[OB] Mayalaran

[bo.montier]

On 11/27/2017 at 10:54 AM, Ookla the Mulkfather said:

We also have Teft.  That man has been broken most of his life, apparently. He reported his parents and they died. He's been on fireweed for years.  He's quite a bit older than Kaladin, so he has apparently been broken for a long time.  He only just recently, apparently, attracted a spren.  Renarin doesn't seem to have bonded his spren until very recently, though his brokenness may be life long.  Dalinar definitely didn't bond the Stormfather until very recently, though his brokenness stems at least to his visit to the Valley some years ago.  So I don't think you can say Adolin must already have a spren if he is broken.

In any case, given Syl's reaction to anyone who carries a shardblade, you can make the inference that at least part of the reason Adolin doesn't have a spren is because he bears a dead shardblade.  They're generally going to shy away from him and it's possible that this is so much the case that the only way he was ever going to become Radiant is by reviving the spren of his dead blade, unless he divested himself of the blade first.

I'd challenge you here, because Dalinar seems to have started bonding the SF prior to giving up his blade, as evidenced by 1) the visions and 2) when he blonded the blade brought with Taln at the end of WoR he felt uncomfortable, it felt wrong

A lot of people have theorized that the blade feeling wrong has to do with him beginning to be connected to the SF.

[MistbornAlpaca]

I'm not sure if this's been mentioned in this thread before, but I'm not going to read through all 13 pages, so please forgive me and disregard this if it's already been mentioned.

Anyway, becoming an Edgedancer would be sooooo poignant for Adolin, specifically because of the oaths. I mean, remembering those who have been forgotten? That would be so cool after he has murdered Sadeas and re-awakened a dead (and forgotten) spren, then bonded it. 

[Mulk]

Just now, bo.montier said:

I'd challenge you here, because Dalinar seems to have started bonding the SF prior to giving up his blade, as evidenced by 1) the visions and 2) when he blonded the blade brought with Taln at the end of WoR he felt uncomfortable, it felt wrong

A lot of people have theorized that the blade feeling wrong has to do with him beginning to be connected to the SF.

I don't have a problem with anything you said.  Hell, I agree with all of it. There's just a world of difference between what the Stormfather is and what almost any other spren is right now.  He is partly Honor, infused with the shard's essence in a way, with a divine directive he cannot ignore to find someone suitable to give the visions to, to bond to a Bondsmith.  Apparently the Stormfather wanted someone powerful, with authority and might and influence as his choice.  Well, the most powerful from a pure might standpoint are in Alethkar, and the greatest of those are of the Kholin household currently.  And even he freaks out when Dalinar is holding a blade after the bond is formalized.  If the Stormfather, with divine essence and directive, will not allow his Bondsmith to hold a dead spren blade, how much more so those who are not so directly tied and bound as he is?

A part of me wonders if the Stormfather picked them because historically, the Alethi were (at least according to one of the visions) the ones who maintained the arts of war so that humans are ready for the next Desolation.  I don't know. Maybe we'll find out.  But if I'm right, then the people he wanted were all shardbearers and thus he had to just grit his teeth and go for it.

[+robardin]

Also guilty of not reading through 13 pages of a thread I've just picked up on (I've been away from this forum for a few weeks), but:

Is there any evidence that Adolin's Plate might also come from Maya, originally? Might that be yet another factor in his being able to partially revive a bond with her, along with meeting her "in person" in the Cognitive Realm?

I tried finding a description of Adolin's set of Shardplate, but all I could readily determine was that (a) he inherited it from his mother, and (b) that he has, three times and all on purpose, done a Number Two in it while in the thick of battle.

"Dead" Shardplate is always a dull gray, though, unless painted otherwise, and we only have a few visions of Dalinar's to go by as to what "living" Plate would look like, so I'm not sure if we could identify Adolin's Plate as being from a Cultivationspren anyway.

[Calderis]

@robardin there isn't confirmation, but Dalinar sees a set of players that he thinks is Adolin's in his Purelake vision, and it's glowing a red color. Combined with the apparent use of abrasion that let's the Radiant move through the water more easily, it appears to be Dustbringer plate.

Not really confirmation, as we can't be sure it actually is Adolin's plate, but it's the best we've got as far as I know. 

[Aleph-Naught]

There's a lot of speculation about what "being broken" entails. But I honestly view it as akin to something like, "reasonable suspicion" in the law, i.e. a laughably low bar to pass.

I can imagine numerous reasons why Adolin is, most likely, broken enough for a Nahel bond; maybe some or most would view it as a trifling detail or event but we're not here to compete in the pain olympics/judge what pain qualifies as being bad enough to "break" someone. This seems especially important in the cosmere because of the role identity plays. Maybe all Adolin needs to do is see himself as broken (like how Kaladin's scar won't heal because he views it as part of who he is) and that's enough.

It would be interesting to see if that became some source of contention in the books, e.g. Adolin gets bonded but some people resent it because they can't comprehend what is broken about him; even in the various strains of human misery there can be bizarre social stratification.

[echaozh]

How is the lopen more broken than Adolin? I can't see how the lopen is broken. Adolin is definitely broken enough. Shallan was broken enough before she killed her own mother as a child.

[PhineasGage]

Wow so many good points!

On 11/29/2017 at 4:35 PM, Darvys said:

For the troups, they way i understood it, is that Nergaoul overwhelmed them with the Thrill and in that state of mind they were somewhat forcibly fused with voidspren ( Kaladin notes a whole army of spren disappearing not just the huge unmade ).

So I thought those weren't "proper" bonds because they disappeared after Nergaoul was captured and the men stopped fighting and just sat there howling. I thinnk it was a forced "bond" rather than a true Nahel bond. Perhaps that is what makes someone a voidbringer - that they are forcibly corrupted by Odium?

On 11/29/2017 at 4:35 PM, Darvys said:

How would the spren know that a candidate can even form a bond, unless it was somehow visible from the cognitive realm ?

Indeed - and "visible" might mean different things to a spren. We don't get a PoV from Syl or Pattern so it is possible they view Shadesmar very differently from the humans. They likely also view it differently to each other.

On 11/29/2017 at 5:01 PM, bo.montier said:

While I don't know if it carries over, people on Scadrial can snap from a good beating. Maybe we shouldn't be so hung up on emotional breaking. It could just be the main characters that have such significant emotional trauma. Lopen could have "broken" when he lost his arm. 
It could ALSO be that squires don't have to go through the same trauma as their KR. It could ALSO be that people who hold a dead Blade can go through yet another different process, that doesn't require the same type of breaking...

Snapping from a beating iirc is temporary? or makes you into a misting rather than a full mistborn. Can't quite remember - its not enough to get permanant power from I remembeber. I do agree that squires might make things easier - for one thing they've already started living the ideals. Perhaps that is the point - you have to live the ideals or be broken to start the bonding process. If you aren't doing either, then no bond?

On 11/29/2017 at 5:33 PM, SLNC said:

Maybe that prepares the Spiritweb to accept a Nahel Bond through the Connection to the Knight Radiant. Kind of like burning Lerasium rewrites the Spiritweb to give Mistborn powers without Snapping.

Oh that could work - I can't remember the details of rewriting the spiritweb tho - could you summarise or link me to an explanantion?

On 11/29/2017 at 5:35 PM, Dreamstorm said:

Maya first exhibits awareness immediately after Adolin is stabbed in the gut, so perhaps that was the short amount of time where Adolin's spiritual web was cracked enough to let her in.  Then once she's in, the bond can grow from there.

Possibly - or of course it could be a temporary thing ? Being in shadesamr + pain? Her awareness in the pRealm may be to do with Dalinar's perpendicularity? That may allow for permanency but it doesn't guarantee it. I doubt Adolin will bond between OB and SA4 as there is a year timeskip and we are sure to see at least some of it. 

On 11/29/2017 at 7:08 PM, bo.montier said:

A lot of people have theorized that the blade feeling wrong has to do with him beginning to be connected to the SF.

I agree - it mirrors how Renarin grimaces when he first takes his blade. I don't think it is that he is hearing the screams then but he feels the "wrongness".

On 11/29/2017 at 7:16 PM, Ookla the Mulkfather said:

If the Stormfather, with divine essence and directive, will not allow his Bondsmith to hold a dead spren blade, how much more so those who are not so directly tied and bound as he is?

Wouldn't it be the other way round? He forced himself to bond someone with a blade so feel more vociferous than a normal spren would who could choose someone with a blade? The lack of freedom would make him really struggle with the idea of being bonded to someone also bonded to a dead-eye.

On 11/30/2017 at 5:44 AM, robardin said:

Is there any evidence that Adolin's Plate might also come from Maya, originally? Might that be yet another factor in his being able to partially revive a bond with her, along with meeting her "in person" in the Cognitive Realm?

I tried finding a description of Adolin's set of Shardplate, but all I could readily determine was that (a) he inherited it from his mother, and (b) that he has, three times and all on purpose, done a Number Two in it while in the thick of battle.

So as said elsewhere the plate that may be Adolin's glows red and is worn by someone using abrasion. Edgedancers are associated with diamond, dustbringers are associated with ruby. On the other hand, the fact that the only cultivationspren we know of looked at Iriali people exclusvely may support this idea because Adolin's mother was from that area of Roshar too.

On 11/30/2017 at 9:24 AM, Aleph-Naught said:

Maybe all Adolin needs to do is see himself as broken (like how Kaladin's scar won't heal because he views it as part of who he is) and that's enough.

I like this idea. Perception is everything in the cognitive realm. It also fits with how Kaladin really sees himself as he bonds more losely to Syl. 

27 minutes ago, echaozh said:

How is the lopen more broken than Adolin? I can't see how the lopen is broken. Adolin is definitely broken enough. Shallan was broken enough before she killed her own mother as a child.

As I said further upthread - if we believe that you have to be broken to get a Nahel bond, Lopen must be broken because he has one. It doesn't matter how we view him. 

If nahel bond = broken then anyone with a Nahel bond must be sufficiently broken to have one.

That said, being broken is likely not enough to get the bond so presumably the "nahel bond also = living the 1st ideal". Unless there is another reason for Adolin to not have a bond (discussed above) he currently does not meet minimum requirements because otherwise he'd already have one.

I think we need more idea for the "minimum requirements". It may vary between orders. Whilst I do believe that being broken is one of them, perhaps we should consider it being necessary but not sufficient to form a Nahel bond. (see explanation of necessary/sufficient philosophy here: http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hausman/341/Skill/nec-suf.htm) 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh that could work - I can't remember the details of rewriting the spiritweb tho - could you summarise or link me to an explanantion?

Okay, Lerasium, Preservation's godmetal, can be ingested (which bascially is the same as being burned) by anyone in the Cosmere and it rewrites the persons spritual DNA.

Note: A lot of the Spiritual Realm is still very mysterious, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

The spiritual DNA (or Spiritweb) is basically what is a person's aspect in the Spiritual Realm and is inherent to this person's home Shardworld and most manifestations of Investiture are reliant on the spiritual DNA. (eg. Nalthians all have access to Breath, because it is written inside their spiritual DNA) It is passed on like normal DNA. Hemalurgy, for instance, works by taking out parts of a person's Spiritweb, which grant abilities, into a spike and grafting these parts into the spiked person's Spiritweb. Now, Allomancy, as we know, is a hereditary trait, which needs some immense trauma (eg a beating) to activate during Final Empire-era Scadrial, Harmony later changed that, but we don't know what Snapping entails now. Burning Lerasium completely rewrites a person's Spiritweb to give full Mistborn powers without the need to Snap.

The Nahel bond is thought to be a "non-invasive form of Hemalurgy", which is why the Radiant's Spiritweb needs to be broken to accept the spren to fill those gaps (grafting themselves into the Radiant's Spiritweb) and to grant Surgebinding, kind of like Snapping involved a trauma to somehow break the Spiritweb, which in turn activates the already inherited Allomantic powers. My idea is, that squires build up a Spiritual Connection to the Radiant, by following them and living by their same Ideals, which grants them Surges as long as they are close, but as a side effect also changes/rewrites their Spiritweb in a way (like burning Lerasium does), that a Nahel bond can form without the Spiritweb needing to have to be 'broken'.

It is just an idea.

Edited December 1, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

It is just an idea.

I like it - it would explain why Lopen and Teft are able to gain powers now but didn't get them earlier - they weren't ready in some way but by becoming squires it helped them get there. 

I just had a thought regarding this, what if it isn't being "broken" that matters so much as "being broken but looking to fix yourself". Teft only really seems to get somewhere once he wants to mend? Same with Lopen to an extent - maybe it is the search for redemption that matters? 

I am not sure I have any specific evidence except that we have less obviously "broken" people be KR and the order they attract could relate to the way they try to fix themselves? For example, Kaladin wants to defend others to make up for the fact he failed Tien, Jasnah wants to prevent the desolation using her intellect after she had a period of lunacy. Shallan uses lies to "fix" herself (via dissociation) and uses them to tell possible truths to people round her. Dalinar wants to unite people because he divided them in his youth. 

Teft failed his family and Bridge 4 then accepts that he needs to work to make up for that. I think it may work. Perhaps this is why Adolin hasn't "snapped"? He might remember the forgotten etc but he seems pretty ok with who he is. Without looking to change himself, he can't open himself up to a bond? He would have to "break" then look for a way to mend himself - presumably by using the principles of loving/giving for Edgedancers if we go down that route?

[SirKay]

On 11/24/2017 at 0:42 PM, KC Hammer said:

While Adolin has shown a couple instances of remembering those who have been forgotten, in general I don't think he fits the personality required for an Edgedancer. Perhaps another order. Even if he revives Maya I don't think he will actually bond her. I have no backing for this just a feeling.

 

On 11/25/2017 at 8:54 AM, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, there is something that has been really really bugging me this whole thread. This conversation about Adolin possibly fitting as an Edgedancer. Would it be happening if Maya wasn't an Edgedancer blade/spren? Imagine a scenario where Maya's plot thread is identical, instead Maya is an Honorspren instead of a Cultivationspren. Or a Lightspren. In that case, would the thread go about determining if Adolin features characteristics of those orders? Arguments can be made.

For the record, I was thinking Adolin as an Edgedancer would make most sense before I noticed anything about what kind of spren Maya was.

Adolin helped the prostitute in WoR. He socialized with a lot of the Kholin soldiers, and later the bridgemen. He doesn't bat an eye at Shallan's significantly lower status, he looks out for Renarin, he gets along with Wit. And bonding a dead spren is pretty much the pinnacle of remembering the forgotten. Maya is about as forgotten as it gets. Especially since Adolin was starting to care about her before he even met her in the Cognitive Realm. (Also Evi sounds pretty forgotten/ignored, not just formerly by Dalinar but nobody else really talks about her outside the family, when you'd think there'd be some things like maybe Sadeas mentioning her from time to time to get under Dalinar's skin.) He was much nicer if a bit patronizing to Kaladin as a random bridgeman than as suddenly a captain. Adolin very clearly does a lot to stick up for the underdog in particular.

He does have some notable things in common with Lift; his fear of becoming highprince or king sounds a lot like Lift's fear of being "eaten" by the Azish court and having things be expected of her. They both don't want to be seriously responsible or have commitments tying them down. They both have little regard for rules and do some ethically dubious things at times.

Edgedancers are described as refined and beautiful. Wyndle certainly values aesthetic concerns enough. And you have Adolin, who insists on looking fabulous in an occupied city and reads fashion magazines regularly.

Also, Evi's high regard of the Nightwatcher (and how much of a primary role she had in raising Adolin, and how much he's indicated as taking after her) does sound to me like it'd make a lot of sense/be narratively fitting for Adolin to bond a Cultivation spren rather than any other.

On the subject of how Maya might be revived, considering what spren are, my best theory would be that knowing/envisioning (or re-envisioning) them would have to be a part of it. I think it's going to be like, Adolin talking to the Blade so much and then meeting Maya in the Cognitive Realm was enough for him to start thinking of her as a person, and due to how spren work, that's gradually making her more of a person. So I'd think if there's a lasting flaw in Maya or the bond, it would be her not having the even vaguely returning memories of the other spren because of not really being the same Maya as before, more a pieced together Maya-as-imagined-by-Adolin.

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, SirKay said:

He doesn't bat an eye at Shallan's significantly lower status,

Shallan is 4th Dahn, he is 2nd or 3rd so she'd not that much lower. Most of the women he courts are likely at the same level as she is. The only difference is her nationality to make her less "appealing" as a match - but he'd insulted all the local girls.

4 minutes ago, SirKay said:

Also Evi sounds pretty forgotten/ignored, not just formerly by Dalinar but nobody else really talks about her outside the family, when you'd think there'd be some things like maybe Sadeas mentioning her from time to time to get under Dalinar's skin

Amaram mentions her once to Adolin in the first chapter of Part 2 iirc. Also, she's been dead at least 6 years. Not to be funny, but people don't bring up the death of a loved one to someone after that length of time very often. I do agree that Dalinar having forgotten her is suggestive, but I don't think it matters that much that other people don't talk about her much.

5 minutes ago, SirKay said:

They both don't want to be seriously responsible or have commitments tying them down. They both have little regard for rules and do some ethically dubious things at times.

I am not so sure it is ok to equate murder with stealing food. Lift specifically says she isn't going to hurt anyone when she enters the Palace in Azir.  Adolin on the other hand isn't sure whether he should feel "ashamed or proud" about killing Sadeas. Lift is also a child so her refusing responsibility is fair. On top of that she accepts some because she goes back to help Gawx because she is the only one who can. She doesn't want to be eaten by the Azish because she doesn't want to lose who she is. Adolin doesn't want to be king because he doesn't want the responsibility.

6 minutes ago, SirKay said:

On the subject of how Maya might be revived, considering what spren are, my best theory would be that knowing/envisioning (or re-envisioning) them would have to be a part of it. I think it's going to be like, Adolin talking to the Blade so much and then meeting Maya in the Cognitive Realm was enough for him to start thinking of her as a person, and due to how spren work, that's gradually making her more of a person. So I'd think if there's a lasting flaw in Maya or the bond, it would be her not having the even vaguely returning memories of the other spren because of not really being the same Maya as before, more a pieced together Maya-as-imagined-by-Adolin

So this might work except that we have a year time-skip between OB and SA4 - that means no significant plot points are going to happen in that time - or they'd be worth covering. I think it might happen in future, but I think something else needs to happen before Adolin can revive her. If he has all the building blocks now then we should open SA4 to find him already Radiant. That would be a huge arc to skip. 

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

Note: A lot of the Spiritual Realm is still very mysterious, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

Which is, unfortunately, one of the few things we do know about Nahel bonds. 

The bond requires you to have Snapped. That's what "being broken" is. Which means that this isn't a matter of "believing" your broken. It's a matter of needing places in your spiritweb for the soul of the Spren and your own to attach. 

The problem is we haven't been shown a minimum threshold, so everyone assumes the worst. 

[thegatorgirl00]

@PhineasGage, reading your posts I think there is an important requirement you seem to be missing for the bond. The spren has to want to bond. It's not like Allomancy where Snapping suddenly gives you powers. The thing giving powers is a sentient being who also needs to want a bond. That's why there were no Windrunners for 2000 years after the Recreance. It's not that no one was broken and lived the ideals, but no spren were willing to defy the Stormfather and initiate a bond. That's why Teft only just now bonded. Honorspren are just now willing to form the bond. The same could be true for Adolin. He could meet every other requirement for a nahel bond, but if a spren doesn't want to form one with him for some reason, then he won't become a KR. 

[Calderis]

Just in support of @thegatorgirl00's point, here's a relevant section from a WoB about trying to hack your way to a spren bond/multiple bonds.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Nyeaaahhh... The spren still has to choose. If you want to be a Surgebinder, the choice is being made. You can't fake your way into it. Decision and Honor are too much a part of Surgebinding for you to be able to fake your way into that. Other magics you might be able to do that. Other magics that don't require, like, Surgebinding works because a piece of Honor or Cultivation or a mix has chosen you specifically. There is will from the actual Investiture involved in it in Roshar.

Djarskublar

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

So it's not something you can cheat your way into, right. But cheating your way into Breath might be easier, right.

 

[PhineasGage]

16 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

@PhineasGage, reading your posts I think there is an important requirement you seem to be missing for the bond. The spren has to want to bond. It's not like Allomancy where Snapping suddenly gives you powers. The thing giving powers is a sentient being who also needs to want a bond. That's why there were no Windrunners for 2000 years after the Recreance. It's not that no one was broken and lived the ideals, but no spren were willing to defy the Stormfather and initiate a bond. That's why Teft only just now bonded. Honorspren are just now willing to form the bond. The same could be true for Adolin. He could meet every other requirement for a nahel bond, but if a spren doesn't want to form one with him for some reason, then he won't become a KR. 

I'm not disputing that. But then we have to wonder what will change to make a spren want to bond him. Spren don't change much without the bond so the change has to come from Adolin if he is going to attract one. In theory a new one could be born but it is said that having "children" is rare amongst spren and we don't know how long childhood lasts. 

This is my point regarding neccessity and sufficiency.

So far we know being broken is necessary but not sufficient. We know a spren willing to bond is necessary but not sufficient.

We don't know that being broken PLUS having a willing spren is sufficient, we only know those things are necessary. 

On top of that, we don't know how much agency each spren actually has with regards to the bond. It seems to be complete choice, but the human's actions do something to make it happen and we don't know how much choice they have in that last moment.

[thegatorgirl00]

21 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm not disputing that. But then we have to wonder what will change to make a spren want to bond him. Spren don't change much without the bond so the change has to come from Adolin if he is going to attract one. In theory a new one could be born but it is said that having "children" is rare amongst spren and we don't know how long childhood lasts. 

The first people the spren seem to be choosing are the ones who are best suited to the order and can probably make it to the final oath. But we know from the Skybreakers that most people in an order don't make it that far. I think that as the orders expand, the spren will get less picky and start choosing less ideal candidates. Maybe Adolin is one who could only make it to the third or fourth oath, but there are others who could make it to all five, so Adolin wouldn't be chosen until the orders grow larger. Maybe spren can somehow see Adolin's atypical bond with Maya and are avoiding him because of that. There are plenty of minor things that could be causing spren to avoid him at this point since there are so few spren and they seem to be pretty selective right now. In any case, his bond with Maya at this point basically guarantees no other spren will bond him at this point, so we won't know if he would have eventually attracted another spren otherwise. 

[PhineasGage]

7 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

There are plenty of minor things that could be causing spren to avoid him at this point

Yes. This is what I said. He may have the necessary requirements but does not have sufficient requirements. If you read all my posts you will see that I am not saying Adolin won't be an Edgedancer. I am disputing the idea that he is one yet. At best him reawakening Maya may have given him some access but as we have a timeskip and it seems likely that we would get to see Adolin revive her if it is to happen, he probably hasn't awakened her enough to bond with her properly. People have said he is already suitable. I say that all we can prove is that he may have partly reawakened a Dead-eye. Even that is unclear whether it will remain - perhaps it was because of the perpendicularity- like Taln becoming lucid for a moment that she was able to awaken slightly. We know as of OB he has not bonded a spren. That means he does not fill the requirements. We don't know all the requirements.

Lopen has a bond therefore he must have all the requirements that are sufficient to gain a bond. Some of these will be necessary, others may be optional

Adolin does not have a bond therefore he may have the necessary requirements but he cannot have sufficient requirements. 

We cannot know if Adolin has the necessary requirements or not without more info. He may be broken (I personally don't think so) and he may even have a willing spren (though again I don't think so) but if there are other requirements that you need to get the bond then he does not have enough of them to bond.

I'll use a real world analogy - perhaps I'm not being clear with this. Its an example loosely based on RL data but I'll  fudge it to make it clear.

• Mesothelioma is a type of cancer linked to asbestos exposure. 
• All sufferers of mesothelioma were exposed to asbestos during their lives
• Not all people exposed to asbestos get mesothelioma 
• 60% of mesothelioma sufferers were smokers
• 20% were exposed to oil based products like paint/paint thinners fumes
• 10% worked in hot environments (eg foundries, factories working with hot machinery etc)
• 10% could identify no other specific situation that might affect their lungs.

So what does this tell us? It tells us firstly that if you have mesothelioma you must have been exposed to asbestos. It is necessary. 

It tells us that not all people exposed to asbestos get mesothelioma, therefore you need something else to happen. Therefore being exposed, whilst necessary is not enough (sufficient) to get mesothelioma.

We know that 90% of the mesothelioma sufferers had one other stimulus that may have contributed. 10% don't recognize anything that might be a factor in their disease. This means it is likely that if you have the necessary cause (asbestos exposure) and at least one factor, you have sufficient requirements to get mesothelioma. The other 10% likely relate to factors we don't know about or genetic factors. We know this because Not everyone who gets exposed gets the disease - because they don;t have the sufficient requirements.

We can theorise all day about why Adolin doesn't meet requirements but we don't actually have that much data to support it. Canon evidence is thin when it comes to Adolin and bonding because we don't know how all the other orders bonded and we don't know enough of how the spren choose.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

The bond requires you to have Snapped. That's what "being broken" is. Which means that this isn't a matter of "believing" your broken. It's a matter of needing places in your spiritweb for the soul of the Spren and your own to attach. 

I know, I know!

But what I mean is that there could be different ways to obtain those places in your spiritweb for the soul of the spren to attach.

See, we know, that the Knights Radiant were much more numerous, than they are now. And I agree, that there probably weren't that many people that were as broken as Kaladin, Shallan or Dalinar. So there are two possibilities... Either the threshold of brokenness is actually much lower than we have seen so far or there is another way of attaining Radianthood - through being a squire. Think of them as a recruiting program.

Being a squire to a Radiant and living by his Ideals gives a squire access to a Surge and basic Stormlight abilities, as long as the Radiant is nearby. We know, that Surgebinding ability stems from a person's spiritweb. So my idea is, that squires form a Connection with the Radiant and thus manipulates the squires spiritweb to give them Surgebinding ability, while they are near - essentially working as a substitute spren. This would suggest, that the Connection formed those gaps and a spren could slip into these gaps to form a true Nahel bond. The usual oath safe guards would be still there and, of course, the spren still would have to choose to bond.

Just a theory with the new information we have about squires.

Edited December 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Calderis]

@SLNC I used you post for context, but it wasn't directed solely at you.

As to your idea, it's possible... But I don't think a simple relationship with a Radiant would rewrite thing in that way. I think that the squire bond would already require the cracks in order for someone to be able to infuse at all. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/83/#e2912

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BlackYeti

With most magic systems, you've said that you need some sort of gap in your soul for the Investiture to get in. On Nalthis, there's obviously a bit that they can give away. Is this how Vasher is able to get Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

I don't think anyone without cracks can suck in Stormlight. I also think that anyone could learn to do it if they had them, spren or no spren. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

But I don't think a simple relationship with a Radiant would rewrite thing in that way.

Connection != simple relationship

You could be right though.

Then again in Dalinar's Starfall vision (Chapter 19, TWoK)

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“No words for me, I see,” the knight said. “Very well. But should you wish to put that mysterious training of yours to use, come to Urithiru.”
“Urithiru?” Dalinar said. He’d heard that name somewhere.
“Yes,” the knight said. “I cannot promise you a position in one of the orders—that decision is not mine—but if your skill with the sword is similar to your skill with hearth-tending implements, then I am confident you will find a place with us.”

The decision of being a Radiant is not the knight's decision, it's the decision of a spren, but he'd probably be a squire. I think, that everyone can be a squire, as long as he lives by his Radiant's ideals, because that forms a spiritual Connection between them. The knight in the vision, that speaks with Dalinar is a Windrunner and in the vision Dalinar is protecting his family. That is why I thought of it being a recruitment program and why I think the knight is so confident, that Heb (the person Dalinar is in the vision) would have at least been a Windrunner squire.

Well, and we have that whole thing, that Nale has going with his Skybreakers.

Edited December 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The decision of being a Radiant is not the knight's decision, it's the decision of a spren, but he'd probably be a squire. I think, that everyone can be a squire, as long as he lives by his Radiant's ideals, because that forms a spiritual Connection between them. The knight in the vision, that speaks with Dalinar is a Windrunner and in the vision Dalinar is protecting his family. That is why I thought of it being a recruitment program and why I think the knight is so confident, that Heb (the person Dalinar is in the vision) would have at least been a Windrunner squire.

I don't disagree with that. I just think that it's because one way or another, everyone ends up broken enough to infuse, so all that's required is the relationship with a Radiant. 

Life is rough. Eventually everyone goes through something that breaks Tham. The alternative requires an amazingly privileged and sheltered life. 

[Mulk]

32 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I don't disagree with that. I just think that it's because one way or another, everyone ends up broken enough to infuse, so all that's required is the relationship with a Radiant. 

Life is rough. Eventually everyone goes through something that breaks Tham. The alternative requires an amazingly privileged and sheltered life. 

pretty much this.  Maybe not everyone but it's going to be a hell of a lot of people.

I looked up depression on the WHO and it claims 300 million have depression.  That's ~4% of the populace of the world at a time.  I don't have the ability or the time to look up statistics on war-related trauma, near death by illness, accident, death of a child, abuse, violent crime or whatever else could break someone to add them all up but I think it's a safe bet that at least 20-25% of Earth would probably qualify as broken enough to obtain a bond if we lived in the Cosmere.  Applied to the population of the Earth that's like 1.5 billion people or more.   I don't know how many people live on Roshar but if 1 in 4 or 5 is a good working number, well, there's a ton of people available.

[Awesomness]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

We can theorise all day about why Adolin doesn't meet requirements but we don't actually have that much data to support it. Canon evidence is thin when it comes to Adolin and bonding because we don't know how all the other orders bonded and we don't know enough of how the spren choose.

To pick up were you left, lets make a list of requirement we know:

- You have to be broken. Its hard to say from 1 to 10 how broken you need tu be.

- You have to live up to the ideals. (I'm not certain that Adolin follows the 1st, but that's another topic)

- It may be easier if you are a squire because: a. you are following your radiants ideal - b. your spiritweb is somehow more apt.

- Your moral codes have to be aligned with one of the orders.

- You need to attract the attention of a spren. We know most navel bonds were supervised. In the case of the edge dancers, the circle chose Lift, though also considerer Ym.

- You have to say the words.

- Spren started bonding just recently, so it is possible that they are still a little shy.

Do you guys know of any other requirement?

 

[thegatorgirl00]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

To pick up were you left, lets make a list of requirement we know:

- You have to be broken. Its hard to say from 1 to 10 how broken you need tu be.

- You have to live up to the ideals. (I'm not certain that Adolin follows the 1st, but that's another topic)

- It may be easier if you are a squire because: a. you are following your radiants ideal - b. your spiritweb is somehow more apt.

- Your moral codes have to be aligned with one of the orders.

- You need to attract the attention of a spren. We know most navel bonds were supervised. In the case of the edge dancers, the circle chose Lift, though also considerer Ym.

- You have to say the words.

- Spren started bonding just recently, so it is possible that they are still a little shy.

Do you guys know of any other requirement?

 

It's not a requirement, but you are more likely to attract a spren if you know a Radiant. 

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Questioner

Is being a Knight Radiant at all genetic? Because you have Jasnah, Dalinar, and Renarin in the same family.

Brandon Sanderson

It is not genetic, however… Um… Families or people close to one another are more likely. It’s not genetic. So for instance, if everyone were adopted it would still have the same prevalence.

Questioner

Okay, fascinating!

Questioner

[interruption hard to hear]

Brandon Sanderson

Well, there are a couple of reasons for that. One is which, attracting the attention of a spren can mean that other spren are paying attention to that area. There are also things in the Cosmere (the shared universe of them) where people are connected spiritually. Um… and that’s part of the magic as well. So… You are more likely to become a Radiant if you know a Radiant.

 

#surgebinding

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