's age is never accurate in the flashbacks. I am surprised the beta readers did not catch on it... It literally jumped to my eyes as I was reading it: "But this contradicts the canon from the previous books!".

2 hours ago, Darvys said:

As for Adolin not questioning his lack of Nahel bond, isn't it a thing for him to think of himself as a lesser man than everyone assumes ? If anything attracting a spren is what would throw him off balance. From what i saw in this forum, a lot of you guys want everything in a text you can quote, but some things are just better left unsaid.

Then there's Sadeas, i've been over this a couple times already, but why would you guys expect him to agonize over his death ? The morality of murder ? He butchered hundreds of Parshendi during the war, the act of taking a life isn't what will give him pause, it's the justification of the act, in this case he realizes he did what needed to be done, all he needed was a little time after the fact to settle his nerves, that's what he got. What more do you need ?

There is a lot of things which may or may not be for Adolin, but they are never explored nor really mentioned within the narrative. If it were the case for all characters, then I wouldn't mind it so much, but after spending so much time with Shallan's personality problem, Kaladin's inner monologue and Dalinar focusing onto himself, I found it disheartening nothing, when it comes to Adolin, was touched in a decent manner. So while, sure, I can try to connect the dots, his story will always be less interesting, less complete and less enthralling as he is lacking the layers to really come to life.

Thus, it isn't we all want everything to come into quote, but I wish things were explored in a decent manner when it comes to Adolin. I also wish "Radiants inner problems" weren't made to be worst as the books go by, just as I wish if wouldn't take over so much of the narrative. I disliked what Brandon did to Shallan because now we are stuck with it: it will be a recurrent theme, her and her personalities. She was fine back in WoR, did we really need to create additional issues for Shallan? Issues she will never realistically be able to resolve completely? Why? Why focus everything onto three characters, it is getting old. Anyway. This might be something inherent to Brandon, I don't know, but I never want to hear he treats all of his characters fairly.

As for Sadeas, it isn't we expected him to agonize over it, but we expected him to reflect on it. We expected him to be stressed out, to be anxious wondering if he'd be caught on. When he was asked to investigate the murder, I expect him to perhaps further hide clues, to be really nervous about it. I expected him to wonder what if people found out? I expected him to ponder as to how other people may react. I expected a reaction even if this reaction was not to be angst or anything of the sort. We got almost nothing. He killed a HIghprince. This was presented to us as a Big Deal and the story refused to acknowledge it was a Big Deal. What did I want? Well for once Adolin viewpoints where he deals with it, where he does the investigation, where he worries about it, where he thinks going to Kholinar is going away from this, where he wonders what Dalinar may think of him, where he reacts. ANYTHING but what we've got.

I wanted a story which took the time it needs to acknowledge each character is a human being with reactions and emotions. I did not want a story where the only emotions are reserved for Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar as they look at their navels and as to how sorry their life is. I wanted a story where each character was important in his own personal way, a story which tackle with how people dealt with the events unfolding, not just people going through the motions of doing things without ever being allowed to have a thought unless they are Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. I did not expect the story to become the Radiants psych's wards: this was too much. I understand they have problems, but now they have too many of them, it became boring.

I didn't get that. I got something else. I am still processing how much I actually liked what I've got, but I can definitely say the story I got wasn't a good one for Adolin's character development. It basically ignored he ought to get some to remain interesting.

Edited by maxal
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@maxal Reading you is confusing, you seem to want for Adolin the same things you find so annoying in the main 3's arcs. We can already see from his early appearances that he had some trouble handling the immediate aftermath of the murder, being involved in the investigation would if anything show him how safe he was as there was nothing to link him to the murder; why ask for more navel gazing as you call it ? Their world IS ending. Sure, it wouldn't have hurt to add a pov or two to show all this, but all the clues we need are there. To be honest, i would have been bored if any more attention was given to the murder case, and i don't think it was ever presented as any kind of big deal, Sadeas was killed and Dalinar dealt with it in the only way he could, end of story.

As far as Adolin's arc is concerned, i reserve my disappointement for the role he didn't play in the third part, Brandon only included him there to get him to Shadesmar. But i wouldn't say that he's got no character development, his arc was all about accepting his place in the new world that is emerging, it may be shallow compared to the main characters ( well it's huge if you consider Shallan .... ) but it's enough for me for the moment.

I don't want to go too much off topic and into the other characters' arcs, i'll only say that what you wanted out of this book is pretty much what i got, i think your assessment is tainted by your disappointment in your favorite character's treatment, perhaps some time and a later reread will serve to enhance your opinion of the book.

 

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1 hour ago, Darvys said:

@maxal Reading you is confusing, you seem to want for Adolin the same things you find so annoying in the main 3's arcs. We can already see from his early appearances that he had some trouble handling the immediate aftermath of the murder, being involved in the investigation would if anything show him how safe he was as there was nothing to link him to the murder; why ask for more navel gazing as you call it ? Their world IS ending. Sure, it wouldn't have hurt to add a pov or two to show all this, but all the clues we need are there. To be honest, i would have been bored if any more attention was given to the murder case, and i don't think it was ever presented as any kind of big deal, Sadeas was killed and Dalinar dealt with it in the only way he could, end of story.

As far as Adolin's arc is concerned, i reserve my disappointement for the role he didn't play in the third part, Brandon only included him there to get him to Shadesmar. But i wouldn't say that he's got no character development, his arc was all about accepting his place in the new world that is emerging, it may be shallow compared to the main characters ( well it's huge if you consider Shallan .... ) but it's enough for me for the moment.

I don't want to go too much off topic and into the other characters' arcs, i'll only say that what you wanted out of this book is pretty much what i got, i think your assessment is tainted by your disappointment in your favorite character's treatment, perhaps some time and a later reread will serve to enhance your opinion of the book.

 

I understand your confusion. What I want is less of the main narrative being crafted around the three main Radiants personal issues and more of it being crafted around the various character inter-acting one with another. I grew tired of single arcs centered around either Kaladin, Shallan or Dalinar with very little cross-over, with little inter-character talk. For instance, the fact Adolin murdering Sadeas wasn't explored from the Dalinar's perspective irked me: Dalinar put huge pressure onto Adolin to obey to his codes and, on the day he does, the author makes it so the father only learns the truth after he regained his memories, just to make it a none-issue. This is the short of narrative short-cut which annoys me because it deprives the character from growing together. Brandon said there would be characters who'd think what Adolin did was totally wrong and yet we didn't see it. He said there would be ramifications, but those ramification had nothing to do with Adolin murdering Sadeas: anyone else could have murdered Sadeas to the same effect. This is how I judge if a story arc is worthy or not of the narrative: if I remove the arc from the book, is the story ultimately the same? In this case, the answer is yes. Having Adolin killed Sadeas yielded absolutely no consequences: Sadeas being killed yielded consequences, but the fact Adolin did it, didn't. Hence, choosing Adolin to murder Sadeas was the wrong choice. Nobody would be complaining about the arc if Brandon had chosen anyone else.

I don't want Adolin to graze on his navel for 500 pages, this would be as tiring as reading about Shallan doing it, but I am tired of short-cuts being used when his character is involved. I feel there is a more middle ground to be reached in between Shallan's endless personality issues and Adolin's nearly complete lack of focus. It was not normal to me the character spend an entire book, right after breaking the codes he tried his best to obey, right after he disobeyed the father he was willing to follow into the grave, being so unaffected as if nothing happened. He is perfect! He always says the right thing, always does the right thing, never have second doubts about anything, he always knows what to do, nothing ever gets to him and even when he has a "pseudo arc where he wonders about his place in the world", it is so dim readers hardly believe it even affects him in the first place. He revives Maya just because he's there and nice, it doesn't come at the end of an arc or a quest or efforts or anything. He's just nice, he meets her and oops she is starting to re-awaken. It was a nice arc,I loved the arc, but it felt too easy.

Accepting his place into the new world could have been an arc if Brandon actually wrote it: two or three paragraphs are not an arc. It might have worked if we had seen more of Adolin before, if he had a few additional viewpoints instead of him vanishing from the story, then popping back as a comical relief until he actually got to do something. It was just not complete enough for me. I don't want "clues" to try to "figure it out": I want to read it. I want all characters to feel alive, to feel completed, fleshed out. It started well in part 1, we had clues Adolin was bothered, but then it disappeared. That's my issue: the lack of continuity within his story arc. I felt Brandon started an arc, then he dropped it because it was not convenient only to pick it up later without wrapping it up properly.

I consider the book to have other weaknesses, not just Adolin.

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So, @maxal I have a few comments, but I think this annotation from Mistborn says it best.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/142-the-well-of-ascension-annotations/#e2953

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Sixteen

Vin in her room

This first scene is a classical Brandon scene–a character studying, thinking, and exploring who they are in their own head. Some people find my narrative style–with the thoughts, the conclusions, and the debates in the head–to be a little slow. I can understand that, even if I don't agree.

I like knowing my characters. A chapter like this really works for that, in my opinion. It seems to me that in too many books, you never really know a character's thoughts, feelings, and logic enough to understand why they do what they do. So, I spend time on those things.

This scene is important for the decisions Vin makes about herself. She is not the type of person to second-guess herself. In a way, she shows some of the very things Tindwyl tries to get across to Elend later in the chapter. Vin encounters a problem, mulls over it, then comes to a firm decision to trust herself.

So, I think this is the main point, emphasis mine. You keep making the point that you don't like the characters navel-gazing. The problem is that Brandon disagrees. Navel gazing is his narrative style. That's what he does.

43 minutes ago, maxal said:

What I want is less of the main narrative being crafted around the three main Radiants personal issues and more of it being crafted around the various character inter-acting one with another. I grew tired of single arcs centered around either Kaladin, Shallan or Dalinar with very little cross-over, with little inter-character talk.

 

43 minutes ago, maxal said:

I don't want Adolin to graze on his navel for 500 pages, this would be as tiring as reading about Shallan doing it, but I am tired of short-cuts being used when his character is involved. I feel there is a more middle ground to be reached in between Shallan's endless personality issues and Adolin's nearly complete lack of focus.

 

43 minutes ago, maxal said:

This is how I judge if a story arc is worthy or not of the narrative: if I remove the arc from the book, is the story ultimately the same?

I think these quotes illustrate the problem. To use your examples, if you take the personal issues and navel-gazing out of the stories, they are completely different. The case is the same in the previous books. To some extent, the interactions are incidental. It's part of why some people are annoyed about the Shadolin storyline. Because it ultimately wasn't down to navel-gazing, but dependency on interaction with another character. I am curious to hear your thoughts on Sanderson's other works, because navel-gazing seems to be all anyone does, a lot of the time. It's his preferred style.

43 minutes ago, maxal said:

I don't want "clues" to try to "figure it out": I want to read it. I want all characters to feel alive, to feel completed, fleshed out.

I think this might just be an issue of personal taste, then. Because for a lot of people, the characters don't feel alive if they don't navel-gaze. For some people, hunting clues is why they read in the first place.

I am not trying to demean your opinion in any way, and I am not trying to offend. I apologize if I have done so. But there are times when I feel like we're reading two Cosmeres.

Edited by FuzzyWordsmith
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9 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I think these quotes illustrate the problem. To use your examples, if you take the personal issues and navel-gazing out of the stories, they are completely different. The case is the same in the previous books. To some extent, the interactions are incidental. It's part of why some people are annoyed about the Shadolin storyline. Because it ultimately wasn't down to navel-gazing, but dependency on interaction with another character. I am curious to hear your thoughts on Sanderson's other works, because navel-gazing seems to be all anyone does, a lot of the time. It's his preferred style.

I think this might just be an issue of personal taste, then. Because for a lot of people, the characters don't feel alive if they don't navel-gaze. For some people, hunting clues is why they read in the first place.

I am not trying to demean your opinion in any way, and I am not trying to offend. I apologize if I have done so. But there are times when I feel like we're reading two Cosmeres.

I think I am doing a poor job out of explaining myself. All I have been trying, perhaps very badly, is I find Adolin's story arc very lacking considering we are reading a story involving a great deal of navel grazing from about every single character. I felt Shallan's head problems took over too much of the narrative (I actually love Shallan's character, but I really hate Veil and this orphan arcs really lasted too long), but I don't think I have said it ought to be removed completely. I might have said I wished Brandon had not go there (as I said, I hate Veil, I don't want to ever have to read her, but I will), but he did: I certainly did not say the story would be the same if we were to remove it. I however do feel it could have been shorten and be less present, it could have given other characters more place to breath in while still telling the same narrative. Having all characters being decently fleshed out always makes a story stronger, not weaker but Adolin got little of it as all the page time was used on "other things" and looking back at those "other things" I was thinking the personality arc could have been a bit thinner. Overall, I felt a lot of part 3 dragged... not the palace attack, but before.

As such, I would never want Adolin to get a story similar to the one Shallan got in OB because it turned out being too much for me. I would however appreciate if his character actually came across with a bit more substance then he did in this book. It is even truer I felt Brandon did wonder with other characters, such as Venli, with only a limited page time, so why does Adolin still reads as so shallow, so thin? What's wrong here? I don't have all the answers, but I just don't understand why the book can decently fleshed an insane number of characters, both major and minor, and yet miss out on Adolin. So why is it, when he does get viewpoints, so few of them are actually about about him? 

When I said, if a story arc can be removed without affecting the narrative, I was referring to Adolin murdering Sadeas. Have anyone else murder Sadeas and the narrative is exactly the same. That's what I meant: a useless promise of an arc. My perspective is if you use an important character to perform an important action, then you have to write what it means for the character. If the only important aspect of the narrative was for the action to happen, then use another character, not the one everyone expects to read more of. As I said, nobody would be complaining about the arc had Brandon used someone else.

The romance arc was fine for me, but it could have used more inter-character talk, it could have been spiced up, but I was fine with it. This isn't an aspect of the story I have criticized. 

I would hazard a guess people hunting for clues are in it for Cosmere related clues, not so much character development ;)

I have no issues with Brandon's other work. I find Mistborn enjoyable, but lacking the complexity of Stormlight. I loved the Rithmatist which I thought was an adorable story. Elantris was a cute story I had fund reading even if it was early work. The Reckoners weren't my personal cup of tea. None of those books however put me within the situation I am now: I never felt Brandon wasn't purposefully not developing a given character nor that he was falling on expectations: OB is the first book I have this impression.

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Just wanted to chime in regarding my squire theory real quick

New WoB

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

How was Shallan able to bond with Pattern before she was broken?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

She was open to him even before she went through a lot of that turmoil

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I thought everybody had to be broken in order to...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, that's their philosophy in-world. But I'm not going to say whether it's correct or wrong... I will imply that there are other means as well.

 

Maybe you're interested in this, @Ookla, the Incalculable

Interesting thought in general, regarding how Adolin might bond with Maya.

Edited by SLNC
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@maxal Wanting Adolin to get more meaningful screen time is understandable but i don't think that's likely to happen now that we have at least four more radiants who need to share the spotlight, like you i would have gladly traded some Shallan povs in part 3 for more insight on Adolin. I wasn't really bothered by what we got, since i had no expectations related to the murder plotline, i think it was handled realisticaly.

I also disagree with the idea that anyone could have murdered Sadeas to the same effect, the only way his death could ever have an impact was if it was at the hand of someone he's hurt and we care about, Dalinar would never do it, neither would Bridge 4 who had moved on, all that left was the Kholin with anger management issues. You say that Adolin was unaffected by the act, i'd counter that it cemented in his mind that he couldn't live up to his father's standards and expectations which in turn eased his acceptance of being the underdog from now on.

Though i would point out that we still don't know how various characters will react to the reveal, it happened too late in the book, and with everything going on at the time it would have been weird to see people reacting to that of all things, if next book no one brings it up or there's no noticeable change in everyone's interactions with him, then i'll cede the point. The timeskip will make this difficult, so if there is a backlash i expect it to be subtle by then, which is fine by me. Note that i wasn't bothered by how late the reveal happened, it made sense for him to only blurt it out when he was backed in a corner, otherwise why risk upending his father's efforts at unification ? 

I said that Adolin's "development" in this book was enough for me, because other than more angst about the murder (which to be honest would have made me lose some respect for the guy) i didn't see much more potential than what we got. And if anything, OB showed that he still has room, as the story unfolds, to shine and grow.

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16 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Sorry, I couldn't just let it slide. :D Had to check this!

So, we can see that, besides being "adopted" by a Radiant and saying the first oath, you need to have the right mindset to reach the stormlight.

In fact, now that I remember, some Bridge 4 members became squires the moment Kaladin said the 3rd oath and flew to the Shattered Plains, so the saying may not be as important as the living. Lopen, Teft, Sigzil, Peet are among the first.

I´ll have to check the moment when Vathah becomes squire to see how it works in different orders. I think he just starts lightweaving...

in WotK after he spoke the second ideal there some hint to the starting squire bond

The bridgemen gathered around Teft, amazed. His wounded arm didn’t seem to hurt as much as it should. “He’s like a part of the wind itself,” Drehy said.

Chapter 68: ESHONAI

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2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Just wanted to chime in regarding my squire theory real quick

New WoB

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418

Maybe you're interested in this, @Ookla, the Incalculable

Interesting thought in general, regarding how Adolin might bond with Maya.

This is interesting. I had forgot about this WoB. Any idea what those other means are? Is it just me or this is suggesting Shallan the child was not really broken nor cracked?

2 hours ago, Darvys said:

@maxal Wanting Adolin to get more meaningful screen time is understandable but i don't think that's likely to happen now that we have at least four more radiants who need to share the spotlight, like you i would have gladly traded some Shallan povs in part 3 for more insight on Adolin. I wasn't really bothered by what we got, since i had no expectations related to the murder plotline, i think it was handled realisticaly.

I did not say it was likely Adolin was going to get better character development into future books. I said I was disappointed to realize OB was about all we were going to get for his character as I find it most insufficient. By insufficient, I do not mean page time (more would always be better), but quality. As I said, characters such as Venli had great character development within less page time, but Adolin never gets decent fleshing out.

2 hours ago, Darvys said:

I also disagree with the idea that anyone could have murdered Sadeas to the same effect, the only way his death could ever have an impact was if it was at the hand of someone he's hurt and we care about, Dalinar would never do it, neither would Bridge 4 who had moved on, all that left was the Kholin with anger management issues. You say that Adolin was unaffected by the act, i'd counter that it cemented in his mind that he couldn't live up to his father's standards and expectations which in turn eased his acceptance of being the underdog from now on.

Anyone could have murdered Sadeas: Amaram could have murdered Sadeas, Iyatil could have murdered Sadeas, a great deal lot of people could have murdered Sadeas because whom murdered him ended up not mattering. What mattered is he was murdered. Had Adolin not murdered Sadeas, he would have still be put in charge of the investigation, he would have still done his best to find the culprit, Shallan would have still gotten involved and go into her Re-Shephir arc, Adolin would have still met Ialai with Shallan, Ialai would have still accused Dalinar, Adolin would have still tried to defend his father, the whole Sadeas army would have still believed Dalinar did it even if he didn't. 

The narrative remains intact, the fact Adolin himself did it, played no factor whatsoever. 

The fact he thinks he might not live up to his father's standard was three sentences within the entire book and they caused no significant impact to the main narrative. Had Adolin not think he was living up to his father standard, he would have still go to Kholinar and to Shadesmar. He would still get stabbed, then fight the thunderclast, he would have still revived Maya. He would have still refused to be king, but he would have used arguably another reason as the reason he refused is not just because he killed Sadeas, Dalinar doesn't allow him to back away on this only, he ultimately refuses by stating "nobody would listen to him".

There is no development where Adolin accepts he is an underdog. Had he not kill Sadeas, he would have still told Shallan he was no God. She would have still tell him that's the best thing which could have happened to him.

So barring about three sentences the entire book would remain exactly the same had anyone else killed Sadeas. No changes at all, hence it was a bad narrative choice. It had ZERO consequences onto Adolin's character, character progression and character development. Nothing which happens to Adolin afterward is linked to the murder, every single thing which happens would have happened in exactly the same way had he not kill Sadeas.

2 hours ago, Darvys said:

Though i would point out that we still don't know how various characters will react to the reveal, it happened too late in the book, and with everything going on at the time it would have been weird to see people reacting to that of all things, if next book no one brings it up or there's no noticeable change in everyone's interactions with him, then i'll cede the point. The timeskip will make this difficult, so if there is a backlash i expect it to be subtle by then, which is fine by me. Note that i wasn't bothered by how late the reveal happened, it made sense for him to only blurt it out when he was backed in a corner, otherwise why risk upending his father's efforts at unification ? 

At this point in time, hoping the next book will have other characters react to it, considering the one year time gap, is shoving clouds into the sky. The arc is done. For my part, my trust into Brandon will forever be broken: I always had faith he would pull out a decent arc, I feared it may not be centered on Adolin enough, but I never thought he would go for the "nothing arc". That was a crushing disappointment.

Brandon made it happen late on purpose: this way it made no sense for characters to react about it and he didn't want the characters to react about it because it didn't fit within the narrative he had planned. That's why I am saying he made the wrong choice by having Adolin murdered Sadeas. The murder had a small impact, but not whom did it whereas all readers thought the fact it was Adolin would actually cause some ruckus. It didn't, great disappointment, hence bad narrative choice.

As for Adolin blurting out in the end, it made sense he said it then, the problem is this revelation does not come at the end of an arc where Adolin worries over the consequences, where he is afraid of being found out, where he is afraid of telling his father, where he weights it down inside of himself. Not once does Adolin mutters to himself how terrible it would be for the truth to come out: he isn't even bothered by it. That's why I am arguing Adolin's story arc is incomplete and not satisfying: this was left out.

2 hours ago, Darvys said:

I said that Adolin's "development" in this book was enough for me, because other than more angst about the murder (which to be honest would have made me lose some respect for the guy) i didn't see much more potential than what we got. And if anything, OB showed that he still has room, as the story unfolds, to shine and grow.

Adolin's development was boring to me because he didn't get any. He came across as the guy who always unaffected by events, the guy who always knows best, the guy who always knows what to do, the guy who never makes a mistake, the guy who always says the right thing, the guy who is essentially perfect. If some readers enjoy reading this, it is their prerogative, but I personally prefer characters which look more human, which have flaws, not flaws such as "sometimes I am too nice", characters who have hardships, who do not have all of the answers and who do not always make the right choice. 

Adolin came across not as human being, but a the shining beacon of perfection: he has literally NO flaw and that's not interesting.

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Just a point about what Adolin wanted; he wanted to be a duelist, not a soldier.  Duels do not normally go to the death. Due to Sadeas however even this began to change. I felt there were many of Adolin's thoughts about killing Sadeas.  He wasn't overcome by what he had done because he felt this was the only way to save his family and friends.  I suspect a soldier who has killed in battle many times doesn't have the same gut response as someone who has never killed. He wasn't agonizing he was contemplating.

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9 minutes ago, timasp said:

Honestly, I think that Adolin Killing Sadeas isn't a source of brokenness from him, but a symptom. People don't just randomly go stabby stab stab at people that annoy them

I had an odd feeling as I was typing something else into another thread...  I thought of Dalinar being a drunk father, I thought of how he treated Adolin, which everyone assumes is ten times better than Renarin because, at least, he doesn't ignore him and... something clicked.

Dalinar rebuffs Adolin constantly, he talks down to him, he criticizes him, he gives him stern orders over stern orders and what does Adolin do? He puts on a strong face and tries harder... And then it clicked: Adolin takes those moments as "attention", as "love", he is constantly being pushed away, nothing he ever does is good enough for Dalinar and yet he never rebels. He just keeps on trying.

It made me think of those abused women videos I watched in High School... The husband always started up nice, he seduced the woman, he appeared as the most amazing man in the world (Dalinar and Adolin in Jah Keved). Then, the husband "changed". He was constantly talking down to the wife, always criticizing her, never giving her attention unless it was to say something detrimental and the woman always reacted by trying harder, by promising she'll do better the next time. Then, the husband will do one kindness (Dalinar agrees to go watch Adolin duel) and she beams happily, reassured in keeping on entertaining this relationship as she had proof the husband did love her as she did love him.

Storms, it was just the same as the 15 years old Adolin's scene... So identical. I had an odd feeling when I read the scene now I know why, I had seen it before, but within a completely different context. It was the exact same story.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/15/2017 at 1:49 PM, lookingglass said:

As we all know "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead." B)

On the topic of dead spren didn't anyone find it weird that the spren's eyes were scratched out and when you kill someone with a shardblade their eyes burn? Is it the spren imitating what happens to humans in the physical realm o something else? Eyes are windows to the soul after all, so does that mean the line between a spren's spiritual realm is broken?

Please, please, please, tell me Brandon has a cameo in book 4 by Miracle Max, come to check Maya's pockets for loose change.

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On 11/19/2017 at 3:48 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

No. The brokenness isn't a theory, its a known fact. Its not just for SA either, its for the whole cosmere. You need to be broken so the investure can enter your soul.

 

So I came across this WoB yesterday and noticed 10 more pages I didn't want to sort through to see if this has been shared or not, but turns out brokeness isn't an exclusive means of forming a nahel bond. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418 

edit: (and now I see above this very WoB linked/quoted at least 3 times lol)

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2 hours ago, humanchaos said:

So I came across this WoB yesterday and noticed 10 more pages I didn't want to sort through to see if this has been shared or not, but turns out brokeness isn't an exclusive means of forming a nahel bond. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418 

edit: (and now I see above this very WoB linked/quoted at least 3 times lol)

In my defense when I wrote my post that WoB hadn't been published yet :P. In any case I'm taking it with a grain of salt, as there are at least 3 other WoBs across the years stating the opposite. So either it was a slight mistake, or something unsual is going on in Roshar, or updated cannon. 

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44 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

In my defense when I wrote my post that WoB hadn't been published yet :P. In any case I'm taking it with a grain of salt, as there are at least 3 other WoBs across the years stating the opposite. So either it was a slight mistake, or something unsual is going on in Roshar, or updated cannon. 

Or as has been hypothesized in this thread earlier, taking that WoB into account, it's possible that while someone is young enough and their spiritweb is still expanding/growing, a bond/power can form into the spiritweb as it develops without the need of cracks. Like a tree growing around something that has been tied to it. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

Or as has been hypothesized in this thread earlier, taking that WoB into account, it's possible that while someone is young enough and their spiritweb is still expanding/growing, a bond/power can form into the spiritweb as it develops without the need of cracks. Like a tree growing around something that has been tied to it. 

Ah yes, there are so many new/updated theories around I often forget some parts. 

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1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Ah yes, there are so many new/updated theories around I often forget some parts. 

Man... Everything is moving so quickly right now it's impossible to keep up. 

OB blew up everything we thought we knew. 

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On the matter of brokenness and the new WoB, my impressions are somewhat different than other readers.

Based on what we know, it is safe to theorize the sprens needs a suitable human vessel "open" to the investiture required to form a Nahel Bond. The easiest way to achieve this openness is through emotional breaking of the mind in one way or another, but this new WoB seems to indicate there is more to it. I would thus argue having crippling mental illness or a broken mind is not enough: you need to be open to receive the investiture. Just because a given individual is "broken" does not mean he will be willing to form a Nahel Bond with a spren: he may not want to reforge himself, he may not wish to be welcoming for a spren to move in, despite having the required "mental characteristics". 

Characters such as Lopen and Teft have showed us there is a "willingness" involved to becoming a Radiant. This willingness can be so strong it opens the mind sufficiently for the Nahel bond to form even if no "mind breaking" hardships were experienced. A character such as Lopen really seem to fall within this category: he wanted it so bad, he genuinely open his mind to receive a spren. I also agree with @Calderis children's mind are surely more manipulable and have an easier time to form a Nahel Bond.

Thus, can a character such as Adolin welcome the Nahel Bond despite potentially not having a "broken mind"? I think not, because even with this new WoB, he does not meet the "willingness" criteria it seems to add. In short, Adolin does not believe he is worthy of becoming a Radiant, he does not believe he is good enough for it: he is not actively seeking it. Chances of him starting to genuinely want it currently are slim to none. 

My thoughts are, if Adolin is going to revive Maya, he'll do it after breaking down: not just because it makes a much better story arc, but also because the character, as he is written, does not share Lopen's enthusiasm towards Radiant nor his seer desire to become one nor his optimism. 

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  • 7 months later...

The only issue I have with this is that he isn't broken. I don't accept murdering sadeas as "breaking"him. Not only does he have no remorse for the act, it's just not enough. 

I think it will be something else. Maybe finding out the fate of his mother? I feel like knowing father killed your mother would mess anyone up. 

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2 hours ago, Shalon Smith said:

The only issue I have with this is that he isn't broken. I don't accept murdering sadeas as "breaking"him. Not only does he have no remorse for the act, it's just not enough. 

I think it will be something else. Maybe finding out the fate of his mother? I feel like knowing father killed your mother would mess anyone up. 

Just going to insert my standard rant here. 

On 1/23/2018 at 4:28 PM, Calderis said:

To say that Adolin isn't broken disregards everything we've learned of his life. 

He lost his mother as a teenager. He lost thousands of men, many of which were friends at the Tower. The emotional roller coaster that was the four on one duel. The severe fear and paranoia he showed after Szeth's attack on Dalinar, pushing himself to the point of exhaustion to protect his father. He snapped enough to kill Sadeas due to his own emotional strain. 

Adolin is only unbroken when viewed in comparison to the main characters, which have been through such extremes that if their experiences were normal for Radiants, there would never have been Radiants in the thousands. 

Add to that his need to bury himself in work that he had no need to do at the beginning of OB, and his repeated questioning of his self worth... 

I will never understand this line of argumentation. Being broken doesn't mean you have lasting psychological issues. Even if that were the case, he still does. They just aren't as prominent as we see in the others. 

Edited by Calderis
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