[OB] Mayalaran

[Stairdweller]

In the Ghostbloods' letter to Shallan, they claim that when the Skybreakers found proto-radiants who weren't bonded yet, they recruited them for the Skybreakers.  So, this implies that multiple spren could bond a proto-radiant. 

 

And... thinking about it.  You have a person who has cracks in their soul.  A spren fills in those cracks.  That spren is a personification of a fundamental ideal like Honor.  Shouldn't that have some kind of effect on the nature of the person who got bonded?

[maxal]

In a book where Adolin spent half his time being either absent from the narrative or poorly used as a comical relief, the Maya sub arc came in as a breath of fresh air. I have re-read the Maya sequence at least three times, back to back, without stopping for the other viewpoints and it read really nicely. I have a lot of critics for this book, but the Maya arc is not one of those.

What does Maya mean? What does it mean for Adolin to be able to hear her whisper, brush his mind even is faintly?

I am not an expert on realmatic magic. Many, many people on this forum are vastly more knowledgeable than I am on the subject, but it seems to me the only, only way humans can interact with sprens is through the Nahel Bond. The Nahel Bond starts before the first oath and it rather weak, in the beginning, the sprens are not being very articulate, surgebinding is limited and the human is often left with impressions more than actual words. We had many, many examples of proto-knights early in their bonds and each time they spoke of shapes in the mirror, light on a surface or a wind spren always trailing them. Maya, of course, is not the same, but something happened in between her and Adolin which is allowing her to connect with him, to touch him on her own free-will. When Adolin is lying motionless in his pile of rumble, too injured to move, Maya is brushing his mind: she isn't articulating words, it is likely she can't, but Adolin did feel she was urging him to... get up. So even without being in her physical form, Maya is able to sense the danger to Adolin, she is able to know he's hurt and she is trying to get him to move before he gets crushed. She knows. 

As such, I honestly do not know what else but a Nahel Bond could accomplished what Maya and Adolin did together. Only a Nahel Bond could allow a spren to make her thoughts heard to a human: the sword bond does not allow this capacity. Only other proto-knights are able to hear dead-Blade screaming and it never is coherent. Adolin is the very first yielder of a dead-Blade able to hear something coherent from his spren, more so, this spren has taken direct actions to preserve Adolin. There is no doubt Maya has gotten very protective of Adolin.

Obviously, it seems the trip to Shadesmar is what quick start the process. I cannot answer why, but it seems having Maya see Adolin with her own scratched eyes, seeing him behave for weeks, having him state she was his friend and perhaps caring for Kaladin, all of this, it may be what got Maya enough conscience to think maybe she can reached again. She did save Adolin when the Fused attacked him. Many things might have triggered her reaction but it seems to me seeing Adolin bleed and about to die is what triggered Maya to act. She does not want Adolin to die. The bond is weak, weaker than what we have seen into previous early knights: Adolin cannot surgebinde, he cannot use stormlight, he cannot heal himself, but it is a bond and as such, the only way I see it progress is towards a stronger bond.

I thus do not believe in any of the following theories:

1) Adolin will revive Maya, but she will vanish to bond someone else. Someone explain to me how this is even possible considering what we know of the Nahel Bond. Dead-sprens can only be revived by the Nahel Bond, what Adolin has with Maya is a weak Nahel Bond, he is goes further, then he will fully bond Maya. There is no scenario, in my head this is, where Maya becomes alive again and free to seek someone else to bond. The one scenario I can see is Adolin not progressing and his bond with Maya remaining... weak but that too seems improbable.

2) Adolin will revive Maya, but their relationship will not be the Nahel Bond, he will not be her knight. Someone explain to me how this works too. The only way sprens are able to influence the physical realm is through the Nahel Bond: the second Maya is able to influence it implies a Nahel Bond.

3) Adolin is not broken, but Maya is and, as such, he will fill in her cracks... OK. This one is far-fetched because this isn't how the Nahel Bod works at all. The sprens need to invest into human mental cracks to get the ability to influence and interact within the physical realm. The only way sprens can move with a conscience into the physical realm is with the Nahel Bond. Adolin is not a spren, he cannot invade Maya's brokenness to give her conscience: humans do not have this capacity. Maya can only reach the physical realm by filling in Adolin's mental cracks, cracks she probably couldn't see nor invade, nor influence until she actually met him, for real. One thing which stood up during the Shadesmar trip is Maya studying Adolin, being close, looking at him, investigating him. 

4) Adolin will bond another spren and well who cares what happens to Maya... Adolin is already bonded! By all the knowledge we have of the Nahel Bond and of realmatic magic, Adolin IS bonded to Maya, but the bond is weaker than the ones other knights are because Maya was dead. It is obvious to me she is no longer dead, broken, weak, but not dead. She talked to him. She gave him her name, she remembered her own name. I will also invite a great lot of caution into anyone wanting to place-hold Adolin or any other characters into orders we have yet to be acquainted with. Need I remember everyone of what most readers all thought the Dustbringers were about before we met Malata and got to learn they were about breaking things open to see what is inside? As thus, we have NO IDEA what the Stonewards are looking for and just because Adolin stands up to a thunderclast does not mean he would be a good Stonewards, especially since he's already bonded to Maya. He saved the boy. He saved the Shardbearer (I forgot his weird name). He never forgot the people around him and killing other Alethi wasn't right, not to him. 

Of course, Adolin having a Nahel Bond with Maya raises all sorts of questions... The first is many readers do not read him as "broken". Arguably, I have to agree he does not read as "broken", but so does Lopen. Some people just aren't going to allow their hardships to affect their outside behavior which isn't to say they don't have them. Adolin has been through a lot, other people have summarized it quite nicely. He does mention, in his viewpoints, on how shaken the Tower left him, how insignificant he felt as he was dying in Shadesmar: those moments of powerlessness did affect him, but he forces his nerves to calm down. He doesn't fractured like Shallan or depresses like Kaladin or bow down like Dalinar, he stands up bloody and tries to fight what he can. However just because Renarin healed the worst of his injuries does not mean Adolin is not bearing the scars from these events. This being said, going further in book 4, I do think this is one of the aspects of story telling Brandon should not gloss over. Many readers are firmly set against Adolin becoming a Radiant, even if it will probably take time before he can access surgebinding (probably not until the third oath), and as such Brandon should use the page time it needs to convince those readers this is the best path for the character. 

[Calderis]

@maxal glad to see you've finished the book. Welcome to the conversation.

I agree on all points, you made. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

55 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@maxal glad to see you've finished the book. Welcome to the conversation.

I agree on all points, you made. 

I have finished the book a week ago, but I am still working on reviewing the last two parts. I still need to re-read parts of it as I feel I glossed over many chapters. It's been hard to do mostly because the book has been a hit on many fronts, but a miss on many others. I am unsure how to review it.

And the conversation has been too active, each time I thought to answer, I got discouraged by how many new posts there was 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

And the conversation has been too active, each time I thought to answer, I got discouraged by how many new posts there was 

Yeah, it's nuts. I have completely given up on trying to follow it all. 

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yeah, it's nuts. I have completely given up on trying to follow it all. 

I honestly do not have enough free time to do it. 

[teknopathetic]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Many things might have triggered her reaction but it seems to me seeing Adolin bleed and about to die is what triggered Maya to act.

This reminded me a lot of Threnody - Mia went after the person who drew blood, but she was able to direct her rage. 

 

Silence for Shadows Spoiler

Spoiler

Silence's Grandmother became more connected to Silence over time and was able to resist the bloodlust. It is possible for shades to improve in meaningful ways. 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Dahak]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin will bond another spren.

We've been told you can bond multiple spren, but of course it makes advancing as a Knight Radient harder since you have to keep both sets of Ideals.

Based on Re-shepir trying to bond with Shallan, that leaves the question what ideals would be suitable for Sja-anat. Because she fits into the forlorn people that the first two Edgedance specific oaths reference, Though it might be easier for her to bond with Rlain.

[Mulk]

23 hours ago, maxal said:

Of course, Adolin having a Nahel Bond with Maya raises all sorts of questions... The first is many readers do not read him as "broken". Arguably, I have to agree he does not read as "broken", but so does Lopen. Some people just aren't going to allow their hardships to affect their outside behavior which isn't to say they don't have them. Adolin has been through a lot, other people have summarized it quite nicely. He does mention, in his viewpoints, on how shaken the Tower left him, how insignificant he felt as he was dying in Shadesmar: those moments of powerlessness did affect him, but he forces his nerves to calm down. He doesn't fractured like Shallan or depresses like Kaladin or bow down like Dalinar, he stands up bloody and tries to fight what he can. However just because Renarin healed the worst of his injuries does not mean Adolin is not bearing the scars from these events. This being said, going further in book 4, I do think this is one of the aspects of story telling Brandon should not gloss over. Many readers are firmly set against Adolin becoming a Radiant, even if it will probably take time before he can access surgebinding (probably not until the third oath), and as such Brandon should use the page time it needs to convince those readers this is the best path for the character. 

I've noted that criticism of Adolin as well.  I posted earlier in this thread my thoughts about it

Basically, it is my belief the criticism comes from an illogical assumption drawn from incomplete data.  They assume he's not broken because he doesn't act broken.  But we can't know that, as we don't see near enough of him to know how he handled his youth in anything other than the snippets of him with Dalinar; and a boy with a father of strong will and/or personality will very often put up a front for that father because he wants to be as strong as him.  Any brokenness would have been hidden from Dalinar as best as Adolin could manage, and only let out before his mother or brother when he couldn't take it anymore.

The more I think on it, the more I think Adolin was already broken in the past enough for a bond.  The eventual reveal of how Evi died will likely cause some real problems, but he's busted enough to bond a spren as it is.

Loved the rest of your post.

[The Invested Beard]

I think it's time for a sequel to Ten Heartbeats about Maya and Adolin titled Seven Heartbeats.

[PhineasGage]

38 minutes ago, Ookla the Mulkfather said:

Basically, it is my belief the criticism comes from an illogical assumption drawn from incomplete data.  They assume he's not broken because he doesn't act broken.

I would personally assume that he isn't broken because he doesn't have a Nahel bond. He may be forming one, but until OB he hadn't

If he was broken as a child, wouldn't he have formed a bond? Renarin has one, Jasnah has one, Shallan has one and it is implied they all have troubled pasts. Even if Adolin's was worse than all of theirs, it can't  have broken him or he'd already be Radiant. We've got Radiant's left right and centre, why would Adolin be ignored when almost everyone he is close to has bonded?

The fact that Lift or Lopen seem upbeat is irrelevant - they have bonds therefore they broke. That's the nature of the bond. The fact that Adolin doesn't have on yet (or at least hasn't completed one yet) implies that if he gets one in future it is something else that breaks him. It might be the revelation of Evi's death - but it will be the new information, not his past hurts that specifically breaks him in that case. That kind of thing would certainly be enough to disrupt a person's trajectory.

[Mulk]

Just now, PhineasGage said:

I would personally assume that he isn't broken because he doesn't have a Nahel bond. He may be forming one, but until OB he hadn't

If he was broken as a child, wouldn't he have formed a bond? Renarin has one, Jasnah has one, Shallan has one and it is implied they all have troubled pasts. Even if Adolin's was worse than all of theirs, it can't  have broken him or he'd already be Radiant. We've got Radiant's left right and centre, why would Adolin be ignored when almost everyone he is close to has bonded?

The fact that Lift or Lopen seem upbeat is irrelevant - they have bonds therefore they broke. That's the nature of the bond. The fact that Adolin doesn't have on yet (or at least hasn't completed one yet) implies that if he gets one in future it is something else that breaks him. It might be the revelation of Evi's death - but it will be the new information, not his past hurts that specifically breaks him in that case. That kind of thing would certainly be enough to disrupt a person's trajectory.

I really think you have it backwards. You assume all who are broken will form a bond, and apparently form a bond immediately.  I don't think that's the case. Especially right now when so many spren have been unwilling to make the leap to the physical realm to bond humans until very recently, given what happened in the Recreance.  We have Syl's word that she's the only honorspren doing the bond thing in WoR.  I think it took the success of that bond to encourage others to cross over.

We also have Teft.  That man has been broken most of his life, apparently. He reported his parents and they died. He's been on fireweed for years.  He's quite a bit older than Kaladin, so he has apparently been broken for a long time.  He only just recently, apparently, attracted a spren.  Renarin doesn't seem to have bonded his spren until very recently, though his brokenness may be life long.  Dalinar definitely didn't bond the Stormfather until very recently, though his brokenness stems at least to his visit to the Valley some years ago.  So I don't think you can say Adolin must already have a spren if he is broken.

In any case, given Syl's reaction to anyone who carries a shardblade, you can make the inference that at least part of the reason Adolin doesn't have a spren is because he bears a dead shardblade.  They're generally going to shy away from him and it's possible that this is so much the case that the only way he was ever going to become Radiant is by reviving the spren of his dead blade, unless he divested himself of the blade first.

[Fulminato]

23 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I would personally assume that he isn't broken because he doesn't have a Nahel bond. He may be forming one, but until OB he hadn't

If he was broken as a child, wouldn't he have formed a bond? Renarin has one, Jasnah has one, Shallan has one and it is implied they all have troubled pasts. Even if Adolin's was worse than all of theirs, it can't  have broken him or he'd already be Radiant. We've got Radiant's left right and centre, why would Adolin be ignored when almost everyone he is close to has bonded?

The fact that Lift or Lopen seem upbeat is irrelevant - they have bonds therefore they broke. That's the nature of the bond. The fact that Adolin doesn't have on yet (or at least hasn't completed one yet) implies that if he gets one in future it is something else that breaks him. It might be the revelation of Evi's death - but it will be the new information, not his past hurts that specifically breaks him in that case. That kind of thing would certainly be enough to disrupt a person's trajectory.

the first 'batch' of radiant was made of ten-ish man and woman, syl was the only honorspren foolish enough to disobey to the stormfather order and go to bond the most windrunner-aligned person on all roshar after the enemy return and the first radiant show the ability to life whit the oath some had started to bond someone else (for the moment only two people, teft and lopen) adolin is a honourable person for sure, but he is the best in all roshar to bond one of the only spren had the courage to seek human again? after the genocide of the recreance? hardly. brokness isn't the only requisite for bonding a spren, you attract a spren with your emotion and act, the proto-radiant must show the correct attitude for the spren.

but now he know the truth of the blade, the killed spren, he see her in the shademar trip. the mere knowledge can be the spark to start a thing before impossible. how many shardbear had hear the name of the blade from the spren itself? how many had, even one time, summon the blade whit less of ten heartbeat? i think the reply is none in 2 thousand years. if adolin succeded in the reviving of maya he had make something more exceptional to bond a spren.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Fulminato

[maxal]

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I would personally assume that he isn't broken because he doesn't have a Nahel bond. He may be forming one, but until OB he hadn't

If he was broken as a child, wouldn't he have formed a bond? Renarin has one, Jasnah has one, Shallan has one and it is implied they all have troubled pasts. Even if Adolin's was worse than all of theirs, it can't  have broken him or he'd already be Radiant. We've got Radiant's left right and centre, why would Adolin be ignored when almost everyone he is close to has bonded?

The fact that Lift or Lopen seem upbeat is irrelevant - they have bonds therefore they broke. That's the nature of the bond. The fact that Adolin doesn't have on yet (or at least hasn't completed one yet) implies that if he gets one in future it is something else that breaks him. It might be the revelation of Evi's death - but it will be the new information, not his past hurts that specifically breaks him in that case. That kind of thing would certainly be enough to disrupt a person's trajectory.

I agree with @Ookla the Mulkfather: being broken is not the only reason why someone is chosen by spren. In fact, we far as we can tell, it may not even be the leading choosing criteria, just a means by which sprens are able to form the Nahel Bond, but to survive, the bond needs to be fueled by the Radiant's ideals and these might be impossible to follow shall the sprens choose unwisely. In shorts, just being broken is not enough, you also need to attract the notice of a suitable spren.

So why hasn't Adolin, if he is indeed broken enough for a Nahel Bond, attract a spren when seemingly everyone within his family has? How is it, considering the strong numbers of sprens gravitating around the Kholin family, has none chose Adolin?

It may be because of the love he bears to his Blade, but then again we also know being a Shardbearer is not a limiting factor as Elhokar, Renarin and Dalinar all formed a bond while owning a dead-Blade.

I however think the reason for it is more... benign... None of the sprens which investigated the Kholin family found Adolin suitable.

First of, we know the Stormfather has prevented honor bound sprens from bounding humans again. We do not which orders were prevented to come except for the Windrunners. Skybreakers have their own selection mechanism and never broke their oaths. We know little of Willshapers and we have yet to meet a Stoneward's spren, but even if we did, I do think they would have skip on Adolin. Why? Because while Adolin is not a dishonorable individual, he also shown he did not consider honor a finality in itself, he doesn't deal well with form codes of conduct. Any sprens gravitating around the Kholins would have seen Adolin pester and argument against his father's code and struggle to follow them. It definitely makes him a most unsuitable candidate for most order requiring a strict line of conduct. Even if many readers love to place-hold Adolin into the Stonewards, my warning remains: we know very little of them and as a Honor bound order, they likely have strict oaths, stricter than someone like Adolin is able to follow.

Second of, we know the Cultivation oriented sprens which gravitated around the Kholin family were Cryptics, Inksprens, Truthwatcher sprens and the Stormfather. All from orders more definitely unsuitable for Adolin.

What about Cultivation sprens themselves? What about the Edgedancers? If Adolin is SO suitable for their order, then why didn't they send one of their members to bond him? Why didn't the Circle choose him?

I think the easiest answer might be the best one: because the Circle didn't think Adolin was a candidate. He is a Prince born into Privilege and while he is Kind and Considerate, he literally clashes with the typical Edgedancer candidates, as far as we can tell. The Circle initially chose Ym, a kind reclusive shoe maker but where then forced to chose Lift, a thief with a heart of gold. Edgedancers oaths are about remembering and listening to the forgotten. It is much, much, much safer choosing people already evolving with the forgotten, it is much, much safer choosing someone who already is a forgotten, but Prince Adolin? Dashing Handsome Perfect Prince Adolin? 

Too risky. Not suitable. Needs too much work. Not obvious enough.

Hence Adolin was skipped when came the time to refound the Radiants because no sprens thought he was suitable enough. It may not be a matter of brokenness, just a matter of suitability, but Maya, Maya is different. I honestly think she took a chance on Adolin. I think she saw what the Circle and the Nightwatcher did not see.

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Hence Adolin was skipped when came the time to refound the Radiants because no sprens thought he was suitable enough. It may not be a matter of brokenness, just a matter of suitability, but Maya, Maya is different. I honestly think she took a chance on Adolin. I think she saw what the Circle and the Nightwatcher did not see.

I was with you right up til this end part.

Maya didn't get a choice. As a dead blade she's stuck with whoever she gets, and she can't consciously begin the bond. That's why reviving blades is so difficult. The chances of a person wielding the blade treating it with respect, and as a being rather than a tool is low. Add in the need for then to fit the ideals of an order and it gets lower. 

That only makes what Adolin is doing all the more amazing though. 

[PhineasGage]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Second of, we know the Cultivation oriented sprens which gravitated around the Kholin family were Cryptics, Inksprens, Truthwatcher sprens and the Stormfather. All from orders more definitely unsuitable for Adolin.

@maxal 

I was wondering if you could explain to me the idea of the "honor- oriented" spren and "cultivation oriented" spren. I get that you've subcategorised them this way and you've got a framework for it but I didn't know we knew this was a definite thing. Is there a WoB or something I've missed on the matter?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm surprised you put the Stormfather (who, iirc, is essentially Honor's spren -he calls himself this in WoR) in the Cultivation camp and I don't understand why. Isn't the Nahel bond intrinsically a thing of Honor? 

On the note of why the cultivationspren didn't pick Adolin, I think I see your point, but I was wondering if there is any real evidence for it. I mean, it is clear that cultivation spren are working as a team (called "the Ring" according to Wyndle) and that they had a few different candidates - Wyndle mentions a distinguished Iriali matron (WoR interlude) and Ym in Edgedancer. I know Ym is fairly lowly, but a "distinguished" matron implies someone with at least a degree of affluence and importance to my mind at least. From the WoR Interlude it is clear that "The Ring" operates on fairly democratic principles because Wyndle (who was ultimately bonded) is overruled. In such a system, wouldn't it be better to look at all the candidates available to them then decide? Well we don't know that didn't happen - it seems reasonable to think that Wyndle may mention other possible candidates to bond with in the future every time he gets irritated with Lift and perhaps they will mention Adolin? Point is, we can't rule it in because there is no evidence of it.

So anyway, if we accept that cultivationspren may not have chosen Adolin despite him possibly being a candidate, is it not more likely it was actually that they simply never got near him? Lift is from Rall Elorim (Iri), there was Ym in Iri, and it was an Iriali matron (likely living in Iri). Maybe it was simply a lack of proximity? Wyndle says cultivationspren are not a very important group of  spren - perhaps the Ring is a government of sorts in the areas they live (presumably near Iri)? Perhaps only spren from there are involved in tryong to bond and cultivationspren living elsewhere in Shadesmar aren't looking to bond at all? They chose appropriate people where they already were rather than go looking for them because it would be quicker and easier.

So, having made that argument, I'm now going to counter it. In order to get close to a human to bond, spren have to go into the oceans of Shadesmar and pop through to the physical world to be near them. That in itself surely makes it a difficult task, even if they are closer. We also don't know how long Wyndle was in the physical realm before joining with Lift. We know Syl had been in the physical realm for years before she bonded Kaladin, but it is implied that the cryptic bonding to Elokhar had literally only just come through. How long had they been watching her? How long had they been watching the others? How long had they spent looking for potential Edgedancers? Time is somewhat less relevant to spren because unlike humans it is clear that spren don't breathe, eat, drink or sleep, so travelling from one of Roshar to the other is going to be easier and quicker for them than a human would find it. As there is organisation behind the effort to bond Lift, don't we think that the Ring would send out scouts to look for as many potential candidates as possible? It is suggested that there are 2 Edgedancers created (at least) at similar times because both Ym and Lift are bonded. Wyndle may be a backup, but given the timeframe implied between Lift swearing her first oath and 2nd, it's not so unlikely that he was planned to join with someone at the same time as Ym bonded, or shortly after. Given the effort to ensure Wyndle kept his mind after transfer to the physical realm, wouldn't they  have wanted the best candidate possible to reduce the risk of them failing to swear and then live the Ideals? The whole thing for Lift's bond feel prepared and planned and executed with precision (approriate for cultivationspren), rather than something more emotional like Syl's bond to Kaladin feels. 

As I said, I'm not averse to the idea of Adolin going Edgedancer. I can see the evidence pointing that he will get there, I am much less clear that he had started on the path before he he sees Maya in Shadesmar.

New thought - i haven't seen it posted but I'm sure someone must have mentioned a similar idea here (sorry for repeating it if so):

How important is it that Adolin was physically in Shadesmar? Given the way the mind of the broken spren was forced into the physical realm during the Recreance (they were left as Sharblades and presumably almost completely disconnected from the cogntive realm) is it possible that because he was bonded to her (indeed tried to summon her) whilst in shadesmar that this has allowed her to put herself together a little bit? Reconnected her in some way, not only because of his perception but because her fragments are right next to each other and could look to connect? On top of that, Adolin also walks out of the perpendicularity at TC - which unites 3 separate realms and provides loads of stormlight which might have help her reunite the disparate bits of her mind? It seems she was already improving before he went through the perpendicularity so his perception of her must be important, but it doesn't have to be the only thing. 

 

[Steeldancer]

Ok i have no idea what's going on but it's simple:

Adolin clearly is reviving Maya. If he's not broken enough, I'll be story wise he'll become so. This is something we need to see. It'll be awesome. 

The end. 

[thegatorgirl00]

Ym was not actually an Edgedancer, @PhineasGage. Wyndle mentioned him as a potential candidate, but he was actually a Truthwatcher. 

Quote

Ted Herman (paraphrased)

Ym is confirmed to not be an Edgedancer. Does that mean that he would have become a Truthwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Source

[PhineasGage]

21 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Ym was not actually an Edgedancer, @PhineasGage. Wyndle mentioned him as a potential candidate, but he was actually a Truthwatcher. 

Source

Ah, my mistake. Thanks for that. In that case probably there was only one Edgedancer around and no others were sent through as a matter of course. That would still mean that they decided not to look for the best Roshar could offer them, but the best Iri could offer them? Doesn't that seem.... risky?

[Leyrann]

Maybe Lift fit so well because of what Cultivation did with her?

[thegatorgirl00]

1 minute ago, PhineasGage said:

Ah, my mistake. Thanks for that. In that case probably there was only one Edgedancer around and no others were sent through as a matter of course. That would still mean that they decided not to look for the best Roshar could offer them, but the best Iri could offer them? Doesn't that seem.... risky?

Lift does have her unique gifts from the Nightwatcher which were a large part of why she was chosen by the Cultivationspren. Even if they did look at more of Roshar than just Iri, I think she would have been chosen anyways due to the Nightwatcher's blessing. And Cultivationspren seem like they would care a lot less about bonding to someone in a position of importance than other spren. They seem to care more about the little people than influencing major world events. Even if they did look at Adolin, I think everything would have combined to make them choose Lift anyways. 

[Willow]

This isn't based on any clear-cut information from the books, but I'm starting to develop a theory that, in order to attract a spren, beside a certain amount of 'cracks in your spiritweb', your brokenness must have something to do with an order of Knights Radiant.

Kaladin is depressed, but he also wants to save everyone, even from a young age, and his failure to do so exacerbates his depression.

Shallan probably didn't grow up in a very happy home, so from a young age she's been lying to herself about this, pretending it wasn't true, increasing her brokenness.

Lift's mother apparently helped everyone, and Lift is angry at herself that she wasn't able to help her mother in return.

Adolin could be broken, and he could even be focused on helping the 'ignored people' of society, but due to his high position (the son of a Highprince, a shardbearer), he might've simply always had the capability to succeed at helping those he thought were in need. Thus he does not quite fulfill the 'broken by trying and failing to uphold these ideals part' of being a Knight Radiant.

But now there are people he wants to help, but can't, like Maya, like all the civilians in Thaylen City. So maybe things will start to change.

[Darvys]

@PhineasGage We have to keep in mind a few things too : For one they no longer had the time to scout the whole continent, the desolation was imminent. Nale was running around butchering radiants so we can't say for sure how far they roamed before settling for their close vicinity. And it's also safe to assume spren are as a rule rather lazy, they tend to flock to other radiants looking for a fit, as evidenced in this very book by the Honorspren, there could be better candidates out there than Kaladin's squires, yet they all chose to go to them. Nothing stops an independent spren from looking far afield, but most would go for the easier path.

[PhineasGage]

37 minutes ago, Darvys said:

For one they no longer had the time to scout the whole continent, the desolation was imminent

Well we know at least some spren started looking around Gavilar's assassination - Jasnah bonds Ivory then. I think it is also implied that Syl went through to the physical realm then - she knew Kal as a kid because she remembers bits about it. We also know that Pattern bonded Shallan at least 6 years ago because she killed her mother with a shardblade. I think that's long enough to go over the continent of Roshar. Granted we don't know all the spren were doing this, but 3 out of 10 is pretty good. On top of that the skybreakers are still bonding and the bondsmiths spren are unique, plus the stormfather was required to find people who could hear his visions - ie protobondsmiths. So of the 8 orders who had the freedom to search or not we know 3 of them were looking 6 years ago. We don;t know that the others weren't looking though, we only know that the lightspren weren't looking for humans. Eshonai was clearly kinda bonded to Timbre so the lightspren may have been trying to bond the Parshendi for ages but because of the war the Parshendi weren't letting themselves get bonded by random spren in the same way as they used to. Perhaps the cultivationspren started late, but it seems more than coincidence that 3 other spren types started looking and bonding at the same time.

 

48 minutes ago, Darvys said:

And it's also safe to assume spren are as a rule rather lazy, they tend to flock to other radiants looking for a fit, as evidenced in this very book by the Honorspren,

I think this is a bit of a leap. Kaladin is .likely inspiring his men to fit the ideals so it draws the honorspren. Not that they wont look elsewhere. And It doesn't fit with cryptics looking simultaneously at Shallan and Elhokar who were hundreds of miles apart. (nb he sees them in mirrors on the shattered plains when she is in Kharbranth).

[Darvys]

15 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Well we know at least some spren started looking around Gavilar's assassination ...

That's in part why i mentioned the Skybreakers' hunt, we can't know whether or not the Council had been looking elsewhere before, perhaps as they grew more desperate they started limiting the range of their search.

20 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I think this is a bit of a leap.  Kaladin is likely inspiring his men to fit the ideals so it draws the honorspren. Not that they wont look elsewhere. And It doesn't fit with cryptics looking simultaneously at Shallan and Elhokar who were hundreds of miles apart. (nb he sees them in mirrors on the shattered plains when she is in Kharbranth).

Yes you're right, It wasn't really criticism, it IS the smart thing to do, i was just playing with another possible explanation.

But now that i think of it, what are higher spren attracted to ? Thoughts ? Then they watch the actions for confirmation ?