[OB] Jezrien

[Leyrann]

With Jezrien dead, Kaladin will become the new Herald to lead the Windrunners. This is also why he does things that even Syl doesn’t realize are possible – Kaladin is going to be more than just a Knight Radiant.

Edit: Figured I'd add this in, which I totally forgot about:

2 hours ago, Pattern said:

Another point to this: Syl seems to be the only ancient Honorspren left who was created by Honor herself and is not dead. Even the Stormfather in his current form is younger than her. I wonder whether Kaladin can do unusual things like breaking the winds because of this.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Leyrann

[Guest]

Yeah, that sounds plausible.

[Chaos]

Edited the topic title to be less spoilery.

[IntentAwesome]

16 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

With Jezrien dead, Kaladin will become the new Herald to lead the Windrunners. This is also why he does things that even Syl doesn’t realize are possible – Kaladin is going to be more than just a Knight Radiant.

If that’s the case, then I really hope Jasnah’s whole let’s just convince the heralds to go back to torture idea doesn’t pan out. 

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, IntentAwesome said:

If that’s the case, then I really hope Jasnah’s whole let’s just convince the heralds to go back to torture idea doesn’t pan out. 

I don't think a 10-book epic in the Cosmere is going to end with a return to the status quo. Don't we have a WoB somewhere that "Stormlight Archive is a turning point in the Cosmere"?

[IntentAwesome]

I agree. I don’t really think this will happen, though I can potentially see it being something they use to buy themselves time, maybe in the gap between books 5 and 6. 

But if it did happen, poor Kal!

im not really sure, at this point, what the difference between being the leader of the windrunners is and being a herald. Unless what Dalinar has become is enough to “fuel” the heralds directly, I’m not sure the heralds will ever be what they were. 

[Guest]

The Oathpact was Honor's idea. Honor is dead. It is time for a different approach.

[Pattern]

Another point to this: Syl seems to be the only ancient Honorspren left who was created by Honor the Stormfather herself before the Splintering and is not dead. Even the Stormfather in his current form is younger than her. I wonder whether Kaladin can do unusual things like breaking the winds because of this.

On 14.11.2017 at 7:45 AM, SLNC said:

The Oathpact was Honor's idea. Honor is dead. It is time for a different approach.

With Moash running around killing Heralds for good, the Oathpact is in serious danger anyway. Hoid (Midius) handing out pictures of the Heralds is probably not helpful either. Here Frosts accusation of Hoid meddling around like a child in the workshop of his father comes to my mind.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pattern
Correction

[Aminar]

I don't buy it. He was doing this stuff before Moash killed Jesrian. And it was just an inverted pressure surge. Creating a pressure bubble rather than a vacuum. Sound weather science.

 

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, Aminar said:

He was doing this stuff before Moash killed Jesrian.

That doesn't mean he isn't getting groomed. Both the Shards still alive on Roshar are good at seeing the future. And while the Heralds were originally from Honor, Cultivation has participated a lot in the whole process as well.

[Aminar]

10 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

That doesn't mean he isn't getting groomed. Both the Shards still alive on Roshar are good at seeing the future. And while the Heralds were originally from Honor, Cultivation has participated a lot in the whole process as well.

I don't buy it. Cultivation has little to do with Kal's surges and Odium is doing other things. We're not going to see new heralds or a new Oathpact. They're outdated. The conflict has to end. The Oathpact failed the first time the Heralds broke. 

[Pattern]

40 minutes ago, Aminar said:

And it was just an inverted pressure surge. Creating a pressure bubble rather than a vacuum. Sound weather science.

Windrunners' surges are Adhesion and Gravitation. Pressure manipulation is none of those two. It has been speculated that Windrunners could fly to the moons, as far as I know, Team Sanderson has calculated flight times, so increasing air pressure seems to be a thing for them. The windshield might not be unique to Kaladin, but it definitely is not one of the standard surges (Adhesion does not work with underpressure, it is facilitated by molecular forces between different substances - like glue). Perhaps this is the Windrunner resonance but "just an inverted pressure surge" is downplaying it a bit.

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Windrunners' surges are Adhesion and Gravitation. Pressure manipulation is none of those two. It has been speculated that Windrunners could fly to the moons, as far as I know, Team Sanderson has calculated flight times, so increasing air pressure seems to be a thing for them. The windshield might not be unique to Kaladin, but it definitely is not one of the standard surges (Adhesion does not work with underpressure, it is facilitated by molecular forces between different substances - like glue). Perhaps this is the Windrunner resonance but "just an inverted pressure surge" is downplaying it a bit.

This was my train of thought for a while too, but it seems like "adhesion" is just a super bad name for the Surge, and it does actually work with pressure. I believe there's even a WoB on it, though I'm not sure.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Leyrann

[natc]

Adhesion does in fact function based on pressure and vacuum as its basis for sticking things. It's a pretty bad name, but then again "lashings" cover two completely different surges outright, so I suspect they originated from people who never studied their powers in depth . . .

[Subvisual Haze]

6 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Windrunners' surges are Adhesion and Gravitation. Pressure manipulation is none of those two. It has been speculated that Windrunners could fly to the moons, as far as I know, Team Sanderson has calculated flight times, so increasing air pressure seems to be a thing for them. The windshield might not be unique to Kaladin, but it definitely is not one of the standard surges (Adhesion does not work with underpressure, it is facilitated by molecular forces between different substances - like glue). Perhaps this is the Windrunner resonance but "just an inverted pressure surge" is downplaying it a bit.

You might want to check out the end of the book notes about the magic systems.  Kris now has a new sentence in there about Adhesion likely being a force related to Atmospheric Pressure.

This makes sense. A magical vacuum zone between two objects would make them "stick" together.  Similarly, creating an artificial high pressure zone of air in front of him could serve to redirect the winds in a Highstorm.  Air flows from high to low pressure areas, a fixed high pressure area would bend the wind around it.

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

You might want to check out the end of the book notes about the magic systems.  Kris now has a new sentence in there about Adhesion likely being a force related to Atmospheric Pressure.

This makes sense. A magical vacuum zone between two objects would make them "stick" together.  Similarly, creating an artificial high pressure zone of air in front of him could serve to redirect the winds in a Highstorm.  Air flows from high to low pressure areas, a fixed high pressure area would bend the wind around it.

The problem here is that "adhesion", as it is used scientifically in our world, refers specifically to different compounds sticking together because of microscopic interactions, most often the forming of chemical bonds. And only that. Brandon just chose a very bad name for the Surge. I realize "Pressure" sounds less poetic, but it is a much, much better name.

I suspect something similar to be the case for Tension and Cohesion, two other well-defined chemical terms, but we haven't seen enough about those yet to know for sure.

[Blazenella]

We'll honestly have to wait and see if Dalinar can do something similar, as he also has the Adhesion surge. If he can't then it may be windrunner exclusive, or even Kal exclusive

[Leyrann]

7 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

We'll honestly have to wait and see if Dalinar can do something similar, as he also has the Adhesion surge. If he can't then it may be windrunner exclusive, or even Kal exclusive

We've got direct proof that different Orders use Surges differently though: the Stormfather at some point tells Dalinar, when he sees a Stoneward using Tension, that Dalinar can use that Surge too, but in a different way. So we don't know wheter there'll be any actual overlap.

[Aminar]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

Windrunners' surges are Adhesion and Gravitation. Pressure manipulation is none of those two. It has been speculated that Windrunners could fly to the moons, as far as I know, Team Sanderson has calculated flight times, so increasing air pressure seems to be a thing for them. The windshield might not be unique to Kaladin, but it definitely is not one of the standard surges (Adhesion does not work with underpressure, it is facilitated by molecular forces between different substances - like glue). Perhaps this is the Windrunner resonance but "just an inverted pressure surge" is downplaying it a bit.

And Adhesion is described as Pressure and Vacuum. In fact the Ars arcanum says, in regards to fulllashings. "I believe this  surge may have something to do with atmospheric pressure." 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Aminar

[Subvisual Haze]

57 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

The problem here is that "adhesion", as it is used scientifically in our world, refers specifically to different compounds sticking together because of microscopic interactions, most often the forming of chemical bonds. And only that. Brandon just chose a very bad name for the Surge. I realize "Pressure" sounds less poetic, but it is a much, much better name.

I suspect something similar to be the case for Tension and Cohesion, two other well-defined chemical terms, but we haven't seen enough about those yet to know for sure.

That's not necessarily a fault on Brandon's part as much as an in world phenomena.  Roshar likely hasn't progressed enough scientifically to properly name and categorize the underlying force.

[Blazenella]

I do like the idea of Kaladin beefing up with some specific powers. The Windrunners were described as one of the biggest orders, even if you don't count the squires. I want my main man Kal to stand out a little with some of his own powers. On the subject of him becoming a Herald, it might be cool but I think the heralds are gone. The oathpact worked for a while, but the time of the heralds is over.

[Pattern]

 

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

For a Windrunner, if he had enough heating fabrials and enough Stormlight, how high up could he get?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You could exit orbit. Windrunners, remember they're gravitation and pressure. So if he knew what he was doing, we have actually factored how long it would take to get to the various moons.

 

Thank you, Arcanum, for the WoB.

Looks like Adhesion is indeed a misnomer.

Nonetheless, the windshield seems to be more than a normal lashing, since Kaladin had the help of many windspren. For sticking stuff together, only Stormlight is needed (and gluespren can be seen between the objects). You could compare the windshield to Kaladins situation in Shadesmar, where windspren came into the Cognitive Realm, sensing they might be needed, although their home is in the Physical Realm. Had Kaladin sworn his fourth Oath, he probably would have gotten Shardplate. The windshield seemed to be a kind of proto-plate for me, windspren feeling an affinity to Kaladin and therefore helping him blocking the storm. Instead of coalescing around the body of the KR, they took the form of a cone instead. We have already seen Syl trying to block the wind when Kaladin was hanging in the Highstorm in WoK. One spren had little to no effect, hundreds of spren obviously were much more potent.

A different point: If we believe Nalan, Jezrien himself was no windrunner (Nalan believes he is the only Herald to have become a member of his own Order of KR), so his death should have no real impact on the powers of the windrunners. Most galling is that Moash is now in possession of the windrunner Honorblade. To become a Herald, Kaladin would have to fight him for that.

I agree with those of you who think the Oathpact as being obsolete. A new solution should be found in the future. To stop the Fused from returning from the dead, it might be enough to kill one or more Heralds in the conventional way (not using the Odiumblade Moash used to kill Jezrien). I see a hunt for Heralds coming, Moash wanting to kill them for good while others want to send them back to Braize...

[Salkara]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

I agree with those of you who think the Oathpact as being obsolete. A new solution should be found in the future. To stop the Fused from returning from the dead, it might be enough to kill one or more Heralds in the conventional way (not using the Odiumblade Moash used to kill Jezrien). I see a hunt for Heralds coming, Moash wanting to kill them for good while others want to send them back to Braize...

Yeah, Oathpact is gone, but we're not done with this yet. Why were the Fused scared of killing Jezrien? Why did it have to be Moash? Also, the Stormfather indicated that there's something greater to the honorblades:

Quote

With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly.

What else can an honorblade grant besides access to the surges? The Oathpact (as originally devised) may be on its way out, but there's something else here which I feel is going to play a huge part in the series.

[Steeldancer]

7 hours ago, Salkara said:

Yeah, Oathpact is gone, but we're not done with this yet. Why were the Fused scared of killing Jezrien? Why did it have to be Moash? Also, the Stormfather indicated that there's something greater to the honorblades:

What else can an honorblade grant besides access to the surges? The Oathpact (as originally devised) may be on its way out, but there's something else here which I feel is going to play a huge part in the series.

Honorblades used to provide direct connection to Honor. I know that because I got the WoB that says so. 

They don't anymore, I think. But still. 

Also, what was up with that Odiumblade? It was a little freaky. 

[Salkara]

2 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Honorblades used to provide direct connection to Honor. I know that because I got the WoB that says so. 

They don't anymore, I think. But still. 

Also, what was up with that Odiumblade? It was a little freaky. 

Okay, but even that's a little suspect. We know that Heralds would die during Desolations. We also know that Radiants with stormlight are pretty much indestructible until they run out.

So, this "direct connection to Honor" probably doesn't mean limitless Investiture. If it did, how would the Heralds ever die? Also, if the honorblades can do more than grant surgebinding even now that Honor is dead... I have to imagine there's something more to them than what's been let on.