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[OB] Fourth Windrunner Ideal


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8 hours ago, Marethyu316 said:

I think that the epigraph for chapter 86 gives a clue:

It sounded like something that Kaladin would struggle with as well, and he then went on to not being able to say it. That made me wonder if it isn't something like, "I will let people protect themselves, if they are able" or something like that. It seems like Kaladin has a hang up about needing to protect everyone, including members of Bridge Four who were in the midst of learning to protect themselves. 

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that is right now that I finished the book, but it's what I thought when I read that epigraph.

Looking at that epigraph, maybe it is something like "I will let go of those I cannot help?"

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So I feel the oath might lean towards the prayer that goes: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

 Perhaps something like:

I will protect the people I can, accept that I cannot protect them all, and understand that true leaders know the difference.

 

I see this as relating directly to Lirin's statements regarding Kaladin growing calluses. It is desperately important to care, but to do so in a somewhat disconnected fashion, particularly when working to heal others. Kaladin, despite his obvious talents as a soldier is a natural healer. He wants to help people so badly it consumes him. Leadership though, is different. The 'calculus of war' requires that hard decisions are made. Indeed Kaladin already makes them in some ways and will only have to go further. He wants to protect Bridge Four. This is a good thing - he should care for his men. BUT he needs them to fight to protect those who cannot protect themselves. So, there is only one sensible option and that is to have them fight with as much training and support as possible as well as good leadership decisions, so others without that training and support don't have to. Kaladin can't be everywhere, or do everythng. He needs to learn to let go of some of his self-blame and understand that responsibility and blame are not the same thing. He is responsible for the men he leads, but if he doesnt let them fight, he will be to blame for allowing deaths to occur that he could have prevented. Its about balance and choice.

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8 hours ago, Kevino36 said:

A lot of these suggestions have been really Amaram-y. Considering the way he turned out, I really hope that they aren't the Fourth Ideal.

There is a difference between accepting the sacrifice others make (and their choice inherent in that), triage (accepting your limits, the Serendipity) and what Amaram does which is placing the destination ahead of the journey and sacrificing others to get there.

 

Kal doesn't understand this yet. Amaram never could, and uses that misunderstanding to throw accusations of "not so different" at Dalinar, but he is wrong. 

 

The same is true when people compare Jasnah's cold prioritisation to Amaram's selfish sacrifice of others to further his ends. Jasnah's approach is another version of the Journey, a moral path, almost anathema to Kaladin's but consistent and logical and there. Amaram's lacks any morality and as Kal reminds him in their final battle, he himself knows it even if he can't accept it.

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When Kaladin says: 

Quote

“Elhokar,” Kaladin said, gripping the king’s shoulder. “Be a hero to the one you can save.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 814). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

I remember thinking that it wouldn't hurt Kaladin to listen to his own advice.

"I will accept that I cannot protect all who need protecting."? This is similar to many of the above, but the fact that he said it to Elhokar and it made me want to shake some sense into him, suggests that there's something there.

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Here is the three parts of this scene put together:

Quote

Kaladin fell to his knees on the cold obsidian of Shadesmar. Fused descended around them, six figures in brilliant, flapping clothing. He had a single slim hope. Each Ideal he’d spoken had resulted in an outpouring of power and strength. He licked his lips and tried whispering it. “I … I will…” He thought of friends lost. Malop. Jaks. Beld and Pedin. Say it, storm you! “I…” Rod and Mart. Bridgemen he’d failed. And before them, slaves he’d tried to save. Goshel. Nalma, caught in a trap like a beast. A windspren appeared near him, like a line of light. Then another. A single hope. The Words. Say the Words!

Kaladin stuttered, the Words stumbling. He thought of his men from Amaram’s army. Dallet and his squad, slain either by Shallan’s brother or by Amaram. Such good friends who had fallen. And then, of course, he thought of Tien.

Kaladin thought, finally, of Dalinar. Could Kaladin do it? Could he really say these Words? Could he mean them? The Fused swept close. Adolin bled. “I…” You know what you need to do. “I … can’t,” Kaladin finally whispered, tears streaming down his cheeks. “I can’t lose him, but … oh, Almighty … I can’t save him.” Kaladin bowed his head, sagging forward, trembling. He couldn’t say those Words. He wasn’t strong enough. Syl’s arms enfolded him from behind, and he felt softness as her cheek pressed against the back of his neck. She pulled him tight as he wept, sobbing, at his failure.

The fact that he knows the words but cannot speak them, while thinking of all the people he failed to protect, makes me think it relates to letting go of people he lost. He cares deeply for these people and is still grieving over every one, and probably feels that letting go of them is too painful or a betrayal of his connection to them. This is common in the loss of a loved one, where people can’t move on because they are afraid they will lose that person forever, and it can cripple them to where they can't act in the present. I can't think of anything else that would make him sob openly than the thought of letting Tien go. There is a fine line between caring too much and caring too little, and I think he'll need to find that to be able to say these words.

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To him personally, I think it relates to letting the dead go. For other windrunners it may be about other more personalized Oaths, but always relating to a big personal dragon.

Two Windrunner points from OB I don't think have been brought up

1. Windspren are nearly confirmed as been related to Plate

2. How funny is it that Kaladin has ended up bonded to who is basically the Princess of the Honorspren? :D 

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Two Windrunner points from OB I don't think have been brought up

1. Windspren are nearly confirmed as been relaed to Plate

2. How funny is it that Kaladin has ended up bonded to who is basically the Princess of the Honorspren? :D

1. Also because we know from Szeth's chapters that the Fourth Ideal grants Plate.

2. Actually really funny once you think about it. Thanks. :)

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"I will always protect, even if the cause is hopeless."

Even though it's rather Stoneward-y, the windspren are attracted to Kaladin most when he is attempting hopeless things, instead of giving up and throwing in the towel. 

He could have let those people die in the Highstorm.  Syl thought he was crazy to stay. It's also a nice contrast to Amaram, who is perfectly willing to write people off for "the greater good".

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Sparks said:

"I will always protect, even if the cause is hopeless."

Even though it's rather Stoneward-y, the windspren are attracted to Kaladin most when he is attempting hopeless things, instead of giving up and throwing in the towel. 

He could have let those people die in the Highstorm.  Syl thought he was crazy to stay. It's also a nice contrast to Amaram, who is perfectly willing to write people off for "the greater good".

No, I don't believe that, simply because I don't believe Kaladin would have trouble speaking that Ideal.

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9 minutes ago, Beatsmorn said:

I think this will be something about deciding arbitrary WHO to protect, like Skybreakers decide arbitrary which code to they follow. It was mentioned in epigraphs, what those who Orders weren't so distinct as they thought.

That would directly contradict "I will protect even those I hate", though.

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53 minutes ago, Starla said:

Here is the three parts of this scene put together:

The fact that he knows the words but cannot speak them, while thinking of all the people he failed to protect, makes me think it relates to letting go of people he lost. He cares deeply for these people and is still grieving over every one, and probably feels that letting go of them is too painful or a betrayal of his connection to them. This is common in the loss of a loved one, where people can’t move on because they are afraid they will lose that person forever, and it can cripple them to where they can't act in the present. I can't think of anything else that would make him sob openly than the thought of letting Tien go. There is a fine line between caring too much and caring too little, and I think he'll need to find that to be able to say these words.

There's a huge difference between just saying the words, and actually being able to live them though.

That's actually a disturbing line of thought on further reflection.  If we assume the oaths themselves don't fundamentally transform your personality, if Kaladin swore to not overly dwell on the deaths of those he cared about but then found his thoughts continuing to drift in that direction would he be in conflict with his oaths?  Would his bond with Syl start to fray?

I think it's important to note that Oaths have tended to focus on actions, not thoughts.  Like Augstine said "'The mind commands the body and is instantly obeyed. The mind commands itself and meets resistance."  You can't just force your thought patterns to change.  Oh how nice the world would be if you could though.

So while I think you're certainly on the right path, I have to imagine the oath is phrased in more action-focused than thought-focused way.

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1 minute ago, Subvisual Haze said:

That's actually a disturbing line of thought on further reflection.  If we assume the oaths themselves don't fundamentally transform your personality, if Kaladin swore to not overly dwell on the deaths of those he cared about but then found his thoughts continuing to drift in that direction would he be in conflict with his oaths?  Would his bond with Syl start to fray?

Then it's probably a good thing he didn't say the Words yet...

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46 minutes ago, Sparks said:

"I will always protect, even if the cause is hopeless."

Even though it's rather Stoneward-y, the windspren are attracted to Kaladin most when he is attempting hopeless things, instead of giving up and throwing in the towel. 

He could have let those people die in the Highstorm.  Syl thought he was crazy to stay. It's also a nice contrast to Amaram, who is perfectly willing to write people off for "the greater good".

 

 

Given what the gemstone said about the 4th Ideal, it seems unlikely that this would be the concept.

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1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

I realized what one of the Willshaper oaths will be today

I will go where no one has gone before. 

will they go boldly?
Along the same lines...

Before I found this thread I was wondering if the ideal would be "I will put the needs of the many before the needs of the few"

Kal has a tenancy to run toward the few.
Protecting Bridge4 at the expense of a whole bridge run
Going back to Hearthstone and trying to convince his parents to leave.
Leaving without notice when missing bridgemen called.

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2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

There's a huge difference between just saying the words, and actually being able to live them though.

That's actually a disturbing line of thought on further reflection.  If we assume the oaths themselves don't fundamentally transform your personality, if Kaladin swore to not overly dwell on the deaths of those he cared about but then found his thoughts continuing to drift in that direction would he be in conflict with his oaths?  Would his bond with Syl start to fray?

I think it's important to note that Oaths have tended to focus on actions, not thoughts.  Like Augstine said "'The mind commands the body and is instantly obeyed. The mind commands itself and meets resistance."  You can't just force your thought patterns to change.  Oh how nice the world would be if you could though.

So while I think you're certainly on the right path, I have to imagine the oath is phrased in more action-focused than thought-focused way.

This is an interesting distinction, and I think it is why it is such a difficult oath to make. In the text he says "Could he really say these Words? Could he mean them?" (italics in the book) He knows that he needs to truly embody the oath once he makes it, and he is not ready. He has to make a fundamental change in himself, and this takes time, healing, and growth as a person. The epigraph about the Windrunners implies that the fourth ideal is a hard one, not just for Kaladin but the order as a whole. It makes sense that a person whose fundamental nature is to save and protect would have a hard time dealing with losing those under under their protection. An oath related to letting go of the lost would help keep them from eventually being consumed by grief.

I do think there are ways to change repetitive emotions and thought patterns. It's not easy, it takes time and practice, but I think it is will be necessary for Kaladin, or any Knight Radiant, to fulfill their potential in a healthy way. The KR are at war and Kaladin will keep losing people. He can't shove the hard feelings into the back of his mind like Shallan can, so he's going to have to learn to deal with it sooner or later. Hopefully sooner, so it's not too drawn out (plus I want to see that shardplate).

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