Staphylococcus

[OB] A Theory on Odium's champion

35 posts in this topic

Prepare your tinfoil hats and bear with me.

So I found this little WoB on facebook: 

QUESTIONER:
Is Adolin and Shallan going to get together, or will Kaladin and Shallan?

BRANDON SANDERSON:
That is quite the question. I will eventually answer that, but you are getting Read-and-Find-Outed. It is intentionally a bit of a mimicry of something else that happened in the past.

[Source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34-arcanum-unbounded-seattle-signing/#e5903]

And it immediately made me (and other people, based on the comments) think of the Honor-Cultivation-Odium situation that supposedly happened. 

The obvious reaction to that would be that Shallan, as the female is Cultivation and Kaladin, having a HONORspren would be Honor...or would he?

Now let's look at this little blurb from the back of WoK:

There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar’s mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes.

The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key.

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

So the possibilities for Odium's champion are:

- Szeth (too obvious)

- Shallan (we already ruled that out)

- Dalinar (but it'd spoil his "redemption arc" with turning from being the blood-lusty Blackthorn to being the wise leader)

- Kaladin (who even based solely on this blurb I'd guess to be the Champion.)

So we have a proof that the "Darth Adolin" theory that became so popular, seeing him as the obvious choice for the Champion is pure chulldung as he's not even mentioned and if this "love triangle" is really supposed to mimic the situation with rosharan shards, we'll probably all cry for Kaladin. A lot.

Feel free to yell at me if you disagree or if this has been said before.

OB pre-released chapters spoilers hat (I think) back up Kaladin being the Odium's champion:

Spoiler

We saw that the sympathizes with the parshmen, a lot, and despite Syl thinking otherwise he doesn't like having to fight against them. I don't think he'll turn on the Alethi armies but I think him helping the parshmen and traveling with them even though he could have escaped anytime was very important for what's to come.

 

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About the mimikri:

That might refer to Brandon's tendency to marry young females from the country off to crown princes. I really hope he got over that by now, the recent developments in MB2 give me hope. 

So Shaladin should be ruled out as too clichéd. 

The rest of your argument depends on the backcover text actually referring to Odium's champion. "One of them will destroy us" might mean something else. 

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3 minutes ago, Dryone_2 said:

About the mimikri:

That might refer to Brandon's tendency to marry young females from the country off to crown princes. I really hope he got over that by now, the recent developments in MB2 give me hope. 

So Shaladin should be ruled out as too clichéd. 

The rest of your argument depends on the backcover text actually referring to Odium's champion. "One of them will destroy us" might mean something else. 

Ok, but I don't think it refers to that, I think it's something more important for the events on Roshar than things Brandon does in other stories.

And I honestly don't know what else might "one of them may destroy us" mean.

(But yeah. This is just a theory.)

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That mimicry is most probably Gavilar, Dailnar, Navani. 

Navani initially chose more handsome and refined Gavilar, and thought Dalinar was scary because of how passionate is.
Shallan is currently in relationship with handsome and refined Adolin, and thinks to herself that kaladin is scary.

 

I don't think it is honor, cultivation, odium at all. 

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4 minutes ago, Reborn radiant said:

That mimicry is most probably Gavilar, Dailnar, Navani. 

Navani initially chose more handsome and refined Gavilar, and thought Dalinar was scary because of how passionate is.
Shallan is currently in relationship with handsome and refined Adolin, and thinks to herself that kaladin is scary.

 

I don't think it is honor, cultivation, odium at all. 

Yes yes, many people say this, I just don't think it'd be important, or symbolic enough.

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Just now, Staphylococcus said:

Yes yes, many people say this, I just don't think it'd be important, or symbolic enough.

I don't think it needs to be that important or symbolic. From the way bran san says it, it feels like it's not going to be that much of a tenuous connection. The gavilar, navani, dalinar is way more obvious and has much more evidence so far. 

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1 minute ago, spirit said:

I think that when the blurb talks about "us " it's referring to the Aimians that being the group that wrote it  

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1182#19

 

I know aimians write them, I just think this one refers to all of Roshar, as aimians, on their own, aren't really significant for the story and probably won't be, at least in the 1st arc.

(But yeah, it has crossed my mind!)

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The mimicry is probably the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar love triangle and if this analogy is right, then Kaladin is Shallan's one true love. Adolin is just the guy she'll marry out of spite. I personally would hate to be right: Adolin deserves someone who loves him, not someone who marries him because she's too scarred of the someone she really loves. I can get behind Navani marrying Gavilar while loving Dalinar because Gavilar is unsympathetic, but doing it to Adolin?

This is wrong, plain wrong and I sincerely hope this isn't the road Brandon will take. Have her be with Kaladin if he's the one she loves and be gone with it, but stop making her play with as Adolin as if she were interested.

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3 minutes ago, maxal said:

The mimicry is probably the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar love triangle and if this analogy is right, then Kaladin is Shallan's one true love. Adolin is just the guy she'll marry out of spite. I personally would hate to be right: Adolin deserves someone who loves him, not someone who marries him because she's too scarred of the someone she really loves. I can get behind Navani marrying Gavilar while loving Dalinar because Gavilar is unsympathetic, but doing it to Adolin?

This is wrong, plain wrong and I sincerely hope this isn't the road Brandon will take. Have her be with Kaladin if he's the one she loves and be gone with it, but stop making her play with as Adolin as if she were interested.

See, this is exactly why I don't think it refers to Dalinar/Gavilar/Navani - because then it'd end up like this and that just doesn't seem like something Brandon would do. (And I think Shallan likes Adolin too much for it to be like this and also that Adolin is nothing like Gavilar.)

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8 minutes ago, Staphylococcus said:

See, this is exactly why I don't think it refers to Dalinar/Gavilar/Navani - because then it'd end up like this and that just doesn't seem like something Brandon would do. (And I think Shallan likes Adolin too much for it to be like this and also that Adolin is nothing like Gavilar.)

Yeah, but the term "mimicry"... It does lent us to think it is probably it.

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Or... what if it is mimicking Kaladin's childhood lovestory?

Perhaps Shallan does love Adolin but something KR related drives her to marry another KR? And since she likes Kaladin and it would hypothetically be beneficial to the KR she chooses/is forced to marry him.

As for the one that will 'destroy us', my money is on Dalinar. Szeth would be to simple; Kaladin would devistate everyone; Shallan is a possibility due to her instability and being prone to manipulation.

But Dalinar makes the most sense for me for the following:

He was already a berserking monstrosity.

He is getting blocked diplomatically which will lead to desperation and frustration.

Taravangian is in his life for a reason.

And he may lose Navani all over again causing him to lose his mind.

No matter who it is, I'm certain it will be both shocking and deliciously satisfying.

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

Yeah, but the term "mimicry"... It does lent us to think it is probably it.

I don't think the term mimicry specifies wthther it's the shards or Dalinavani.

47 minutes ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

Or... what if it is mimicking Kaladin's childhood lovestory?

Perhaps Shallan does love Adolin but something KR related drives her to marry another KR? And since she likes Kaladin and it would hypothetically be beneficial to the KR she chooses/is forced to marry him.

Interesting! Haven't thought of that!

(But I ship Shadolin too much, sorry :D )

48 minutes ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

 

But Dalinar makes the most sense for me for the following:

He was already a berserking monstrosity.

That's exactly the reason I DON'T think it would be him.

But Dalinar is my choice no.2!

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In the Wheel of Time, the Dragon Reborn is seen as someone who will destroy the world, and yet he's the savior. Even when not counting that Brandon Sanderson got a lot of inspiration from the Wheel of Time, it is still not much of a stretch that something similar will be at work here, where a person at the "good" side still causes a lot of suffering for the world. One could even argue that Dalinar pressing the Vengeance Pact is what caused the Desolation, as otherwise the Parshendi might not have tried out Stormform at all, let alone get everyone to take it up.

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Just a guess but something will occur to make Shallan think she is not good enough for Adolin, putting him up on some kind of pedestal because he’s not a radiant he wouldn’t be safe with her as she falls further into her disassociate state. This probably occurring almost simultaneously as Adolin speaks his first oath, with all of this occurring around an important event that “seals the deal” for one of the already introduced mains down the “path of good intentions” that ultimately culminates into one of them becoming Odium’s champion. My bet would be Shallan, due to the nine shadows hint...she’s already got three so far, perhaps more with her bout with midnighty mom in the underbelly of Urithiru...

Edited by Gixian
Words...
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11 hours ago, Staphylococcus said:

Shallan (we already ruled that out)

Any reason why this is ruled out?

Out of all people, she is one of the more morally ambiguous ones.

If Kaladin thinks killing Parshmen who are theoretically enemies to his kind is immoral, I just don't see how he could be the one destroying his own kind, which incidentally includes his own kid brother.

Dalinar at this point reverting to his old ways...may be but what's the point.

Szeth may be, especially if he believes that is his calling. His recent actions in Edgedancer though shows a mellowed person.

Out of all the people in question, it would be Shallan I would be looking to for being the person who can fall under the influence of Odium. Her backstory is horrible but is also a contrast in how other characters would behave in similar situation. Imagine if Kaladin was in Shallan's shoes, would he have killed his mum & dad? My bet would be he would have preferred death.

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1 minute ago, muco said:

Any reason why this is ruled out?

Out of all people, she is one of the more morally ambiguous ones.

If Kaladin thinks killing Parshmen who are theoretically enemies to his kind is immoral, I just don't see how he could be the one destroying his own kind, which incidentally includes his own kid brother.

Dalinar at this point reverting to his old ways...may be but what's the point.

Szeth may be, especially if he believes that is his calling. His recent actions in Edgedancer though shows a mellowed person.

Out of all the people in question, it would be Shallan I would be looking to for being the person who can fall under the influence of Odium. Her backstory is horrible but is also a contrast in how other characters would behave in similar situation. Imagine if Kaladin was in Shallan's shoes, would he have killed his mum & dad? My bet would be he would have preferred death.

I ruled Shallan out based on the love triangle thing. (No objective proof there, I know, lol.) But also Shallan and Pattern have the same view on morals, as opposed to Kal&Syl. I think Odium will manipulate Kal based on the fact that he already thinks the war and killing parshmen is wrong. I think Odium will propose to him a "solution" to all the problems and will slowly manipulate him into becoming his champion.

I seriously don't think Szeth is going evil again. Shallan has questionable morals but she knows what she wants and doesn't have misunderstandings with her spren. And Dalinar was already a crazy-murdery-guy in his past so I don't think that's happening either.

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Dalinar could very easily be manipulated into screwing everything up.

He's not good at politics, he trusts Taravangian too much, has no idea about Gavilar's efforts to start the desolation, and most importantly, I think he's misunderstanding Honor's instructions (as is Taravangian, tbf).

IMO, when Honor said "Unite Them", he was referring to Humans and Parshendi, not the Human kingdoms.  I think Kaladin's on his way to realizing this after part 1, and I could see him and Dalinar coming into conflict over this.  Kaladin sees the situation as being "We can reach the Parshmen before Odium claims them", while the warlord in Dalinar (and Mr.T) could see it as "The Parshmen aren't voidbringers yet... that means they're weak now, let's kill them"

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43 minutes ago, Patrick Star said:

Dalinar could very easily be manipulated into screwing everything up.

He's not good at politics, he trusts Taravangian too much, has no idea about Gavilar's efforts to start the desolation, and most importantly, I think he's misunderstanding Honor's instructions (as is Taravangian, tbf).

IMO, when Honor said "Unite Them", he was referring to Humans and Parshendi, not the Human kingdoms.  I think Kaladin's on his way to realizing this after part 1, and I could see him and Dalinar coming into conflict over this.  Kaladin sees the situation as being "We can reach the Parshmen before Odium claims them", while the warlord in Dalinar (and Mr.T) could see it as "The Parshmen aren't voidbringers yet... that means they're weak now, let's kill them"

Wow that actually makes a lot of sense! Thanks for this insight.

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2 hours ago, Staphylococcus said:

I think Odium will manipulate Kal based on the fact that he already thinks the war and killing parshmen is wrong. I think Odium will propose to him a "solution" to all the problems and will slowly manipulate him into becoming his champion.

As @muco mentioned above, I don't see Kaladin turning against humanity. Just because he can empathize with non-voidform parshmen/former slaves, doesn't mean that he'll stop protecting and empathizing with his own species. This would include turning his back on his parents and little brother, his fellow bridgemen, Dalinar and family, and everyone else he has worked so hard to protect. I think he'd be a poor champion for Odium if he is expected to harm anyone aside from full-on voidbringers.

I don't see any of these four characters being Odium's Champion, nor Adolin or any other secondary character. I think the champion will be a voidbringer, unmade, spren, or other non-human entity. There was a reference in the early chapters that made me think this, but I have forgotten it now. :ph34r: I plan to reread the chapters over the weekend and will look for the clues I picked up the first time.

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2 hours ago, Staphylococcus said:

I ruled Shallan out based on the love triangle thing. (No objective proof there, I know, lol.) But also Shallan and Pattern have the same view on morals, as opposed to Kal&Syl. I think Odium will manipulate Kal based on the fact that he already thinks the war and killing parshmen is wrong. I think Odium will propose to him a "solution" to all the problems and will slowly manipulate him into becoming his champion.

I seriously don't think Szeth is going evil again. Shallan has questionable morals but she knows what she wants and doesn't have misunderstandings with her spren. And Dalinar was already a crazy-murdery-guy in his past so I don't think that's happening either.

I would argue the exact opposite! Shallan has no idea what she wants and we see that from the personas she has created and all the mentions of her drawings as Shallan the girl, the mother, the wife, the scholar etc. She's in the process of accepting her trauma and finding herself. And I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say she doesn't have any misunderstandings with her spern, considering their bond is what led to the destruction of her family, but I won't go into all that here. I don't think Shallan will go full Odium champion, but she's definetely not the most stable one and she wanders some murky waters.. 

I highly doubt it will be Kaladin as well. I don't necessarily belive in an Anakin Skywalker situation when it comes to Odium's champion and I don't see Kaladin being tricked into something. As @muco said it would be ironic to be the one that brings destruction upon his people in order to save the Parshendi. I feel like the difference of opinions between Syl and Kal is something normal and should be adressed, because even if they are bonded, they are different entities and it's expected to not be on the same page always. My idea of this is that Syl, as "a little part of a god" (to quote her)  has been 'wired' (for lack of a better word) with a set of values, whereas Kal is more flexible when it comes to right or wrong because he is human and his idea(l)s could changed in time. To cut the long story short, I don't think their disagreements are proof or incentive for Kaladin to become Odium's champion. 

Edited by mariapapadia
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What if Kaladin becomes Odium's champion because he learns that all Odium wants to do is shatter Cultivation and then he will happily leave Roshar behind and trouble the inhabitants no more. If Odium leaves then the Voidspren are gone and humans and Parshendi have less reasons to fight. Win win, right?

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10 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

Dalinar could very easily be manipulated into screwing everything up.

He's not good at politics, he trusts Taravangian too much, has no idea about Gavilar's efforts to start the desolation, and most importantly, I think he's misunderstanding Honor's instructions (as is Taravangian, tbf).

IMO, when Honor said "Unite Them", he was referring to Humans and Parshendi, not the Human kingdoms.  I think Kaladin's on his way to realizing this after part 1, and I could see him and Dalinar coming into conflict over this.  Kaladin sees the situation as being "We can reach the Parshmen before Odium claims them", while the warlord in Dalinar (and Mr.T) could see it as "The Parshmen aren't voidbringers yet... that means they're weak now, let's kill them"

This I could get into. I don't think anyone of these would willingly become Odium's champion, as I argued before, but I could see Dalinar causing a lot of destruction this way while thinking he's doing what he can to fight Odium.

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45 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

What if Kaladin becomes Odium's champion because he learns that all Odium wants to do is shatter Cultivation and then he will happily leave Roshar behind and trouble the inhabitants no more. If Odium leaves then the Voidspren are gone and humans and Parshendi have less reasons to fight. Win win, right?

Yes, this is basically what I thought by Odium manipulating him - I think Odium would tell him something like this. But wouldn't leave after shattering Cultivation.

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The Aimians are not necessarily good. Destroying them might not be so bad as to destroy Dalinar’s redemption arc. We just don’t know much about them yet. Odium’s champion might try to save the Aimians. After all, Axies(? Guy who searches for eg beer/drunk Spren) tells the crazy guy with the miniature city that he is a voidbringer pretty casually.

Also the back of the book Aimians disagree with the edge dancer one about the importance of Lift, which leads me to think even they don’t know everything. 

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