[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[Turnblade Jade]

2 minutes ago, rjl said:

It's not the knife that he uses to kill Jezrien; they give it to him afterwards.

Ah, you're right. I missed that somehow.

[Turnblade Jade]

31 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I agree with these two points and think that may have been my problem with the ending.

One note though Felt said that because..

Mistborn Spoilers 

  Reveal hidden contents

He’s a world hopper from Scadrial.

 

Thanks for the clarification on Felt.

[SquareOne]

Just finished. The way Dalinar's storyline played out left me uneasy and I truly hope his revealed past leads to serious conflicts with the other protagonists in the next book.  At the end of the day, he is a mass murderer and war criminal who throughout his life was too weak to reject his addiction to the thrill, even after doing terrible things over and over and over again. He became a decent person only after having his past and personality altered by Cultivation. People here are saying that he was a good person all along but that just doesnt match his actions at all. He literally had hundreds of children murdered. He nearly murdered his own brother and resolved to change but he didnt change at all. He crippled people in barfights and shrugged it off and so on. None of this ever had a profound enough impact on him to make him change on his own. In light of all this, I cannot accept that the other characters will be willing to just forgive someone like that, even if he has finally truly resolved to change.

I think Dalinar would have made a fantastic villain. When I read the Rift flashback I thought "holy rust there is no coming back from this.". The way broken Kaladin and Seth placed all their hopes on Dalinar being a good man, a man worth protecting only to learn that he is in fact a monster would have been a devastating and interesting twist to the confrontation in the final part of the book. 

That said, I still thought the moment where Dalinar forms his resolve and denies Odium was quite powerful. I just hope his actions are confronted by the other characters in the future. They might still respect him but he is not someone who should be admired by people like Kaladin.

[Fulminato]

1 hour ago, Turnblade Jade said:

• Odium "No! We killed you!" His whole reaction to Dalinar needed a bit more of Sandrson's first law of magic. Dalinar solved a problem without the reader understanding quite enough about HOW. I can forgive though, because Dalinar is AWESOME. Also, having Honor come back to life would be a bit of a cop out. I'd rather see progression than restoration in this part of the story.

• Ruin and Preservation both left behind physical bodies in the form of metals

1) i don't see so much problem. a perpendicularity is a place of concentrate investiture, so high to bend the border of the three realm and create a 'well' piercing the three realm. in the scene there is an freaking huge amount of gloryspren (the sprens are a tiny bit of investiture gained sentience) go to dalinar, enough to create the perpendicularity, dalinar make a similar stunt in the moment he use the vedenar oathgate without a blade to work the mechanism. 

2) the bodies of the vessel of ruin and preservation are the real bodies of the people take the shard, ati was a red head man, and leras ad a prominent nose (IIRC). atium and lerasium are the solid manifestation of the shard power, the raw power of honor is 'spent' in making the spren. before odium shatter honor the 'spren with mind' was less plentiful (pattern in WoR)

Edited November 19, 2017 by Fulminato

[Seeker Of Truth]

Anyone else find it extremely important that Hoid found that spren.  He's been collecting different forms of investure, and I can only guess how many he has, but if he gets surgebinding which is seen as one of investure's most powerful forms He could be capable of anything.  I just really want to see how he'll play into the rest of the fight against Odium.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Seeker Of Truth

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, Seeker Of Truth said:

Anyone else find it extremely important that Hoid found that spren.  He's been collecting different forms of investure, and I can only guess how many he has, but if he gets surgebinding which is seen as one of investure's most powerful forms He could be capable of anything.  I just really want to see how he'll play into the rest of the fight against Odium.

I was actually really surprised by this scene. On one hand thought it was cool and makes since in his quest to gather investiture. On the other it seems weird to me a spren would just decide it’s ok to hitch a ride with him. I guess this was kinda like Hoid welcoming the spren to the PR to follow suit with the other epilogues but just seemed a little weird to me. 

[GoddessIMHO]

Someone back a ways mentioned we'd get no more Gavilar information.  I can't remember where but Navani makes the comment that near the end of his life he had turned dark. He gave Szeth that captured dark spren to free didn't he? I think there is more to come about how involved he may have been with either Odium or one of other spren.

[Mondaysjelly]

With Amaram now out of the picture, Sons of Honour will now certainly make a move. As mentioned in the Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin thread, I suspect tensions in that dynamic will eventually lead to Navani revealing more about her troubled relationship with Gavilar before his death, which will tie in nicely with Restares and the Sons of Honour popping up.

[mariapapadia]

ok, so I will probably live to regret spending time to write this, in 5 hours when my alarms goes off and I have to wake up and actually be efficient for the first time in a week. UGHHH! But, I've been turning on all sides, trying to fall asleep and I can't until i get all this out of me. 

Sooo... I finished the book probably one hour ago. It was a really slow read for me, even though in the last 3 days this is the only thing I've done.

I will start from the back. I really liked the epilogue and I loved Wit in this book. When I realised what he was doing I actually squeaked. I would give him the award for Roshar's therapist no.1. Speaking of why he was after that spren... I think one of the most 3 emotional moments for me in this book was the death of Elhokar. I didn't get to read any other reactions so I don't know if I'm alone in this, but it hit me hard. It's not that it was something so out of the ordinary, but lately I've gotten quite fond of him and then after all the disscusions on the forum I had high hopes for him  this is for me to learn the lesson to stop following the character's arc threads in order to avoid being hurt like this.

I HATE, HATE, HATE Moash. UGHGHGHGHGH He got me so frustrated thoughout the whole book. His chapters where really hard to get through from the beginning and after Elhokar AND after Jezrien, I was one step away of throwing the book to a wall. *INHALE...EXHALE* 

Other powerful moments for me where when Dalinar did his thing at the end (for lack of a better word) and when Teft swore the 3rd oath. I was on my bed flipping my legs in the air of excitement. I actually had to read those a couple of times cause I was tearing up 

There were some things that didn't work for me in the book. 

• Moash's arc in the beginning felt too similar with Kaladin's. Not a major thing,but still not a fan of. 
• The battle scene in the last part felt too long for me. After Kaladin and the others returned and Dalinar's epic moment, the whole battle felt a big dragged and MAYBE instead of having 100+ pages of battle stuff, we could've gotten a better explanation of Sethz new alliance. I mean, I understand it and so on, but I would've like to see actual reactions from the characters when that happened. Instead everyone went along with it and no one questioned it. I understand it was in the last part and everything was a bit rushed, but still. Even after the battle NO ONE of the characters that didn't know his though process questioned it. I found it mind blowing that Kaladin so easily lets him become Dalinar's new bodyguard after he tried to kill him twice! I think this and Moash were the things that irked me the most.
• how the love triangle worked out. I will probably talk more on this on other threads. It's not that I mind Shadolin, I was somewhere in the middle, but I really expected more of this whole thing and I wanted it to be explored more in depth. WoR created such anticipation for it and it had the potential of being more interesting, but in the end it felt underwhelmed. 
• This is something I found on my notes, but i felt that in the 3rd part Syl and Pattern weren't as much part of the dialogue, which was a shame. 
• the whole Bridge 4 chapters in part 2. I don't know how to feel about it. I enjoyed Teft's and Rock's ( When I thought Rock was dead I almost threw the book again), but they were overshadowed by the dreadful Moash in the end. I liked Lopen as well.

Now that I expressed some of my frustration, I will go on to the other things I liked 

• Nightblood. I alsolutely loved him(her?). It was my favourite in Warbreaker and it didn't disspoint me here either. His conversations with Sethz must be some of my favourite parts of the book. 
• Sethz. I liked his character from the previous books, but now I am really excited for him to get his own book. Hopeflly that will still happen. 
• Venli. I... I don't know what to say of Eshonai, I didn't feel that much for her, so her death was such a big hit for me.  When Venli realised she lost her friend, that's when I started caring for her. She is a new one that I'm excited for. 
• Lift. After reading Edgedancer and giving it some time, I've come to the realisation I liked LIft and I was glad we didn't have to wait for another book until she made an appearence. It was a shame she was such a background character in this book, but I'll take what I can get. 
• Wit, being there for Shallan. Another one of my favourite parts in the book. It was later shadowed by something else, but that's a talk for another thread. 
• The stories in the book, also a lot of great quotes
• Rysn, I would like to see more of her

For a moment I thought Sebarial is going to be king :)) that's so stupid, but that scene cut right to Palona and him. At that point Jasnah slipped out of my mind. 

Unfortunately I was spoiled about Dalinar being the author, it was something I was beginning to suspect anyway, so in the end it wasn't such a big thing. But knowing that and also reading some theories before, about what happened to Evi, I wasn't blown away by the revelation he killed her. I was sure he didn't kill the child though, so at least there's that. 

Overall I enjoyed the book, I need to give a little bit of though and maybe a reread of some parts, because there were parts I did love, but I don't know what to feel about the whole yet.  Anyway, this post is too rambly and it's more for me to have some first impressions I can go back to . I'm sure I forgot a lot of things and I can't be bother to check it for missspellings. I know I spelled Szeth wrong and only realised it in the end. But oh well.. Maybe now I can get some sleep. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Stromblessed]

31 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I was actually really surprised by this scene. On one hand thought it was cool and makes since in his quest to gather investiture. On the other it seems weird to me a spren would just decide it’s ok to hitch a ride with him. I guess this was kinda like Hoid welcoming the spren to the PR to follow suit with the other epilogues but just seemed a little weird to me. 

It was the Cryptic Elhokar was gonna bond. But since he dies without bonding it was stuck in the physical realm still looking for a human partner

[StormingTexan]

45 minutes ago, Stromblessed said:

It was the Cryptic Elhokar was gonna bond. But since he dies without bonding it was stuck in the physical realm still looking for a human partner

Yeah I realize that. I guess I see the spren searching out humans to bond not the other way around which is what seemed weird.

[BarrileteCosmico]

2 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

I was actually really surprised by this scene. On one hand thought it was cool and makes since in his quest to gather investiture. On the other it seems weird to me a spren would just decide it’s ok to hitch a ride with him. I guess this was kinda like Hoid welcoming the spren to the PR to follow suit with the other epilogues but just seemed a little weird to me. 

The fused were ordering the palace destroyed trying to find him, if he didn't go to Hoid he likely would have been captured/killed

[TheLordRuler]

Just some stray thoughts.
Why didn't Ash and Taln have a larger role in the end? It was made out like they would be involved, representing 2 of the 9 orders Dalinar listed. I kept expecting a scene of them in battle but I guess that would be too much. Another question, was Taln's lucidity derived from Honours Perpendicularity appearing? If yes (which I believe so) then why wouldn't they attempt to move closer to Dalinar and provide advice, something Taln would presumably be keen on.
Other than that, really interested to see how Jasnah handles the 2 heralds.

Looks like Hoid wants to become a Surgebinder. How would this affect his use of other systems? Stormlight seems to be the most active and potent form of investiture. Would there be interference if attempted to use Surgebinding and Allomancy together?

The constant repetition of "Unite Them" to Dalinar. I think uniting the humans of Roshar is the first step, but am I the only one who thinks this extends to uniting the humans and Singers/Listeners (I don't think all the listeners are dead)? Whats the other alternative? Genocide against a species they have already wronged in so many ways? We've seen through Venli and the Thaylen Singers that perhaps they aren't so keen on war and a compromise can be reached. I think if more Singers were to join the KR's then it could be key to solving the issue. Additionally, I don't think its a war they can win anyway. Virtually no Radiants, no Honour, no Heralds, no Uritheru and the Coalition has fragmented before ever being set. 

I had more to write but I forgot a large portion of it because I didn't want to stop reading. This book was somehow too big, yet not big enough at the same time haha.

[StormingTexan]

13 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

 

Just some stray thoughts.
Why didn't Ash and Taln have a larger role in the end? It was made out like they would be involved, representing 2 of the 9 orders Dalinar listed. I kept expecting a scene of them in battle but I guess that would be too much. Another question, was Taln's lucidity derived from Honours Perpendicularity appearing? If yes (which I believe so) then why wouldn't they attempt to move closer to Dalinar and provide advice, something Taln would presumably be keen on.
Other than that, really interested to see how Jasnah handles the 2 heralds.

 

I need to go back and re-read this because it doesn’t really make sense. Ash would represent Lightweavers same as Shallan so really it’s two missing Willshapers and Dustbringer although I guess he could have included Malata even though she wasn’t at the battle right? To your point though without thier blades they do not really have any surges but you’d think they could at least offer advice. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by StormingTexan

[lexoj]

2 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I need to go back and re-read this because it doesn’t really make sense. Ash would represent Lightweavers same as Shallan so really it’s two missing Willshapers and Dustbringer although I guess he could have included Malata even though she wasn’t at the battle right?

Venli was there too and she bonded an unknown Radiant spren that is likely a Willshaper spren. 

While Ash is the patron of the Lightweavers and Shallan being there also does indicate the Lightweavers are doubly represented, it could also mean that Ash may be bonding an Ashspren to become a Dustbringer in the future to preserve the symmetry and representation. 

[Fallen_Ash]

I feel really stupid for how upset I am about the resolution of the Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan love triangle. I thought it was going to be built up into this really juicy emotional conflict, and I definitely invested too much into it. So instead of being absolutely blown away by all the incredible things that made me start sobbing (Jasnah hugging Renarin! Szeth choosing Dalinar! Venli and Teft—oh and Lopen—becoming Radiant!) I’m just left feeling disappointed (in myself and in the book) and a little mad. 

I thought the initial flirtation between Shallan and Kaladin was exciting, and I couldn’t wait to see it progress into this book. But considering it’s a five-book series, I figured that either way Brandon went, he’d take his time and develop both relationships. 

But nope. Shallan is madly in love with Adolin because “he knows the real her,” which I thought was odd because she doesn’t even know herself, and I don’t think he knows her past, which I know she likes to cover up but is a HUGE aspect of who she has become. Maybe this will create drama in the next two books? Not that these books need more conflict, but a nice romantic plot line is a nice contrast to the good vs. evil, moral ambiguity, destruction of the entire world, main story.

Oh, and he’s perfect and likes art and has nice arms. This is why 17 year olds don’t get married  

(To be fair, I DO like Adolin, I just personally don’t think he’s the most interesting character. And I don’t quite buy their relationship.)

Of course, Kaladin and Shallan’s relationship didn’t exactly develop either. They insult each other and he wishes he could push down his emotions. I mean, I was imagining an arc where they worked together to fight their demons and support each other while fighting to save their species and they explored Roshar together since they’re both into natural history—but that would be dumb. She definitely belongs with the guy who can feed her newfound drinking habit. 

Oh, and Kaladin is in love with his spren, so that won’t get weird. Good thing she’s corporeal in Shadesmar!

Other than that though, loved the book. Wish we’d had a bit more Jasnah, but I know that’s coming. I’m also excited for more Rock backstory. 

I’m glad no one I REALLY loved died in this one, but I was bummed about Elhokar. He was just trying his best, and he almost redeemed himself. Stupid Moash. 

Also stupid Taravangian. Like Dalinar, I can’t help but like him. Unlike Dalinar, I know exactly how dangerous he is. 

Speaking of Dalinar, realizing he’s the author of Oathbringer was one of the sweetest twists ever. 

[TheLordRuler]

23 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I need to go back and re-read this because it doesn’t really make sense. Ash would represent Lightweavers same as Shallan so really it’s two missing Willshapers and Dustbringer although I guess he could have included Malata even though she wasn’t at the battle right? To your point though without thier blades they do not really have any surges but you’d think they could at least offer advice. 

Quote

Those two only make nine, he thought to the Stormfather. Something told him there should be one more. Chapter 119 Oathbringer

I thought he was talking about the 10 orders, it made the most sense to me.

Venli wasn't too far away so she might have been included? I don't think that's the case though since he is referring to the 9 in his proximity. Whats the significance of having 10 people? 

[TheLordRuler]

9 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I feel really stupid for how upset I am about the resolution of the Kaladin/Adolin/Shallan love triangle. I thought it was going to be built up into this really juicy emotional conflict, and I definitely invested too much into it. So instead of being absolutely blown away by all the incredible things that made me start sobbing (Jasnah hugging Renarin! Szeth choosing Dalinar! Venli and Teft—oh and Lopen—becoming Radiant!) I’m just left feeling disappointed (in myself and in the book) and a little mad. 

I thought the initial flirtation between Shallan and Kaladin was exciting, and I couldn’t wait to see it progress into this book. But considering it’s a five-book series, I figured that either way Brandon went, he’d take his time and develop both relationships. 

But nope. Shallan is madly in love with Adolin because “he knows the real her,” which I thought was odd because she doesn’t even know herself, and I don’t think he knows her past, which I know she likes to cover up but is a HUGE aspect of who she has become. Maybe this will create drama in the next two books? Not that these books need more conflict, but a nice romantic plot line is a nice contrast to the good vs. evil, moral ambiguity, destruction of the entire world, main story.

Oh, and he’s perfect and likes art and has nice arms. This is why 17 year olds don’t get married  

(To be fair, I DO like Adolin, I just personally don’t think he’s the most interesting character. And I don’t quite buy their relationship.)

Of course, Kaladin and Shallan’s relationship didn’t exactly develop either. They insult each other and he wishes he could push down his emotions. I mean, I was imagining an arc where they worked together to fight their demons and support each other while fighting to save their species and they explored Roshar together since they’re both into natural history—but that would be dumb. She definitely belongs with the guy who can feed her newfound drinking habit. 

Oh, and Kaladin is in love with his spren, so that won’t get weird. Good thing she’s corporeal in Shadesmar!

Lol I feel like you're more invested in the emotional side of things in the books. Nothing wrong with that, but romance is obviously secondary in the series so drama and exploring Roshar together probably doesn't have a place in an epic fantasy hitting stride. Not many were satisfied with how the triangle went, but I think we're willing to ignore that considering how well done the rest of the book is.

Also, Kaladin in love with Syl? Thats kinda disturbing. Not sure where this extrapolation came from. I would assume most Surgebinders are as close as Kal and Syl since they get to know each other so well.

[TheLordRuler]

Another point I forgot to mention earlier on is Vasher and his criminal status. Speculation as to what could have caused this? Maybe Vivenna awakened her blade specifically to hunt Vasher? Also, has Vivenna's shapeshifting expanded beyond hair colour? At one point Adolin mentions her scars fading alongside her hair changing colour.

[Fallen_Ash]

28 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Lol I feel like you're more invested in the emotional side of things in the books. Nothing wrong with that, but romance is obviously secondary in the series so drama and exploring Roshar together probably doesn't have a place in an epic fantasy hitting stride. Not many were satisfied with how the triangle went, but I think we're willing to ignore that considering how well done the rest of the book is.

Also, Kaladin in love with Syl? Thats kinda disturbing. Not sure where this extrapolation came from. I would assume most Surgebinders are as close as Kal and Syl since they get to know each other so well.

“We’re willing to ignore that”? Thanks for speaking on behalf of the entire fandom. I already said I felt stupid for caring so much about it. I just thought we’d had a good setup that wasn’t resolved. But Brandon does like putting his weddings in the middle of/before the action.

Also, human emotion is a pretty integral part of this story, wouldn’t you think? 

And obviously the healing and fighting together is actually what I would expect from the story, not categorizing cremlings. I was blissfully imagining a time where they could live without war, but they’re all going to die anyway so I guess it doesn’t matter who marries who. 

I know other people legitimately ship Syl and Kaladin. For me, I was picking up vibes in all the cuddly Shadesmar behavior and how he cut off when he said “I never loved her, she just reminded me of...” which I think could have meant Syl or Tien, but I interpreted it as Syl for the purposes of this comment. 

I actually get more angry the more I think about it. Shallan is this deeply broken character who is magically healed because a pretty boy likes her? She has a LONG way to go, and the ending was a bit too “Handsome man saves me from myself!” for me.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Fallen_Ash

[Kurkistan]

11 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Another point I forgot to mention earlier on is Vasher and his criminal status. Speculation as to what could have caused this? Maybe Vivenna awakened her blade specifically to hunt Vasher? Also, has Vivenna's shapeshifting expanded beyond hair colour? At one point Adolin mentions her scars fading alongside her hair changing colour.

Yeah, probably. Changing more than hair has been a thing since the annotations.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Kurkistan

[TheLordRuler]

6 minutes ago, Fallen_Ash said:

“We’re willing to ignore that”? Thanks for speaking on behalf of the entire fandom. I already said I felt stupid for caring so much about it. I just thought we’d had a good setup that wasn’t resolved. But Brandon does like putting his weddings in the middle of/before the action.

Also, human emotion is a pretty integral part of this story, wouldn’t you think? 

And obviously the healing and fighting together is actually what I would expect from the story, not categorizing cremlings. I was blissfully imagining a time where they could live without war, but they’re all going to die anyway so I guess it doesn’t matter who marries who. 

I don't think its stupid, I just think expecting Brandon to fit that in somewhere is too much when he is already trying to cram a large story with many plots in. This becomes obvious when you look at the threads he dropped like Sadeas's death, Helaran's death, Amaram's role in the Sons of Honour all which are potentially more important than the triangle. 

I guess 'ignore' was too strong a word, tolerate is probably the better word. And I'm basing it on the reactions I've read in this thread and the other threads. Most seem to agree that it could have been done better, but in light of what a significant undertaking Oathbringer was, it's forgivable.

Also, I thought I made it pretty clear that I meant romance when talking about emotion. I agree that emotion does play an important role in the series. But romance has never been the emotion at the forefront in Brandon's books, as far as I can tell.

[Kitch]

23 minutes ago, TheLordRuler said:

Another point I forgot to mention earlier on is Vasher and his criminal status.

I think it has something to do with the decisions made on Roshar. Vasher mentioned that there were decisions he regrets to Kaladin.....I think the main one that pushed him into staying on Roshar and trying to do some good, to redeem himself, was that he was involved in the process of removing the Identity and Connection from the Parsh.  He's probably one of the foremost scholars on Investure in the cosmere, so I'm sure he's the mind of person who could have figured it out.  And thought he was doing something good....until he realized he helped with enslaving the native species of a planet.

[TheLordRuler]

1 minute ago, Kitch said:

I think it has something to do with the decisions made on Roshar. Vasher mentioned that there were decisions he regrets to Kaladin.....I think the main one that pushed him into staying on Roshar and trying to do some good, to redeem himself, was that he was involved in the process of removing the Identity and Connection from the Parsh.  He's probably one of the foremost scholars on Investure in the cosmere, so I'm sure he's the mind of person who could have figured it out.  And thought he was doing something good....until he realized he helped with enslaving the native species of a planet.

2

But that would mean he is over 4000 years old, which Im pretty sure is not the case. Even if he were Immortal due to his Divine Breath, we know Vivenna is not immortal and she was born about 400 years after him IIRC. So unless she's been time travelling (is this possible?), I don't think the timelines match up. Also, I believe Brandon said Warbreaker and Stormlight Archive occur close to each other.

[Fallen_Ash]

1 minute ago, TheLordRuler said:

I don't think its stupid, I just think expecting Brandon to fit that in somewhere is too much when he is already trying to cram a large story with many plots in. This becomes obvious when you look at the threads he dropped like Sadeas's death, Helaran's death, Amaram's role in the Sons of Honour all which are potentially more important than the triangle. 

I guess 'ignore' was too strong a word, tolerate is probably the better word. And I'm basing it on the reactions I've read in this thread and the other threads. Most seem to agree that it could have been done better, but in light of what a significant undertaking Oathbringer was, it's forgivable.

Also, I thought I made it pretty clear that I meant romance when talking about emotion. I agree that emotion does play an important role in the series. But romance has never been the emotion at the forefront in Brandon's books, as far as I can tell.

Oh yeah I was expecting a much bigger emotional payoff for the revelations of Sadeas and Helaran’s deaths. But I guess Dalinar has no right to criticize Adolin, and Shallan’s killed more of her own family members than anyone else. 

Brandon is not the best at romance, but with the WoR buildup I was expecting more. Romance, love, lust—these are aspects of human emotion that are important to humanity’s existence, so I would expect this book, more than others, to address it (plenty of time was spent on Dalinar pining for Navani). If romance isn’t important, why tease a love triangle at all? Adolin and Shallan get betrothed for political reasons, find out they actually like each other and he likes her even though she’s broken. That was the entire culmination of the plot, so why include the Kaladin stuff at all? The books are big enough...