[OB] The Wicked Thing of Eminence, Oathbreaking, and the Last Legion: A Theory in Three Parts

[The One Who Connects]

@Fifth of Daybreak The Op Post:

• You posit that the event that sparked the Recreance was the creation of the Parshmen, enslaving an entire people. This is a reasonable enough base to build from. With a passable premise, it's on to the details.
• I shall point out that Slaveform and Dullform are not the same thing. Dullform is a bond with any Spren that does not give a unique form. Slaveform is the lack of a bond, and apparently the inability to bond at all.
• You posit that the Shattering of the Plains coincided with an attack by the KR to destroy the last of the Voidbringer Parshendi. Conceptually, I can buy into that. However, you imply this in connection to the Recreance. There are two whole millennia between Aharietiam and the Recreance, and I don't think the KR would still be fighting Voidbringers all that time, especially if the Heralds "we won" proclamation was to be believed.
• You posit that the Last Legion are the ones who attacked the KR after the Recreance. I am fairly certain that something within the timeline of myriad events does not allow this, but I've having trouble pinning down what. I think the Last Legion only escaped the Parshmen Fate thanks to being in Dullform already(perhaps being bonded to the "wrong Spren" counts as not being in a Form? Something had to make them different so they didn't get caught in the change like the rest of the Parshendi)
• Additionally, the Last Legion were a collection of warring tribes for quite some time before moving to the Shattered Plains. Just extra timeline details, doesn't really shoot down any of your theory on it's own.

On 11/11/2017 at 1:08 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Perhaps a simpler explanation is that the order that survived is the one order that would've been accepting of this action as not breaking their oaths. With the Radiants that we've met and know well, I just personally have a hard time reconciling them being ok with condemning an entire race to slavery and loss of conscious thought to win a war against supernatural forces that can essentially possess their bodies and minds.

You'd be surprised. I'm at about 2.5-4.5 out of the 6 we currently know about.

• Windrunners probably wouldn't like it, but I can see a way to make it work. (I doubt all of them saw it this way, but a few might.)
• If such an action were legal, the Skybreakers would be okay with it.
• Dustbringers are an unknown, Elsecallers probably wouldn't like it, Truthwatchers are an unknown.
• If they could reconcile such an action within themself, a Lightweaver would be okay with it.
• If such an action were the logical choice, a good amount of Elsecallers could be okay with it, as their Spren like logical actions.
  • (Makes me curious if the bond would break when the Radiant thinks an oath was broken but the Spren doesn't)
• Willshapers are an unknown, but as the most varied Order, they could be divided on the subject.
• Stonewards are unknown, but I'm leaning towards not liking it.
• I'd think Bondsmiths probably wouldn't be okay with it, but if this was their idea....

On 11/11/2017 at 1:08 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Another order might consider a preemptive strike on the pre-shattered plains a violation.

Per the In-World WoR: "As the fighting was particularly intense at this time, .." I think some kind of war was going on, so attacking Stormseat may have been fair game. Shattering the Plains themselves was probably excessive, but something had to justify that level of force. If you can justify using excessive force, the attack must have been justified too.

Ooh, here's a thought. An Order that would consider a preemptive strike as violating their oaths doesn't have to participate in it. So long as they don't carry out the action, they shouldn't break their oath. Does that sound reasonable?

On 11/11/2017 at 3:32 PM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This is only reinforced by what we see in edgedancer with Nalan. One of the initiates also mentions being the only order.

Yet another quote from Edgedancer that everyone puts so much more weight into than it really merits. If Nalan "reformed" them from budding Proto-KR, then they'd be the only order currently running. Additionally, you remember that the Recreance was roughly 2,000 or so years ago right? I seriously doubt that whichever Order stayed behind would still be running, let alone in secret for all those years. The risk of being discovered is rather high, and the Spren weren't exactly in the mood to bond more KR, so the Order that survived the Recreance would have died of old age centuries ago.

---

On 11/11/2017 at 9:17 AM, Naerin said:

If the wicked thing was an action taken by the former Knights Radiant, there is no logical reason why this would destroy the new orders as well. It would be like learning that a distant ancestor had committed some unforgivable atrocities. It would suck, and probably be very demoralizing, but I don't see how it could possibly "destroy" the new order. It seems to me that the secret needs to be something that would still be relevant, that would apply equally to the new order. This implies that the secret must be something about the nature of the Knights Radiant themselves, something about their powers or their bond.

I agree with most of this. Something the KR of Old did is insufficient. Take slavery or sexism in the real world. The Founding Fathers owned slaves, but does that irreparably mar our opinion of them? In most cases, no. They fought in the Revolution and helped form the United States, and we let that good outweigh the bad of owning slaves. The KR of Old fought in the Desolations. They did a lot of good. Learning that they did a bad thing too might not be enough. If committing that bad action was also why they disbanded, your opinion of them might actually be elevated a little, as they were strong enough to step down after committing an atrocity, rather than play at still being "good people."

I disagree that it has to equally apply to the current orders. The situation is vastly different now than it was then. It still has to be enough to make a majority of them reconsider, but it might not be enough to make them give up in the wake of the Everstorm. A couple years earlier, maybe.. but now?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

9 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

You posit that the Shattering of the Plains coincided with an attack by the KR to destroy the last of the Voidbringer Parshendi. Conceptually, I can buy into that. However, you imply this in connection to the Recreance. There are two whole millennia between Aharietiam and the Recreance, and I don't think the KR would still be fighting Voidbringers all that time, especially if the Heralds "we won" proclamation was to be believed.

Interesting. I guess I'm very confused as to who they would have been fighting then, or why they would be needed. In Starfalls, the officer references 'the devils on the front lines."  Perhaps the victory at Aharietiam is the closing of the bridge he Nalan has referenced, and the fighting thereafter is the destruction of remaining forces? I'm curious for your take on this quote, the pronoun usage is unclear: Is he saying that he's found remnants of listeners who can use the old forms hiding and they were able to summon voidspren from outside, or that the listeners were able to summon a cluster of voidspren because the Voidspren were able to hide on Roshar given the precedent that Nalan has found Voidspren hiding before? It seems a very important distinction which 'them' he's found remnants of hiding before. 

Quote

"What you saw are a few listeners who remain from the old days, ones free to use the old forms. They summoned a cluster of Voidspren. We’ve found remnants of them on Roshar before, hiding.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Arcanum Unbounded: The Cosmere Collection (p. 596). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

You posit that the Last Legion are the ones who attacked the KR after the Recreance. I am fairly certain that something within the timeline of myriad events does not allow this, but I've having trouble pinning down what. I think the Last Legion only escaped the Parshmen Fate thanks to being in Dullform already(perhaps being bonded to the "wrong Spren" counts as not being in a Form? Something had to make them different so they didn't get caught in the change like the rest of the Parshendi)

I think Eshonai's mother quoting the old song actually accounts for this. I quoted it in my first post, but I'll requote the relevant part. 

Quote

“The Last Legion, that was our name then. Warriors who had been set to fight in the farthest plains, this place that had once been a nation and was now rubble. Dead was the freedom of most people. The forms, unknown, were forced upon us. Forms of power, yes, but also forms of obedience. The gods commanded, and we did obey, always. Always.”

“Except for that day,” Eshonai said along with her mother, in rhythm.

“The day of the storm when the Last Legion fled,” Mother continued in song. “Difficult was the path chosen. Warriors, touched by the gods, our only choice to seek dullness of mind. A crippling that brought freedom.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 201). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

The day of the storm definitely sounds the like the day that the plan was put into action. We know that the listeners use highstorms in modern times to change forms. We know that Voidbringers didn't change forms using the storm in previous Desolations from Jasnah. The song describes it as the farthest place, and them as the last legion, so they just could have been the very last holdouts in the path of the storm. This is all speculation at this point, but we know nothing about the methods in which they unbound all the parshmen. I could even imagine an investiture sucking reverse everstorm that travelled the same path, the reverse of the highstorms, and so the Last Legion was able to flee into an oncoming highstorm and make the change before it was forced on them. That's all highly speculative. Looking back over the song though, it does seem to point out that the plains were pre-shattered before the Last Legion was sent there. 

 

38 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Additionally, the Last Legion were a collection of warring tribes for quite some time before moving to the Shattered Plains. Just extra timeline details, doesn't really shoot down any of your theory on it's own.

3

I'm not quite so sure that's what this implies. Here's the quoted source material:

Quote

E. HYDE

I asked if assassination is common among the Parshendi, since they have a tradition of what assassins are supposed to wear.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon said (and I'm paraphrasing) that the Parshendi are a lot more unified than they used to be, and back when they existed as a lot of separate tribes (he didn't say how long ago this was), raids and assassinations were a fairly regular thing.

1

And the Songs Eshonai's Mother sings directly states that this was all part of the plan. 

Quote

From there, Mother launched into one of the early songs, about how the people would make their home in the ruins of an abandoned kingdom. How they would spread out, act as simple tribes and refugees. It was their plan to remain hidden, or at least ignored.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 202). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

41 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ooh, here's a thought. An Order that would consider a preemptive strike as violating their oaths doesn't have to participate in it. So long as they don't carry out the action, they shouldn't break their oath. Does that sound reasonable?

That's highly subjective haha. There are certain lines that I would be unwilling to be a part of my company if I knew they were being crossed elsewhere, whether or not I participated in them. Other people might have a look the other way attitude. 

 

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

The risk of being discovered is rather high, and the Spren weren't exactly in the mood to bond more KR, so the Order that survived the Recreance would have died of old age centuries ago.

The only WoB I could find on Nahel Bonds and human lifespans was an RAFO from 2014. I'm not gonna rule that out just yet. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'm not quite so sure that's what this implies. Here's the quoted source material:

From the Coppermind: "Raids and assassinations were commonplace, and this later created norms as to how assassinations should have been carried out. These disparate listener tribes eventually unified and moved near the Shattered Plains."

That last phrase is where I got what I said from. It appears to be less accurate than I had thought. Unfortunate, but not surprising. Coppermind has been trying to update with the influx of new information for ages, so it's still a bit of a mess. It's of little consequence, as that was just additional details, rather than evidence against your theory.

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'm curious for your take on this quote, the pronoun usage is unclear: Is he saying that he's found remnants of listeners who can use the old forms hiding and they were able to summon voidspren from outside, or that the listeners were able to summon a cluster of voidspren because the Voidspren were able to hide on Roshar given the precedent that Nalan has found Voidspren hiding before? It seems a very important distinction which 'them' he's found remnants of hiding before. 

From a linguistic perspective, he should be saying that they've found Voidspren before, as they are mentioned closer to the "found before" line. If he were referring to the Listeners in the third statement, he should mention their name again.

I'll admit that I'd entirely forgotten Nalan said that, and originally I dismissed it as an excuse(There's no law against lying in casual conversations, so it'd be allowed). However, I have this WoB... and well, the possibility opens up. (I also realized that he called them Listeners. I guess Parshendi is an Modern Alethi Word...)

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

The only WoB I could find on Nahel Bonds and human lifespans was an RAFO from 2014. I'm not gonna rule that out just yet. 

Keep it on the table if you wish, but I really don't think a Nahel Bond is enough to expand someone's lifespan to two millennia. A couple hundred extra years, maybe, but a couple thousand? I don't buy it.

1 hour ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

That's highly subjective haha. There are certain lines that I would be unwilling to be a part of my company if I knew they were being crossed elsewhere, whether or not I participated in them. Other people might have a look the other way attitude.

Like every theory about the motivations behind the Recreance, we're gonna get into subjective territory. Assuming you were using company as the military term, I see the Orders as separate companies. This wouldn't a part of your company crossing lines you aren't willing to, this is a different company entirely crossing those lines. You'd still disapprove, but would that weigh just as heavily on your conscience as it would had it been part of your own company?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Like every theory about the motivations behind the Recreance, we're gonna get into subjective territory. Assuming you were using company as the military term, I see the Orders as separate companies. This wouldn't a part of your company crossing lines you aren't willing to, this is a different company entirely crossing those lines. You'd still disapprove, but would that weigh just as heavily on your conscience as it would had it been part of your own company?

I meant more real-world equivalent. For instance, intentional medicare fraud since I'm in a private ambulance company. Even if I was kept in the dark, if I found out about it, it would be a spoiler for me. I think it would come down to individual viewpoints here. I kind of feel as though the Knights Radiant are separate departments in the same organization. To quote the source material, "...the thumb might think it has very little in common with the pinky. But with Proper perspective, it is realized that the fingers are part of something larger. That indeed, they are One."

Edited November 13, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[The One Who Connects]

10 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I meant more real-world equivalent. For instance, intentional medicare fraud since I'm in a private ambulance company.

I've gotten too used to the words "corporation" and "business." My first thought when I see company is gonna be the military term, and then correct myself as context allows(which it didn't this time, since we were talking about a preemptive strike before)

12 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I kind of feel as though the Knights Radiant are separate departments in the same organization. To quote the source material, "...the thumb might think it has very little in common with the pinky. But with Proper perspective, it is realized that the fingers are part of something larger. That indeed, they are One."

Fingers are connected to each other via the hand. I guess I just see the KR as more separate than that. For instance, your hands are connected to each other too, but a few steps removed (hands, arms, chest). It gets even more removed when you move to people, since they aren't physically connected. Everyone in the world is connected in some way (be it same city, same country, same planet, etc..), but it all depends on how far back that common ground goes.

In lieu of a physical connection, it should go to other connections. Multiple departments of the same business are still bound by the same business rules, but the First Ideal is more malleable than that. Multiple platoons are part of the same company with the same commander, but the KR Orders feel less unified than that. I just can't find the proper common ground to start working from.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

In lieu of a physical connection, it should go to other connections. Multiple departments of the same business are still bound by the same business rules, but the First Ideal is more malleable than that. Multiple platoons are part of the same company with the same commander, but the KR Orders feel less unified than that. I just can't find the proper common ground to start working from.

This is the only reason I disagree with you.

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

1

 

[The One Who Connects]

40 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This is the only reason I disagree with you.

Given your usage of that entry, I am forced to assume you are talking about the Oaths.(more on this at the bottom)

The Oaths are Order Specific. It's like ten different business with entirely different rules being part of the same corporation. The common ground between them feels thin. (I could cast parallels to the UN, but I know better than to get political)

---

It's also fun looking back at that quote, since Ishar didn't need to "understand" anything. The events preceding Nohadon's Desolation and the ensuing carnage laid it out for him quite plainly.

Quote

Alakavish was a Surgebinder during the time of Nohadon on Roshar.

He brought the world to war before the Desolation.

“    Alakavish was a Surgebinder and yet the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. ”

—Nohadon on Alakavish and the Nahel bond

---

He[Dalinar] talks with a man with a regal bearing, who Dalinar later realizes must be a younger Nohadon, writer of The Way of Kings. A Desolation has just ended, and 90% of the people Nohadon ruled are dead. Some of those still alive try to cast blame on the Surgebinder Alakavish , who began a war just before the Desolation started.

As the man said "Alas, not all Spren are as discerning as Honorspren."

---

On the subject of what Ishar did. I'm a little more.. uncertain that the Oaths are because of him than I was a while back. I'm putting the whole thing in a spoiler tag so it doesn't derail the discussion as much.

Spoiler

To Quote Oversleep(twice):

Quote

I am very much against that whole thing about Ishar making Oaths. It makes zero sense and that epigraph is talking about something else entirely:

Quote

But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

is him just making organization. No more rogue Surgebinders scattered around the globe. Now we're making you into Orders with hierarchy so that you could operate more efficiently (many great warriors scattered around is nothing to be afraid of; but a military force? That's something very effective, as Romans and their legions taught us). Furthermore they agreed to be bound by external laws - so that they are not above the laws of other kingdoms.

---

And the explanation that a human could just rewrite how magic works when even Shards have limited ability to make changes in their magic (and that was a planet which was made by them and they had more leeway) has never made any sense to me.

(Mistborn Era Two)

Spoiler

Even Harmony with all his power on an engineered world could not get rid of Snapping. He managed to lower the threshold but not get rid of it.

I just don't buy that anyone - not even Honor and Cultivation themselves - could make such big changes in the magic.

Extesian offers an interesting take on the subject which could work, but it's still something under a bit of debate.

Quote

The magic system is based on Honor. Honor is (probably) based on doing what you’ll say you’ll do, at the very least. I think Ishar got the spren and the Radiants (or one, doesn’t really matter) to agree to be bound, and that agreement was then magically enforced. This is also consistent with the spren referring to prohibitions on giving proto-Radiants too much information (e.g. just telling them the Oaths, or telling them they can be a Shardblade). It’s not changing the system. It’s creating binding oaths within the system.

Nale says that without Honor around to regulate the Oaths, men could discover the greater power of them. Whether or not he’s right, maybe this is evidence for this form of magically enforced bond. Tanavast was able to actually enforce the agreement pushed by Ishar. The worry is that now Tanavast is gone, and no intelligence is controlling Honor, those Oaths are no longer magically enforced.

Edited November 13, 2017 by The One Who Connects
excess white lines

[Fifth of Daybreak]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

On the subject of what Ishar did. I'm a little more.. uncertain that the Oaths are because of him than I was a while back. I'm putting the whole thing in a spoiler tag so it doesn't derail the discussion as much.

From what I understand Nohadon and the in-world Way of Kings were responsible for shaping the Oaths. That's what gives the impression that the first Ideal is less malleable than they are. The philosophies presented in those parables aren't incredibly varied in their interpretations in my opinion. 

Quote

"...There was some old king who came up with all this. Had his wife write it in a book or something. My mother read it. The Radiants based the Ideals on what was written there.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 831-832). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

[The One Who Connects]

18 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

"...There was some old king who came up with all this. Had his wife write it in a book or something. My mother read it. The Radiants based the Ideals on what was written there.”

Is that a quote from Teft? (I've no clue who said that, but that sounds like him.)

18 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

From what I understand Nohadon and the in-world Way of Kings were responsible for shaping the Oaths.

I'll link any useful things from some past threads once I find them. (Might take a while, that discussion topic is an old one)

18 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

That's what gives the impression that the first Ideal is less malleable than they are.

You might be the first to say something to that effect, and you've piqued my curiosity. Care to elaborate on this?

[Salkara]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Is that a quote from Teft? (I've no clue who said that, but that sounds like him.)

 

Yes. It's from TWoK, right around the time that Kaladin first finds out what he's doing iirc.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

 

You might be the first to say something to that effect, and you've piqued my curiosity. Care to elaborate on this?

It kind of makes sense right? The First Ideal is the same across all Orders, so there's obviously a greater emphasis on it. Moreover, some orders seem to care a lot less about the following oaths. Lightweavers speak different truths. Szeth got to make up his own Third Ideal for the Skybreakers. Teft's Third Ideal was materially different from Kaladin's. Yet, they all have the exact same First Ideal.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Salkara

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Is that a quote from Teft? (I've no clue who said that, but that sounds like him.)

I'll link any useful things from some past threads once I find them. (Might take a while, that discussion topic is an old one)

You might be the first to say something to that effect, and you've piqued my curiosity. Care to elaborate on this?

It's a Teft quote. it directly follows the one where he describes the first ideals. Aside from Jasnah, Teft is the only one who is presented as knowledgeable on the subject on screen, and he tells us that the ideals were based off of the writings of a king that information leads us to believe is Nohadon. All of the stories that Dalinar quotes aren't as broadly cast as the stories that Hoid tells where there are multiple layers that can be picked apart depending on what's on the listeners mind. You can tell Nohadon had a philosophy he's trying to teach, and it's one that's a running theme throughout the IRL WoK as the Windrunners book: strength is a privilege to be used to help others, not a right to be used selfishly.

 

I guess the more I think about it the less I think that the WoB about Machiavellian's has any bearing whatsoever on the orders or the first ideal. Until we get down to brass tax and start to specify, Brandon could come up with a thousand scenarios where they could fit into an order. All that person would have to do is justify the ends of getting a Radiants power through the means of being inscrutably dedicated to whatever ideals that order is drawn to. I hate the idea that we're throwing away two large set pieces in the form of Dalinar's vision and the in universe WoK, along with the only on-screen description of the basic foundation of the Knights Radiant's philosophy. It seems to me that the first ideal is that end, and the means each individual is willing to justify will determine to what order they belong.

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[The One Who Connects]

13 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

It seems to me that the first ideal is that end, and the means each individual is willing to justify will determine to what order they belong.

Ah. I originally thought you were implying that the First ideal was less open to differing interpretations than the other Ideals. Which I would have disagreed with given the ideals we currently knew at that point. Now that I see what you're trying to say.. I like that idea, but still feel like we'll need to see more about the Orders before I'm fully on board.

21 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I hate the idea that we're throwing away two large set pieces in the form of Dalinar's vision and the in universe WoK, along with the only on-screen description of the basic foundation of the Knights Radiant's philosophy.

And now I'm confused again. Teft's Description is noted. The Ishar bit from Nohadon's WoK is noted. What happened in Dalinar's Visions? Oh right, Nohadon himself.

---

I've just perused the vision with Nohadon, and there's some... interesting things that we on the forums never seem to talk about...
Don't know how relevant any of this will be, but this is what stuck out.

• "[ceiling] carved from the rock in geometric patterns that looked faintly familiar. Circles connected by lines, spreading outward from one another..."
  • Perhaps not the KR symbol, since Dalinar recognizes that shortly thereafter later. Also, we're in Kholinar. What happened to this building?
• Nohadon's "crown" appears to be thread woven into his hair, something I never picked up on before. His crown comes together into the symbol of the Knight's Radiant, although how that was done is beyond my ability to visualize.
  • It reminds me of the crowns Vedel and Jezrien bear in their endpaper artwork, with the symbols of their respective orders on them. I'm curious about both the in-world and real-life inspirations for that design decision.
• "They say that each time is the same. We are never ready for the Desolations."
  • So.. this is at least the Third Desolation? (His plurality strikes me as "greater than two," but I'm not sure why)
• The Ideals do not appear to be around at the time of Nohadon's Desolation. If they are, they are much less strict than they appear to be now, as Alakavish shows.
• Also, "Surgebinder." Potential implications about the timeline of when "Radiant" became the chosen title.
  • Why Surgebinder though? The origins of this term seem important. (Have any Nahel Spren used the word "Surge" before?)
• "I don't know if we can force them[Surgebinders] to do anything."  Proof that the KR saw themselves as above the law?
• Nohadon uses the phrase "Nahel Bond" more than once. Who else has used this phrase before?
• "Perhaps our abilities are proof of a divine election."  Is this implying that Nohadon and Karm were Surgebinders?
• "When the Heralds next return, [..] will they find a people who have forgotten them yet again?"  Curious... our timelines place the Desolations around 4 centuries apart, and they've forgotten the Heralds already.
  • It's been 4 millennia now and the Heralds are remembered, if not recognized. What changed?
• "If we continue as we have, then perhaps we deserve to lose."  Cheery chap. You sure he wrote such a positive book?
• Famed historical figures were given holy names by the church. Makes sense, but presumably he wrote tWoK before the Church gave him that holy name.
  • What name might the book's author be listed as? Perhaps that's a question for Brandon.
• "There are princes, kings, Soulcasters, Surgebinders. We never lack men and women who wish to lead."
  • Soulcasters deciding they were qualified to lead? This is.. interesting, especially during the time of Surgebinders, making the Soulcasters less unique.
• "Man of letters."  Scribe(verb) exists back then, so I feel Scribe(profession) should be in use too.
• "He hadn't heard the Highstorm approaching.  [.....]  The voice that often spoke in his visions did not come."
  • Suspicious, Convenient, or Other?

I really wish this was more organized. Doesn't look too bad on a phone screen, but on a proper monitor...

[Fifth of Daybreak]

@The One Who Connects You've definitely raised a lot of good points here (can't complain about organization until I'm home from work and back to my cpu tomorrow  looks good on mobile like you said.)

 

Mind if we table this discussion until I can read a little further in OB? I'm making what progress I can between calls today and am almost through part two and it definitely seems like we're getting lots of relevant information. If I haven't made a lot of progress end of the day tomorrow I'll come back to this topic at least do research on some of the points you've raised such as asking about spren and surges. (I think Pattern mentions it to Shallan when he suggests she should have her illusions speak for themselves. Something about sounds being related to the surge of illumination.)

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Mind if we table this discussion until I can read a little further in OB?

I don't have OB yet, so it's not like I've got knowledge you don't. But yea, sure. If there's a definitive shutdown to one of the discussion points in OB, by all means bring it up.

But I was gonna pick up my little sister from school in a bit anyway, so tabling the discussion is fine with me.

2 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

such as asking about spren and surges. (I think Pattern mentions it to Shallan when he suggests she should have her illusions speak for themselves. Something about sounds being related to the surge of illumination.

I didn't ask about the Surges so much as the word "Surge" itself. There's a distinction between utilizing "the power of Illumination" and utilizing "the Surge of Illumination."

The former implies that Illumination is the actual name for the power, rather than the given name. The latter implies the same about "Surge," which in my mind is a more important distinction. These are fundamental forces(kinda). Calling it the Force of Gravitation sounds fine. So I wonder where "Surge" came from.

11 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

can't complain about organization until I'm home from work and back to my cpu

On mobile, bullet point indents are more noticeable. On pc, it looks too much like a textwall for my tastes.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

54 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I didn't ask about the Surges so much as the word "Surge" itself. There's a distinction between utilizing "the power of Illumination" and utilizing "the Surge of Illumination."

Yes, I understood the question. 

Quote

“You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.”

WoR 20 Coldness of Clarity

“This is a Surge,” Pattern said. “Sound is a part of it. Mmm . . . Cousins of one another. Very similar. It can be done.”

54 Veil's Lesson

 

[Steeldancer]

Well I feel very underwhelmed by the reason. 

[Seloun]

2 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Well I feel very underwhelmed by the reason. 

The given reason... doesn't really make any sense, or at least loses a huge amount of impact from the perspective of the reader given Kaladin's experiences earlier in the book. Even without knowing the 'reason', Kaladin is already looking to find a way to live peacefully with the Parshmen; knowing the truth about which side is native doesn't really seem to change anything. And regardless if the reason was sufficiently compelling, it's unclear why it would provoke the sort of reaction we see from the KR at Feverstone.

What's also strange is how Nale seems to interpret it. The Stormfather says that the Recreance was not the first time this came up:

Quote

In the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now?

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1052). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So it's really hard to imagine that Nale didn't know about it before the Recreance (I guess it's theoretically possible?). So why wasn't he working with the Listeners long before? Did he really only find out during the Recreance, or is this another aspect of his madness? I suppose Nale (and other Heralds?) could have triggered the Recreance due to his madness getting worse and coming to a new conclusion, though it still seems pretty flimsy.

It is worth noting that the Stormfather does say his memories of the Recreance (and anything before) is hazy (which makes me wonder how he knew Honor had dealt with this problem before). So it's possible he's missing some nuance, especially since his understanding of human reasoning seems pretty vague in the first place (getting better with the bond).

Given that the Fused seem to require regular Parshman/Parshendi to possess for their immortality, I suppose one potential solution would have been to make sure there aren't candidates to possess (i.e. genocide). If it turns out that Honor or the Heralds were pushing for this solution (which presumably would mean the Heralds would no longer have to seal themselves with the Fused) perhaps that may have been the bridge too far. Before the last Desolation and the breaking of the Heralds, presumably they weren't looking for such a drastic solution.

Regardless, it seems like there must be more nuance to the story, or it's a pretty anticlimactic reveal to something built up for the entire series.

[Shadowmancer]

15 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Well I feel very underwhelmed by the reason. 

I'm tempted to keep holding onto my own theory, that Roshar was used as bait to keep Odium occupied, but I don't think this is the reason for the Recreance anymore.

I thought the revelation was huge but, there didn't seem to be a good reason to me, either. Maybe the kicker was that they had always considered themselves on the right side until they found out they weren't. Except they were, because somewhere along the way the humans and listeners swapped gods.

Messy, messy.