[OB] Shallan, the lie.

[Calderis]

So trying to go through my reread and blast through what I have left of WoR and kick through Edgedancer... I came across this paragraph that, after the preview chapters became much much more meaningful. 

Pattern had just confronted her about how she needs to remember and become more than she is and Shallan has her breakdown, and conjures an image of herself huddled on the bed useless and afraid of everything followed by this. 

Quote

That was the Real Shallan. She knew it as surely as she knew her own name. The person she had become was a lie, one she fabricated in the name of survival. To remember herself as a child, discovering Light in the gardens, Patterns in the stonework, and dreams that became real... 

Shallan, the Shallan we know, is as much a fabrication as Veil or Radiant. 

The real Shallan hasn't faced the world since she was the near comatose child we saw in her flashbacks. 

[Argent]

I don't know if this is profound or obvious. We know Shallan hasn't dealt with either one of her parents' deaths, so anything she becomes, anything she does, it all has those murders looming in the background. There is, however, also an argument to be made that once you pretend something for long enough, it becomes truth. In Cosmere terms, that girl, the one who "could not laugh, for laughter had been squeezed from her by a childhood of darkness and pain", is Shallan's Spiritual aspect, while the person she has become is her Cognitive one. And we know that these tug-of-war kind of conflicts can go either way - she can fully embrace the person she has become, the person who can laugh and enjoy life, or she can let her true self come up, and she can try to deal with it. 

[Calderis]

@Argent I don't disagree. I think it's about acceptance at this point. Shallan can embrace who she's become and it will be true, but she doesn't.

For her, it's a matter of perception. As long as she rejects herself, her memories, the speculation of her losing herself to her personas has already happened. 

I would still think that she's the Shallan we know if not for the line in her mind before descending to confront Re-Shephir where she says something along the lines of "but that's the real you isn't it? Why do you need to paint that face on?" 

[+Extesian]

I agree and am sure this is the biggest truth she has left. Reminds me of this (though he may not have meant that)

Quote

‘Veil is the false identity, Mraize,’ Shallan said. ‘I am me.’ He inspected her. ‘I think not.’

But mostly I'd thought the same thing because of Pattern repeatedly saying things like this

Quote

"This isn’t the lie.” His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?”

 

[Oversleep]

So... who else thinks the dark drawings Shallan does not remember, the ones that Ben said they were harder to do, were made by the real Shallan?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Oversleep

[Ciridae]

4 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

the ones that Isaac said they were different to do,

He did? I must have missed that. So those are illustrations we'll get for sure?

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

So... who else thinks the dark drawings Shallan does not remember, the ones that Ben said they were harder to do, were made by the real Shallan?

Why would real Shallan do that though? They pictured stuff she hadn't even seen before then. Unless Re-Shepir could use her depression in order to hijack her and make her draw dead horses.

Also, Pattern doesn't know where they came from.

[Harbour]

In before the real Shallan is broken technically mentally dead girl who somehow created an illusion of redhead healthy girl and her absurd dark drawings are the result of sudden splashes of brain activity. Like the drawing of mentally ill people that doesnt make sense. Shallan lies so good that even managed to deceive own mind. In chocking twist she will realize that the real Shallan is broken mentally ill girl and Shallan we always knew is just the manifestation of her powers. Well, scary idea.

[kari-no-sugata]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Argent I don't disagree. I think it's about acceptance at this point. Shallan can embrace who she's become and it will be true, but she doesn't.

For her, it's a matter of perception. As long as she rejects herself, her memories, the speculation of her losing herself to her personas has already happened. 

I would still think that she's the Shallan we know if not for the line in her mind before descending to confront Re-Shephir where she says something along the lines of "but that's the real you isn't it? Why do you need to paint that face on?" 

Regarding the last part, I thought the opposite. The fact that Shallan resists being treated like a persona is a sign that she isn't, I thought.

Putting it another way, I think it's more likely that Shallan thinks she's a persona when she isn't than the other way around.

The Shallan we see develops and changes like a real person. So I don't think she's a persona.

[Justice]

I think the deeper truth is that they are all lies, all parts of her that emerge in different situations for different needs. She needs to embrace the girl who couldn’t laugh as part of who she is, stop burying it and let it live alongside the many other people she has been and will need to be. 

This allows her to both confront the horrible past but doesn’t fall into a mental health stereotype. 

[Aminar]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

So trying to go through my reread and blast through what I have left of WoR and kick through Edgedancer... I came across this paragraph that, after the preview chapters became much much more meaningful. 

Pattern had just confronted her about how she needs to remember and become more than she is and Shallan has her breakdown, and conjures an image of herself huddled on the bed useless and afraid of everything followed by this. 

Shallan, the Shallan we know, is as much a fabrication as Veil or Radiant. 

The real Shallan hasn't faced the world since she was the near comatose child we saw in her flashbacks. 

This is a common thing in people suffering from mental illness. They see the real them as a person without the struggles or trauma. Coming to accept this isn't true is one of the biggest hurdles in getting people through treatment. So good on Brandon for really getting into the meat of what PTSD feels like.

[bo.montier]

@Calderis I noticed that on my last read-through as well. What this all points to me, assuming her arc bends towards healing, is that she will realize she gets to decide WHO she is, rather than that being determined for her by either her past or her surroundings. I think then she'll do away with the personas and just become herself, and disguises will be that, disguises, not whole personalities. Then she'll be able to disguise herself as anyone she wants, rather than having to lock herself into a personality. Her real personality will become strong, resilient, and flexible.

Edit: Or she could just not be able to face it and spiral...But i hope not.

Edited November 11, 2017 by bo.montier

[Gigalemesh]

1 hour ago, bo.montier said:

@Calderis I noticed that on my last read-through as well. What this all points to me, assuming her arc bends towards healing, is that she will realize she gets to decide WHO she is, rather than that being determined for her by either her past or her surroundings. I think then she'll do away with the personas and just become herself, and disguises will be that, disguises, not whole personalities. Then she'll be able to disguise herself as anyone she wants, rather than having to lock herself into a personality. Her real personality will become strong, resilient, and flexible.

Edit: Or she could just not be able to face it and spiral...But i hope not.

I'm also hoping that's where her character development leads, though who knows how long it will take. Hopefully she will at least start on that path properly in oathbringer, if not make a lot of progress 

[bo.montier]

Just now, Gigalemesh said:

I'm also hoping that's where her character development leads, though who knows how long it will take. Hopefully she will at least start on that path properly in oathbringer, if not make a lot of progress 

I'd like to see Kaladin, Shallan, & Dalinar kind of complete their redemptive arcs in this book, so the next book is about them leading others through it with the 5th book being the big showdown with Odium's champion. I don't know if that will happen or not, but it's what I'd like to see. From what has been released so far I don't think we'll get that far, but hopefully the progress made by each of them will be very significant.

[Jerich]

Are we sure that Shallan’s flashbacks were reliably narrated?  What if the Shallan persona is just one layer of the onion and the real Shallan is buried several identities deep?  Is it possible that she could be someone who used illusion to take over Shallan’s identity or even be something else like a Kandra, a world hopper, the leader of the ghost bloods, or even Shalash?

 

Perhaps the narration is reliable, but incomplete and Patterns real crime is that he convinced a light weaver to assume the identity of young Shallan and use light weaving to conceal the switch until she had grown old enough for looks to diverge.  Perhaps Shallan’s Mom attacked her because she realized the switch?

Anyway, that’s probably too crazy a theory:)

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Jerich
Added another paragraph

[Frostlander]

I just noticed this in the "No Mating Scene" when Adolin says that Shallan's ego doesn't count as a "separate individual" in the room. Shallan says:

Quote

“Ha! Wait. You think I have an ego?”

 

This is about her insecurity at first glance, but it could also be foreshadowing/trolling about her lack of a core persona from a psychoanalytical standpoint...

(Funny how I've started thinking of foreshadowing and trolling as the same things so often.)