[OB] Jezrien

[Pattern]

19 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Okay, but even that's a little suspect. We know that Heralds would die during Desolations. We also know that Radiants with stormlight are pretty much indestructible until they run out.

So, this "direct connection to Honor" probably doesn't mean limitless Investiture.

Getting the head squished by a thunderclast for example would also kill a KR or a Herald with limitless Investiture. As soon as the brain is destroyed, Healing will stop. A beheading is much more vague, curiously. The head could quickly grow a new body, as long as the brain is not dead (well it is a bit absurd, i know).

[Herdazian]

3 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Honorblades used to provide direct connection to Honor. I know that because I got the WoB that says so. 

They don't anymore, I think. But still. 

Also, what was up with that Odiumblade? It was a little freaky. 

So my interpretation is that the Odiums blade worked on the similar principle as capturing spren. However, what the blade captured was either the soul of Jezrien or , more likely, the divine aspect granted to Jezrien by Honour which sent his soul to Braize after he died. If he somehow captured that blessing bestowed by honour then Jezrien soul would not go to Braize but would pass on and that would result in a permanent death.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Herdazian

[LH1407]

I don't think Kaladin will become a Herald, but if he does it would be an insane way to end Book 5, with him being sent off to get tortured. Then he breaks after the gap between book 5 and 6 I guess. I still don't buy it though, I think Moash is like a corrupted Herald now.

[blackcatw81]

23 hours ago, Pattern said:

 

A different point: If we believe Nalan, Jezrien himself was no windrunner (Nalan believes he is the only Herald to have become a member of his own Order of KR), so his death should have no real impact on the powers of the windrunners. Most galling is that Moash is now in possession of the windrunner Honorblade. To become a Herald, Kaladin would have to fight him for that.

 

Aehm... Sorry, but.... Wasn't it Szeth who had the windrunner honorblade, then taken by Kaladin after their duel? ...and the honorblade granted the power of its order to the owner (without a Nahel bond).

I haven't already read OB and I'm reading these sections wanting SPOILERS

[Pattern]

24 minutes ago, blackcatw81 said:

I haven't already read OB and I'm reading these sections wanting SPOILERS

Well, you want spoilers.

Nalan is the Herald of the Skybreakers, additionally he has bonded a Highspren and sworn the Fifth Ideal. He believes he is the only Herald who has bonded a spren corresponding to "his" order of Knights Radiant.

Jezrien's blade went from Szeth to Kaladin to Dalinar to "hidden in toilet" to Bridge Four (rotating members), stolen by Taravangian (Malata or another of his cronies with a shardblade, RIP Eth), delivered to Odium, and finally ended with Moash (who earlier killed Jezrien for good with a strange Odiumblade, sucking something of the Herald into a gemstone. Reminded me somehow of a hemalurgic spike with a container for extracted Investiture). So Moash + Jezriens Honorblade + content of the gemstone = corrupted Herald?

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pattern

[blackcatw81]

Thank you @Pattern  can't wait can't wait

[Ryshadium]

This scene made me so sad. Especially after we saw Dalinar’s heart to heart with Jez earlier in the book.

What the heck is Moash’s knife, and where did it come from?

[IndigoAjah]

25 minutes ago, Ryshadium said:

This scene made me so sad. Especially after we saw Dalinar’s heart to heart with Jez earlier in the book.

What the heck is Moash’s knife, and where did it come from?

I'm gonna say it's a spike-gem combo. Spike to damage the soul and steal Connection/Investiture/Identity, gem to store it without leakage and with more practical, almost metal mind like, access

[Shadowmancer]

21 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Honorblades used to provide direct connection to Honor. I know that because I got the WoB that says so. 

They don't anymore, I think. But still. 

Also, what was up with that Odiumblade? It was a little freaky. 

 

17 hours ago, Herdazian said:

So my interpretation is that the Odiums blade worked on the similar principle as capturing spren. However, what the blade captured was either the soul of Jezrien or , more likely, the divine aspect granted to Jezrien by Honour which sent his soul to Braize after he died. If he somehow captured that blessing bestowed by honour then Jezrien soul would not go to Braize but would pass on and that would result in a permanent death.

 

7 hours ago, Pattern said:

Moash (who earlier killed Jezrien for good with a strange Odiumblade, sucking something of the Herald into a gemstone. Reminded me somehow of a hemalurgic spike with a container for extracted Investiture). So Moash + Jezriens Honorblade + content of the gemstone = corrupted Herald?

 

33 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

I'm gonna say it's a spike-gem combo. Spike to damage the soul and steal Connection/Investiture/Identity, gem to store it without leakage and with more practical, almost metal mind like, access

I personally think this is exactly what has had everyone scared Witless about hermalurgy. It can steal divine aspects when applied correctly. I'm very, very intrigued to see where this goes. If it can steal that large of a Connection, then I have no doubt Odium will corrupt it to his own ends, as he seems to have done with the spren on Roshar in large measure already.

[taxilian]

So... what do we think? Is the blade that Moash kills Jezrien with a hemalurgic spike? Seems like it'd fit... he stabs him in the gut, not the heart, but it seems to have latched out his soul in some way (which one would expect to actually kill him in that way) where a shardblade, etc would likely not be sufficient. 

[Shadowmancer]

We've been discussing such possibilities here 

[Tarion]

4 minutes ago, taxilian said:

So... what do we think? Is the blade that Moash kills Jezrien with a hemalurgic spike? Seems like it'd fit... he stabs him in the gut, not the heart, but it seems to have latched out his soul in some way (which one would expect to actually kill him in that way) where a shardblade, etc would likely not be sufficient. 

Interestingly, isn't that where the Parshendi gemhearts are? Kaladin stabs a Fused in one, IIRC, and it's lower down than the heart. I'll find a quote, but it may take me a while. 

Not saying the Heralds necessarily grew gemhearts (Although I wouldn't be surprised if Radiants did with the 5th Oath), but it might be an important location Hemalurgically, if that's where the Parshendi have their gemhearts. 

[Pagerunner]

I think the gold metal is intentionally reminiscent of Odium's associations with gold. I think it's Odium's god metal, and that this is an Odiumblade. The way the sapphire in the pommel glowed made me think that Jezrien's soul was converted into Stormlight, basically; consumed and transformed into a form that Moash could use. Similar to how Kaladin 'drew upon' Syl when he and Shallan fell into the chasm, or when Preservation sacrificed his mind to imprison Ruin. Odium gave them a new weapon to kill Jezrien, to actually kill him.

[RShara]

It made me think of malantium (sp) from Scadrial.

[taxilian]

3 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I think the gold metal is intentionally reminiscent of Odium's associations with gold. I think it's Odium's god metal, and that this is an Odiumblade. The way the sapphire in the pommel glowed made me think that Jezrien's soul was converted into Stormlight, basically; consumed and transformed into a form that Moash could use. Similar to how Kaladin 'drew upon' Syl when he and Shallan fell into the chasm, or when Preservation sacrificed his mind to imprison Ruin. Odium gave them a new weapon to kill Jezrien, to actually kill him.

That sounds a lot like hemalurgy to me... if it captured his soul / investiture the gemstone might have helped prevent the deterioration which normal hemalurgic spikes experience.

[Ari]

22 hours ago, Pattern said:

Well, you want spoilers.

Nalan is the Herald of the Skybreakers, additionally he has bonded a Highspren and sworn the Fifth Ideal. He believes he is the only Herald who has bonded a spren corresponding to "his" order of Knights Radiant.

Jezrien's blade went from Szeth to Kaladin to Dalinar to "hidden in toilet" to Bridge Four (rotating members), stolen by Taravangian (Malata or another of his cronies with a shardblade, RIP Eth), delivered to Odium, and finally ended with Moash (who earlier killed Jezrien for good with a strange Odiumblade, sucking something of the Herald into a gemstone. Reminded me somehow of a hemalurgic spike with a container for extracted Investiture). So Moash + Jezriens Honorblade + content of the gemstone = corrupted Herald?

Yep, I'm going with "killed with a Raysium knife to suck his ghost into a gem" as Jezrien's cause of disappearance. (we won't say death because can heralds even "die" as such, at least beyond the "for certain values of dead" caveat? Guess we'll RAFO.)

I don't know that the idea is necessarily to get a corrupted herald though, although that certainly would break the Oathpact as they could simply have their corrupted Herald do an end-run around the gap between desolations, I'm not actually sure it's that easy, as it may not even be possible to cleanly confer the spritual identity of a sworn part of the Oathpact that way. I think Odium's going for the opposite of Jasnah's strategy: she wanted to assassinate the heralds to end the desolation, Odium wants to trap them all to prevent it ending.

Besides, Nale is going to side with the Parshendi. You presumably wouldn't need to corrupt a herald if you've got a volunteer.

[IndigoAjah]

8 minutes ago, Ari said:

Yep, I'm going with "killed with a Raysium knife to suck his ghost into a gem" as Jezrien's cause of disappearance. (we won't say death because can heralds even "die" as such, at least beyond the "for certain values of dead" caveat? Guess we'll RAFO.)

I don't know that the idea is necessarily to get a corrupted herald though, although that certainly would break the Oathpact as they could simply have their corrupted Herald do an end-run around the gap between desolations, I'm not actually sure it's that easy, as it may not even be possible to cleanly confer the spritual identity of a sworn part of the Oathpact that way. I think Odium's going for the opposite of Jasnah's strategy: she wanted to assassinate the heralds to end the desolation, Odium wants to trap them all to prevent it ending.

Besides, Nale is going to side with the Parshendi. You presumably wouldn't need to corrupt a herald if you've got a volunteer.

Nale siding with the Parshendi may not eventually mean siding with Odium

[Ari]

Just now, IndigoAjah said:

Nale siding with the Parshendi may not eventually mean siding with Odium

Sure, that's reasonable, as we eventually see with Aesudan, Venli, Moash, Amaram, and Taravangian, it's likely to be much more complicated than just Humans vs Parshendi.

Although Odium is very good at seeing the general shape of events, so he should be able to at least make a very convincing pitch that the best way to get the Parshendi their planet back is to side with him, so Raysium knife to corrupt an unwilling Herald when you can simply try and talk a different one around is going a little overboard.

[Kav]

On 11/14/2017 at 1:32 PM, Salkara said:

Yeah, Oathpact is gone, but we're not done with this yet. Why were the Fused scared of killing Jezrien?

I think the answer to this one is that they realize they could be permanently ended in the same way. If that knife can kill a Herald by somehow capturing a piece of their soul and preventing rebirth, I’m betting it can do the same for the Fused. Which is why I see this being VERY important going forward. 

[Pattern]

On 16.11.2017 at 4:24 AM, Pagerunner said:

The way the sapphire in the pommel glowed made me think that Jezrien's soul was converted into Stormlight, basically;

Mark how sapphire fits with the order of windrunners.

[bo.montier]

On 11/15/2017 at 9:29 PM, taxilian said:

That sounds a lot like hemalurgy to me... if it captured his soul / investiture the gemstone might have helped prevent the deterioration which normal hemalurgic spikes experience.

My understanding of investiture is that you can use the ability you gained/have from the investiture on one planet/system on another, but that you can't develop investiture from a foreign system...meaning you can't BECOME an allomancer on Roshar, but you can use allomancy on Roshar if you're already an allomancer. I'm definitely not 100% sure on this, but it makes sense to me.

I think to use hemalurgy to capture a surgebinder's ability, you would have to take them to Scadrial to steal their abilities. 

Again this is my understanding, and it is in part predicated on the fact that Hemalurgy is Ruin's investiture, not a generic cosmere system

[dendrophobe]

22 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

 

I think to use hemalurgy to capture a surgebinder's ability, you would have to take them to Scadrial to steal their abilities. 

Again this is my understanding, and it is in part predicated on the fact that Hemalurgy is Ruin's investiture, not a generic cosmere system

Absolutely not. Hemalurgy can be used anywhere in the Cosmere. In fact, this is part of what makes it so dangerous, and relevant to the Cosmere at large. Khriss is very interested in its potential, and that's not because it's bound to Scadrial.

Quote

dougpgc (paraphrased)

Could Hemalurgy be performed anywhere in the Cosmere

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

dougpgc (paraphrased)

So Hemalurgy is unique because not only can the power of Ruin be accessed anywhere (not just on Scadrial), but also by anyone (not just someone who's invested)?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It is weird that way.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/113/#e2622

You can even use hemalurgy to steal a Shardblade from someone. The living kind would be harder, because there's free will involved with the spren, but you could steal a dead one.

Edited November 17, 2017 by dendrophobe

[Blacksmithki]

17 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

My understanding of investiture is that you can use the ability you gained/have from the investiture on one planet/system on another, but that you can't develop investiture from a foreign system...meaning you can't BECOME an allomancer on Roshar, but you can use allomancy on Roshar if you're already an allomancer. I'm definitely not 100% sure on this, but it makes sense to me.

I think to use hemalurgy to capture a surgebinder's ability, you would have to take them to Scadrial to steal their abilities. 

Again this is my understanding, and it is in part predicated on the fact that Hemalurgy is Ruin's investiture, not a generic cosmere system

Hemalurgy can be used anywhere in the cosmere, per ars arcana of one of the mistborn books (not sure what one off the top of my head)

Also, in this book we see awakening (nightblood, wit's doll moving, presumably azure's sword)

It would seem paintings for invested people work off world although that is kinda unclear how it would work.

We see Hoid using Yolen magic in warbreaker and stormlight archives with his storytelling

Vasher and Azure can both change their appearence with awakening and divine breath and also, Vasher not dying is a pretty good sign he can use stormlight for breath (yes IK there is a WoB on this i don't know where to find it)

The only requirement to become an allomancer is genetic or lerasium, same with feruchamy the only location based magic is from Sel

Well, ninja'd making a long post.

[bo.montier]

1 minute ago, dendrophobe said:

Absolutely not. Hemalurgy can be used anywhere in the Cosmere. In fact, this is part of what makes it so dangerous, and relevant to the Cosmere at large. Khriss is very interested in its potential, and that's not because it's bound to Scadrial.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/113/#e2622

You can even use hemalurgy to steal a Shardblade from someone. The living kind would be harder, because there's free will involved with the spren, but you could steal a dead one.

Well then...I stand corrected.

Thanks for the info :-) 

Wow...The implications...

[Vissy]

Back on Discord, we had some talk about this. One of us mentioned that it might've been a Dawnshard, and another dubbed it as a Raysium dagger. Personally, I think Raysium makes sense, what with Odium's associations with gold - it's actually a pretty obvious connection to make, and I'm certain that Brandon at least intended for people to make that connection. What I find curious about the dagger is not so much its coloring, though, as the sapphire gemstone at the dagger's pommel. The sapphire trailed dark smoke after killing Jezrien. What could that mean? Trailing dark smoke? What else in the cosmere trails dark smoke? It couldn't be a Hemalurgic spike, could it?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Vissy