[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[Kurkistan]

My contributions, cribbed from my "see I totally got that pretty fast" notes and other random impressions:

• From the Dalinar flashbacks: Ah ye-olde anti-Shardbearer weaponry. Brings back the good old days. Nets/ropes and whatnot attached to projectiles didn't occur to us, IIRC.
• Mraize's chicken: If that's not an aviar... Well okay it's just an aviar. Let's all accept that.
• Shallan is not in a good place. [This general sentiment basically persists from me through the entire book]
• Heraldic symoblism seemed a bit scattershot this time. Usually I can parse the chapter header symbols pretty well, but here it seemed like there was a lot of "well everyone's being Dependable/Resourcful, so let's slap Taln's face up there"
• I'm calling it that the strange glass panes and the discs in the floor/ceiling in chapter 24 are for video conferencing and mini-oathgating, respectively.
• Chapter 38 (the Last Desolation vision): Okay maybe too much of an infodump.
• I'm surprised we never had to have an awkward conversations with the Thaylens about the Passions and how Odium & Co. are also all about the Passions...

--

One thing I'm unclear on is if Dalinar's ever actually gotten these glimpses of the God Beyond(?), or if it was all just Odium being Odious. At the end there it was implied he was still getting those impressions and it was a good thing, but until then I'd just assumed it was Odium seeping in after the first time he broke into a Stormfather vision, given Dalinar's initial reaction.

--

• 64: "The Stormfather hates to be misquoted." - Good line.
• 67: Investiture-detecting jar: Sand from Taldain?
• 77: Yes hello Sleepless cremling. You're looking obvious today.
• 79: Oh hi Vivenna. Thought we'd have to work harder to spot you.

--

• Kaladin's BSOD during the fight in the palace was... ill-timed. Guessing here that the 4th Ideal is something to the effect of "I'll protect only those I can", backed up by the one epigraph quote from a Windrunner.
• I've a mini-theory that the Everstorm was partially empowered/guided by the Fused who haven't been embodied yet, and that they guide the lighting etc. strategically if they want to. So it's getting less nasty as more Fused take over bodies.
• Didn't see any of the Renarin suspicion from Jasnah coming, at all. The spren appearance research, the whole spiel about internal threats to dynasties, etc. None of it registered as relevant to Ren until Shallan was half a second from shanking him and the text was kind enough to spell it out for me.
• Stormfather’s interaction with Lopen at the end were amusing.
• Also Cultivation was the unexpected badchull there, outplaying Odium like a boss. MVP.

---------

All in all I liked the book well enough. I'll need some digestion and a re-read to really settle on an opinion.

Glancing through this thread there's some consternation over the love triangle. Honestly I saw it as a non-entity even from back in WoR, and didn't take Shallodin seriously as an option. I'd have been shocked if it ever actually became a thing, so there was never much tension from it for me, more just something that spoke to Shallan's/Kaladin's state of mind.

The crossover/fan-aimed stuff did perhaps get a bit extreme. I'm too deep in all of this to appreciate an outsider's perspective, but I'd likely have been hella'-confused by a lot of the Shadesmar stuff, the Realmatic Capitalized Things being mentioned left right and center, etc. Some of the more minor stuff would also be weird from an outside perspective, I think. Specifically:

• The Diagramists knowing to look for the secret that broke the KR. We knew that because that one diagram entry got decrypted, but the way it was mentioned in-book a few hundred pages before the reveal seemed a bit opaque/out of nowhere
• Navani's painrial taser. Don't read Alethi women's script? Well I guess that scene where Navani super-tases everyone will be particularly surprising to you.

Again, I can't judge what effect this might have on immersion, suspension of disbelief, etc. for a less obsessive reader than I.

Edit: Removed an inaccurate quote/comment  

 

[Musica]

This will be a long post.. sorry. 

The book left me strangely... unfulfilled? I found that often with fantasy books with multiple POVs, I'll get this feeling like not matter how much happens, it's never quite enough to be satisfying. Also, not NEARLY enough interaction between our main cast for my taste, whether in small groups or (especially) all together. 

The reveal about the Recreance was rather underwhelming as well.

 

Just to be clear- I loved the book. I really did. But not as much as WoR, and not necessarily more than WoK. 

I agree with what people said about Kal's 4th Ideal- as much as I adore those epic moments, it was good for Kal to feel that, for once, someone else did the saving, and not only that, HE was the one being saved. On the other hand, I felt there was a lot of build up for him that just kind of fizzled into.. nothing, really. That was disappointing. 

About Teft- from the way I understood it, he said the third ideal on-screen (since it was a slightly different version of Kal's, plus you get squires on the third one). When did he say the second, then? 

 

Am I the only one who didn't actually like the somewhat-artifical way some squires became Radiants? It felt like cheating. Follow a Radiant for enough time, say the first two Ideals he tells you, wish hard enough, and just find your version of the third Ideal, and there you have your Instant Radiant Recipe. 

It felt almost like cheating, after everythig our main cast went through to discover the Ideals on their own.. especially for the Skybreakers and Windrunners (I didn't mind the squire-becoming process, just the squire-to-Radiant one). I very much liked Shallan getting her own squire, though:)

 

Elhokar! Just when I was coming to like you and think I might not be too annoyed that you showed signs of becoming a Radiant too (too many Kholin Radiants! Please done make Adolin into one, too!), you go and get yourself killed. It was really emotionally painful yet gratifying moment..

 

Storm you to Damnation and back, Moash! I seriously hate you right now. Until that moment, I thought he still had a shot at redemption, but not anymore. 

Btw, I was really looking forward to Kal's resolution regarding Elhokar's request ("be extraordinary, captain") and was really disappointed not to get it. Hoping for this to come up and be resolved in book 4. 

 

I adored the interactions between Adolin and Kaladin in Shadesmar. Adolin was such a sweetheart, and Kal broke my heart. Syl, of course, was one of the best parts, and I wish she'd gotten more screen time. 

The whole Shadesmar part was really interesting, yet didn't feel like it had any real impact on everything happening beyond separating the characters. Hope it will play a bigger part in the next books. 

 

Shallan and Adolin. I don't mind their relationship, but it's resolution felt way too abrupt and unsatisfying. I was hoping for a more concrete.. SOMETHING. Dunno. For both Shalladin and Shadolin ships' sake. 

Jasnah and Renarin. I adored that scene towards the end! Just wish we'd had more of you. 

 

Dalinar's story was the most satisfying one by far, as should be, I suppose, since it IS his book.  Love his interactions with Odium, the Stormfather, Cultivation and the Thrill Unmade (forgot the name). He truly shines here, and the transformation he went through from his youth all the way to present day is nothing short of amazing.

 

Amaram. I wish someone would bring you back just so someone would kill you again. Repeatedly. (Just kidding. Please stay dead).

 

I feel like we should have gotten some more scenes showing characters' reaction to Szeth's revival and apparent change of heart. It's so weird how everyone just accepted everything.

Hello Vivenna, Nightblood and Hoid. But where is Vasher?

 

What's up with the Ghostblood?? What's their game?

 

Taln, you precious man. Your short moment of lucidity made me cry. He and Ash were clearly a thing in the past, or at least extremely close, and the fact he didn't blame her or saw her (and the other Heralds') abandonment as betrayal.. I can't. 

And I can't believe Jezrien is dead just like that! What was the sword made of? How did the Fused know who he was? Was it Odium who found him?

 

That moment in the end, where we discover Skar and Drehy are alive, and not only that, but they managed to get Elhokar's child and some others out of Kohlinar and to safety... ("we protect those who cannot protect themselves")... I cried. For real. 

 

Hoid saving Elhokar's almost-bonded Cryptic was sweet:)

 

Theory Time-

Don't know if someone covered it, but could the humans on Roshar have gotten there from the third planet in the system? We know we have Roshar, Braize (Damnation, where Odium is imprisoned) and a third planet, that people theorized is where the Tranquiline Halls are located. What if Vorin lore is actually based on the humans' desire to return to their home world? And how exactly did Surgebinding destroy it??

 

Time for a re-read. And then the long wait for book 4...

Edited November 17, 2017 by Musica

[lexoj]

21 minutes ago, Kurkistan said:

On 11/16/2017 at 1:30 PM, lordofsoup said:

Now that [Hoid]  is a [Elsecaller].  Does this mean that he no longer needs to ride perpendicularities to access the Cognitive realm?  

 

Hoid rescued a Cryptic NOT an Inkspren, which gives access to Transformation and Illumination. He has Lightweaver abilities not Elsecaller.

[Kurkistan]

3 minutes ago, lexoj said:

Hoid rescued a Cryptic NOT an Inkspren, which gives access to Transformation and Illumination. He has Lightweaver abilities not Elsecaller.

Very true. Thanks for the catch.

[WhiteLeeopard]

6 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Anyone else think that the diagram might have been made in such a brilliant way that it's goal is to intentionally fail and help our radiants? it's actually done that a fair few times so far with Kaladin progressing due to it, and seemingly brilliant T left a hidden message that Odium can't see.

I have always expected the worst out of the Diagram and they have happily delivered. Maybe you are right, I seldom fully discard anything, but the Diagram always felt like bad news all around. Before OB the nicest I was willing to think of the Diagram was that they didn't know their endgame. If they knew their endgame I was fairly sure it was capitulating to Odium. And voila.

4 hours ago, KnightGradient said:

After digesting the book for the past 24 hours, I can safely say it was awesome. But disturbing.

Was nobody else deeply disturbed by Odium Passion? I expected some conniving, backstabbing SOB, who would twist your words and destroy worlds. Instead, he actually seemed to care. Every time Dalinar said "Choose your fighter! One duel for all of Roshar!" Odium would back away, and ask "Are you sure? Do you understand what you are asking?" I don't think that's just how Shards are. Ruin or Autonomy would probably have capitalized on those words, and immediately overpowered Dalinar. 

I was disturbed by Odium, and he is clearly a complex character, but thats not surprising, few villains here are simple. I don't think he cares though, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. He could just have been savoring Dalinar doing what Odium wanted him to.

4 hours ago, KnightGradient said:

Moreover, the parsh have it rough. We were promised Voidbringers, and instead got people. Angry people. Angry and right people. Humanity invaded their world, spat on the kindness the Singers offered, and stole their Gods. Then, humans engaged in bloody wars, eventually removed a fundamental part of their existence, made them idiots, and enslaved them.

I agree the parsh have it rough, but for different reasons. They have it rough because first they were enslaved by humans for millenia, and when they woke up it was just to be used by their ancestors as cannon fodder in their war of millenia ago. The harsh truth I got is that the Fused care nothing for the parsh. They just care about their war, and the parsh are the peons they will use in it. Talk about ancient grudges preventing a race from truly living life.

4 hours ago, KnightGradient said:

I'm probably in the minority, but Moash was right. Humans don't deserve Roshar anymore.

Maybe I need to reread Oathbringer, but I think we're seeing the perspective of the bad guys. Guess I understand the Recreance now.

Why? What determines who deserves to live? Is living a right you must earn? Do you honestly believe because your ancestors did something bad you deserve to be punished? So...if you descend from a murderer are you cursed forever no matter what you do?

Humans were the bad guys once. So what? Who hasn't been the bad guys at some point? And more importantly, does it matter? The only way that humans don't deserve Roshar is if they don't fight for it. A peaceful resolution would be ideal, but ultimately, humans will defend themselves and their families, and I will not be convinced that is wrong. Because there is nothing wrong with wanting to live, and wanting your children to live. Everyone in Roshar, parsh and humans both just want to live, and quite simply none of them is wrong to want that.

2 hours ago, Shadowmancer said:

Lastly, I think we finally saw Hemalurgy used outside of Scadrial. No wonder even Vessels have been scared Witless over it.

Where? I missed some things ^^. 

 

[Gloom Spren]

On 11/15/2017 at 0:50 AM, Stormbless said:

Im thinking maybe Kaladin x Jasnah would be an ideal match??

I've been shipping Jasnah x Taln since she read his quotes and Dalinar's flashback mentioning her lunacy.  She's got a soft spot for mental illness, I would bet on it.

 

Can't wait to hear about young crazy Jasnah. What happened?!

[Leyrann]

5 hours ago, KnightGradient said:

After digesting the book for the past 24 hours, I can safely say it was awesome. But disturbing.

Was nobody else deeply disturbed by Odium Passion? I expected some conniving, backstabbing SOB, who would twist your words and destroy worlds. Instead, he actually seemed to care. Every time Dalinar said "Choose your fighter! One duel for all of Roshar!" Odium would back away, and ask "Are you sure? Do you understand what you are asking?" I don't think that's just how Shards are. Ruin or Autonomy would probably have capitalized on those words, and immediately overpowered Dalinar. 

Moreover, the parsh have it rough. We were promised Voidbringers, and instead got people. Angry people. Angry and right people. Humanity invaded their world, spat on the kindness the Singers offered, and stole their Gods. Then, humans engaged in bloody wars, eventually removed a fundamental part of their existence, made them idiots, and enslaved them. I'm probably in the minority, but Moash was right. Humans don't deserve Roshar anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I love them good guys. The Knights Radiant were amazing here, and the Battle of Thaylen Field was phenomenal, but I have to side with Passion. Rayse's quest to kill the Shards makes sense now; all they do is meddle and interfere. Without the Shard's, the Cosmere would probably be a lot more peaceful, and more prosperous too. Elantris is proof of this. Even with both Shards dead, their world is the most advanced, and while divided, it seems like they've united since we last were on Sel.

Maybe I need to reread Oathbringer, but I think we're seeing the perspective of the bad guys. Guess I understand the Recreance now.

The mark of a truly great book is that people disagree on who the good guys are... Well done Brandon Sanderson.

33 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Where? I missed some things ^^. 

The blade that killed Jezrien.

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

The mark of a truly great book is that people disagree on who the good guys are... Well done Brandon Sanderson.

The blade that killed Jezrien.

OMG, that seems so obvious now. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard
Sadly I'm out of upvotes

[frozndevl]

30 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

OMG, that seems so obvious now. 

Okay, what's so obvious about it? There's no transfer of power. To me it seems more like the blinding knife.

Well, the black smoke leaking to me suggests that it shares similarities with an awakened blade.

[WhiteLeeopard]

7 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Okay, what's so obvious about it? There's no transfer of power. To me it seems more like the blinding knife.

Well, the black smoke leaking to me suggests that it shares similarities with an awakened blade.

Brandon said Hemalurgy was made to work everywhere in the Cosmere. Makes sense that to absorb a cognitive shadow like a Herald (basically a piece of investure) you would just use a spike to absorb the investure instead of a powerful one-of-a kind weapon. Easier, and more dangerous. 

Specially dangerous when you understand Jezrien's investure is in a spike that could be transferred to someone now. And that any old spike of the right material will do to kill Heralds, you don't even need a unique weapon to destroy the Oathpact.

[Wotsummary]

So a quick couple of thoughts I haven’t seen here....

The Painrial seems like it might have helped Dalinar survive. He puts it on - and then starts remembering things. It’s destroyed at the start of the confrontation with odium. Seems too convenient to be anything else. 

 

Rock pulled back a storming shardbow. Everyone else we’ve seen do that needed to be wearing plate. 

[Aleksiel]

It was a good book, but I can’t say I liked it as much as the previous two. There were too many different PoVs, which was distracting. So much happened and so much information was dumped that there wasn’t much time to explore the emotions and inner world of the cast, which was something I enjoyed very much in WoK and WoR. Too many different PoVs, I liked them individually speaking, but I feel it was too much for an already complicated book with a large cast, not enough time for everybody.

I see I’m not the only one who was kind of underwhelmed by the secret that broke the Radiants. How many millennia until someone counts as native, seriously? Well, I’m not surprised some people are actually fighting FOR Odium (I hate you, Moash, I hope Adolin stabs you in the eye, too), I bet if our world was invaded by aliens there would be idiots helping them, too. 

However I think KR were more worried about destroying Roshar with their powers, which is why they killed their spren so no one could bond them. But surgebinding became possible on Roshar, humans could have only used voidbinding in their original planet, so there should be more to this. Also, if Ishi created the Oathpact, he must have already had an Honorblade and why would someone so keen on oaths like Honor not want an oathpact first? I feel there’s something missing here, too.

I was annoyed how Nale switched to the enemy, he must have known humans didn’t originate from Roshar. I realize he’s getting worse, but come on… Yet he’ll still train Szeth  OK…

I like how the alethi slowly learn to respect other cultures. Dalinar’s instant language hack was interesting, I wonder what else he could do. His Ascension is something I need to reread, because I didn’t quite get how he managed to take a piece of Honor. I wonder how this changes his powers?

Kal couldn’t say the next oath, but that was alright. I wonder if SB ideal quest is mirrored by other orders?

Elhokar dying before actually succeeding at anything was disappointing. Especially after it was confirmed he had attracted a Cryptic. Why didn’t Dalinar lend him Jezrien’s honorblade like he initially thought? Elhokar would have had weeks to practice like the squires did.

The have-you-seen-me guy Szeth met is now confirmed Jezrien. And.. dead. So dead. What was that knife and why can’t the fused use it?

I almost feel bad for Shalladin shippers.

One of the unmade wanting to switch sides is interesting. Still no idea what on Roshar the GB want.

Wow, Kal did buy Syl a sprenhat like Lopen suggested 

Adolin is so reviving Maya next book 

Taln being glad humanity had millennia to progress  – oh, Taln… Humanity doesn’t deserve you. 

Journey before pancakes – I can see a future conflict between Lopen and Lift here 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Steeldancer]

13 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The skybreakers are odd. They make sense usually, but an odd sense. I honestly believe that they will continue visiting and training Szeth even if they are on different sides, and they won't do it with any ulterior motive. Just see each other as fellow skybreakers following their Oaths and respect each other for it. Szeth is probably the character closest to Honor in all SA. I don't think he has ever broken an Oath. Not even the silly or hard ones. 

Szeth's fate is right now fully on Dalinar's hands. Szeth can't bear to be on the driver seat of his life so has passed the wheel to Dalinar. Whether he drives him to Honor, Odium, Cultivation, redemption or something else will depend on Dalinar more than anyone/anything else. No pressure there . Sigh, their chat is probably the most missed thing for me in OB. 

Dude... Taln? Way more honorable- and GOOD- than Szeth. Nothing against Szeth. But seriously.  

[StormyQueen]

Well, that was certainly one hell of a ride. 40 hours (yes, including sleep) and 7 cups of tea later, and I'm finished. Don't think I'll do that for the next book though, as I have less of an idea what happened at the end in the avalanche.

Maybe it was for that reason that I found the avalanche somewhat underwhelming? I don't know, I just felt like there wasn't enough major plot twists concerning the assumptions we make throughout the story, and that it ended to nicely? I was expecting more dead people, but pretty much everybody made it through, and that kind of felt weird? Then again, this is possibly the result of reading for pretty much 2 days without doing much else, so, take it with a grain of salt

Anyway, favourite bits:

-Jasnah. Yes. So much Jasnah. Very good. 10/10. Now also Queen in more ways than one. I found the references to her so-called 'lunacy' interesting, and I look forwards to seeing if it was actually lunacy was actual lunacy or something else with the easy label stuck on (she isn't afraid of being controversial after all...)

-The Girl Who Looked Up and Shallan + Hoid storytelling. This was particularly touching for me, as Shallan's experiences with her past and the way she deals with it (badly) are resonant with my own experiences. I was crying when Hoid was consoling Shallan, it just felt like such a touching and personal moment.

-Spren cities! I just wish we got to see a bit more of these! It looks sooooo interesting! 

-Dalinar's flashbacks. Not quite sure what I think of him now... In a good way that is.

-Kaladin's breakdown in Kholinar. This just felt like it was brimming with character. Tragic, but well written. (But please don't hurt him anymore Brandon)

-Elkohar's character development. But then he just had to die.... (damnation it Sanderson)

-Queen Fen. I really hope we'll see more of her in future.

-Rock being group mum with everybody coming to him for advice.

-Trashy Rosharan Romance (Wema and Sterling all the way  )

[WhiteLeeopard]

8 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Dude... Taln? Way more honorable- and GOOD- than Szeth. Nothing against Szeth. But seriously.  

I did think of Taln while writing that post. However I wrote it anyway, because I think Taln is the strongest and the best person in all of SA but as we've discussed before strength and good do not equal honor. They may be compliments, but not necesary. In its purest essence, with no additions or intentions Szeth is probably the closest to Honor around. Taln is just the closest being to a perfect human (or so it seems so far) .

[the winter system]

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Brandon said Hemalurgy was made to work everywhere in the Cosmere. Makes sense that to absorb a cognitive shadow like a Herald (basically a piece of investure) you would just use a spike to absorb the investure instead of a powerful one-of-a kind weapon. Easier, and more dangerous. 

Specially dangerous when you understand Jezrien's investure is in a spike that could be transferred to someone now. And that any old spike of the right material will do to kill Heralds, you don't even need a unique weapon to destroy the Oathpact.

But What's GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE SPIKE

[WhiteLeeopard]

Just now, winter devotion said:

But What's GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE SPIKE

We'd need to know the innate powers of the Heralds to know how much we need to frick out....Holy chull. 

I just realized something. If you spike someone with Jezrien's spike would that person be added to the Oathpact?? The implications are mindboggling. The simplest is that if by some reason the Desolation ends and they use a Herald on Damnation to plug the Voidbringers in, that newly hacked person could just go to Damnation and yield allowing the Desolation to restart. Thats the easiest one. The other possible implications may be horrifrying to imagine.

[Islington]

6 hours ago, Seonid said:

Which Cosmere stuff in particular bothered you?

Mostly Vivenna and her Ginsu. Kaladin investigating her and her being like "Yeah I'm from Nalthis and have a magic color eating sword" was just a shade too front and center for me. Zahel had the perfect amount of screen time and references for me. 

[Blacksmithki]

16 minutes ago, Islington said:

Mostly Vivenna and her Ginsu. Kaladin investigating her and her being like "Yeah I'm from Nalthis and have a magic color eating sword" was just a shade too front and center for me. Zahel had the perfect amount of screen time and references for me. 

The difference here is mostly that Brandon had always intended those characters to be a part of stormlight archives and mostly made warbreaker as a way to introduce them. Even if you look back at WoK Prime, Zahel is more or less the same character he is here, minus a few colour metaphors. I don't mind if characters he has always intended to be a big part of the series have larger parts, you really don't need to have read warbreaker to understand them, it just is nice i find.

[Islington]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

The difference here is mostly that Brandon had always intended those characters to be a part of stormlight archives and mostly made warbreaker as a way to introduce them. Even if you look back at WoK Prime, Zahel is more or less the same character he is here, minus a few colour metaphors. I don't mind if characters he has always intended to be a big part of the series have larger parts, you really don't need to have read warbreaker to understand them, it just is nice i find.

I disagree. She defies all in world explanation and sticks out like a sore thumb. It's like when Doctor Strange shows up in Thor. Hes against the...aesthetic so much he opens a million questions when he shows up. 

 

Like I said, I trust Brandon. It didn't sour the book for me or anything, but it did stick out. 

[flying_shadow]

I loved how at the end, Lopen shows the one-armed man some tricks to make living with only one arm easier. 

[Jaconis]

Firstly, blown away by the book.

Secondly, my initial thoughts were a bit of disappointment, but mostly because one of the biggest reveals I was wanting in this book we didn’t get, which was: HOW IN THE WORLD IS SHARDPLATE MADE?!?!?!? We were about to find out and it got ripped from us. I think we got pretty strong hints it’s the cousin spren, with them appearing around Kaladin in shadesmar when they don’t normally come there, but I wanted hard facts storm it!

In all seriousness, amazing book. The more I think I about it, I may actually like it more than WoR, but at worst it’s equal.

On Adolin and Sadeas’ murder: yes, there was not much in terms of punishment for him...yet. I think that’s coming next book. Dalinar won’t keep it secret, as he learned secrets are what almost ruined everything. I’m not sure how people can say it didn’t get much attention though. It was literally Odium’s trump card in the final battle. Well, his second trump card, as making Dalinar his champion was his primary. Adolin thought about it when we got a POV from him, which wasn’t super often. All in all, it was addressed, but not finished. A fine state for a plot line in book 3 of 10. 

On Renarin: Eating crow about my belief that there wasn’t anything fishy about his spren. I began to realize I was wrong as soon as Wit told Shallan not to trust anyone who can see the future. Though, I’m still not of the belief that everyone who can see the future at all is of Odium. Clearly Cultivation can as well, and better than Odium, as she ruined his millennia long plan completely by giving Dalinar his memories back and preparing him for his confrontation. Renarin doesn’t seem to be bad though...that’s an open thread still. Also, is his spren a corrupted Truthwatcher spren, or some other spren entirely?

On Dalinar’s Spiritual Adhesion: Firstly want to point out how clever Sanderson has been with his book releases in general. This wouldn’t have made near as much sense, and couldn’t had been done as it was, if 

Spoiler

Bands of Mourning hadn’t gone through how this works first.

Also, opens the door for all sorts of possibilities for the other orders, and partially supports a theory of mine regarding Kaladin and Shallan specifically. People spiritually gravitate (gravity) to Kaladin, and are exceptionally loyal (adhesion). Shallan spiritually transforms people. Haven’t thought about the others much, but seems we might be able to extrapolate. 

On Nalan: as others have said, he is even more coocoo for ChocoPuffs than we originally thought. His logic to side with Odium is insane. I wonder how many of the Skybreakers will go with him. While talking about the Skybreakers though, I wonder if the other orders talked about their Ideals’ contents so openly, or if that was strictly a Skybreaker thing. Also, Nalan says Ishar’s mind was the most stable...doesn’t bode well for the rest of the Heralds.

On Kaladin’s struggle with his Fourth Ideal: I guess I see why it had to happen, but I personally didn’t like it. It sort of felt to me like it was only there for the reason people seem to like it, to avoid Kaladin being the savior each time. I fully realize that may be my bias, as I am Kaladin fan. Though, it seems that this Ideal is tough for all Windrunners, based on the one epigraph. That said, perfectly fine with Dalinar being the savior this time, and if possible done in an even more gut wrenching way than Kaladin’s Big Moments. 

There are so so many other things, but I’ll have to get to them after a reread where I can quote better. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Jaconis

[Sherkaner Underhill]

25 minutes ago, Jaconis said:

There are so so many other things, but I’ll have to get to them after a reread where I can quote better. 

Bother.

[the winter system]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

We'd need to know the innate powers of the Heralds to know how much we need to frick out....Holy chull. 

I just realized something. If you spike someone with Jezrien's spike would that person be added to the Oathpact?? The implications are mindboggling. The simplest is that if by some reason the Desolation ends and they use a Herald on Damnation to plug the Voidbringers in, that newly hacked person could just go to Damnation and yield allowing the Desolation to restart. Thats the easiest one. The other possible implications may be horrifrying to imagine.

oh frick. i mean. near infinite desolation at best.

[WhiteLeeopard]

14 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

oh frick. i mean. near infinite desolation at best.

I found this thread soon after posting that, quite nice chat there. First page talks of Heralds. Second page about possible consequences of Jezrien dead and spiked.