[OB] Mayalaran

[Aleksiel]

To address (in general) the questions above about spren - radiantspren are a mixture of H and C, some identify more with one or the other. Relevant WoB in spoiler tags for length:

Spoiler

 

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Questioner

If the spren of the Truthwatchers are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher? Or both?

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the sapient spren that form the Orders of Knights Radiant are related to a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. Some lean one direction much more than the other, and the spren of the Truthwatchers leans toward Cultivation.

 

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Dragon13

Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren?

Brandon Sanderson

He would definitely... Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Dragon13

By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of Honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Nebraskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a Cultivationspren.

 

 

It makes sense those who lean on one side more will share certain traits. I can see both honorspren and highspren claiming they are the best at representing H - be it by following the spirit or the letter of oaths and promises. On the other side we have Wyndle, who doesn't care much about how many laws, written or unwritten rules his radiant breaks, because he has different priorities.

[Vianki]

On 11/27/2017 at 8:40 AM, PhineasGage said:

If he was broken as a child, wouldn't he have formed a bond? Renarin has one, Jasnah has one, Shallan has one and it is implied they all have troubled pasts. Even if Adolin's was worse than all of theirs, it can't  have broken him or he'd already be Radiant. We've got Radiant's left right and centre, why would Adolin be ignored when almost everyone he is close to has bonded?

When did he first get Maya? While we begin to see more interaction after the Shadesmar misadventure, is it possible she was slightly bonded the whole time? 

Or this is a solid theory too. 

On 11/27/2017 at 8:54 AM, Ookla the Mulkfather said:

In any case, given Syl's reaction to anyone who carries a shardblade, you can make the inference that at least part of the reason Adolin doesn't have a spren is because he bears a dead shardblade.  They're generally going to shy away from him and it's possible that this is so much the case that the only way he was ever going to become Radiant is by reviving the spren of his dead blade, unless he divested himself of the blade first.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Vianki
added second, possibly more solid, theory.

[PhineasGage]

7 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

They seem to care more about the little people than influencing major world events. Even if they did look at Adolin, I think everything would have combined to make them choose Lift anyways. 

Probably - tho that then undermines @maxal's point about Adolin not being chosen because they didn't even get to him.

5 hours ago, Darvys said:

But now that i think of it, what are higher spren attracted to ? Thoughts ? Then they watch the actions for confirmation ?

Good point - it may not even be the same for different types of spren. Cryptics and Inkspren seem to both watch for a while (Jasnah sees 3 inkspren when she bonds Ivory in the WoR prologue and Elhokar sees cryptics for ages before he bonds). But we don;t know how the spren found them. We know spren are attracted by things - anticipationspren etc, but surely they can't just teleport over Shadesmar to be wherever they need to be? Aren't some types of spren more common in different parts of Roshar? Does that mean in order to be a certain Radiant you were better off going to a particular place to bond (might link with Adolin not bonding yet) or is that a phenomenon that happened as a result of the Recreance?

Argh so many questions.

5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

To address (in general) the questions above about spren - radiantspren are a mixture of H and C, some identify more with one or the other. Relevant WoB in spoiler tags for length:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

It makes sense those who lean on one side more will share certain traits. I can see both honorspren and highspren claiming they are the best at representing H - be it by following the spirit or the letter of oaths and promises. On the other side we have Wyndle, who doesn't care much about how many laws, written or unwritten rules his radiant breaks, because he has different priorities.

Brilliant - thank you for this. Do we know which ones lean in which directions or is it still under debate? Are there patterns within that (eg the female herald linked spren = more cultivation, or the first 5 are of Honor etc)? I can't quite place inkspren or lightspren for example. Neither seems to fit how I view Honor or Cultivation.

12 minutes ago, Vianki said:

When did he first get Maya? While we begin to see more interaction after the Shadesmar misadventure, is it possible she was slightly bonded the whole time

He won it before Gavilar's death. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Mayalaran#History He was therefore 17 or younger at the time. It seems unlikely that he'd have been allowed to enter a formal duel with shards on the line before the age of 16. He has maybe had her seven or eight years?

13 minutes ago, Vianki said:

Or this is a solid theory too. 

On 11/27/2017 at 6:54 PM, Ookla the Mulkfather said:

In any case, given Syl's reaction to anyone who carries a shardblade, you can make the inference that at least part of the reason Adolin doesn't have a spren is because he bears a dead shardblade.  They're generally going to shy away from him and it's possible that this is so much the case that the only way he was ever going to become Radiant is by reviving the spren of his dead blade, unless he divested himself of the blade first.

But Dalinar had a blade and he bonds the Stormfather. The Stormfather even sought him out to give him the visions. Gavilar also had a blade and was obviously also getting the visions prior to his death. 

[Aleksiel]

@PhineasGage We don't know yet. I doubt most spren will be as easy to put on the H-C scale as honorspren and cultivationspren, who make the two opposite sides. I'd say inkspren lean a bit more towards the H end of the spectrum based on Ivory saying he worries how changeable are people and change seems to be important for C, whereas H would probably prefer things to remain the way they are. Orders getting along with each other doesn't seem like a reliable indicator, because we know WR and SB were at odds with each other and both seem pretty much on the H if you ask me.

I don't think you should expect broken people in general to form bonds, at least not before the current SA events. Those spren who formed nahel bonds are isolated cases and for now we've seen only honorspren willing to start returning to humans at the end of OB. The Circle (cultivationspren) send only one - Wyndle. They had considered Ym and then preferred Lift because of their mother's gift (so may be from C herself like in Dalinar's case, not just the Nightwatcher). They send one to see how it goes and not to someone at the center of anything too important, so may be they didn't want to attract attention and it happened relatively recently, thus I personally do not see not sending a cultivationspren to anyone else as a sign there are no other potential ED. It goes for all orders.

[Darvys]

@Aleksiel Do we know how long Nale has been on his mission ? That would tell us if some orders were less reluctant to return than others, unless of course other spren have been doing what Syl did.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, Aleksiel said:

@PhineasGage We don't know yet. I doubt most spren will be as easy to put on the H-C scale as honorspren and cultivationspren, who make the two opposite sides. I'd say inkspren lean a bit more towards the H end of the spectrum based on Ivory saying he worries how changeable are people and change seems to be important for C, whereas H would probably prefer things to remain the way they are. Orders getting along with each other doesn't seem like a reliable indicator, because we know WR and SB were at odds with each other and both seem pretty much on the H if you ask me.

I don't think you should expect broken people in general to form bonds, at least not before the current SA events. Those spren who formed nahel bonds are isolated cases and for now we've seen only honorspren willing to start returning to humans at the end of OB. The Circle (cultivationspren) send only one - Wyndle. They had considered Ym and then preferred Lift because of their mother's gift (so may be from C herself like in Dalinar's case, not just the Nightwatcher). They send one to see how it goes and not to someone at the center of anything too important, so may be they didn't want to attract attention and it happened relatively recently, thus I personally do not see not sending a cultivationspren to anyone else as a sign there are no other potential ED. It goes for all orders.

for the tension between WR and SB the kaladin's struggle in WoR are revelatory. the two order had huge similarity, but some thin (but very depth) difference. the law need to be enforced to protect the society, and the society protect the people from itself. but not alwasy, sometime the law is clearly unfair or some borderline situation can arise.

for the spren, we know no honospresn (syl aside) had broken the stormfather's order to don't bond any human [end of WoR], the cryptic send only one of them (pattern) at the first hint of the desolation, but the other? the truthwatcher sprens? the spren of the stoneward order? even some willshaper spren (light spren probably) can, in the two thousands years, try to chase some 'stupid deram' like ico daughter? and for the cultivation spren, in this time the circle send only wyndle (because the other spren are actively try to bond the human again), but don't think anyone had order the spren to stay back (like the honorspren), so in the past some proto-edgedancer should be appear.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Fulminato

[PhineasGage]

7 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Orders getting along with each other doesn't seem like a reliable indicator, because we know WR and SB were at odds with each other and both seem pretty much on the H if you ask me.

I agree - in fact I'd actually wonder if some of the biggest conflicts arose primarily because of tiny differences rather than big ones. People often get more angry with those they are close to. 

7 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

I don't think you should expect broken people in general to form bonds, at least not before the current SA events

I agree, but Nale does imply he's been searching out surgebinders for some time in an attempt to prevent the desolation. For one thing, he's been picking them up and trying to turn them into Skybreakers.  It may be only 6 years and we know his idea of time is likely warped (Ash's is - it seems reasonable that all the Heralds are in the same position given their madness) but he seems to think that he was somewhere recently then arrives and find food has rotted away. That suggests a "short" time to him is longer than most people would think of as short so if he thinks he's been doing it a while then that to me sounds like a long time. If it is a long time, then we likely had many protosurgebinders over the years. Not everyone who breaks will be appropriate, sure. But it still suggests that those who are appropriate will be bonded first. 

@Darvys re spren attraction. I was thinking about this last night and realised that Syl tells Kaladin that she found him "because the winds knew him" (tWoK). Perhaps protosurgebinders attract their related lesser spren and this creates ripples through shadesmar helping the higherspren find the person. So by this logic, then the cryptics found Shallan because of the creationspren. Logicspren led Ivory to Jasnah, Syl followed the windspren to Kaladin etc. Lift is followed by Lifespren in Edgedancer but we don't see her attract them before she is bonded but perhaps she did in some way? Her mother helped people, perhaps helping her mother with that was enough? I am unclear about the lesser spren related to the other orders but perhaps that might lead us to a clue about who is more likely to attract certain spren types.

7 hours ago, Darvys said:

Do we know how long Nale has been on his mission ? That would tell us if some orders were less reluctant to return than others, unless of course other spren have been doing what Syl did.

I don't think we have a set figure. That said, isn't he taking protosurgebinders before they bond and try to recruit them to the skybreakers? That implies he's been doing it a long time. He may not have been killing all that time, but he at least thought that it was worth watching for. We need to know how the bond is initiated. It is clearly the actions and thoughts (for at least some orders) that make the spren decide to cross into the physical realm. It is implied that they make a conscious decision, so presumably it is a choice rather than the person pulling them through. But even that isn't clear cut. Cenn (tWoK) says he sees wind swirl around Kaladin - and that happens long before Kaladin swears the first ideal. I know he is living it, but the words matter. So a spren can come through, wait around, and then bond at a later date? Is the bond formed in a moment or does it take weeks/months/years to solidify to a point where the human becomes aware of it? Is it different for different spren?

(Side note: So Kal was  already a kind of windrunner, but never attracted Nale. Doesn't that seem odd? He had plenty of alleged crimes to his name including escaping as a slave, also we know the Skybreakers were even at the battle where Kal kills Helaran because Helaran was a skybreaker. Why didn't they try and recruit him? Why didn't they sense him as the seem to have sensed the others?)

 

[Darvys]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

@Darvys re spren attraction ...

Yeah following a trail left by lesser spren would make sense, though it would lead to quite a few goose chases, as the attributes of the lesser spren don't quite match their higher cousin's requirements. So i could see this working for say the Cryptics who are seen to investigate their potential partners prior to the crossing. The Windspren are a mystery to me though, what would make them flock to a person who's feet never left the ground ? The way he moved while fighting ? If your theory is true that would add to how risky Syl's move was.

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So a spren can come through, wait around, and then bond at a later date? Is the bond formed in a moment or does it take weeks/months/years to solidify to a point where the human becomes aware of it? Is it different for different spren?

Timbre and Elhokar's spren are indications that this is possible, it is far from ideal as the spren could end up lost and mindless which explains the care taken by the orders we've seen to carefully select a predisposed candidate.

As for the time it takes to form a bond, i'd say little, Lopen is seen chasing Rua around for the first time in Rlain's pov ( we see him looking under a rock for no reason -> the game they play at his later pov ) and he speaks the second ideal only a few weeks later, so he must have switched from squire to radiant at some point in that time window.

I doubt it's different between orders, the time it takes probably depends on the human side,i suppose the sooner they start embracing their spren's "code" the sooner the bond forms.

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Side note: So Kal was  already a kind of windrunner, but never attracted Nale. Doesn't that seem odd? He had plenty of alleged crimes to his name including escaping as a slave, also we know the Skybreakers were even at the battle where Kal kills Helaran because Helaran was a skybreaker. Why didn't they try and recruit him? Why didn't they sense him as the seem to have sensed the others?

I've also been wondering about this, i can't guess how they pinpoint their targets, Kaladin aside we have Shallan who not only had bonded a spren but had advanced enough to summon a blade and has been using her surges, she checks every possible box in their hit list and we know Nale has no trouble executing little girls, why she's still around i can't begin to say. They only found out about her when her mother informed her Skybreaker friend/lover, and of course the idiot didn't see fit to inform his order of what he was planning to do ( if Mraize didn't lie about his affiliation of course ).

[Aleksiel]

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So Kal was  already a kind of windrunner, but never attracted Nale. Doesn't that seem odd? He had plenty of alleged crimes to his name including escaping as a slave, also we know the Skybreakers were even at the battle where Kal kills Helaran because Helaran was a skybreaker. Why didn't they try and recruit him? Why didn't they sense him as the seem to have sensed the others?

I wonder, too. Especially since Pattern said WR's surgebinding makes more noise than LW, which is why Kal inhaling stormlight drew the crying spren, whereas Shallan's illusions were under the radar, so I'd say spotting a WR should be way easier than a LW, but... I remember some sharders saying (critically) how rules don't seem to apply to Stormblessed 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Yeah following a trail left by lesser spren would make sense, though it would lead to quite a few goose chases, as the attributes of the lesser spren don't quite match their higher cousin's requirements. So i could see this working for say the Cryptics who are seen to investigate their potential partners prior to the crossing. The Windspren are a mystery to me though, what would make them flock to a person who's feet never left the ground ? The way he moved while fighting ? If your theory is true that would add to how risky Syl's move was.

Yeah, I can imagine Shallan attracting creationspren, Jasnah attracting logicspren, Dalinar attracting gloryspren, but it seems hard to imagine how Kaladin could have attracted windspren as a child. Well, we do know that he feels invigorated by storms - perhaps that played a part somehow? Or maybe it was slightly inverted and Kaladin paid windspren much more attention than normal people did...?

I would very much enjoy seeing how the whole process works from a spren's perspective.

 

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

I've also been wondering about this, i can't guess how they pinpoint their targets, Kaladin aside we have Shallan who not only had bonded a spren but had advanced enough to summon a blade and has been using her surges, she checks every possible box in their hit list and we know Nale has no trouble executing little girls, why she's still around i can't begin to say. They only found out about her when her mother informed her Skybreaker friend/lover, and of course the idiot didn't see fit to inform his order of what he was planning to do ( if Mraize didn't lie about his affiliation of course ).

For Kaladin, he might well have been considered suspicious by the Skybreakers during his time with Amaram (in addition to the one who was apparently eliminated)... but then Amaram seemingly killed Helaran and Kaladin was made a slave so perhaps Kaladin got forgotten about...? If Kaladin had kept the Shards maybe he would have been considered to be highly suspicious by the Skybreakers.

For Shallan, Mraize's letter says "Your mother had intimate contact with a Skybreaker acolyte and you know the result of that relationship". This is presumably the guy who came with Shallan's mother to their manor and it seems that Shallan's mother was not in fact a personal member of the Skybreakers (though probably knew something). It seems like the Skybreakers were tipped off about "something suspicious" but not who and they mistakenly believed it was Helaran.

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Shallan who not only had bonded a spren but had advanced enough to summon a blade and has been using her surges, she checks every possible box in their hit list and we know Nale has no trouble executing little girls, why she's still around i can't begin to say. They only found out about her when her mother informed her Skybreaker friend/lover, and of course the idiot didn't see fit to inform his order of what he was planning to do ( if Mraize didn't lie about his affiliation of course ).

So I figured here that Shallan's mother and her "friend" were not sure, tried to force Shallan to reveal her powers, succeeded, but were then killed by Shallan and Lin respectively. We know Lin joined the Ghostbloods at some point who have no issue with surgebinders per se tho I doubt they knew about Shallan. I think what happened was that the main body of the order never realised. They aren't going to interfere with a "crime of passion" where a husband kills his wife and her lover - especially as Lin says that it was a murder/suicide thing publically anyway. He kept Shallan's secret under wraps to make sure the sjkybreakers never got to her. I think that because drawing creationspren is common enough a thing (although Shallan is especially good at it) perhaps it is less "loud" for the Skybreakers to follow? 

I think this "loudness" is important. Perhaps it relates to the issue below ?

30 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

. I remember some sharders saying (critically) how rules don't seem to apply to Stormblessed

Yes - pretty sure we see Adolin think this at some point about Kaladin (in WoR IIRC). Given Jezrien's untimely (or is it?) demise, I wonder if we are going to have Radiants replace the Heralds. Jezrien was said to be the best mad  man who ever lived, and I think it could be argued that Kal is pretty great too. I don't want it to happen. I personally want Kaladin to grow old, and fat, happily married/partnered/part of a family as a favourite uncle somewhere warm and sunny and then skid into his grave with a cigarette in one hand and a glass of wine in the other. 

Yeah, I'm sure that's going to happen.

Anyway, I think that it is likely that something else is going on with Kaladin and Syl given how the rules don't apply. IIRC Syl is one of the last "true" Honorspren (as in she was made by Honor himself?) if thats right, then she is almost the same as an honorblade, except that she's beautiful and articulate of course.

Edited November 29, 2017 by PhineasGage
typo - but a funny one. see strikethrough

[Darvys]

12 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For Kaladin, he might well have been considered suspicious by the Skybreakers during his time with Amaram (in addition to the one who was apparently eliminated)... but then Amaram seemingly killed Helaran and Kaladin was made a slave so perhaps Kaladin got forgotten about...? If Kaladin had kept the Shards maybe he would have been considered to be highly suspicious by the Skybreakers.

If anything, refusing the shards would have been the telling part, knowing how radiants react to them. But we can easily assume that Amaram fooled them too with his story. Still, i don't think they're the kind of people who would just drop a lead, Kaladin was safely under their radar somehow.

5 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I think this "loudness" is important. Perhaps it relates to the issue below ?

Perhaps, but if they had a fabrial or whathever somehow emulating the screamers in Kholinar, wouldn't it go crazy with all the tech around ? Note that Kaladin's surges weren't on the quite side of the spectrum from what we saw, it wouldn't have been too hard to mark him once his powers manifested prior to being protected by his position with Dalinar.

 

9 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Anyway, I think that it is likely that something else is going on with Kaladin and Syl given how the rules don't apply. IIRC Syl is one of the last "true" Honorspren (as in she was made by Honor himself?) if thats right, then she is almost the same as an honorblade, except that she's beautiful and articulate of course.

Syl was among the Stormfather's first batch of child spren, back then i understood that Honor was still alive, so perhaps he helped in her shaping somehow ? Even intentionally gave something of himself in the process ?

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

would very much enjoy seeing how the whole process works from a spren's perspective.

Yes I agree - maybe we'll get it via Venli? I mean she seems to have the interest to ask Timbre that kind if thing - especially as the Listeners don't have a history of surgebinding really. I would have loved to get an Interlude about this - maybe Stump talking about it with her spren or something?

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Kaladin was safely under their radar somehow.

Yeah I agree this currently seems to be the best option. Otherwise we essentially have to assume the Skybreakers are just stupid. I suppose they might be.

Wait a second, it just occured to me, Kaladin doesn't run on Stormlight. He runs on Narrativium

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Perhaps, but if they had a fabrial or whathever somehow emulating the screamers in Kholinar, wouldn't it go crazy with all the tech around ? Note that Kaladin's surges weren't on the quite side of the spectrum from what we saw, it wouldn't have been too hard to mark him once his powers manifested prior to being protected by his position with Dalinar.

I'm sorry, I am obviously dense because I don't understand what you mean - could you try again and do it like an ELI5 for me?

1 hour ago, Darvys said:

Syl was among the Stormfather's first batch of child spren, back then i understood that Honor was still alive, so perhaps he helped in her shaping somehow ? Even intentionally gave something of himself in the process ?

Possibly, though that makes it less likely as a hypothesis - at least until we get more information. The evidence isn't there to support it.

[Darvys]

21 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Wait a second, it just occured to me, Kaladin doesn't run on Stormlight. He runs on Narrativium

Always knew god metals were overrated, this is the real thing to burn.

22 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm sorry, I am obviously dense because I don't understand what you mean - could you try again and do it like an ELI5 for me?

Your mention of "loudness" in surgebinding made me go on this tangent. I was refering to the spren in kholinar who detect the use of fabrials (and surgebinding, according to Kaladin's experiment), i was saying that if the Skybreakers had a device that could mimick the ability it would go haywire with all the fabrials around, so wathever they're using to detect surgebinders must work on a different principle.

[PhineasGage]

Just now, Darvys said:

Your mention of "loudness" in surgebinding made me go on this tangent. I was refering to the spren in kholinar who detect the use of fabrials (and surgebinding, according to Kaladin's experiment), i was saying that if the Skybreakers had a device that could mimick the ability it would go haywire with all the fabrials around, so wathever they're using to detect surgebinders must work on a different principle.

Wonderful and good point. Thank you for pandering to me. 

Hmmm, that rather suggests that they must be doing it either though legitimate investigation - In which case how did they find Lift - I mean she travels all over Eastern Roshar and Nale still finds her - that seems..... unlikely right? or they are using some other thing that specifically tests for (probably) the nahel bond? That implies there is possibly a buildup towards it actually being realised that can be detected if that is the thing they are looking for. Given that the orders are quite varied I would think it would be the easiest thing to search for that they have in common. Maybe something happens on the Shadesmar side that shows where a potential is?

[ScavellTane]

What of the Highspren? They could be helping.. somehow?

[Darvys]

3 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Maybe something happens on the Shadesmar side that shows where a potential is?

Now that you mention this, when the Alethi troups fused with the voidspren, Kaladin mentioned that the flames representing their souls had turned red. So perhaps people with a Nahel bond can be detected thanks to a similar effect, we'd have Highspren in Shadesmar looking for these unusual souls, and pointing the Skybreakers in their direction in the physical. This could account for bonded radiants, but not protoradiants.

[PhineasGage]

3 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

What of the Highspren? They could be helping.. somehow?

Yes that makes sense - not all the highsren are bonded at any one time and they can presumably manifest a bit on the physical side the way the honor spren can - we see them with Szeth for one thing. They could then pass the info on?

They may only know a proto radiant is around but not any crimes so then the humans have to find out if they committed any crimes they could execute them "for". ?

3 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Now that you mention this, when the Alethi troups fused with the voidspren, Kaladin mentioned that the flames representing their souls had turned red. So perhaps people with a Nahel bond can be detected thanks to a similar effect, we'd have Highspren in Shadesmar looking for these unusual souls, and pointing the Skybreakers in their direction in the physical. This could account for bonded radiants, but not protoradiants.

Argh genius YES. That makes perfect sense - the Highspren could see something then pass the info on maybe? The humans at TC weren't bonded in anyway afaik so maybe a the potential for a bond makes the flame glow brighter for a time? They could then try to get the person before they bonded, leash them to the skybreakers but if they are too late they just kill them? Once you've found one you could just touch them to hear their thoughts in theory like Shallan hears Drehy. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by PhineasGage
extra info

[PhineasGage]

sorry.

Edited November 29, 2017 by PhineasGage
double post

[Darvys]

4 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

The humans at TC weren't bonded in anyway afaik so maybe a the potential for a bond makes the flame glow brighter for a time? They could then try to get the person before they bonded, leash them to the skybreakers but if they are too late they just kill them? Once you've found one you could just touch them to hear their thoughts in theory like Shallan hears Drehy.

For the troups, they way i understood it, is that Nergaoul overwhelmed them with the Thrill and in that state of mind they were somewhat forcibly fused with voidspren ( Kaladin notes a whole army of spren disappearing not just the huge unmade ).

But there's something else, we know that to form a bond you'd have to be "broken", perhaps this is the missing piece. How would the spren know that a candidate can even form a bond, unless it was somehow visible from the cognitive realm ? So perhaps the Highspren are out looking for both the Radiants with "bright" souls and the broken humans either for recruitement purposes or to put them on a watch list. It fits.

[ScavellTane]

Quote

“Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash,” Odium said. “It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment.”

Quote

Living souls bobbed around, a swarm of them entering the Oathgate control chamber. One brushed Shallan. Drehy the bridgeman. For a brief moment she felt what it was like to be him.

 

[bo.montier]

On 11/19/2017 at 0:27 PM, SLNC said:

Shallan constantly seems happy to everyone too. Humans are great at creating facades.

Being broken does not mean being unhappy all the time. There are many ways of attaining brokenness. Adolin just doesn't seem like it to me. Maybe he will soon. I don't know. Maya is being healed though, I agree. If that will result in a Nahel bond with Adolin, we will see.

 

On 11/19/2017 at 0:34 PM, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

My issue is that when people say he "doesn't seem broken enough" they are just writing off everything we know about his life. If losing your mother as a teenager isn't enough... losing thousands of men you were responsible for, many of whom were friends you knew personally, and cared for as more than just that responsibility... If you snapped in a moment of anger and fear and killed someone... 

If those things aren't broken enough, than that means we're expecting all Radiants to be like Kal, Dalinar, and Shallan. If that's the case, I don't see how it was ever possible for the Radiants to have numbered in the thousands. 

I still have a ton of this thread to read, but I wanted to weigh in on the brokenness idea. 

While I don't know if it carries over, people on Scadrial can snap from a good beating. Maybe we shouldn't be so hung up on emotional breaking. It could just be the main characters that have such significant emotional trauma. Lopen could have "broken" when he lost his arm. 
It could ALSO be that squires don't have to go through the same trauma as their KR. It could ALSO be that people who hold a dead Blade can go through yet another different process, that doesn't require the same type of breaking...

[Matt Snow]

18 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

While I don't know if it carries over, people on Scadrial can snap from a good beating. Maybe we shouldn't be so hung up on emotional breaking. It could just be the main characters that have such significant emotional trauma. Lopen could have "broken" when he lost his arm. 

Iirc a WoB says that a brutal enough beating can crack your spiritual web enough to let power in (be it a spren or the little wisp that let's you activate Allomancy), but that it only lasts a short amount of time, so there probably aren't many Radiants made from (purely) physical trauma.

[Guest]

Regarding Lopen, I already stated this and was promptly ignored, but remember, that he was a squire first.

Maybe that prepares the Spiritweb to accept a Nahel Bond through the Connection to the Knight Radiant. Kind of like burning Lerasium rewrites the Spiritweb to give Mistborn powers without Snapping.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

32 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

While I don't know if it carries over, people on Scadrial can snap from a good beating. Maybe we shouldn't be so hung up on emotional breaking. 

 

12 minutes ago, Matt Snow said:

Iirc a WoB says that a brutal enough beating can crack your spiritual web enough to let power in (be it a spren or the little wisp that let's you activate Allomancy), but that it only lasts a short amount of time, so there probably aren't many Radiants made from (purely) physical trauma.

Maya first exhibits awareness immediately after Adolin is stabbed in the gut, so perhaps that was the short amount of time where Adolin's spiritual web was cracked enough to let her in.  Then once she's in, the bond can grow from there.