[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[Jess]

13 minutes ago, Fineous said:

After all I am pretty certain that we know that all humans were actually created by Adonalsium EXCEPT for the ones on Scadrial, as none of the shards were able to create life on their own, and it was the joint work of both Preservation and Ruin that was necessary to create the humans on Scadrial.

[...]

As for them coming from Ashyn, I don't think so, see above about human creation, but perhaps I am mixed up on my Cosmere knowledge?  Anyone else more knowledgeable about the Cosmere than me want to weigh in?

When I say they came from Ashyn, I don't mean they ultimately originated there, just that they were there immediately prior to migrating to Roshar. For instance, they could have gone from Yolen to Ashyn, then Ashyn to Roshar thousands of years later (see: the Iriali Long Trail myth).

That said, I think it's premature to assume that Scadrial is the only instance of shards creating de novo humans. It is said that Ruin and Preservation couldn't create life on their own because of their intents; that doesn't mean a different shard couldn't do it. And even if it does take two shards, there are still multiple shards completely unknown to us that could have teamed up to do it.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Jess

[Fineous]

1 minute ago, Jess said:

When I say they came from Ashyn, I don't mean they ultimately originated there, just that they were there immediately prior to migrating to Roshar. For instance, they could have gone from Yolen to Ashyn, then Ashyn to Roshar thousands of years later (see: the Iriali Long Trail myth).

That said, I think it's premature to assume that Scadrial is the only instance of shards creating de novo humans. It is said that Ruin and Preservation couldn't create life on their own because of their intents; that doesn't mean a different shard couldn't do it. And even if it does take two shards, there are still multiple shards completely unknown to us that could have teamed up to do it.

Ahh, got it.  Investiture does seem to vary from world to world, though.  According to the unpublished story The Silence Divine the investiture on Ashyn has to do with people getting powers when they get sick, and that last until they get better.  That is unpublished though, so it might not be specifically canonical yet.

[Muggins]

I was pretty disappointed with this book.  I'd been so excited for it for such a long time, and it felt like a bit of a mess to me.  The overall plot arc was just too chaotic.  The plotting was a lot less cohesive than in the other books; there were several side plots that popped up and disappeared early on, that just gave the book a bit of a unwieldy nature.  I felt it lacked forward momentum, and cohesion.  It picked up near the end of part 3, but it just didn't work for me the way the first two books in the series did.  There was such a huge setup for the Everstorm, but it felt anticlimactic.   The murder investigation felt rushed, and a little pointless, and Kaladin's trip home, then time with Khen, Sah et al. and trip back to Urithiru felt disjointed.  It also lacked emotional resonance for me.  There was never that point where I couldn't put the book down and had to read all night.  It took me a week to read this (I had an advanced reader copy) which is unheard of for me.    I feel like most of the posts here have been pretty positive.  Was anyone else super disappointed?  

[IndigoAjah]

I loved it. Not without flaws, but I thought better than WoR, read it almost straight, getting no sleep at all between starting and finishing and have reread a fair bit of it.

 

agree it's not as tight as it should have been though. But a series of this scale I think will inherently lose tightness 

[Fineous]

10 minutes ago, Fineous said:

The term Voidbinding was used multiple times in the book.  Will go back and skim to see who uses it, might just be Kaladin.

Sorry, got distracted from my original thought, which is even when they do voidbind, everyone is SURPRISED by that fact.  As far as everyone on Roshar thought all the surgebinding powers started with the Honorblades.  So Jasnah should assume that no one had access to any kind of magic before the Honorblades.

[Harbour]

20 minutes ago, Muggins said:

Was anyone else super disappointed?  

I wasnt but i see where your points come from. I absolutely got the feeling of some plot lines being undercooked or ended too soon.

First Part of the book felt like one huuuuge prologue for the main story, and it was very weird to say the least. Brandon clearly set up unexpected Kaladin The Prisoner, Adolin the Investigator, Copycat Murderer lines, with great suspence, and then ended all of them in an unexpected weird way. He literally make Kaladin to fly away and Shallan to solve Adolin's problems.

I remember us speculating all around about Ialai involvment and how that will turn bad for Adolin. We expected Adolin double accusation to be a holy rust moment. It could be such a clever and shocking moment. But then nothing of that happened. Shallan just used Veil and did all the job. Ialai was insignificant treat if was at all.

Most of the guns, hooks and theories Sanderson left in the end of the WoR to make us wait for more pretty much were shot in the First Part or simply dealt with unexpectedly easy (Sadeas murder).

Edited November 17, 2017 by Harbour

[Fineous]

26 minutes ago, Jess said:

When I say they came from Ashyn, I don't mean they ultimately originated there, just that they were there immediately prior to migrating to Roshar. For instance, they could have gone from Yolen to Ashyn, then Ashyn to Roshar thousands of years later (see: the Iriali Long Trail myth).

That said, I think it's premature to assume that Scadrial is the only instance of shards creating de novo humans. It is said that Ruin and Preservation couldn't create life on their own because of their intents; that doesn't mean a different shard couldn't do it. And even if it does take two shards, there are still multiple shards completely unknown to us that could have teamed up to do it.

Also, just went back and re-read that post by Sanderson, and realized he just said 'The first planet with Humans on it was Yolen' NOT that humans originally came from Yolen, Though of course he would have to say it that way because of Scadrial, but it does also leave it open to other possibilities.

[IndigoAjah]

Sanderson's thing is pretending to deal with hooks that come back though.

 

for example, the Adolin murder thing is not over, no more than Kaladin not suddenly forgiving all Lighteyes at the end of WoK

 

and again, like there, people will probably complain...

[Aleksiel]

19 minutes ago, Muggins said:

I was pretty disappointed with this book.  I'd been so excited for it for such a long time, and it felt like a bit of a mess to me.  The overall plot arc was just too chaotic.  The plotting was a lot less cohesive than in the other books; there were several side plots that popped up and disappeared early on, that just gave the book a bit of a unwieldy nature.  I felt it lacked forward momentum, and cohesion.  It picked up near the end of part 3, but it just didn't work for me the way the first two books in the series did.  There was such a huge setup for the Everstorm, but it felt anticlimactic.   The murder investigation felt rushed, and a little pointless, and Kaladin's trip home, then time with Khen, Sah et al. and trip back to Urithiru felt disjointed.  It also lacked emotional resonance for me.  There was never that point where I couldn't put the book down and had to read all night.  It took me a week to read this (I had an advanced reader copy) which is unheard of for me.    I feel like most of the posts here have been pretty positive.  Was anyone else super disappointed?  

It's not what I expected either. There were too many PoVs, some subplots lead nowhere or were barely explored. It felt unfocused and rushed, it lacked the character depth I grew used to in the last two books. I'm glad we didn't get a love triangle, but I wonder why was the Shallan/Kaladin sort of attraction even there in the first place and they never even spoke of Helaran. Elhokar's arch had no resolution, he didn't even die managing to save his son or anything. Sadeas murder turned to have no ramifications for Adolin. The unmade and everstorm turned out pretty underwhelming for the set up they had. The whole trip in Shadesmar was kind of weird. The whole Dalinar Ascension was confusing. Things like that. I wouldn't say supper disappointed, but OB definitely fell short of my expectations and wasn't on the same level as the last two for me. I think people who agree with you might not want to share it because they could be worried the rest of the fandom would be hostile.

3 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

and again, like there, people will probably complain...

Would you rather people post only praise? Avoid expressing their opinion? Have only people who praise every single word in the books be on the forum?

[IndigoAjah]

No I just find it an amusing thing that people complained about at the time- that these problems don't magically go away as soon as they are first engaged and apparently solved- like Kal not magically ignoring his years of oppression and his depression. Or Shallan reverting to immaturity of earlier books. Or Vin, in MB, not solving her identity crisis despite it very very superficially being "solved" in TFE. It's seen as false character development, where I would argue it is fair more genuine than pretending issues just disappear.

 

for me it's one of the best bits of character work in the series, but people are entitled to their views just as much

[axehoundlover]

I dont remember where in the book, but it mentions that shortly before the recreance the "parsh" were fighting to reach feverstone keep, which we know from Dalinar's visions is at least where a significant number of KR left behind their oaths. Anyone think it is possible that the parsh had been trying to reach the location of Honor's perpendicularity and had somehow finished the process of splintering him. Thereby killing the spren currently bonded in the nahel bond, and then all the spren belonging to the KR were dead so they left them behind. And it is just assumed by the spren that the spren died because the KR broke their bonds because that is the only way that they knew KR spren to die before that and since.

[MothersMilkInACup]

3 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

How is that any different to, say, Jasnah? Szeth? Mraize? The only reason she seems out of place is because you KNOW she's from Warbreaker (or more accurately, Warbreaker is her character prequel to give backstory for when she turns up here). Ignoring that cross- world interactions is meant to be a major point in SA anyway, none of those things are any more enigmatic than the first time we hear about any of the new concepts in this book (as in, new to the characters). You are biased simply because you know the origins of her mysteries 

As someone who has yet to read Warbreaker I agree. I thought she was just a semi interesting new character until her tidbits about being from another planet. Then I became interested but she didn't feel out of place or anything. They were in shadesmar and Kaladin had just spoken to someone from another planet anyway. It just added more worldbuilding and gave more of an explanation on Nightblood and Zahel. 

 

That said I loved this book. Dalinar is officially my favorite character of all time. Taln is such a sweet soul, I wonder if Dalinar uniting the three realms somehow healed him for a time. My only slight issue was the radiants showing up together towards the end felt like an Avengers movie moment. It was fun yet felt kind of forced for some reason. Rest In peace Ehlokar you sweet soul. 

 

Also hello sharders, first post. 

[Smokeform]

I really loved the book. I attempted to protect my grades by not reading at school but staying up til two AM probably didn’t help. I am looking forward for Jasnah’s book. Her backstory is going to be great to read. My least favorite part was Moash striving to compete with Amaram for #1 hated character. It makes me think that Kaladin’s next path will be about not protecting the people he likes if it is not right. Favorite part was probably Kaladin seeing his family again or Dalinar doing his unity thing. Does anyone else think the radiant Mraise mentioned that had been killed was Tien? 

[flying_shadow]

7 minutes ago, MothersMilkInACup said:

Also hello sharders, first post. 

Hi! I love your username.

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, MothersMilkInACup said:

As someone who has yet to read Warbreaker I agree. I thought she was just a semi interesting new character until her tidbits about being from another planet. Then I became interested but she didn't feel out of place or anything. They were in shadesmar and Kaladin had just spoken to someone from another planet anyway. It just added more worldbuilding and gave more of an explanation on Nightblood and Zahel. 

That said I loved this book. Dalinar is officially my favorite character of all time. Taln is such a sweet soul, I wonder if Dalinar uniting the three realms somehow healed him for a time. My only slight issue was the radiants showing up together towards the end felt like an Avengers movie moment. It was fun yet felt kind of forced for some reason. Rest In peace Ehlokar you sweet soul. 

Also hello sharders, first post. 

Welcome to the shard and thank you for a lovely first post that granted us a more clear view of how Azure was perceived . On all characters arriving at the end, yeah, I think Brandon once said that one of the hardest things to do was get all the people to the right place at the same time.

I did feel a bit hollow when the book ended, but I suspect that its because I was reading in a row and I knew I wouldn't get anything else from SA for 3-4 years . So in my mind its really important to have a "happy ending" or at least for the book to end at a comfortable place, as I know in my mind there will not be advancement for years yet. 

To those that feel dissappointed, or that the book was not as tight as usual, everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion. However I think the reason why it feels less smooth is because so much was happening. 

In WoK

Flashbacks: Kaladin had a happy childhood, then Roshone came, he went with the army, Tien dies, then he killed Helaran

Kaladin: Is a slave, carries bridges, inspires Bridge 4, gets ancient powers, saves Dalinar et al.

Shallan: Becomes a ward to Jasnah, learns some scholarship, steals soulcaster, soulcasts, gets poisoned, discovers KR returning

Dalinar: Is a bad politician, gets visions, almost gets his whole army killed, gives Blade for Kaladin and Bridge 4

Others: Szeth is insane and does what he is told, generally murdering lots of people. Adolin is a nice guy, concerned with his people and his family.

In WoR

Flashbacks: Shallan kills mother, father lies to all to cover it, house Davar collapses, Shallan tries to keep it propped up till she kills father

Kaladin: Is a bodyguard, has contact with Kholin family and is brought into their inner circle, Moash brings him in for the assasination, 4v1 duel, he agrees to help kill Elhokar, Syl dies, he is in the chasms, he revives Syl and saves Elhokar, he kills Szeth

Shallan: Jasnah dies leaving her alone, she makes her way to the SP, gains minor influence, enters GB, flirting with Adolin, chasms, shows herself to Dalinar, saves army by taking it to Urithiru

Dalinar: More visions, he gets plot to get Shards from other Alethi and generally brings a few alethi to heel, tries to make peace with listeners, takes army to war, destroys listeners, everstorm arrives, battle of Narak, he binds Stormfather

Others: Szeth is still killing people. Adolin fights duels getting Shards, and leads an important part of the battle of Narak, he kills Sadeas. Eshonai wants peace, but is turned into a Voidbringer and turns all listeners into Voidbringers. Lift is a KR with Nalan chasing her. T is introduced with Diagram on tow.

In OB

Flashbacks: Dalinar is a monster, warlord and killer. Kills, destroys and shatters lots and lots of people and places. Becomes engaged to Evi, almost kills Gavilar, has two children, shows the intense power of the Thrill, kills Evi and burns the Rift, goes to the Nightwatcher

Kaladin: Is a full fledged KR, visits Hearthstone, meets and befriends parsh, has some meetings in Urithiru showing his Windrunner status, goes to Kholinar, enters Wall Guard, leads assault on palace, fails and becomes blocked with having friends on both sides of the battle, watches Elhokar die, runs around Shadesmar, can't say 4th ideal despite knowing the words, has final battle with Fused and Amaram

Shallan: Has problems with her lies/personas, scares Midnight Mother, faces self-confidence problems with Jasnah back, infiltrates cult and has some failures in Kholinar, fails to get them to Urithiru, Shadesmar, lightweaves an entire army in Thaylen city, marries Adolin

(Wow, Kaladin and Shallan had a really bad book when you look at it)

Dalinar: uses his powers, tries diplomacy, has a clash with the church, has some skype chats with many people including Odium, gets coalition for humanity, coalition collapses thanks to Diagram, Odium tries to make him his champion, Dalinar Ascends 

Others: Szeth becomes a Skybreaker and swears himself to Dalinar, he has some bonding time with Nightblood. Adolin meets his Blade, does some Edgedancer-y stuff, fights on Thaylen battle picking up loose ends no-one else is paying attention to. Renarin bonded a corrupted spren. Jasnah almost kills Renarin, but stops, she fights in Thaylen battle, she finds Shallash and Taln, she becomes Queen of Alethkar. Lift brings Azish to coalition, helps Szeth steal gem to trap Thrill-Unmade. T swears himself to Odium in exchange of his city been spared. Venli bonds KR spren and turns slightly away from Odium. Bridge 4 are squires and some become KR. Moash sides with the Voidbringers, kills Elhokar and Jezrien.

 

Looking at it, it is no wonder Oathbringer was not as tight as the other two, to be it would have needed 500 more pages minimun . All in all, I was satisfied and I'm already finding hidden gems I hadn't noticed on first read.

Edited November 17, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Kairos]

1. Dalinar's new status will be confusing. I had the same reaction as the Stormfather(well, with a bit more exhilaration). Connecting the Realms though. Strange that there is a traveling Perpendicularity. That could have very useful implications, literally the easiest way ever to pop in and out of Shadesmar. Also, can he tell the Oathgate spren to let them through now?
2. That Larkin could be very useful. They really need to visit that island, the Aimians obviously had some interesting mysteries.
3. No shardplate. Rather disappointed there by Kaladin, but Dalinar is the one who really needs it.
4. NIGHTBLOOD! Bwahaha, finally back in action, and where he can do a lot of evil-destroying too.
5. Jezrien gets killed with probable hemalurgy. Wondering who gets the spike.
6. Shallan's personalities are...difficult. I get it, but they seem rather inconvenient, and I really want her to get over it. It seems like Brandon is using this series to really explore brokenness in people, and it's beginning to get excessive. 
7. Adolin has some good building, I like where he is now. I wasn't sure after the Sadeas murder, but he feels better now.
8. Vivenna is back, I really want to know about her new sword, and she should explain herself more.
9. People tended to go out of their way to obfuscate things. I'm on Harmony's page, explain clearly for once.
10. Rlain needed more, he just felt abandoned there.
11. Taln's joy was... really amazing. This is a real Herald. How he hasn't bonded a spren from somewhere yet beats me(unless avoiding it intentionally)
12. I was really hoping that Moash would take a page out of Kaladin's book, bond with the Parshmen that he was placed with, become a Radiant, bring them along. Oh how wrong I was.
13. Mraize has an Aether stain? That's intriguing.
14. What are the Dawnshards? We still don't know.
15. I agree with the oft-cited view that the reason behind the Recreasance was....weak. I don't see why that would break the KR.
16. Jasnah. She's so infuriating. Maybe useful, but so...Aes Sedai. I legitimately was happy in WoR when I thought she died.
17. The thing that hit me the hardest was the whole Rift finale. That was just so painful. Dalinar really did go through a lot to get where he is, it's incredible he worked through as well as he did.

[hypatia]

To the problem with history of Roshar:

We have also this WoB that the Herdazian and Horneater predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation.

Doesn't this mean there was human population on the planet before the Odium-newcomers came?

The Shin?

This would also explain what Honor was doing before the second wave - the Listener weren't of Honor but of Cultivation and without someone else he wouldn't have had a purpose.

Perhaps with the Eshonai book (RiP) we will get the more ancient history.

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

So just finished the book (this is a thread for reactions, right?) and all I can do is scream.

Dalinar is so much more the man than I thought he was prior. He has evolved, I felt his pain, and he is the closest thing to Honor since He died.

Moash is no more, if you read closely. He is Vyre now. Those hoping for redemption will find none, and I'm quite sure his POVs will change drastically. He has literally taken on a new persona. But there are quite a few things that need to be filled in, presumably by other characters' interactions. First, the blade. It is different... and I'm not sure how. The other things, I probably don't realize yet.

Vivenna made a new sword. They made a better Nightblood, one with more reservations and possibly more/less powerful. Recall that she is careful pulling it from its sheath while in Shadesmar, explaining that it needs to become familiar with the wielder. There definitely needs to be a Warbreaker sequel.

Chiri-Chiri!!!!!!!! I love this little thing. I picture it like a little greatshell dragon. And Rysn has grown. The Wandersail? I think we should expect some interesting adventures from these two in coming books.

Elhokar's son will be important... perhaps in Arc 2. I don't think he would be saved for no reason, the poor kid's parents both gone.

Teft, oh Teft. I love this man, I could feel his struggle. He deserved Knighthood.

On the topic of the Knights, LOPEN! Honestly, his spren will just be as naughty as he is.

Onto matters of heavier weight: Odium. I expected that Brandon would not just give us a one-dimensional villain, no no no. I did not expect for him to be so much of a challenge! He literally represents the flaw in the glorious idea that we had of Roshar, and his cords are so tight, it seems that it will take so much more than whats available to stop him. Taravangian... that was unexpected. To be a willing servant of Odium the whole time? I had supposed that the Diagram was a twisted means of defeating Odium, but it seems like it was the opposite. But we can see that Odium lacks detail: which is why he needs the Diagram. I feel this is just one clash of many to come, a chess match, best two-out-of-three. Perhaps Dalinar was able to recover some lost ground, but nearly the whole of Roshar lies in Odium's grasp, and the coalition is crippled. Perhaps they might need some off-world assisstance.

And I can say I was right about Shinovar, kind of. I knew that Shinovar was transplanted, in a sense it was. The local flora and fauna had been displaced by the immigrant humans, and this is why the Shin look most like the humans of the rest of the Cosmere. But on how they got there... the Dawnshards. I'm sure that this will be answered, like so many of the questions we had for Oathbringer.

As for our favorite protagonists, protagonist stuff. I thought it was interesting, to see all of them, but it got thrown around quite a bit. The less seen characters were better. I liked seen Renarin, and having a Sja-aran spren? Unexpected and full of possibilities! Jasnah, now monarch and with more knowledge than before, Navani, going to give me those FLYING SHIPS!!! Lift, doing awesome things. Szeth. So... rigid. The problem is, we don't see enough of his true transformation I feel, what happened before he became the Assassin in White. He was forced into become a Skybreaker, pounded into the mold. He trained with all ten of the Surges, and trained with the Honorblades back in Shinovar. Stones Unhallowed will bring me answers.

[Aleksiel]

22 minutes ago, hypatia said:

To the problem with history of Roshar:

We have also this WoB that the Herdazian and Horneater predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation.

Doesn't this mean there was human population on the planet before the Odium-newcomers came?

The Shin?

This would also explain what Honor was doing before the second wave - the Listener weren't of Honor but of Cultivation and without someone else he wouldn't have had a purpose.

Perhaps with the Eshonai book (RiP) we will get the more ancient history.

Hmm, I'm not so sure. Here's what you are referring to:

 

Quote

 

HorseCannon

I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

Blightsong

*via private message*

Some of us believe that you are saying that humans and listeners existed pre-Shattering while some of us believe that you are saying that Horneaters and Herdazians existed pre-Shattering (you have mentioned that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering recently). What were you trying to say here?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen.

 

Footnote: Blightsong's parenthetical statement is mistaken; there is no source claiming that humans had been on Roshar since before the Shattering.

 

 

Side note: It's so nice to be able to find a WoB easily and from the first try, thank you all who created Arcanum, you guys are amazing!

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Gonna go through and read everything that I've missed over the next couple days, but for now, all have to say is this:

"I emerge from my coma, a heavy book in my hands, and I know that I have read true glory."

[DiamondMind]

I haven't read all the reactions up to now, but does anyone understand why Mr. T decided to switch to Odium's side at the end of the book? I thought he just wanted to discredit Dalinar and take up the resistance himself. But not only does he leave, he opens an Oathgate for the Voidbringers and attacks Bridge 4 to steal the Honorblade. Then he meets with Odium and decides to capitulate completely? It doesn't seem to make any sense.

[aemetha]

It was always Mr T's plan to join Odium. He sought to unite as much of the world under his control, and then negotiate with Odium from a position of strength. Odium wasn't having any of that though, and Mr T ended up with significantly less than he had hoped for.

[DiamondMind]

38 minutes ago, aemetha said:

It was always Mr T's plan to join Odium

I don't remember that at all. My impression from his chapters was that he wants to unite the world to oppose Odium. I'll have to go back.

[TenthPancake]

On 11/14/2017 at 2:01 AM, Pattern said:

It is possible for the KR to become helpful for both races, we already see Venli bonding a Radiant spren, a thing not possible in the past. On the other hand, Renarin has accidentally bonded a corrupted spren (Sja-anat) but he is far from hateful. Renarin is the wildcard, Odium cannot see.

Is Venli's sprena radiant spren or a sja - anat one?

[Hawkido]

On 11/14/2017 at 2:52 PM, SLNC said:

That is how I understood it. The spren (being of Honor and Cultivation) chose to bond with the humans, and the listeners then turned to Odium. It is also said that Honor apparently loved humankind... So there probably was some kind of worship going on.

I believe Dalanar made a statement to the point that without choice there cannot be honor... that I feel is why Honor favored the Humans over the Parshendi, the Parshendi seem to have very little choice when it comes to spren.  Also somehow Cultivation had a hand in making the Parshendi, I feel she changed them to be the trap for Odium, perhaps that is why they became less favored to Honor, so easy for them to bind him to the system by inherently bonding to his power.  Remember the Parasaphni story from the end of Way of Kings, sounds alot like Cultivation creating/recreating peoples. but I am full of crack brained ideas so laugh at them if you wanna.