[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[TequilaJack Grand]

44 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Even if the Spren agree to it willingly to save the world in the past that doesn't mean they would be ok with repeating this in the present. Especially with their diminished numbers currently. Still does not make sense to me with the current explanation is why they had to kill their spren. We know there are ways to release them as long as the KR has not spoken their final ideal and presumable at least a decent portion would not be at this level yet. 

If you break even after first oath, they die. Syl nearly died and that's after 1 or 2 Oaths. What's the release you refer to here? 

[Starla King's Wit]

29 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

Stormfather who was standing in for Honor distrusts humans. He was creating honorsprens after Honor and so his attitude may have filtered in. 

Sprens are nearly a different species. They are pieces of pure power and have pre existed humanity at least at a planetary level. You can't expect them to have same faith in humanity as you and me. For them honor is being true to your Oaths. What you are saying is a justification to oath breaking, and once you go down that route it's a slippery slope. They are spirits and stay true to Oaths irrespective of external influences imo.

But what is considering breaking the oaths? If a radiant has sworn an oath to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and he discovers that his surgebinding abilities, and those of his fellow radiants, are in danger of destroying the planet, isn't it his duty to stop it however he can? If breaking the nahel bond protects thousands or millions of people, is that what he needs to do?

I still feel like there should be another way beside breaking the bond. @StormingTexan mentions releasing the bond. I think this is possible. See this WOB (link):

Quote

fangorn: So, if a bonded human were to decide for whatever reason that he/she wanted to retire from being a Radiant, is it possible to do that or is the Nahel bond a lifetime gig?

For example, say Kaladin felt he could no longer uphold the requirements of being bonded to Syl, or eventually he just got old or worn out.

Brandon Sanderson: Retiring from the bond is possible under mechanics I haven't talked about yet in the series.

So why didn't they do this rather than killing the spren? 

[TequilaJack Grand]

18 minutes ago, Starla said:

But what is considering breaking the oaths? If a radiant has sworn an oath to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and he discovers that his surgebinding abilities, and those of his fellow radiants, are in danger of destroying the planet, isn't it his duty to stop it however he can? If breaking the nahel bond protects thousands or millions of people, is that what he needs to do?

I still feel like there should be another way beside breaking the bond. @StormingTexan mentions releasing the bond. I think this is possible. See this WOB (link):

So why didn't they do this rather than killing the spren? 

There is a paradox here. By right humans are the voidbringers and we stole Parshmen planet. So from a Radiant pov it's the Parshmen who are in the right. They are caught in a dilemma to choose between humans vs Parshmen.

It's not really easy to just choose millions of humans as you say and kill Parshmen who are just trying to get back their home planet. More of a moral and philosophical debate than you say...and there seems no resolution. So that's why the Radiants foresook their Oaths. So you kill Parshmen who in this case cannot protect themselves from humans? 

 

And most importantly it was Gavilar and Ghost Bloods (humans ) who was trying to bring back Desolation (and Radiants) while Parshmen were trying to keep their god ( Odium) dead. 

I don't believe their oaths are restricted only to humans and ignores everything else. Doesn't make sense in bigger picture.

As to setting aside being a Radiant, too many explanations possible. Old age, done enough etc. We can only speculate now. Have no idea on this. RAFO, I believe.

Edited November 30, 2017 by TequilaJack

[StormingTexan Dawnsinger]

58 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

I still feel like there should be another way beside breaking the bond. @StormingTexan mentions releasing the bond. I think this is possible. See this WOB (link):

It’s also in OB the Captan of the Homorspren ship tells Kaladin there are ways to severe the bond without killing the spren assuming the final ideal has not been spoken or along those lines.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

9 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

It’s also in OB the Captan of the Homorspren ship tells Kaladin there are ways to severe the bond without killing the spren assuming the final ideal has not been spoken or along those lines.

Notum shook his head, then looked away, off into the distance. “I cannot answer. You should not have bonded Sylphrena, either way. She is too precious to the Stormfather.”
“Regardless,” Kaladin said, “you’re about half a year too late. So you might as well accept it.”
“Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.”

Oathbringer Chapter 108 "Honor’s Path"

[tally Spren]

right uh my first post so bear with please 

I finished the book last night damnation THAT ENDING i really need to reread it soon the difference in pace from the shadesmar chapters to the final few... i have loads of questions but  1 pressing one can someone please explain what the dalinars ascension means or is.. so he can now recharge radiants and spheres at will? i really thought he would become the new vessel for honor for a second there i cant remember his new ideal but what new powers does he have now??. Also dalinars refusal YES LAD.

[Blacksmithki High Prelan]

15 hours ago, MistLord said:

 

The Stormfather said that in one point of the conflict, Honour lapsed into only caring about the wording of oaths, but that he wasn't usually so positivist as to not look at the meaning behind them before that. Kaladin talks to Syl about the subjectivity of Ideals, depending on the Radiant's interpretation of their meaning. So Honour's power definitively takes purpose into mind somewhat at least.

That epigraph is interesting though, you have a point of Odium and Honour maybe being better opposites than I thought. I never considered this because Odium is a traveller, and Honour and Odium were never meant to be paired up in the first place (also, didn't Brandon say no two shards better complemented each other than Preservation and Ruin?).

 

Either way, super hyped to see where this conflict takes us 

To number one, I was referring to a pure intent of Honor the shard, instead of Honor + Tanavast, and from that very quote it would appear that the shard's pure intent is very much as how I referred to it, but yes, given the context of a good vessel, most shards are pretty good.

2: I always saw Autonomy as the opposite of Honor, considering Honor is more or less taking away people's autonomy with oaths, the way I picture a pure shard intent Autonomy world, it would be almost the same as preservation as it would not be possible to interact with anything in any way because that forces it to do something, taking away it's autonomy. There's not like a second definition or really similar word and I'm misunderstanding autonomy is there?

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

1 hour ago, tally said:

right uh my first post so bear with please 

I finished the book last night damnation THAT ENDING i really need to reread it soon the difference in pace from the shadesmar chapters to the final few... i have loads of questions but  1 pressing one can someone please explain what the dalinars ascension means or is.. so he can now recharge radiants and spheres at will? i really thought he would become the new vessel for honor for a second there i cant remember his new ideal but what new powers does he have now??. Also dalinars refusal YES LAD.

from mistborn "ascending" can happen if one person hold an huge mount of investiture (not needed the full shard power, like the lord ruler in the well of the ascension).

for the gemstone recharge, when in the same place an huge amount of investiture is gathered it start to bend the realm borders if you pile enough it can pierce the three realms, they usualy are called 'perpendicularity' and can be used to traver from/to the physical realm to/from shadesmar and

“Have I ever asked how you renew these?” Dalinar held up the sphere, inspecting the ruby at the center. He’d seen these loose, and had always been surprised by how small they actually were. The glass made them look far larger.
Honor’s power, during a storm, is concentrated in one place, the Stormfather said. It pierces all three realms and brings Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual together momentarily in one. The gemstones, exposed to the wonder of the Spiritual Realm, are lit by the infinite power there.

Oathbringer Chapter 64. "Binder of Gods"

[Suteneko Skaa]

On 11/28/2017 at 6:54 PM, Andvari said:

Yeah I guess I should re-phrase, I thought it made sense for the Radiants to find out and abandon their oaths, but in OB I didn't think it made sense for the human kingdoms to be SO shaken by this and just throw in the towel. It would have really thrown people, but probably not caused them to just give up and go home. Most people would have been like "I definitely don't have the moral high ground now, but what am I supposed to do, just lie down and die?"

It wasn't the fact that humans were the invaders that broke up the kingdom alliance, it was the combination of things that were revealed at the same time.  It was finding out that Dalinar had actually met Odium and then didn't tell anyone, or finding out that Elhokar had sworn to Dalinar as a High king, etc.  Each kingdom reacted badly to a different revelation, that is why The old crazy king revealed so many.  The invader tidbit was more to break the Radiants than anyone else, specifically people like Dalinar and Bridge Four who are trying to be honorable and just.  However, Kaladin realized the same thing you pointed out, that they can't just lay down and die either.  He didn't like it, but he did realize it.  

I also just remembered that Kaladin, Shallan, or Szeth are going to destroy them (from the back of Way of Kings).  And now that Szeth is on the their side, no matter who it is, it is going to be awful. 

[Suteneko Skaa]

16 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

It’s also in OB the Captan of the Homorspren ship tells Kaladin there are ways to severe the bond without killing the spren assuming the final ideal has not been spoken or along those lines.

 

Yeah it doesn't kill the spren, but Kaladin would definitely be dead!  So it is like what some people are saying about when the Radiants gave up, it was going to be either the Spren or the humans dying.  And how many of those Radiants had spoken the final ideal??  So killing themselves would have killed the spren regardless at that point.

[StormingTexan Dawnsinger]

5 minutes ago, Suteneko said:

Yeah it doesn't kill the spren, but Kaladin would definitely be dead!  So it is like what some people are saying about when the Radiants gave up, it was going to be either the Spren or the humans dying.  And how many of those Radiants had spoken the final ideal??  So killing themselves would have killed the spren regardless at that point.

Yeah but he says "other ways" which is plural so killing the KR is not the only way at least that is how I read it. Plus the WoB eludes to this as well. No idea what that is and yeah some of the KR would have sworn the 5th Ideal but not all. Which I wonder how many "full" KR are around. I am sure it is different for orders but Nale made it sound like not many Skybreakers were at the 5th level (maybe just him)? I dunno maybe this was the only way. Seems harsh like killing your dog. 

 

[Fulminato Cobalt Guard]

44 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Yeah but he says "other ways" which is plural so killing the KR is not the only way at least that is how I read it. Plus the WoB eludes to this as well. No idea what that is and yeah some of the KR would have sworn the 5th Ideal but not all. Which I wonder how many "full" KR are around. I am sure it is different for orders but Nale made it sound like not many Skybreakers were at the 5th level (maybe just him)? I dunno maybe this was the only way. Seems harsh like killing your dog. 

 

all the knight in the dalinar vision (feverstone keep, the keep is named in the urithiru gemstone archive) wear their armor, for windrunner (blue plate) mean for sure they swore the fourth oath, we don't know the stonewarden progression, but don't think is much different (so third/fourth oath)

Edited November 30, 2017 by Fulminato

[A Dopey Spren Babsk]

The entire book had me on the edge of my seat. As someone previously mentioned, that chapter 'Unity' in which Dalinar finally confronts and overcomes his past, gave me goosebumps.

I never felt much for Elhokar, but when he started speaking the words I was grinning, almost cheering on the train. Quickly followed by a gasp, my jaw dropping and looking about confused when Moash executes him.

Sanderson's talent at yanking the reader's emotions about is both unnerving and extraordinary. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by A Dopey Spren

[Subvisual Haze Steel Inquisitor]

19 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

If you break even after first oath, they die. Syl nearly died and that's after 1 or 2 Oaths. What's the release you refer to here? 

I think Syl was a special case though.  I think the natural process would have been: Kaladin swears conflicting oaths and their bond as a result gradually weakens, Syl returns to her "stupid" windspren state, Kaladin loses his powers.  

I think the critical moment that "killed" Syl was when Kaladin was falling to his doom on the Shattered Plains.  Their bond was weakened, but Syl "cheated" and let Kaladin gasp in one last breath of Stormlight.  Their bond had been weakened to the point where to do this, Syl took a metaphorical bullet for Kal

[EC11 Noble]

Was anyone else a little dissatisfied with the Kholinar arc? I found that was my least favorite part of the books. However, the Shadesmar, Thaylen arc from the end tied up everything nicely.

Odium is an excellent villain.

[TequilaJack Grand]

In the scene where Dalinar meets Odium first time, Odium asks Dalinar if he just made an offer to release him from his bonds. Dalinar answers No.

Maybe the bondsmith can release bonds too in certain circumstances.

 

[StormingTexan Dawnsinger]

30 minutes ago, EC11 said:

Was anyone else a little dissatisfied with the Kholinar arc? I found that was my least favorite part of the books. However, the Shadesmar, Thaylen arc from the end tied up everything nicely.

Odium is an excellent villain.

I wouldn’t say disappointed but that was the slowest part to me with it speeding up at the end. I think a lot of people felt the Shadesmar part was the slowest but I didn’t compared to most of the Kholinar scenes.

[Windseeker Spearman]

Was anyone else a little dissatisfied with the Kholinar arc? I found that was my least favorite part of the books. However, the Shadesmar, Thaylen arc from the end tied up everything nicely.

Odium is an excellent villain.

I also disliked the Kholinar arc and believe it to be wasted potential. It's one of the parts that feels the most awkward coming from Brandon Sanderson because he's usually the type who really takes his time whenever a major conflict occurs, whereas here he wrapped up a major battle in about a page.

My biggest qualms with the Kholinar arc is the time it took to set it up vs the reward. Objectively speaking, I totally appreciate plot twists, and I am inwardly happy that even the best of plans can be thwarted by unknown variables, which the Voidspren and the Unmade are. However, the way the arc ended bothers me the most, not how it ended. It painted the protagonists as a bunch of emotional, immature brats who can't get anything right due to crippling doubts. Sure, Shallan and Kaladin aren't soldiers in the real sense of the word(Unlike Adolin who shrugged off Elhokar's death because he knew that freezing up wasn't an option), but I want to see these two show their capabilities. I want them to make use of their past experience and show us, the audience, that they have evolved. What good does it do me that Kaladin constantly finds reasons to brood over? It just proves that the journey is barely relevant in his case, as he's still the naive darkeyes from chapter 1 of "Way of Kings" where he wants to save everybody he cares about. The biggest offender here is that, just before the big skirmish, he tells Elhokar, "Save the one you can," an advice that he blatantly ignores. Being conflicted about his views clashing with the Ideals he swears is good, but it shouldn't come at the cost of turning him into a hypocrite.

Shallan is equally guilty. I won't really go into detail about her since her coping mechanism is even weirder than Kaladin's depression, but I can honestly say that this pattern starts to get repetitive. We are 3 books in now, and it's a tad irritating for the protagonists to still carry the demons they supposedly banished in books 1 and 2. I don't want Shallan and Kaladin to miraculously solve all of their problems, but to at least mature and grow a freaking spine! With great power come great responsibilities indeed, yet these two seem perfectly comfortable remaining in their cocoon while whining about how unfair life is to them.

[tally Spren]

52 minutes ago, Windseeker said:

I also disliked the Kholinar arc and believe it to be wasted potential. It's one of the parts that feels the most awkward coming from Brandon Sanderson because he's usually the type who really takes his time whenever a major conflict occurs, whereas here he wrapped up a major battle in about a page.

My biggest qualms with the Kholinar arc is the time it took to set it up vs the reward. Objectively speaking, I totally appreciate plot twists, and I am inwardly happy that even the best of plans can be thwarted by unknown variables, which the Voidspren and the Unmade are. However, the way the arc ended bothers me the most, not how it ended. It painted the protagonists as a bunch of emotional, immature brats who can't get anything right due to crippling doubts. Sure, Shallan and Kaladin aren't soldiers in the real sense of the word(Unlike Adolin who shrugged off Elhokar's death because he knew that freezing up wasn't an option), but I want to see these two show their capabilities. I want them to make use of their past experience and show us, the audience, that they have evolved. What good does it do me that Kaladin constantly finds reasons to brood over? It just proves that the journey is barely relevant in his case, as he's still the naive darkeyes from chapter 1 of "Way of Kings" where he wants to save everybody he cares about. The biggest offender here is that, just before the big skirmish, he tells Elhokar, "Save the one you can," an advice that he blatantly ignores. Being conflicted about his views clashing with the Ideals he swears is good, but it shouldn't come at the cost of turning him into a hypocrite.

Shallan is equally guilty. I won't really go into detail about her since her coping mechanism is even weirder than Kaladin's depression, but I can honestly say that this pattern starts to get repetitive. We are 3 books in now, and it's a tad irritating for the protagonists to still carry the demons they supposedly banished in books 1 and 2. I don't want Shallan and Kaladin to miraculously solve all of their problems, but to at least mature and grow a freaking spine! With great power come great responsibilities indeed, yet these two seem perfectly comfortable remaining in their cocoon while whining about how unfair life is to them.

But isnt that the part of the progression.. like kaladin failed t say the 4th ideal purely because he was holding himself back. I feel like that their progression as KR also slowly eliminates what haunts them. I think in one conversion between kaladin and syl when hes depressed he mentions how because hes broken he cant function as a KR and she laughs it off and answers with the fact that ALL the ancient KR were also broken people. I kinda get ya with kaladin as his obsession to save dalinar got annoying at times but at the same time the book did show a  path of character progression both kaladin and shallan become indepent and had responsibility especially in the case of shallan. Dalinars demons have been well documented since book 1 too and the villain defeated at  the end was a manifestation of his demons... 

I get your point but i feel like you're gonna find the repeptitive pattern with every character who is a KR

[king of nowhere Voidbringer]

1 hour ago, Windseeker said:

My biggest qualms with the Kholinar arc is the time it took to set it up vs the reward. Objectively speaking, I totally appreciate plot twists, and I am inwardly happy that even the best of plans can be thwarted by unknown variables, which the Voidspren and the Unmade are. However, the way the arc ended bothers me the most, not how it ended. It painted the protagonists as a bunch of emotional, immature brats who can't get anything right due to crippling doubts. Sure, Shallan and Kaladin aren't soldiers in the real sense of the word(Unlike Adolin who shrugged off Elhokar's death because he knew that freezing up wasn't an option), but I want to see these two show their capabilities. I want them to make use of their past experience and show us, the audience, that they have evolved.

You know what, I didn't like much the kholinar arc (well, I did like it, just not as much as the rest of the book), but I appreciate it more after this post. Because, yes, it shows that some of the main characters stiill have a way to go. In particular shallan; many people (myself included) were thinking that she was too successful in book 2, but this is the result. this is the logical follow-up. Shallan learned to put on a face of strenght to hide her weaknesses, but she lost a lot in doing so. and yes, she also has moments of immaturity stemming from not wanting to confront stuff. being so successful in the past aggravated it, giving her the feeling that she could do whatever she pleased. Jasnah putting her in her place was good for her; I just would like to know how did jasnah manage to figure out a pshycological profile of shallan so well after one day in urithiru.

And kaladin has faced his demons in book 2 and made considerable progress - he's much less depressed than he was in the past - but he's still not 100% ok. so, I guess that was the reason for the story arc

 

[EC11 Noble]

2 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

I wouldn’t say disappointed but that was the slowest part to me with it speeding up at the end. I think a lot of people felt the Shadesmar part was the slowest but I didn’t compared to most of the Kholinar scenes.

Shadesmar felt like the plot was moving though, with a coherent sense of direction. The Kholinar arc seemed to amble about a bit from set piece to set piece, feeling a tad clunky, with Azure being hyped up a touch too much. Wit/Hoid was great, and it felt like he helped move Shallan's character along, but even trying to sneak in to the Cult of the Moment seemed forced at points.

1 hour ago, Windseeker said:

I also disliked the Kholinar arc and believe it to be wasted potential. It's one of the parts that feels the most awkward coming from Brandon Sanderson because he's usually the type who really takes his time whenever a major conflict occurs, whereas here he wrapped up a major battle in about a page.

My biggest qualms with the Kholinar arc is the time it took to set it up vs the reward. Objectively speaking, I totally appreciate plot twists, and I am inwardly happy that even the best of plans can be thwarted by unknown variables, which the Voidspren and the Unmade are. However, the way the arc ended bothers me the most, not how it ended. It painted the protagonists as a bunch of emotional, immature brats who can't get anything right due to crippling doubts. Sure, Shallan and Kaladin aren't soldiers in the real sense of the word(Unlike Adolin who shrugged off Elhokar's death because he knew that freezing up wasn't an option), but I want to see these two show their capabilities. I want them to make use of their past experience and show us, the audience, that they have evolved. What good does it do me that Kaladin constantly finds reasons to brood over? It just proves that the journey is barely relevant in his case, as he's still the naive darkeyes from chapter 1 of "Way of Kings" where he wants to save everybody he cares about. The biggest offender here is that, just before the big skirmish, he tells Elhokar, "Save the one you can," an advice that he blatantly ignores. Being conflicted about his views clashing with the Ideals he swears is good, but it shouldn't come at the cost of turning him into a hypocrite.

Shallan is equally guilty. I won't really go into detail about her since her coping mechanism is even weirder than Kaladin's depression, but I can honestly say that this pattern starts to get repetitive. We are 3 books in now, and it's a tad irritating for the protagonists to still carry the demons they supposedly banished in books 1 and 2. I don't want Shallan and Kaladin to miraculously solve all of their problems, but to at least mature and grow a freaking spine! With great power come great responsibilities indeed, yet these two seem perfectly comfortable remaining in their cocoon while whining about how unfair life is to them.

One of my biggest problems was that that pay off to the arc was lumped very unceremoniously at the end. The biggest flaw being Aesudan not being built up enough to the reader before the big reveal that she's turned evil, which made that plot twist completely left field. I felt like it blindsided me completely, and had no foreshadowing, with very little proper build up to "is the queen evil, is she under the control of one of the Unmade" and her first on screen appearance was almost underwhelming as an explanation as to why the palace had gone dark. So the surprises of the city falling didn't seem overwhelming. 

Then Kaladin's Heroic BSOD moment seemed almost too abrupt, without enough context that he found himself killing former friends, then Elhokar's death almost felt forced. While Kaladin has some character growth regarding protecting people, this felt almost out of the blue that he shuts down completely. The foreshadowing on that one could have been a little more blunt.

[Windseeker Spearman]

2 hours ago, EC11 said:

Shadesmar felt like the plot was moving though, with a coherent sense of direction. The Kholinar arc seemed to amble about a bit from set piece to set piece, feeling a tad clunky, with Azure being hyped up a touch too much. Wit/Hoid was great, and it felt like he helped move Shallan's character along, but even trying to sneak in to the Cult of the Moment seemed forced at points.

One of my biggest problems was that that pay off to the arc was lumped very unceremoniously at the end. The biggest flaw being Aesudan not being built up enough to the reader before the big reveal that she's turned evil, which made that plot twist completely left field. I felt like it blindsided me completely, and had no foreshadowing, with very little proper build up to "is the queen evil, is she under the control of one of the Unmade" and her first on screen appearance was almost underwhelming as an explanation as to why the palace had gone dark. So the surprises of the city falling didn't seem overwhelming. 

Then Kaladin's Heroic BSOD moment seemed almost too abrupt, without enough context that he found himself killing former friends, then Elhokar's death almost felt forced. While Kaladin has some character growth regarding protecting people, this felt almost out of the blue that he shuts down completely. The foreshadowing on that one could have been a little more blunt.

I was 90% certain that Azure was a Herald during the first few chapters that included her character. It would have played brilliant with the plot if it turned out to be such, as it would have allowed the Heralds to at least redeem themselves. I've always rooted for the possibility where the Heralds(At least the more sane ones) try to make amends for what happened. I'm not sure why Brandon resorted to bringing in characters from other worlds and mixing them into the current plot. It runs the very high risk of opening up gaping plot holes, or logical flaws that will be very difficult to explain(For instance, do the people on Roshar have a Breath? Can they surrender their Breath to somebody from the Warbreaker planet?). It does solidify the concept of a common universe for his novels, but it also takes away a sliver of a novel's identity by introducing elements foreign to it(Such as Nightblood that can vaporize the biggest and most badass of dudes). Leave a world's internal matters to its denizens is what I say XD

I agree that Aesudan could have used more foreshadowing. I guess another disappointing factor is that, for all her scouting and infiltration tactics, Shallan didn't really discover anything. All that build-up, all the preparations to infiltrate the Cult of Moments, and her only discovery is "Yep, there's an Unmade there." No rust sherlock.... I also didn't understand why she fled the way she did. Sure, the Heart of the Revel was getting into her mind, but she was still expected to find a way to deal with it later, so why not at least stay a bit longer and see how much she can resist its influence?

With Kaladin, I honestly expected him to fight for those he's responsible for. I have always interpreted his Ideals as "I'll be loyal to the faction I belong to" so it felt natural for him to defend the Wall Guard and his team, no matter who he has to fight to see to their safety. By freezing he did a disservice to everybody, as they massacred each other anyway.

[EC11 Noble]

4 minutes ago, Windseeker said:

I was 90% certain that Azure was a Herald during the first few chapters that included her character. It would have played brilliant with the plot if it turned out to be such, as it would have allowed the Heralds to at least redeem themselves. I've always rooted for the possibility where the Heralds(At least the more sane ones) try to make amends for what happened. I'm not sure why Brandon resorted to bringing in characters from other worlds and mixing them into the current plot. It runs the very high risk of opening up gaping plot holes, or logical flaws that will be very difficult to explain(For instance, do the people on Roshar have a Breath? Can they surrender their Breath to somebody from the Warbreaker planet?). It does solidify the concept of a common universe for his novels, but it also takes away a sliver of a novel's identity by introducing elements foreign to it(Such as Nightblood that can vaporize the biggest and most badass of dudes). Leave a world's internal matters to its denizens is what I say XD

I agree that Aesudan could have used more foreshadowing. I guess another disappointing factor is that, for all her scouting and infiltration tactics, Shallan didn't really discover anything. All that build-up, all the preparations to infiltrate the Cult of Moments, and her only discovery is "Yep, there's an Unmade there." No rust sherlock.... I also didn't understand why she fled the way she did. Sure, the Heart of the Revel was getting into her mind, but she was still expected to find a way to deal with it later, so why not at least stay a bit longer and see how much she can resist its influence?

With Kaladin, I honestly expected him to fight for those he's responsible for. I have always interpreted his Ideals as "I'll be loyal to the faction I belong to" so it felt natural for him to defend the Wall Guard and his team, no matter who he has to fight to see to their safety. By freezing he did a disservice to everybody, as they massacred each other anyway.

Well Azure could be redeemed later if she ends up in conflict with Szeth over control of Nightblood, otherwise her inclusion in that part of the plot would be something of a waste and she might have been better regulated to the background as a secondary character rather than having her mystery built up so much. I'm fairly certain she will have to show up again at this point, but we shall see. 

Since Way of Kings I've seen the story as a big crossover so I'm bot too disappointed.

Agreed. For all of Shallan's scouting she didn't really tell us anything we didn't know about what was happening at the Palace. she never got a look at the queen, she never really figured out the plan from the Unmade, never even really got mislead by them. It kinda just flowed naturally from their pre-existing assumptions, which makes it less surprising when Kholinar falls.

Kaladin makes some sense, if he'd frozen having been forced to kill one of the Wall Guard trying to protect one of the parshmen that would have been an excellent reason for his BSOD, but here he kinda becomes too passive for the character growth we've seen (loyal to his squad first and all that) so his sudden descent into secondary bleakness felt out of the blue. I feel that his character could have gone down that path with a bit more aplomb after realizing he has "betrayed" one of the squads by fighting for the other side and now he can't protect everybody.

[MistLord Oldblood]

13 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

To number one, I was referring to a pure intent of Honor the shard, instead of Honor + Tanavast, and from that very quote it would appear that the shard's pure intent is very much as how I referred to it, but yes, given the context of a good vessel, most shards are pretty good.

2: I always saw Autonomy as the opposite of Honor, considering Honor is more or less taking away people's autonomy with oaths, the way I picture a pure shard intent Autonomy world, it would be almost the same as preservation as it would not be possible to interact with anything in any way because that forces it to do something, taking away it's autonomy. There's not like a second definition or really similar word and I'm misunderstanding autonomy is there?

Ah yes, true, Tanavast's raving would indicate Honour's intent at its purest prefers to look at the wording, not the meaning. I took this to mean that as he was dying (a la Preservation) he was being corrupted, and losing sight of his intent, but that doesn't make any sense, so you're right. 

A bit tangential, but I do agree out of all the Shards, Honour is most about restraint, and therefore loss of Autonomy. Especially if you conflate Honour with responsibility. 

 

6 hours ago, Windseeker said:

The biggest offender here is that, just before the big skirmish, [Kaladin] tells Elhokar, "Save the one you can," an advice that he blatantly ignores. Being conflicted about his views clashing with the Ideals he swears is good, but it shouldn't come at the cost of turning him into a hypocrite.

I do hope Kaladin's Fourth Ideal helps him overcome this hurdle, as I agree, it's becoming a bit repetitive. 

[Naurock High Prelan]

4 hours ago, Windseeker said:

I was 90% certain that Azure was a Herald during the first few chapters that included her character. It would have played brilliant with the plot if it turned out to be such, as it would have allowed the Heralds to at least redeem themselves. I've always rooted for the possibility where the Heralds(At least the more sane ones) try to make amends for what happened. I'm not sure why Brandon resorted to bringing in characters from other worlds and mixing them into the current plot. It runs the very high risk of opening up gaping plot holes, or logical flaws that will be very difficult to explain(For instance, do the people on Roshar have a Breath? Can they surrender their Breath to somebody from the Warbreaker planet?). It does solidify the concept of a common universe for his novels, but it also takes away a sliver of a novel's identity by introducing elements foreign to it(Such as Nightblood that can vaporize the biggest and most badass of dudes). Leave a world's internal matters to its denizens is what I say XD

Brandon considers Warbreaker to be the prequel to all of the Stormlight Archives. I wish I was better at navigating the WoB database and it's been a long times since I've tried but I have read quite a few things regarding this. Also, only people born on Nalthis have a breath. Humans born there have an extra bit of Investiture from Endowment, and awakening allows them to harness this investiture.

Azure/Vivenna has changes considerably from Warbreaker and we are missing a lot of information. There must have been a war on Nalthis and her and Vasher probably created another Awakened Blade (maybe more than one). She probably has a large trove of breaths, and at the 5th heightening an awakener has "agelessness". She may have more, who knows.

But why is Nightblood so confusing to you? Warbreaker explained several times that he cuts on all three realms so whatever he kills is gone forever. He explained it in this book as well with Szeth. We have Shardblades, Radiants and living Sprenblades, Heralds and Honor Blades. They're all related, in a way.