[OB] Source of the Perpendicularity on First of the Sun

[WeiryWriter Prime]

So in Part Two of Oathbringer we get the following letter, presumably from Bavadin to Hoid:

Quote

Cephandrius, bearer of the First Gem,

You must know better than to approach us by relying upon past presumption of relationship.42 You have spoken to one who cannot respond. We, instead, will take your communication to us—though we know not how you located us upon this world.43 We are indeed intrigued, for we thought it well hidden. Insignificant among our many realms.44 As the waves of the sea must continue to surge, so must our will continue resolute.

Alone.45

Did you expect anything else from us? We need not suffer the interference of another. Rayse is contained, and we care not for his prison.46 Indeed, we admire his initiative. Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favorable audience.47 But we stand in the sea, pleased with our domains. Leave us alone.48 We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai. We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there.

She is young yet, and—as a precaution—she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you.50 This is all we will say at this time. If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created.

Only in this will you earn our respect.51

This letter gives a little more insight into Bavadin’s psyche, namely the part where she seems to have multiple personas. Also see this WoB:

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Brandon Sanderson

Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.

This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

(source)

My, somewhat crack-y, theory is that the specific persona writing to Hoid here is located on First of the Sun and is the source for the Patji’s Eye Perpendicularity. My primary reasoning for this is the distinctly watery theme of her language. What world do we know that also has a strong watery theme? That’s right, First of the Sun. In fact, according to Khriss in her essay about the Drominad system:

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All four of these planets have water as a dominant feature.

Bavadin also mentions that she thought this aspect was well-hidden, that the world it resides on was “insignificant among our many realms”. Personally this screams First of the Sun to me. I would wager a guess that the entire island Pantheon consists of aspects of Bavadin.

There is also a more meta reasoning, in that I don’t think Brandon would include a letter from some random part of the cosmere. I think he would be more likely to keep things to the parts that we know and have experience with.

For more discussion on this check out the Shardcast episode on the Part Two epigraphs, coming out soon!

Edit: And here it is!

[FirstSelector Ferring]

I like this quite a lot.

Another thought - at least as we have seen it, the Perpendicularity on First of the Sun is hugely dangerous.  Assuming that it is still the case when Hoid writes the letter, I could easily see him nevertheless using it - just as he used Preservation's while Ruin was trapped.

The problem is that the magic systems don't seem to quite fit together.  While they both involve Connections between some living thing (parasite or microorganisms), I would prefer a more concrete explanation.

[StrikerEZ Mistborn]

I really like this theory, because it actually makes sense, plus I like to figure out which gods Bavadin is. I just think that it's highly unlikely that she managed to make two Perpendiculaities. I guess her different personas could all actually be Splinters of the original Bavadin, and she just managed to make sculpt them into being like her, but I'm not sure if I really believe that a Splinter could create a Perpendiculairty. Plus, Khriss said that there's not a Shard on First of the Sun.

[Kingsdaughter613 Prime]

Actually, first of the Sun would be land in the Cognitive. Taldain - which is supposed to be inaccessible- would be a sea!

[WeiryWriter Prime]

On 11/17/2017 at 5:23 AM, FirstSelector said:

I like this quite a lot.

Another thought - at least as we have seen it, the Perpendicularity on First of the Sun is hugely dangerous.  Assuming that it is still the case when Hoid writes the letter, I could easily see him nevertheless using it - just as he used Preservation's while Ruin was trapped.

The problem is that the magic systems don't seem to quite fit together.  While they both involve Connections between some living thing (parasite or microorganisms), I would prefer a more concrete explanation.

Thanks!

On the magic system thing, I don't know that there really has to be a formal link between the magic on the two worlds. We know that the shardworlds themselves play a role in how Investiture manifests, so two worlds Invested by the same Shard might have vastly different manifestations of Investiture. First of the Sun is also only mildly Invested so it would probably have more in common with other low-level Invested planets than with Taldain itself.

23 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I really like this theory, because it actually makes sense, plus I like to figure out which gods Bavadin is. I just think that it's highly unlikely that she managed to make two Perpendiculaities. I guess her different personas could all actually be Splinters of the original Bavadin, and she just managed to make sculpt them into being like her, but I'm not sure if I really believe that a Splinter could create a Perpendiculairty. Plus, Khriss said that there's not a Shard on First of the Sun.

Brandon has said that this perpendicularity is much smaller in scale than other perpendicularities, which could potentially be because it is the result of a Splinter rather than a full Shard. At this point I don't think we know enough about how Autonomy creates these aspects of herself to really say whether they even count as Splinters or are something entirely new...

[FirstSelector Ferring]

2 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

On the magic system thing, I don't know that there really has to be a formal link between the magic on the two worlds. We know that the shardworlds themselves play a role in how Investiture manifests, so two worlds Invested by the same Shard might have vastly different manifestations of Investiture. First of the Sun is also only mildly Invested so it would probably have more in common with other low-level Invested planets than with Taldain itself.

While I agree, I think that there should still be some commonality, given that it is the same Shard.  At the very least, they should both reflect the Shard's Intent somehow.  Taldain's magic has always confused me in that regard, but it kind of works for FotS; the trappers are a solitary bunch, and getting the Investiture requires a high degree of keep yourself alive.

5 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

Brandon has said that this perpendicularity is much smaller in scale than other perpendicularities, which could potentially be because it is the result of a Splinter rather than a full Shard. At this point I don't think we know enough about how Autonomy creates these aspects of herself to really say whether they even count as Splinters or are something entirely new...

That's... really interesting.  A related question is how much Investiture you need to go from temporary, unstable Perpendicularity (like Elsecalling) to stable.  So maybe Autonomy just has to set down a minimum amount, give it a bit of a personality, and move on.  I would imagine that we're beyond Splinter-level power... maybe someone should ask how long a Perpendicularity powered by a single Divine Breath would last.

[Jofwu Most Ancient]

Only had time to skim through this, but I had two thoughts:

If Mraize's chicken is an Aviar, we know the perpendicularity is open. Doesn't prove anything, but I think it's a passed test..

And we know there's not a Shard on First of the Sun. With the notion that Autonomy has pieces of herself scattered around on different planets, this is a fantastic explanation of how you can have a perpendicularity there without a [full] Shard.

Edit: Ooo, and if the Ones From Above are from Scadrial and Trell is Autonomy... That's interesting.

[emailanimal Artifabrian]

On 11/18/2017 at 1:24 PM, jofwu said:

Edit: Ooo, and if the Ones From Above are from Scadrial and Trell is Autonomy... That's interesting.

But it is spread over at least hundreds of years. Not much by Cosmere standards, mind you, but still.

 

Now, why would Hoid be writing to that specific aspect of Bavadin?

[theRoyalDingus House Lord]

Do we know for sure that the writer of all this to Hoid is Bavadin (we probably do and I missed it somewhere, or it this all speculation (and if it isn't could someone please help me find evidence of it not being so)?

I thought that the writer might be Cultivation for a bit, but...

[Yata Mistborn]

1 hour ago, Krypton Savant said:

Do we know for sure that the writer of all this to Hoid is Bavadin (we probably do and I missed it somewhere, or it this all speculation (and if it isn't could someone please help me find evidence of it not being so)?

I thought that the writer might be Cultivation for a bit, but...

Well the Shard seems to be surprised on Hoid be able to figure the planet where he/she is. Cultivation is on Roshar by public knowledge.

Also the Shard seems to be not interested in Rayse and ....well Cultivation is not so indifferent to him.

Lastly the "we" used by the Shard to talk about herself is hardly linkable on what we know of Cultivation (but this last thing is really debatable), Hoid seems to have sent the Letter to an individual among a group (or a persona among a moltitude of personalities) and another one actually recived it and answered...This point quite directly to Bavadin as Cultivation exibit not this trat and much more, she is the only possible reciver on Roshar

[theRoyalDingus House Lord]

Ok. That makes sense.

So the idea is that Bavadin (or at least this... persona? of her) is on First of the Sun, causing the perpendicularity? Oh. This all makes sense too.

[Yata Mistborn]

14 hours ago, Krypton Savant said:

Ok. That makes sense.

So the idea is that Bavadin (or at least this... persona? of her) is on First of the Sun, causing the perpendicularity? Oh. This all makes sense too.

Honestly I don't see the actual link between Bavadin and First of the Sun.

I also believe we have a WoB about the Eye as a natural manifestation

[Etruscan Skaa]

It's important to note that the events of Sixth of the Dusk take place the latest of any book in the Cosmere thus far. I like this theory though. I think Brandon's wording when he says that

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There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

fits this theory well, given that the group of islands worshiped by the Eelakin on First of the Sun are called "The Pantheon".  

[SilverTiger Cobalt Guard]

I think there's a theory floating around somewhere that Bavadin isn't human, she's some kind of hordleling-style hive mind being? Not sure if that helps, but there you go.

[Pagerunner Prime]

There's a new WoB floating around Discord that basically drives this home. Very prescient, Weiry. Nice work!

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Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)

First of the Sun's investiture is associated with a shard, the islands of patji are a shards manifestation, and first of the Sun is mentioned in the Letters

But I'm struggling with Obrodai being First of the Sun, because I think there are clearly three aspects in the Letter, each on separate planets:

• The Receiver, the person Hoid tried to contact. This Aspect is "unable to respond." They are located on a world that is "insignificant" and "well-hidden" among "many realms"; which fits the Drominad worlds. This aspect appears to have had a "past relationship" with Cephandrius.
• The Sender, who is writing the letter. They "stand in the sea," which is now an obvious reference to the Pantheon. There is an invitation to "these waters," which is a world Hoid is welcome to come to.
• The Young, who is on Obrodai. Hoid is not welcome on that planet, but he has been there.

I do not think that Obrodai can be These Waters; Hoid has an invitation to one planet, an admonition to another. Unless The Receiver is an aspect that shares a world with another aspect, then neither of those are the Insignificant World. (I can't outright discount the possibility, but it doesn't quite fit for me.)

So which, then, is First of the Sun? Could all be different three worlds be in the Drominad system? I don't think so; only First has a perpendicularity, so how could Hoid have visited Obrodai, have an open invitation to These Waters, and sent a letter to the Insignificant World? We've only seen him exit Shadesmar through perpendicularities.

Outside this letter, we know of one aspect, and theorize on yet another:

• The Sand Lord, on Taldain. I don't think they can be any of the three Aspects; Taldain is not Insignificant, really doesn't fit These Waters, and is not new at the time of Stormlight.
• Trell, who is moving against Harmony on Scadrial. Theorized, and after the whole debacle with the Unmade as the Listener gods, I'm very hesitant to push even a widely-accepted theory as truth. But I'll stand by this theory for now. But I don't think Trell could be any of the three aspects, either, for the same reasons as the Sand Lord.

So, I'm not sure I can say what is referring to First of the Sun in Letter 3.2. I think there must be several worlds mentioned, and I think you can make a good case for both the Insignificant World and These Waters. But I don't think it can be Obrodai.

[Rainier Sentient Awakened Object]

On 11/18/2017 at 9:55 AM, FirstSelector said:

So maybe Autonomy just has to set down a minimum amount, give it a bit of a personality, and move on.

I really like this idea. It seems appropriate for the intent of Autonomy to keep its own parts autonomous from one another. It feels like a Shard that would keep splintering itself into smaller and smaller bits, each autonomous. I'm not sure what overarching control or power there would be, or what this collective hive-mind-sounding author means, but I could see the new avatar being a fresh splinter of Autonomy that's held by a new person.

[Trellium Ardent]

On 11/28/2017 at 5:15 PM, Pagerunner said:

But I'm struggling with Obrodai being First of the Sun, because I think there are clearly three aspects in the Letter, each on separate planets:

• The Receiver, the person Hoid tried to contact. This Aspect is "unable to respond." They are located on a world that is "insignificant" and "well-hidden" among "many realms"; which fits the Drominad worlds. This aspect appears to have had a "past relationship" with Cephandrius.
• The Sender, who is writing the letter. They "stand in the sea," which is now an obvious reference to the Pantheon. There is an invitation to "these waters," which is a world Hoid is welcome to come to.
• The Young, who is on Obrodai. Hoid is not welcome on that planet, but he has been there.

... SO I'm not sure I can say what is referring to First of the Sun in Letter 3.2. I think there must be several worlds mentioned, and I think you can make a good case for both the Insignificant World and These Waters. But I don't think it can be Obrodai.

I have a very strong feeling that First of the Sun is "These Waters." And that "The Young" is "The Reciever" on Obrodai, an insignificant well hidden world recently seeded by Bavadin with a new autonomous aspect who was approached by Hoid. 

"You have spoken to one who cannot respond."

Hoid's communication went to an aspect that can't respond. Maybe because they are young and not yet sufficiently developed.

"We, instead, will take your communication to us—though we know not how you located us upon this world.We are indeed intrigued, for we thought it well hidden. Insignificant among our many realms... But we stand in the sea, pleased with our domains "

This could mean that Bavadin will take the communication received by the young aspect on the well hidden insignificant world and receive it for reply with this other aspect writing the letter. Not necessarily that Hoid also managed to find the writer in "the seas". 

"We also instruct that you should not return to Obrodai. We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there."

Even though Obrodai is being named here for the first time, it still is most likely the insignificant world. She is surprised he found the world and and doesn't want him returning.

"She is young yet, and—as a precaution—she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you. This is all we will say at this time. If you wish more, seek these waters in person and overcome the tests we have created."

This is the more mature aspect on First of the Sun telling Hoid to come speak to her, passing the many dangerous trials of the Pantheon / Patji and stay away from the young aspect he initially approached on Obrodai. 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Trellium

[Sol Invictus Lighteyes]

I think the writer of the 2nd letter in Oathbringer was Bavadin, also.

Consider:

Bavadin blockaded Taldain, yet she keeps meddling with other planets. Autonomy says, “I will make my own decisions, and I’ll make sure that never changes.” She’s meddling, I think, to seize as much power as she can to keep herself and Taldain safe.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Sol Invictus

[StormingTexan Dawnsinger]

Geez Brandon is on a real multiple personalities kick. Man this one is perplexing. How did Hoid get to Obrodai? 

[les Skaa]

Note that this appears to be confirmed in a post-Oathbringer WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606

[Fezzik Soulcaster]

@les welcome to the shard! Would you like some cookies?

[ElephantEarwax Dakhor Monk]

@les Coukd you repeat some words for me? 

"My life to yours, my Breath become yours."

Please?