[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[alercah]

Did Hoid namedrop Wisdom as a shard?

[Ryshadium]

20 minutes ago, alercah said:

Did Hoid namedrop Wisdom as a shard?

I have been going back and forth on this in my head. I can’t tell, but it would make sense as a Shard intent.

[Pattern]

9 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

The Intents of the Shards, as far as I am aware, are set. Now, if Dalinar is a powerful splinter of Honor (which I think is what he has become) then Dalinar can do quite a bit more in terms of "Intent". 

Normally, the Intent of a Shard is fixed. The problem I see with Honor is that he has been splintered for about two millennia and his spren have gained self-awareness. While Honor was alive, all his Splinters (Spren) were still Honor. After his death, those splinters became independent. The Stormfather is a merging of the old Stormspren with the largest chunk of Honor's Investiture. Some spren on Roshar are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. It all is quite blurred.

Every new Vessel can filter the Intent of a Shard differently from others. So Dalinar could have ascended to Honor, interpreting it quite differently from Tanavast and call himself Unity, while being Honor in truth. Upon rereading the passage, I came to doubt that Dalinar ascended in the HoA sense at all. Dalinar says a lot of words which each could be interpreted as another Bondsmith oath:

- I will take responsibility for what I have done.
- If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.
- You cannot have my pain!
- I am Unity.

The surprised Stormfather answers with "These words ... are accepted. How? What have you done?"

Dalinar has sworn his third oath as Bondsmith, perhaps he stumbled over more than one oath. It might be that what we see him doing is just what a Bondsmith having bonded a splinter of Honor (together with the Stormfather) is able to do, in combination with the (now almost usual) burst of power after swearing a new oath: Connect the realms for a certain time and therefore summoning Honor's Perpendicularity. Afterwards, Dalinar is "normal" again, as far as "normal" can be used with Dalinar. When Vin or Sazed ascended, even Rashek, the effects were much larger. What Odium sees as Honor then would be the splinter of Honor in the Stormfather, manifested temporarily in Dalinar while he surgebinds.

And with this power of surgebinding one comes to understand how it could be possible that the old surgebinders accidentally destroyed their world (with dawnshards being the weapons used).

[Leyrann]

4 hours ago, CodeMnke said:

And being absolutely terrified we had lost Dalinar

This sums up the book for me, to be honest. That was an extremely scary moment, and it made what came after only more glorious. (and the hundreds of gloryspren didn't hurt either for that)

[Ramza1890]

So the third Bondsmith spren, the one that is slumbering, Urithiru?

Also, just checked Brandon's website and just FYI there is still no progress bar for book 4... 

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, Ramza1890 said:

So the third Bondsmith spren, the one that is slumbering, Urithiru?

Also, just checked Brandon's website and just FYI there is still no progress bar for book 4... 

NOOOOOO BRANDON! WHY ARE YOU MAKING US WAIIIIIIT?

[Sparks]

1) We need more Szeth and Lift. They can have a whole ongoing buddy series in small print, like Edgedancer, as far as I'm concerned.

2) Nightblood is the best.  For any Destiny 2 players out there, do you hear Nightblood in Failsafe's voice? Because I do.

3) Poor Elhokar.  Just when he starts to understand and change into a better man.....

4) A while back, I advanced the theory that Kaladin was going to be chosen as Odium's champion, because I thought his severe depression was actually an ongoing corruption from one of the Unmade.   Oops, wrong Radiant!

5) I kinda feel like Warbreaker is getting its sequel worked into the Stormlight Archives already!

6) Mayalaran. That's going to be an awesome scene where she is revived.  And I'm interested if Adolin/Maya can form a different kind of partnership - something new between men and spren - if Adolin's soul truly isn't broken. 

7) I did not see Venli's redemption arc coming. At all!

8) Random speculation: what would happen if you Splintered Odium and then captured the pieces in perfect gemhearts?  What are the Ghostbloods' goals? What are Vasher/Nightblood doing on Roshar in the first place?    Will the plan be to create a new and better Oathpact? 

[Ryshadium]

I made a separate post, but it was suggested to discuss here. So... the interludes in this book flummoxed me and I would be curious what others thought of them. I had a hard time connecting most of them to anything relevant overall, but I’m certain I’m missing something. 

[Leyrann]

7 minutes ago, Ryshadium said:

I made a separate post, but it was suggested to discuss here. So... the interludes in this book flummoxed me and I would be curious what others thought of them. I had a hard time connecting most of them to anything relevant overall, but I’m certain I’m missing something. 

I don't think that's what @Argent meant, actually. Rather that he preferred if you'd pick some interludes to make a thread about, instead of heaping them all together.

[Ryshadium]

8 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I don't think that's what @Argent meant, actually. Rather that he preferred if you'd pick some interludes to make a thread about, instead of heaping them all together.

I can see that, but I’m kind of having trouble with all of them, so I’m not sure how to frame that without clogging the board. 

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, Ryshadium said:

I can see that, but I’m kind of having trouble with all of them, so I’m not sure how to frame that without clogging the board. 

One about each PoV character, I'd say.

[Nicrosil]

HOH boy do I have some thoughts here at two in the morning!

Mr. T why are you like this.

So by my count we have three Unmade we know almost nothing about. Ba-Ado-Mishram is the commander of the voidbringers and the Unmade, no idea what she's up to. Oh, except during the Recreance she may have been leading the last Voidbringers and pushing towards Rall Elorim? Chemoarish has a lot of lore, and is definitely not the Nightwatcher, probably. Then the ninth Unmade is weird and might be Dia-Gonarthis the Black Fisher who destroyed Aimia? Excuse me?

TALN. MY MAN. 

I was on the fence of Adolin reviving his blade or just being an awesome, nonmagical dude, but after seeing him interact with Maya, I am firmly in the revival camp. 

My reaction to all the Shallan chapters can be summed up as: oh no baby what is you doing?

The Amaram "power up" felt weird. I always thought of Amaram as the "human" evil, to contrast with the supernatural stuff. 

Moash you're literally the worst. 

The Stormfather gets my vote for most frustrating character purely from a lore hunting perspective.

WHAT IN DAMNATION IS THE SIBLING.

Anyone notice the neat inversion of Dalinar and Kaladin? Kal mocks Amaram, telling him the war did not make him stronger, while Dalinar thanks the Thrill for making him strong enough. 

What was the point of Honor's Drop originally? It was entrusted to the... Elsecallers? But for what purpose?

RENARIN. MY MAN. 

The secret behind the Recreance seemed underwhelming, since we'd speculated since the beginning that the parshendi/listeners/singers were the original inhabitants of Roshar. Odium being humanity's first god is terrifying though. What's really weird though is that surgebinding apparently worked on an entirely different planet without Honor or Cultivation... I don't think we're getting the whole picture here.

I'm not the only one thinking Timbre is Eshonai, right? I mean, the void spren said that the Fused were reincarnated listener heroes, and immediately afterward a weird spren shows up next to Eshonai's corpse? If that theory's true though, Venli is really weird. She's a listener who's bonded a void spren, but that void spren is being suppressed by her sister's soul spren, and she's also forming a Nahel bond with her sister's soul spren. Alrighty.

Seriously though, Renarin being a blind spot to Odium is very interesting. It may be similar to atium, where two future-sights cancel each other out?

I think Dalinar did Ascend, but whatever he is now is much less powerful than Honor or an actual Shard, but still has an Intent: Unity. Wasn't there a popular theory floating around that Splinters have their own Intents?

The Shadesmar sounds awesome. Also, Azure is awesome. 

I really like that Odium's aesthetic.

I feel like this book is setting up for the second half. Like others have pointed out, a lot of existing plot threads were answered or at least addressed, but there's a lot that was brought up for books 4 and 5. 

Seriously Moash you're the worst. 

[lastofus]

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

I was on the fence of Adolin reviving his blade or just being an awesome, nonmagical dude, but after seeing him interact with Maya, I am firmly in the revival camp. 

Welcome to the club xD.

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

The Amaram "power up" felt weird. I always thought of Amaram as the "human" evil, to contrast with the supernatural stuff. 

Yeah it felt strange. Kaladin was probably lucky that he was mid-change or something. I have no idea what to make of it. It's, at least for me, the lowest point in the book.

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

The secret behind the Recreance seemed underwhelming, since we'd speculated since the beginning that the parshendi/listeners/singers were the original inhabitants of Roshar. Odium being humanity's first god is terrifying though. What's really weird though is that surgebinding apparently worked on an entirely different planet without Honor or Cultivation... I don't think we're getting the whole picture here.

The whole Vorin Theology is upside down. There's no Tranquiline Halls, Dawnsingers were Singers/Listeners, Humanity are the voidbringers, The calling to be warrior is about invading not defending. They didn't win Aharietiam, in fact they were the cause of the first desolations. They just took the name for themselves. The only viewpoint form a religious person we see is Shallan. She had some conversation with the heretic (Jasnah) and to be honest after that she's kinda heretic herself. So we have no idea what the majority of Vorin culture thinks about that.

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

I'm not the only one thinking Timbre is Eshonai, right? I mean, the void spren said that the Fused were reincarnated listener heroes, and immediately afterward a weird spren shows up next to Eshonai's corpse? If that theory's true though, Venli is really weird. She's a listener who's bonded a void spren, but that void spren is being suppressed by her sister's soul spren, and she's also forming a Nahel bond with her sister's soul spren. Alrighty.

That spren was following Eshonai before, and then started following Venli. From their conversations Timbre told Venli about his grandfather dying in Recreance. He doesn't trust them. But from what Venli said in answer, Eshonai trusted them. 

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

Seriously though, Renarin being a blind spot to Odium is very interesting. It may be similar to atium, where two future-sights cancel each other out?

That's the best, and for some reason only Taravangian knows about it. Can he redeem himself or not.. . The ones that know Glys is corrupted won't trust Renarin and think he's the enemy's agent or something like that. 

2 hours ago, Nicrosil said:

I think Dalinar did Ascend, but whatever he is now is much less powerful than Honor or an actual Shard, but still has an Intent: Unity. Wasn't there a popular theory floating around that Splinters have their own Intents?

I think we're going to have multiple powerful individuals instead of one powerful entity like Sazed. It'll make things more fun.

 

My thoughts.. the Everstorm is different than the last desolation, Honor is dead, Oathpact damaged, the Listeners can break. Humanity can be forcefully bond to unmade or His spren. We don't know how did that happen, but in the end, everything is changing. 

I really love to see Rlain become a windrunner. I hope one of the listeners that Kaladin talked to kill Moash. I hope that the dustbringer defects from the diagram. 

In Dalinar's dreams, Sadeas was a sick dude. He was definitely the other Odium's champion. Thank the Almighty that Adolin killed him. By the way, Ialai in Odium's camp? She has no place to go now, and she's a dangerous woman.

Someone is Ghostbloods wanted Amaram's blood, they tried to kill him at the end of WoR, what will happen to that person? From the prologue, Gavilar had a meeting with Sons of Honor (because Meridas Amaram was there).

Quote

surrounded by five others: two officers, two women in long dresses, and one old man in robes.

I guess we can determine that the old man was Restares. So there are at least 4 elite members left from Sons of Honor. What would they do?

[Aminar]

4 hours ago, Sparks said:

1) We need more Szeth and Lift. They can have a whole ongoing buddy series in small print, like Edgedancer, as far as I'm concerned.

2) Nightblood is the best.  For any Destiny 2 players out there, do you hear Nightblood in Failsafe's voice? Because I do.

3) Poor Elhokar.  Just when he starts to understand and change into a better man.....

4) A while back, I advanced the theory that Kaladin was going to be chosen as Odium's champion, because I thought his severe depression was actually an ongoing corruption from one of the Unmade.   Oops, wrong Radiant!

5) I kinda feel like Warbreaker is getting its sequel worked into the Stormlight Archives already!

6) Mayalaran. That's going to be an awesome scene where she is revived.  And I'm interested if Adolin/Maya can form a different kind of partnership - something new between men and spren - if Adolin's soul truly isn't broken. 

7) I did not see Venli's redemption arc coming. At all!

8) Random speculation: what would happen if you Splintered Odium and then captured the pieces in perfect gemhearts?  What are the Ghostbloods' goals? What are Vasher/Nightblood doing on Roshar in the first place?    Will the plan be to create a new and better Oathpact? 

I do not hear failsafe. Nightblood is male. 

Mayalaran was my favorite new character. Just for... All she represents.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Aminar

[WhiteLeeopard]

Rambling, not having read anything in shard, and kind of incoherent after 2 days in la la world.

• Dang, now its over.  
• Can I mention the work of art that was Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin. Together they were just perfect, and complimented each other beautifully, one picking up the slack when another fell down. 
• Adolin is a stunning character. 
• I wish there had been more Nightblood
• VIVENNA. I was such an IDIOT I did not notice who she was until the dinner chat she had with Kaladin when they put the cards on the table. Ungh!
• Also, congratulations to Taravangian! After much, much work he finally managed to perform his goal of the Diagram superceding the Sons of Honor as the dumbest smart Secret Society in Roshar. Totally going to make a meme of this one.
• I felt quite bloodthirstily satisfied with the path Moash took. He irritated me on book 1. He annoyed me in book 2. And now this in book 3. There is a fierce satisfaction in knowing you had correctly judged a bad person even while everyone around them adored him.
• For a moment, Unity, I almost thought Dalinar had reassembled Honor ^^.

 

• Also, yes Dalinar was a monster, and yes Evi was a moron. Sneaking into a rival city when her husband was clearly firmly on the kill and not listen point, sigh.
• Elhokar made an amazing character recovery in OB. Then he died . And he was bonding a cryptic!
• AND JEZRIEN IS DEAD
• All Hail Queen Jasnah
• The Skybreakers are an interesting order. Although Nale is incomprehensible. "I have fought Odium actively for several thousand years. I have fought Odium more passively for 4000 years. So I'm now going to decide to side with him because I've decided his cronies deserve this land for no clear reason. Since its not as If I haven't known they were here before humans for the past 6000 years."
• The should use the spren more to spy, hope they investigate T in detail now. Who just hurried to spill something when he saw Szeth about to do it.
• CAN'T BELIEVE WE DIDNT SEE A CONVERSATION BETWEEN DALINAR AND SZETH. "You killed my brother" "Yes" "You tried to kill me. Actually were about 10 seconds away from it" "Yes" "Now you wan't to serve me ultimately" "Yes" "I need some valium" "Where should I get it?"
• Ash will be amazing to read

 

• Renarin was indeed bonded to a voidspren as suspected. Although not sure it counts as voidspren, is corrupted void?
• I called Dalinar was meant to be Odium's champion fairly early on
• Dalinar was touched by Cultivation herself, hmmm, poor Dalinar, with all 3 gods fighting over who gets more of him. 
• Dalinar's powers were...wow. 
• So many radiants and bridge 4 swearing ideals. 
• Shallan and Adolin wedding. Maxal should be happy. Although I was kind of really shipping Kadolin halfway through. Alas
• Lift was awesome. I can see Edgedancers as the glue of all the orders.

 

• When the coalition fell appart it was amazing. "I'm concerned about what our ancestors did 7000 years ago, so I'm not going to fight as we descend from murderers." "I'm concerned the Alethi seek to conquer us in the next few years, so we will leave the coalition" Dudes...not to be the rain in your parade but the chances of you having a kingdom in a few years are small if you join together, and nil if you don't. So point is...? And if you are going to stop fighting because there are dishonorable people in your family tree then just don't get out of bed in the first place. Life before Death. The living over the dead. The present over the past. And harsh as it sounds, the descendants that own the world over the ancestors that once walked it.

If anyone actually read all this messy chaos I wrote props to you. Going to have a nap then fully delve into 17th shard.

[Mulk]

I've seen the following thought line several times - how did humans use surgebinding to destroy the world they were on before when they weren't following Honor and Cultivation?

I know they used the word surgebinding in the book, but I think we need to stop confusing that for what they used.  Surgebinding is the term they know.  We've not seen them use the term voidbinding.  They look at Voidbringers/Fused and see that they use the same sorts of powers, so they use the same word for it.  From an in-book and in-character perspective this is fine.  From outside the book, what the humans used to destroy their world is what we would call voidbinding as it is drawn from Odium's power. Again, they don't use the term voidbinding, but we have to differentiate to avoid this sort of thing.

Or, put another way, you don't need to be confused about how they destroyed a planet with surgebinding when they were following Odium instead of Honor/Cultivation. Odium, in the Roshar system anyway, seems to be able to grant the same sorts of powers the other two do, probably (at least this is my theory) because this planet and system, with their spren, predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. Like, the rules for how everything works in the system are already set, by a being/force greater than any of the three Shards there.  If Odium really was the humans' God when they came to Roshar as Syl says in the book, the humans were using those voidbinding powers that the KR recognize as being like their own and that is how they destroyed everything.

[Sparks]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

I do not hear failsafe. Nightblood is male. 

Mayalaran was my favorite new character. Just for... All she represents.

Aww...it's been so long since I read Warbreaker.  Well, I can't unhear in my headcanon!  Maybe I'll read it in a slightly deeper male version of Failsafe.

I bet Maya, when she revives, is going to be snarky as all get out.  Maya and Shallan are going to have some real girl bonding time.

[Necessary Eagle]

I thought Vivenna was going to have a cameo. Not a whole storming major story arc. 

When exactly did Odium have his chat with Amaram? Did I miss some hint or foreshadowing? His transition from Vorin fanatic to Odium's lackey felt really abrupt to me. 

[Leyrann]

Just now, Necessary Eagle said:

I thought Vivenna was going to have a cameo. Not a whole storming major story arc. 

My thoughts exactly LOL.

I'm not complaining though. Hope she returns for later books.

[MoS03]

We see that the Spren cross over in a leap of faith, with no guarantee of finding someone to Bond with. Once they've jumped, they're there, and the only way forward is a Bond. So, when Eshonai died, that Spren needed to go somewhere. Elhokar's Pattern needed to go somewhere.

We see Hoid's pov when he gets that Spren from the castle. He's thinking of his disguises as his art. Every single time we've seen him, he's blending lies and truths. Even the disguise he used to get to the castle had an element of truth, with the missing tooth. He transforms people around him into someone else, by giving them a precise lie, or a story, with true emotions, and truths of morality questioned by the listeners. Him getting a Cryptic makes sense.

What does Venli embody, that drew this Spren from under Eshonai's armor? That could help us to understand which Order this Spren is from.

Unrelated, sorta. When showing off the Half-Shard shield, does Taravangian claim that the Spren that powers it is a Radiant-Spren?

[Mulk]

53 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

When exactly did Odium have his chat with Amaram? Did I miss some hint or foreshadowing? His transition from Vorin fanatic to Odium's lackey felt really abrupt to me. 

I've been pondering this. I think Odium was actually the mover behind the whole Sons of Honor thing.  The ones we know of have all turned out to be major bad guys, at least with respect to the story being told.  They probably all knew Honor was dead, they just held back that knowledge.

As for foreshadowing...I don't think there was much, beyond hints and outright hornblowing that Amaram isn't what he seems - if you take that and put it along side the fact that Gavilar and the rest of the group seemed to want to kick off another Desolation...well, he's no goody goody.  We never got a (substantive) POV from him. But you know what? I don't really care.  In any war, some people turn out to be traitors and at least a few of them are mostly going to be unpredictable - like there won't be anything in their experience that you could say was predictive.  So, it should be shocking when some things like this turn out differently than you expect, that some turn evil without warning or even that some evil turn good. 

11 minutes ago, MoS03 said:

We see that the Spren cross over in a leap of faith, with no guarantee of finding someone to Bond with. Once they've jumped, they're there, and the only way forward is a Bond. So, when Eshonai died, that Spren needed to go somewhere. Elhokar's Pattern needed to go somewhere.

What does Venli embody, that drew this Spren from under Eshonai's armor? That could help us to understand which Order this Spren is from.

Really like your take on this - it explains why there is a patternhead for Hoid to pick up, why there is this tiny glowing ball of light hanging around.  They have nowhere else to go.

As to what Venli embodies...I think the forum consensus was that Eshonai was on path to be a Willshaper.  I don't know exactly what that means so I can't speak to if that's what this little ball is, but...I look at Venli and I see someone who made a very hard choice, in part because she felt hopeless and believed this was the only way forward.  But I also see in her the regret that this must be so, the longing that it need not happen this way, and a sense of self strong enough that she couldn't bend enough to allow herself to become Fused.  Her redemption arc was unexpected, but appreciated. It's not complete, mind you - but there is hope that it might be, one day.

11 minutes ago, MoS03 said:

Unrelated, sorta. When showing off the Half-Shard shield, does Taravangian claim that the Spren that powers it is a Radiant-Spren?

I'm pretty sure that's what he says to Dalinar. I'm at work and can't check the reference but I reread that section last night, pretty sure that's what he says.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Mulk

[redgarlic68]

Already answered in other thread. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by redgarlic68

[Podman]

Holy crap. I just finished last night (well, morning, sue me), and just... wow.

[Siaun Sanche]

I was really satisfied with Oathbringer.

- I was bummed to see Eshonai dead (I had just reread WoR with the OB prologue in mind and she really came alive for me as a character), and I too was just starting to like Elhokar when he got killed. (This has an interesting ripple effect on the final chapters of WoR; Kaladin went through a big character realization to stop Moash from killing Elhokar, and then like a month later he watches Moash killed Elhokar.)
- I really liked the Bridge Four POVs. (BTW, did we have an indication that Teft was an addict before book 3?)
- I wasn't sure about the Venli redemption arc at first but Sanderson brought me on board, and I'm ready for the Listener rebellion arc that I assume is coming in book 4. 
- There has to be major fallout from the fact that Gavilar's murderer has now sworn allegiance to Dalinar. There's no way that the Alethi highprinces are all going to be okay with this.
- Maybe this is just me, but I thought the significance of the Recreance reveal wasn't that the humans were invaders but that the Surges that the KR use already destroyed one world and thus posed a threat to Roshar too. Did I misread that?
- I agree that Adolin killing Sadeas didn't have the significance that I expected it to have. I think that's a loss for Adolin's character (unless Ialai's going to make a big deal of it in book 4). But I always imagined that it would be the catalyst for Dalinar's moral authority being fundamentally called into question, and instead that ended up happening in another fashion, so I don't miss it too much.
- As for the death of Helaran, I assume that there is much more to come on that. Shallan's not done with the Ghostbloods by a long shot, and her brothers arriving in Urithiru means that she can't ignore family issues either.

[Patrick Star]

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

• Dalinar was touched by Cultivation herself, hmmm, poor Dalinar, with all 3 gods fighting over who gets more of him. 

Dalinar is literally my Skyrim character.  I think I've sold my soul to literally everyone at this point.